list is for discussion of new versions
of Python.
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"It is easier to optimize correct code than to correct optimized code."
--Bill Harlan
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e a report on bugs.python.org -- that's the only way we have to
track things.
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Adopt A Process -- stop killing all your children!
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Python
x for x in range(100) if not f(x))
> [0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5]
>
> Certainly, it's an inconsistency compared to generator expressions,
> but is it a bug?
Dunno whether it's a bug, but please file a bug report to track this
--
Aahz ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) <*> h
On Sat, Jun 21, 2008, Linda W. wrote:
>
> This isn't meant to stir controversy -- I'm more curious than anything else.
This is the wrong place for this discussion. Please use comp.lang.python
(gateway of python-list).
--
Aahz ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) <*> http
~/Erlang and a $PATH as long as
>>my arm just so I can run a few applications without system-
>>installing them.
>
> I hate to send a "me too" messages, but I have to say Glyph is exactly
> right here.
+1
--
Aahz ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) <*> http
On Thu, May 01, 2008, Guido van Rossum wrote:
> On Thu, May 1, 2008 at 7:25 AM, Aahz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>
>> Actually, the primary application I'm thinking of is a CGI that displays
>> part of a directory listing (paged) for manual processing of individ
f individual
files.
> So the question really is whether it is a problem to keep all file
> names in memory simultaneously. As Aahz says, the total memory
> consumption for a large directory is still comparatively low, for
> today's machines.
Only for a single process. Throw t
s some directories with several
hundred thousand entries, so using an iterator would be appreciated
(although by the time we upgrade to Python 3.x, we probably will have
fixed that architecture).
But even then, we're talking tens of megabytes at worst, so it's not a
killer -- just painful
On Tue, Mar 18, 2008, Ronald Oussoren wrote:
> On 18 Mar, 2008, at 16:49, Aahz wrote:
>>On Tue, Mar 18, 2008, "Martin v. L?wis" wrote:
>>>
>>>When I do a relative star import, I current get
>>>
>>>SyntaxError: 'import *' not al
to use "from *" at all. I
don't have time right now to find the discussion, but I can do that later
if you want.
> Is it ok to remove it?
As always, that's up to Guido.
--
Aahz ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/
&qu
7;t particularly like your suggestions for modifying the result of
breakpoint() (note that Facundo wants to use gdb). Why not simply
inject set_trace() into the builtins in your startup code? You can
control whether it gets injected with a DEBUG env var or something.
--
Aahz ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
On Mon, Feb 11, 2008, Greg Ewing wrote:
> Aahz wrote:
>>
>> Let's suppose you have an object that represents an order. And let's
>> suppose that this object needs to be copied to create a re-order (letting
>> the customer preserve the information from the
rder be created without copy(), and especially
deepcopy()? What if an attribute of orders can be a list or dict?
--
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"All problems in computer science can be solved by another level of
indirection."
recently, your argument has revolved around the fact that you don't
want tuples used as a "poor man's list" -- they are intended to be used
for heterogeneous data. (Assuming I'm rephrasing you correctly.)
(My purpose in poking you is to get better at channeling you rather
The O'Reilly Open Source Convention (OSCON) is accepting proposals for
tutorials and presentations. The submission period ends Feb 4.
OSCON 2008 will be in Portland, Oregon July 21-25. For more information
and to submit a proposal, see
http://conferences.oreilly.com/oscon/
--
Aahz ([
4567890))
'1.2345678901234567e+69'
Overall, I could care less what decision gets made, but I think it's
unfair to make the decision on an incorrect argument.
--
Aahz ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/
"All problems in computer sc
ed out, there are trade-offs with every breakage, and some
changes are deemed just too radical.
More to the point: the focus on breakage is removing old idioms that are
considered language cruft even in Python 2.x. {} as a dict literal is
not cruft.
--
Aahz ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) <*>
o include pickle or cPickle.
While it's easy enough to work around, my company would be unhappy if
pickle were removed, and so would my previous company.
--
Aahz ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/
"All problems in computer science can be solv
The O'Reilly Open Source Convention (OSCON) is accepting proposals for
tutorials and presentations. The submission period ends Feb 4.
OSCON 2008 will be in Portland, Oregon July 21-25. For more information
and to submit a proposal, see
http://conferences.oreilly.com/oscon/
--
Aahz ([
The O'Reilly Open Source Convention (OSCON) is accepting proposals for
tutorials and presentations. The submission period ends Feb 4.
