Madison May added the comment:
This issue may have been dead for 3+ years, but perhaps it's time its brought
back to the surface. Aside from simple being convenient for general security
practices, a stdlib module for crypto routines would enable python to handle
encrypted zipfiles and
Marc-Andre Lemburg added the comment:
Madison May wrote:
This issue may have been dead for 3+ years, but perhaps it's time its brought
back to the surface. Aside from simple being convenient for general security
practices, a stdlib module for crypto routines would enable python to handle
Madison May added the comment:
Yeah, that definitely qualifies as a good argument. I didn't consider the
legal issues that would create. Let's let this issue rest in peace, then.
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Gregory P. Smith added the comment:
The interest is there but nobody is designing or implementing it.
Realistically, make a module sporting the proposed API and put it up on pypi
and after success there: raise the issue on python-ideas.
Read the entire thread here first before designing such
Gregory P. Smith added the comment:
Python already ships with SSL support so the legal ship might have sailed ages
ago if thats what PSF lawyers say. (IANAL)
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Devin Cook devin.c.c...@gmail.com added the comment:
It sounds like you may already have an idea of how you want the API structured,
but just in case you're still thinking about it here's another API to look at
that I think focuses on exactly what you were highlighting as priorities (sane
Marc-Andre Lemburg m...@egenix.com added the comment:
I've been in touch with the copyright holders of pyOpenSSL and they all were
positive about contributing the code to the PSF under a contributor agreement.
The idea would then be to add the crypto routines to pyOpenSSL and have that
added
Antoine Pitrou pit...@free.fr added the comment:
I've been in touch with the copyright holders of pyOpenSSL and they
all were positive about contributing the code to the PSF under a
contributor agreement.
So how should we go about this ? Open a new ticket ?
I would like to see public
Marc-Andre Lemburg m...@egenix.com added the comment:
Antoine Pitrou wrote:
Antoine Pitrou pit...@free.fr added the comment:
I've been in touch with the copyright holders of pyOpenSSL and they
all were positive about contributing the code to the PSF under a
contributor agreement.
So how
Antoine Pitrou pit...@free.fr added the comment:
This sounds a bit ridiculous. Why not add the crypto routines directly
to the stdlib?
To make those routines available to a broader audience and to
get more user feedback.
Sure. But it can be any standalone package, not necessarily
Marc-Andre Lemburg m...@egenix.com added the comment:
Antoine Pitrou wrote:
Antoine Pitrou pit...@free.fr added the comment:
This sounds a bit ridiculous. Why not add the crypto routines directly
to the stdlib?
To make those routines available to a broader audience and to
get more user
Antoine Pitrou pit...@free.fr added the comment:
The APIs should probably be discussed on the Python crypto or
pyOpenSSL list and the discussion about its integration into the
stdlib on either the python-dev or the stdlib list.
If the target goal is stdlib inclusion, the APIs should be
geremy condra debat...@gmail.com added the comment:
Besides there are already patches available which do add the
ciphers and hashs to pyOpenSSL, so the development could be
sped up by using those as references.
I don't think that's the case. I admit that development on this has
been very
Marc-Andre Lemburg m...@egenix.com added the comment:
geremy condra wrote:
geremy condra debat...@gmail.com added the comment:
The pyOpenSSL port to Python3 is closing in on completion. Jean-Paul
is planning for an alpha release next month.
Do you know if he's looking for help with
Georg Brandl ge...@python.org added the comment:
If that text is deemed to be advertising by Eric Young and a court of law
The license of a software product cannot affect software that is not even aware
of that said product. (A patent, or a trademark can.) It governs the use of
that
lorph lor...@gmail.com added the comment:
The license of a software product cannot affect software that is not even
aware of that said product.
