Mariano Reingart added the comment:
Just for the record, I've presented a CPython Internationalization proposal
for this year Google Summer of Code program:
http://www.google-melange.com/gsoc/proposal/public/google/gsoc2015/reingart/5634387206995968
Indeed, that was my third attempt to move
Steven D'Aprano added the comment:
For what it's worth, there are at least two localised versions of Python:
Teuton and ChinesePython. As far as I know, ChinesePython is still in active
development. Both translate the keywords and builtins, to German and Chinese
respectively. I don't have a
Ezio Melotti added the comment:
Teach the users English may be an altruist goal in the long term, but
for many teachers (like my case) it a barrier right now that can tip
the balance to other more friendly languages
Students are not required to learn English and English grammar before
Antoine Pitrou added the comment:
Those that continues working on programming will surely be exposed
sooner or later to formal technical English course at University or
similar.
The sooner they get exposed to English the better it is. The best
way to learn a language is by using it,
Ezio Melotti added the comment:
This sounds like wishful thinking to me. Regardless of whether it's
*better* for a fledgling programmer to learn and improve their English,
we can still improve Python right now for those who don't master English.
True, but my point is that while this has some
R. David Murray added the comment:
It seems to me that if as Terry suggests both the English and the translation
are output then most of Ezio's concerns would be addressed. Maybe we could
even start a new trend in error message internationalization :)
An important question that needs to be
Georg Brandl added the comment:
How do you propose to output both versions? It will make tracebacks twice as
long.
--
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Python tracker rep...@bugs.python.org
http://bugs.python.org/issue16344
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Ezio Melotti added the comment:
If only the error gets translated it might look more or less like:
Traceback (most recent call last):
File form.py, line 78, in module
f = Form(factura.csv)
File form.py, line 12, in __init__
for linea in open(infile).readlines():
IOError: [Errno 2]
R. David Murray added the comment:
I didn't look at the patch...I assumed we were only talking about the message.
There seems little point in translating any other part of the traceback, other
than maybe the boilerplate between traceback sections. My thought was that the
translation text
R. David Murray added the comment:
Ezio: ah. I guess I don't read the Description column of attachments, only the
filename :)
--
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Python tracker rep...@bugs.python.org
http://bugs.python.org/issue16344
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Terry J. Reedy added the comment:
What Ezio suggested, plus maybe the error name -- but people must learn those
to write exception statements, and a translation of the exceptions section of
the lib manual is really needed to understand them.
The boilerplate lines Traceback (most recent call
Terry J. Reedy added the comment:
An additional reason to keep English error messages always is that they are not
just printed. They are part of the args tuple attribute of exception objects.
Code that processes exception messages could break if the English version is
replaced. Doctests are
Raymond Hettinger added the comment:
I'm going to close this one. It *really* would need a PEP before going
forward. There are many issues to consider: being able to google for an
exception message, doctest issues, maintainability issues, etc.
--
nosy: +rhettinger
resolution: -
Raymond Hettinger added the comment:
The text is now correct and matches the spec:
http://speleotrove.com/decimal/daops.html#refremnear
The doctests should be expanded to show all of the examples listed in that
document:
remainder-near(’2.1’, ’3’)== ’-0.9’
remainder-near(’10’, ’6’)
Terry J. Reedy added the comment:
Raymond, did you mean to send that to another issue?
--
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Python tracker rep...@bugs.python.org
http://bugs.python.org/issue16344
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Ramchandra Apte added the comment:
Unless Python's grammar is translated into other languages I'm -1 on this.
I don't see any use of this. You anyway have to know English to understand the
docs and Python's grammar is English.
@Ezio melotti
In some places (like my country, public schools),
Charles-François Natali added the comment:
Schools put a priority on English but not on native languages. Languages must
be preserved because they contain culture
Of course, but the main goal of a language is to communicate.
As it stand, English is the language which is the most likely to
Terry J. Reedy added the comment:
It'll get tricky if in a couple months, we start getting bug reports with
traceback in Finnish or French...
That is another reason to *always* output the standard English message first. I
think this was discussed a couple of years ago on PyDev, or maybe
Antoine Pitrou added the comment:
You anyway have to know English to understand the docs and Python's
grammar is English.
I don't think Python's grammar is relevant. I took my first steps in
programming when I was around 10 and I barely knew English at the time, it
didn't stop me from
Changes by R. David Murray rdmur...@bitdance.com:
--
nosy: +r.david.murray
___
Python tracker rep...@bugs.python.org
http://bugs.python.org/issue16344
___
___
Mariano Reingart added the comment:
Sorry for taking so long to replying, and for this long follow up...
Antoine Pitrou added the comment:
I think the PEP should be proposed on python-dev or python-ideas.
Also, it's probably better if the PEP is encoded in utf-8, not
latin-1.
Ok, I'll
Ramchandra Apte added the comment:
I said
Schools put a priority on English but not on native languages. Languages
must be preserved because they contain culture
Charles-François Natali said
Of course, but the main goal of a language is to communicate.
As it stand, English is the language
Ezio Melotti added the comment:
serious developers? sorry but I think that is a unfortunate phrase
that goes against the Python Diversity Statement
With serious I just mean anyone that wants to continue programming, as
opposed as someone doing e.g. a one-off course at university (hence the
New submission from Mariano Reingart:
I'm opening this ticket to organize patches for a proposal of a GETTEXT-based
message translation for exception/tracebacks as described in:
http://python.org.ar/pyar/TracebackInternationalizationProposal
This requires the patch in issue #16343
Attached
Georg Brandl added the comment:
Has this been discussed on python-dev before? I see that your proposal is in
PEP form; it would be a good idea to post it to python-dev since this is not a
change that can be done without a PEP.
--
nosy: +georg.brandl
Mariano Reingart added the comment:
This has been discussed in python-ideas two years ago (I've resurrected the
thread there)
Sadly I didn't have time for this before, but as in 15 days we have a sprint on
cpython at PyCon Argetina 2012, maybe it would be a good idea discuss this
again.
Mariano Reingart added the comment:
BTW, I'd write a draft PEP for this (attached), the online version is at
http://python.org.ar/pyar/TracebackInternationalizationProposal
Just let me know if it has to be uploaded/discussed elsewere
--
Added file:
Ezio Melotti added the comment:
I'm -1 on the idea for the following reasons:
* any serious developer is expected to know English, and novice developers
should be encouraged to learn it, rather than being confined to a localized
environment;
* even if the error messages are translated, all
Mariano Reingart added the comment:
serious developers? sorry but I think that is a unfortunate phrase that goes
against the Python Diversity Statement
What about young pupil?
What about non-programmers (i.e. accountants)?
In some places (like my country, public schools), English is not teach
Antoine Pitrou added the comment:
I think the PEP should be proposed on python-dev or python-ideas.
Also, it's probably better if the PEP is encoded in utf-8, not latin-1.
--
nosy: +pitrou
___
Python tracker rep...@bugs.python.org
Terry J. Reedy added the comment:
I am sympathetic with non-English speakers wanting a native-language
translation. But I think the interpreter should *always* emit the standard
message and that any translation should be an addition, not a replacement. This
would maintain discoverablity and
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