OSCON 2008 will be in Portland, Oregon July 21-25. For more information
and to submit a proposal, see
http://conferences.oreilly.com/oscon/
--
Aahz ([
g to advocate for retaining them, I see them as
mildly useful for logging purposes (especially qsize()).
--
Aahz ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/
Weinberg's Second Law: If builders built buildings the way programmers wrote
programs, then the firs
should handle that? (Although I still like the
idea of a .round() method for decimals, I think that round(Decimal()) is
probably sufficient enough that I won't insist on it.)
--
Aahz ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) <*> http://www.pythoncraf
On Sun, Dec 23, 2007, Tomy novella wrote:
>
> I think it would be great if C style(/* */) and C++ style(//)
> comments appeared in python3000.
This kind of discussion would be better on python-ideas.
--
Aahz ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/
&
best name would be for such an ABC but I don't remember the conclusion
> reached.
Guido said ByteSequence for the bytes, so MutableByteSequence?
--
Aahz ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/
"Typing is cheap. Thinking is expensive." --Roy Sm
t;less than", then why define a cmp() function at all?
>From my perspective, the real use case for cmp() is when you want to do
a three-way comparison of a "large" object (for example, a Decimal
instance). You can store the result of cmp() and then do a
rary, so it probably should exist as a standalone
extension first. This mailing list is probably not the right place for
discussion, either.
--
Aahz ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/
The best way to get information on Usenet is not to ask a question,
e...
That's why people keep arguing for an immutable bytes types. I keep
seeing long discussions that end up with a tortured mechanism for making
the keys unicode. Why don't we just bite the bullet and make things
easier and have the immutable bytes type?
--
Aahz ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
They can easily roundtrip that then to the encoding that it should have:
>
> good_string = sys.argv[bad_string_index].\
>encode(sys.argv_encoding, "pua-replace").decode(real_encoding)
That doesn't count as "easily" in my book. What about a sys._argv_orig
cont
out what the thread is about.
--
Aahz ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/
"Many customs in this life persist because they ease friction and promote
productivity as a result of universal agreement, and whether they are
precisely the optimal choices i
On Tue, Sep 04, 2007, Thomas Wouters wrote:
>
> Merging is sometimes hard, but always fun. Well, challenging. A
> Chinese kind of interesting time.
Not so Chinese, actually:
http://www.noblenet.org/reference/inter.htm
--
Aahz ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) <*> http://www.
On Sun, Aug 26, 2007, Neil Schemenauer wrote:
> Aahz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>
>> -0 on the idea of making "batteries included" include PyPI packages.
>> Anything part of "batteries included" IMO should just be part of the
>> standard insta
On Sun, Aug 26, 2007, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> aahz> Please don't interpret a missing chorus of opposition as support.
> aahz> I'm only -0, but I definitely am negative on the idea based on my
> aahz> guess about the likelihood of problems.
>
>
quot; and does not
move closer to a "sumo" philosophy. I do think a separate sumo
distribution might make sense if someone wants to drive it.
--
Aahz ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/
"If you don't know what your program is suppose
e likelihood of problems.
(OTOH, I have no opinion about temporarily removing the email package
for a1 -- though I'm tempted to suggest we call it a0 instead.)
--
Aahz ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/
&quo
in terms of, say, __lt__
> and __eq__?
No! The whole point of cmp() is to be able to make *one* call; this is
especially important for things like Decimal and NumPy.
--
Aahz ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/
"If you don't know what your prog
patch there.
--
Aahz ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/
"If you don't know what your program is supposed to do, you'd better not
start writing it." --Dijkstra
___
Python-3000 ma
. Even
when you exclude them, going through and finding the non-literals will
cause much pain, because we do use "%" for numeric purposes and because
our homebrew templating language uses "%" to indicate a variable.
--
Aahz ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) <*> http://w
plit(). Keep in mind that because split() generates a new string for
each line, that really does eat lots of memory, even if you switch to
10**6 instead of 10**9, which seems like a very common use case.
--
Aahz ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/
This is
ven as an argument in favor of Unicode
identifiers, I think Ivan's vote should be given extra weight.
--
Aahz ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/
"Look, it's your affair if you want to play with five people, but don't
go c
On Tue, May 29, 2007, Ivan Krsti?? wrote:
>
> Perl bypasses the issue by having split
> (http://perldoc.perl.org/functions/split.html) take a regex; I've only
> rarely used this for complex matches, though.