I never claimed that the clause triggered for all software in existence. We are
talking about OpenSSL being bundled with Python where Python is
Martin v. Löwis mar...@v.loewis.de added the comment:
I never claimed that the clause triggered for all software in
existence. We are talking about OpenSSL being bundled with Python
where Python is very much aware of OpenSSL. Provided the following 3
circumstances are met, the advertisement
Marc-Andre Lemburg m...@egenix.com added the comment:
Antoine Pitrou wrote:
Antoine Pitrou pit...@free.fr added the comment:
pyOpenSSL is stable, in production use and
has a decent API. The ssl module is good enough for HTTPS client
use. pyOpenSSL provides a robust server side
geremy condra debat...@gmail.com added the comment:
On Tue, Sep 21, 2010 at 4:04 AM, Marc-Andre Lemburg
rep...@bugs.python.org wrote:
Marc-Andre Lemburg m...@egenix.com added the comment:
Antoine Pitrou wrote:
Antoine Pitrou pit...@free.fr added the comment:
pyOpenSSL is stable, in
Marc-Andre Lemburg m...@egenix.com added the comment:
geremy condra wrote:
geremy condra debat...@gmail.com added the comment:
On Tue, Sep 21, 2010 at 4:04 AM, Marc-Andre Lemburg
rep...@bugs.python.org wrote:
Marc-Andre Lemburg m...@egenix.com added the comment:
Antoine Pitrou wrote:
geremy condra debat...@gmail.com added the comment:
On Tue, Sep 21, 2010 at 10:33 AM, Marc-Andre Lemburg
rep...@bugs.python.org wrote:
Marc-Andre Lemburg m...@egenix.com added the comment:
geremy condra wrote:
geremy condra debat...@gmail.com added the comment:
On Tue, Sep 21, 2010 at
Marc-Andre Lemburg m...@egenix.com added the comment:
geremy condra wrote:
I'll ask Jean-Paul and AB Strakt if they are up to contributing
the pyOpenSSL code to the Python stdlib based on a contributor
agreement. This would enable us to relicense the code under
the PSF license even if the
geremy condra debat...@gmail.com added the comment:
On Tue, Sep 21, 2010 at 11:29 AM, Marc-Andre Lemburg
rep...@bugs.python.org wrote:
Marc-Andre Lemburg m...@egenix.com added the comment:
geremy condra wrote:
I'll ask Jean-Paul and AB Strakt if they are up to contributing
the pyOpenSSL
Marc-Andre Lemburg m...@egenix.com added the comment:
geremy condra wrote:
The intention all along has been that we use the C API, and in fact
I'm pretty far along on writing that. Assuming there won't be an issue
with porting pyopenssl to python3, this seems like a pretty good idea
to me
geremy condra debat...@gmail.com added the comment:
The pyOpenSSL port to Python3 is closing in on completion. Jean-Paul
is planning for an alpha release next month.
Do you know if he's looking for help with that? There's been some talk of
a porting sprint here and I'd be happy to put that
lorph lor...@gmail.com added the comment:
Do you think that if OpenSSL provided its own implementation of strlen(),
every text that mentions strlen() needs to acknowledge OpenSSL? Do you
realize how ridiculous that is?
If that text is deemed to be advertising by Eric Young and a court of
Antoine Pitrou pit...@free.fr added the comment:
If there is a problem with multiple libraries, I'd like to reiterate
my support for migrating to NSS.
Will your support go so far as to investigate feasibility and provide a
patch?
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geremy condra debat...@gmail.com added the comment:
On Mon, Sep 20, 2010 at 3:44 PM, lorph rep...@bugs.python.org wrote:
lorph lor...@gmail.com added the comment:
Do you think that if OpenSSL provided its own implementation of strlen(),
every text that mentions strlen() needs to
Gregory P. Smith g...@krypto.org added the comment:
This bug has turned into a bikeshed.
Lets stop that please.
I _DON'T_ care about performance when it comes to someone submitting an
actual working implementation of a crypto library for inclusion with the
standard library. The first priority
Georg Brandl ge...@python.org added the comment:
The license clearly states: All advertising materials mentioning
features or use of this software. Do you somehow disagree that base64
is a feature of the OpenSSL library?
http://www.openssl.org/docs/crypto/BIO_f_base64.html
That's funny. Do
Marc-Andre Lemburg m...@egenix.com added the comment:
Just another data point for the discussion:
The PSF is currently funding the effort to port pyOpenSSL to
Python 3.x and the port is nearly finished.
It may be worthwhile investigating adding the EVP interface
from evpy (with the ctypes
Antoine Pitrou pit...@free.fr added the comment:
It may be worthwhile investigating adding the EVP interface
from evpy (with the ctypes bindings converted to real C wrappers)
to pyOpenSSL and then adding the pyOpenSSL package to the stdlib.
pyOpenSSL being LGPL'ed, I'm not sure this is
Marc-Andre Lemburg m...@egenix.com added the comment:
Antoine Pitrou wrote:
Antoine Pitrou pit...@free.fr added the comment:
It may be worthwhile investigating adding the EVP interface
from evpy (with the ctypes bindings converted to real C wrappers)
to pyOpenSSL and then adding the
Antoine Pitrou pit...@free.fr added the comment:
pyOpenSSL is stable, in production use and
has a decent API. The ssl module is good enough for HTTPS client
use. pyOpenSSL provides a robust server side implementation with
all the required certificate and context handling needed for this.