Then perhaps we should just point people at re.split()...
--
Aahz
/O.
My initial take was -1, but now that I see that the existing tutorial
introduces modules before it discusses files, I'm only -0.
--
Aahz ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/
"Look, it's your affair if you want to play with five people, but d
I'm
+1 on that idea. I can see arguments in favor of leaving string, but
that name just has too much baggage.
--
Aahz ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/
"Look, it's your affair if you want to play with five people, but d
On Sun, May 13, 2007, "Martin v. L?wis" wrote:
>
> There are other, more serious cases of presentation ambiguity
> (e.g. tabs vs. spaces), yet nobody suggests to ban tabs from the
> language for that reason.
Well, I do. ;-)
--
Aahz ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
ts.
...which is why this discussion belongs on python-ideas.
--
Aahz ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/
"Look, it's your affair if you want to play with five people, but don't
go calling it doubles." --John Cleese anticipates Usenet
___
other keyword.
>
> But it's inconsistent with the way every other method is called.
But we also don't have any keywords with methods "attached". I don't
strongly favor Michele's approach, but it doesn't seem to me that there
are any stro
rgs, +1 for **kwargs
While I understand your reasoning, I still think that mismatched strings
and arguments is likely to be a significant problem; instead I favor
allowing this feature to be turned off.
> Feature: Exception raised if attribute with leading unders
rmat a
>> flag!
>
> I don't like it that much myself, either. I considered
> "extended_format" and a few others, but wasn't happy with any of them.
> Name suggestions are certainly welcome.
Why not just string.format()? There's precedence for module-le
On Tue, Mar 27, 2007, Frank Benkstein wrote:
>
> Comments? Should I try to wrap this up as a PEP?
You should try to start a discussion on either comp.lang.python or
python-ideas.
--
Aahz ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/
Need a book? Use
f.raw.read(200)
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"Typing is cheap. Thinking is expensive." --Roy Smith
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On Fri, Mar 23, 2007, Guido van Rossum wrote:
>
> I know this was in my early lists of "clean up the language" plans for
> Py3k, but I think it's not worth the hassle.
Should it be added to PEP 3099?
--
Aahz ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) <*> http://www.pyth
IIRC, there was some discussion about removing single-line blocks like
this one in 3.0:
if foo: bar()
However, I can't find any discussion about making it happen, and it's
not in PEP 3099. Guido, does this need a PEP? Do you want it to happen?
--
Aahz ([EMAIL
rt of a language-level protocol, and that a built-in function named
> ``next`` be introduced to invoke ``__next__`` method, consistent with
> the manner in which other protocols are explicitly invoked.
+1 -- I was always against next() in the first place. I'm +0 on
operator.next() relativ
ion proves itself as enormously popular, useful, understandable,
> and without a good equivalent, then it can ask for a promotion.
+1, and thank you for cogently writing up the unease that I was feeling
--
Aahz ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.c
On Thu, Feb 01, 2007, Larry Hastings wrote:
> Aahz wrote:
>>
>> While I don't have an opinion about the patch itself, I do have an
>> opinion about other people's opinions. ;-) That is, my opinion is that
>> unless you get a +1 from at least one of Fredrik,
er, though you should be focused on people with
commits in unicodeobject.c, and I'd recommend that Fredrik or MvL be on
that list regardless.)
--
Aahz ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/
"I disrespectfully agree." --SJM
_
* 2.x and
3.x to make it easier to figure out where features should go without
cross-posting.
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Help a hearing-impaired person: http://rule6.info/hearing.html
___
Python
patching, which "uncovers" the object is actually a proxy, rather
> than a real object.
This should go to python-ideas, I think
--
Aahz ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/
Help a hearing-impaired person: http://rule6.info/hearing.html
__
know if PyPy or IronPython use it for their set
> implementation.
>
> What do other people think?
I'm generally a fan of providing Python versions of C modules. It makes
Python more accesible to someone ramping up.
--
Aahz ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) <*> http
On Tue, Jan 09, 2007, Thomas Wouters wrote:
> On 1/9/07, Aahz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>
>>Hey! What's this about __cmp__?!
>
> Python 3.0x (p3yk:53295, Jan 8 2007, 09:32:17)
> [GCC 4.1.2 20061115 (prerelease) (Debian 4.1.1-21)] on linux2
> Type &quo
object code to warn when they're defined?
> I guess the latter would be more proactive. Or we could do both.
Hey! What's this about __cmp__?!
--
Aahz ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/
"Plus ca change, plus c'est la meme chose."
_
good opportunity to remind people where the action is.
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"I support family values -- Addams family values" --www.nancybuttons.com
___
Python-3000 maili
ble to build on top of that?
My recollection is that Larry said he could make it work with Unicode
with little difficulty -- I suspect he's either on vacation or ignoring
this thread, so I'm renaming and cc'ing him.
--
Aahz ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) <*> http://www.py
gt;> of the docs: a Python x.y set and a Python forever set.
>
> Hmm. I think a little bit of JavaScript would go a long way. ;-) After
> looking at the code for the HTML generation, I don't think that would be
> difficult to do at all.
Die, evil scum.
Signed, Lynx user.
-
t, intepreter
> sessions might look funky when copy & pasted inside mails.
While I feel your pain, I loathe the idea of updating all my doctests...
--
Aahz ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/
Usenet is not a democracy. It is a
n the current
> discussion.
But the whole point of making Guido BDFL was to codify his intuition WRT
language decisions. There's a reason why we here are using Python
instead of other languages, and as Guido himself has noted, often he
knows what the right decisions is
good mechanism for resolving the deadlock? We have the
primary maintainer (and some other users) claiming that distutils is a
mess that needs rewriting. You think it doesn't, but based on other
comments you've made, I believe you don't have available time. I hav
Did anyone else think "outies" and "innies" when reading the Subject:
line?
--
Aahz ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/
"If you don't know what your program is supposed to do, you'd
less-than-wizard programmers -- to warrant keeping __del__ around.
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= str(msg)
>logError(msg)
>raise msg
This code is guaranteed to fail in Python 3.0, of course, because string
exceptions aren't allowed. But your point is taken, I think.
--
Aahz ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com
On Mon, Sep 04, 2006, Oleg Broytmann wrote:
> On Sun, Sep 03, 2006 at 01:45:28PM -0700, Aahz wrote:
>>
>> You want to be able to read the file and write data to it. That argues
>> in favor of seek(0) and seek(-1) being the only supported behaviors,
>> though.
>
>
ite data to it. That argues
in favor of seek(0) and seek(-1) being the only supported behaviors,
though.
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I support the RKAB
___
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Python-3000@p
he values of the dict
>> alive as well as the keys, unlike the existing keys() method.
>
> Right; but I don't expect that such a keys() view will typically have
> a lifetime longer than the dict.
That's true only for newer code that correctly uses sets instead of
dicts -- but
gt; with an underscore.
>
> Hm... and perhaps we could forbid keyword arguments starting with an
> underscore in the call syntax?
Do you mean forbid by convention or syntactically? I'm -1 on the latter;
that would be far too much gratuitous code breakage.
--
Aahz ([EMAIL PROTECTE
eone else said that already, but I think it needs emphasis.)
--
Aahz ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/
"Debugging is twice as hard as writing the code in the first place.
Therefore, if you write the code as cleverly as possible, you are, by
definiti
xt week is rc1. We are right now in
complete feature lockdown; even documenting an existing API IMO requires
approval from the Release Manager.
--
Aahz ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/
"Debugging is twice as hard as writing the code in the first
I feel they seem much more
> readable, and allow better addition of more literal compilations (set
> literals are fixed then, for example). I know no one will like this,
> but I have to make the idea known anyway.
Could someone add this to the rejected proposals PEP?
--
Aahz ([EMAIL PR
g to be at Worldcon
instead -- dunno how many other people are in that boat.
--
Aahz ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/
"I saw `cout' being shifted "Hello world" times to the left and stopped
right there." --Steve Gonedes
__
t is
off-topic, but here's a Google search in case anyone wants proof ;-)
"learning breastfeeding"
Your previous comments that the critical characteristics are how easy an
interface is to remember and how easy it is to make appropriate guesses
about other uses of an interface
consistencies in casing
> ("StringIO, "cPickle", etc.), unnecessary distinctions ("thread" vs.
> "threading")...
So that you can use "http" as a name, of course. Some of the others you
list are historical accidents that probably will get fixed for Py3K.
--
this mindset as well. The fact that Python 2.x uses a tuple for
> *varargs has caused me to jump through a number of hoops in my own
> typecheck package.