Martin v. Löwis mar...@v.loewis.de added the comment:
Unless base64 is an OpenSSL trademark, this is FUD.
The license clearly states: All advertising materials mentioning
features or use of this software. Do you somehow disagree that
base64 is a feature of the OpenSSL library?
What
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geremy condra debat...@gmail.com added the comment:
On Fri, Sep 17, 2010 at 8:55 PM, Gregory P. Smith
rep...@bugs.python.org wrote:
Gregory P. Smith g...@krypto.org added the comment:
libtomcrypt is a _great_ library. That is what hashlib uses for the hash
algorithms when OpenSSL is not
lorph lor...@gmail.com added the comment:
OpenSSL outperforms libtomcrypt by a significant factor (easily 2x) in most
cases.
Gregory, do you have any evidence to substantiate this claim? Not that it isn't
plausible, but I couldn't find any benchmarks, and here the author of
libtomcrypt
Antoine Pitrou pit...@free.fr added the comment:
It is also not a convincing argument that new python libraries should
use OpenSSL if possible just because that is what _ssl uses. Compiling
Python with OpenSSL support has been optional because it puts
additional restrictions on the PSF
lorph lor...@gmail.com added the comment:
It certainly makes more sense than making Python depend on *several* crypto
libraries.
Since libtomcrypt is public domain, you could incorporate the source into the
tree without making it a binary dependency. The same cannot be said for
OpenSSL. I
Antoine Pitrou pit...@free.fr added the comment:
Since libtomcrypt is public domain, you could incorporate the source
into the tree without making it a binary dependency.
And then we have to maintain our copy ourselves. I'm not sure why you
think this is better than depending on a system-wide
lorph lor...@gmail.com added the comment:
The solution to stop violating it is trivial, though: just add the
required mention(s).
That only solves the problem for Python.org. It does not solve the problem for
everyone else that has to write This product includes software developed by
the
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lorph lor...@gmail.com added the comment:
May I recommend using libtomcrypt instead of openssl because of the advertising
problem outlined here?
http://bugs.python.org/issue9119
In my opinion, libtomcrypt is easier to use and cleaner. It compiles on Windows
without requiring Perl, and is
Antoine Pitrou pit...@free.fr added the comment:
May I recommend using libtomcrypt instead of openssl because of the
advertising problem outlined here?
Changing libraries because of an advertising problem doesn't sound
reasonable. The latter is much more easily solved than the former.
Jean-Paul Calderone inva...@example.invalid added the comment:
How about nss? As a bonus, this would also avoid making more work for Fedora
(http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FedoraCryptoConsolidation).
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Antoine Pitrou pit...@free.fr added the comment:
How about nss? As a bonus, this would also avoid making more work for
Fedora (http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FedoraCryptoConsolidation).
Well, similar question: what will it bring and who will do the work? :)
(Fedora perhaps?)
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Dave Malcolm dmalc...@redhat.com added the comment:
On Fri, 2010-09-17 at 23:11 +, Antoine Pitrou wrote:
Antoine Pitrou pit...@free.fr added the comment:
How about nss? As a bonus, this would also avoid making more work for
Fedora
Jean-Paul Calderone inva...@example.invalid added the comment:
What it will bring: APIs which aren't absolutely insane; full SSL support; RSA,
DSA, ECDSA, Diffie-Hellman, EC Diffie-Hellman, AES, Triple DES, DES, RC2, RC4,
SHA-1, SHA-256, SHA-384, SHA-512, MD2, MD5, HMAC: Common cryptographic
Dave Malcolm dmalc...@redhat.com added the comment:
I should note that I can't touch anything to do with Elliptic Curve crypto. I
don't know if I can comment on the reasons for that.
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Jean-Paul Calderone inva...@example.invalid added the comment:
I should note that I can't touch anything to do with Elliptic Curve crypto.
I don't know if I can comment on the reasons for that.