This is a guideline, not a rule, and the speed and size of tuples make
them more appropriate for varargs.
--
Aahz ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
"better" is mostly defined in terms of ease of creating a decent
GUI application *in* *Python*.
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"Argue for your limitations, and sure enough they're yours." --Richard Bach
_
On Mon, May 08, 2006, Antoine Pitrou wrote:
> Le lundi 08 mai 2006 ? 07:13 -0700, Aahz a ?crit :
>>
>> Aside from Java and Swing (which has its own set of problems), is there
>> any readily-available GUI that includes a significant number of platforms
>> other than
d library.
Aside from Java and Swing (which has its own set of problems), is there
any readily-available GUI that includes a significant number of platforms
other than the Big Three?
--
Aahz ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/
t Tk automatically.
Secondly, your argument sounds like a variant of the argument against
adding pysqlite to the core, which I think has some technical merit but
little actual merit. A library can certainly be part of the core
distribution even if it has dependencies on external libraries
Timmy is jumping up and down and screaming for a
change. Granted, I think we should show respect for our numerical
elders, but I think Michael also has a point about the importance of
making floats and ints behave the same, especially given that division
will auto-promote floats from ints.
--
I think it is entirely reasonable to expect that a GUI toolkit
will at least make it straightforward to implement keyboard-based
commands.
--
Aahz ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/
"Argue for your limitations, and sure enough they're yours."
ary bottleneck for slow function
calls. Would you mind doing that before pushing a radical API change?
--
Aahz ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/
"Argue for your limitations, and sure enough they're yours." --Richard Bach
___
be fixed.
>>
>>+1 on this; I've thought this for a long time.
>
> Strong +1.
> This fixes a long-standing micro-wart.
-0
While I hate the way it looks, I never have gotten mixed up about the
order of arguments since switching to ''.join(l).
--
Aahz ([EMAIL PROTECTED]
at
removing dict literals (or list literals) counts as gratuitous breakage.
Losing listcomps won't be a big problem because they can be automatically
fixed and they aren't much loss.
--
Aahz ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/
"Argue for y
ject()
The biggest problem from my POV with widespread adoption of this
technique is that it doesn't play well with pickle. Perhaps someone
wants to take a whack at defining a more generic mechanism for sentinels?
--
Aahz ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.
The recent discussion about the with statement on python-dev reminded me
that at one point we talked about making chained exceptions automatic.
Could someone update PEP3100 to list chained exceptions as one of the
features that needs discussion?
--
Aahz ([EMAIL PROTECTED
it's currently a syntax error.
>
> To prevent more abominations like this, let me pronounce that I now
> like the single-star syntax:
>
> def foo(a, b, *, x=1, y=2): ...
So the way to get you to pronounce in favor of an abomination is to
suggest a worse abomination? ;-)
--
Aa
r y in a:
blah blah
How do we handle the cost of doing the typecheck in the second loop?
--
Aahz ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/
"Argue for your limitations, and sure enough they're yours." --Richard Bach
isely, we should probably just rename
urllib2 to urllib and copy the utility functions from urllib. Any other
modules that need similar treatment?
--
Aahz ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/
"LL YR VWL R BLNG T S"
__
t; And there are deep implementation reasons for that.
>
> Does this mean that Py3K intends to reuse major portions of
> Python 2.x's implementation?
Absolutely! In fact, the major push in Py3K is to remove portions of
code (such as classic classes).
--
Aahz ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
e can't be the only ones.
I shan't argue too forcefully, though; it wouldn't be that hard to
rename it.
--
Aahz ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/
"LL YR VWL R BLNG T S"
___
Python-3000
il clients can understand that,
and people using text e-mail clients can more easily copy/paste the URL.
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"LL YR VWL R BLNG T S"
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Py
s inherently diamond
inheritance -- how do you propose to deal with that?
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"LL YR VWL R BLNG T S"
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http://mail.
On Tue, Apr 18, 2006, Ian Bicking wrote:
> Aahz wrote:
>>On Tue, Apr 18, 2006, Thomas Wouters wrote:
>>
>>>- Compiler hackery involving a magical variable name, say '__class__'
>>>or '__CLASS__'. The compiler would treat this specially, proba
ns,
> although I'm not sure if they're bad.
+1 Of course, we will still have name problems, but they won't be
clashes. I don't know that this is needed for the super() issue, but
there are other problems with the current mangling system.
--
Aahz ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
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