Hopefully anything ECC related can be done separately. There's certainly no
ECC APIs in Python
Antoine Pitrou pit...@free.fr added the comment:
Le vendredi 17 septembre 2010 à 23:14 +, Dave Malcolm a écrit :
Dave Malcolm dmalc...@redhat.com added the comment:
On Fri, 2010-09-17 at 23:11 +, Antoine Pitrou wrote:
Antoine Pitrou pit...@free.fr added the comment:
How about
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Dave Malcolm dmalc...@redhat.com added the comment:
FWIW, one of my RH colleagues (John Dennis) has written a set of Python
bindings for NSS:
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/PythonNSS
(Though that seems to me to be a slightly different thing to a general-purpose
crypto lib that
Gregory P. Smith g...@krypto.org added the comment:
libtomcrypt is a _great_ library. That is what hashlib uses for the hash
algorithms when OpenSSL is not available.
But the _primary_ reason for using OpenSSL is that it is the defacto open
source location for the best architecture specific
Éric Araujo mer...@netwok.org added the comment:
Thanks for the reply, the situation looks good!
I’m an interested outsider with practically no knowledge of encryption except
from a high-level GPG user viewpoint, so I can’t help with tests, but I could
give a hand to documentation.
Éric Araujo mer...@netwok.org added the comment:
Geremy, could you kindly give a status update? Thanks
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geremy condra debat...@gmail.com added the comment:
On Thu, Aug 26, 2010 at 3:49 PM, Éric Araujo rep...@bugs.python.org wrote:
Éric Araujo mer...@netwok.org added the comment:
Geremy, could you kindly give a status update? Thanks
The block and stream cipher parts of the library (RC4, AES,
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Marc-Andre Lemburg m...@egenix.com added the comment:
Apart from the question of API, please also include a section on the legal
implications this move would have on Python in the PEP.
We currently only include OpenSSL in the Windows installers and (for some
reason) don't pay much attention
Antoine Pitrou pit...@free.fr added the comment:
If we are to require OpenSSL or some other crypto lib,
We already depend on OpenSSL for both hashlib and ssl, this proposal
wouldn't change anything in this regard.
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Marc-Andre Lemburg m...@egenix.com added the comment:
Antoine Pitrou wrote:
Antoine Pitrou pit...@free.fr added the comment:
If we are to require OpenSSL or some other crypto lib,
We already depend on OpenSSL for both hashlib and ssl, this proposal
wouldn't change anything in this
Marc-Andre Lemburg m...@egenix.com added the comment:
Marc-Andre Lemburg wrote:
We currently only include OpenSSL in the Windows installers and (for some
reason) don't pay much attention to the implications this has (the fact is
not mentioned on the download page and the Windows installer
geremy condra debat...@gmail.com added the comment:
On Tue, Jun 29, 2010 at 2:25 PM, Marc-Andre Lemburg
rep...@bugs.python.org wrote:
Marc-Andre Lemburg m...@egenix.com added the comment:
Antoine Pitrou wrote:
Antoine Pitrou pit...@free.fr added the comment:
If we are to require OpenSSL
geremy condra debat...@gmail.com added the comment:
On Sat, Jun 19, 2010 at 7:52 AM, Antoine Pitrou rep...@bugs.python.org wrote:
Antoine Pitrou pit...@free.fr added the comment:
Le samedi 19 juin 2010 à 00:55 +, geremy condra a écrit :
geremy condra debat...@gmail.com added the
Antoine Pitrou pit...@free.fr added the comment:
Le dimanche 20 juin 2010 à 06:30 +, geremy condra a écrit :
crypto API
==
[...]
For presentation purposes, I would order layers by abstraction levem:
that is, layer 1 should be the lower-level layer and layer 2 the
upper-level.
I
Antoine Pitrou pit...@free.fr added the comment:
Le samedi 19 juin 2010 à 00:55 +, geremy condra a écrit :
geremy condra debat...@gmail.com added the comment:
On Fri, Jun 18, 2010 at 6:05 AM, Antoine Pitrou rep...@bugs.python.org
wrote:
Antoine Pitrou pit...@free.fr added the
Martin v. Löwis mar...@v.loewis.de added the comment:
* I'd prefer if the crypto API didn't become OpenSSL specific (like the
SSL one is), which would theoretically allow switching in other crypto
provider(s).
I agree in theory, although I'm not sure how important this is likely
to be
Daniel Urban urban.dani...@gmail.com added the comment:
* When I have thought about Python crypto in the stdlib, I've considered
modeling it after hashlib, so you would get cipher = cryptolib.AES(bits=192,
...) etc. (Caveat: haven't thought it through.)
I think there is a relevant PEP:
geremy condra debat...@gmail.com added the comment:
On Fri, Jun 18, 2010 at 2:19 AM, Martin v. Löwis rep...@bugs.python.org wrote:
Martin v. Löwis mar...@v.loewis.de added the comment:
* I'd prefer if the crypto API didn't become OpenSSL specific (like the
SSL one is), which would
geremy condra debat...@gmail.com added the comment:
On Fri, Jun 18, 2010 at 2:39 AM, Daniel Urban rep...@bugs.python.org wrote:
Daniel Urban urban.dani...@gmail.com added the comment:
* When I have thought about Python crypto in the stdlib, I've considered
modeling it after hashlib, so
Antoine Pitrou pit...@free.fr added the comment:
Le vendredi 18 juin 2010 à 06:46 +, geremy condra a écrit :
geremy condra debat...@gmail.com added the comment:
On Fri, Jun 18, 2010 at 2:39 AM, Daniel Urban rep...@bugs.python.org wrote:
Daniel Urban urban.dani...@gmail.com added the
geremy condra debat...@gmail.com added the comment:
On Fri, Jun 18, 2010 at 3:09 AM, Antoine Pitrou rep...@bugs.python.org wrote:
Antoine Pitrou pit...@free.fr added the comment:
Le vendredi 18 juin 2010 à 06:46 +, geremy condra a écrit :
geremy condra debat...@gmail.com added the
Antoine Pitrou pit...@free.fr added the comment:
I'd point out that the ssl module itself seems to have evolved from a
trivial wrapper API (in the 2.5 docs I can only find a single
3-parameter function, socket.ssl()) to a more comprehensive API in 3.2,
because people ultimately need the
geremy condra debat...@gmail.com added the comment:
On Fri, Jun 18, 2010 at 3:28 AM, Antoine Pitrou rep...@bugs.python.org wrote:
Antoine Pitrou pit...@free.fr added the comment:
I'd point out that the ssl module itself seems to have evolved from a
trivial wrapper API (in the 2.5 docs I
Antoine Pitrou pit...@free.fr added the comment:
Well, like I say, I'm willing to contribute what time and ability
allow. Are you thinking of adding a comprehensive wrapper to the ssl
module?
Hmm, no, I was just providing an existing datapoint to help us deciding
on a crypto API. AFAICT
geremy condra debat...@gmail.com added the comment:
On Fri, Jun 18, 2010 at 4:53 AM, Antoine Pitrou rep...@bugs.python.org wrote:
Antoine Pitrou pit...@free.fr added the comment:
Well, like I say, I'm willing to contribute what time and ability
allow. Are you thinking of adding a
Antoine Pitrou pit...@free.fr added the comment:
I would suggest that we focus on defining and building a
lower-level interface along the lines of the PEP noted earlier,
integrating that with evpy, and getting it in shape to go into the
stdlib.
That sounds reasonable to me.
(although I
geremy condra debat...@gmail.com added the comment:
On Fri, Jun 18, 2010 at 5:37 AM, Antoine Pitrou rep...@bugs.python.org wrote:
Antoine Pitrou pit...@free.fr added the comment:
I would suggest that we focus on defining and building a
lower-level interface along the lines of the PEP noted
Antoine Pitrou pit...@free.fr added the comment:
Great, I'm thinking more-or-less the API proposed in PEP 272- the
exception I'm thinking of is that 'strings' should be substituted for
'bytes'- for AES and DES. It gets trickier when talking about public
key crypto, though. Perhaps something
geremy condra debat...@gmail.com added the comment:
On Fri, Jun 18, 2010 at 6:05 AM, Antoine Pitrou rep...@bugs.python.org wrote:
Antoine Pitrou pit...@free.fr added the comment:
Great, I'm thinking more-or-less the API proposed in PEP 272- the
exception I'm thinking of is that 'strings'
Heikki Toivonen hjtoi-bugzi...@comcast.net added the comment:
More or less random opinions on things presented before:
* I prefer having secure defaults to over documentation, because, well, people
don't read documentation.
* If not secure defaults, then pointing out in documentation the
geremy condra debat...@gmail.com added the comment:
On Thu, Jun 17, 2010 at 8:01 PM, Heikki Toivonen rep...@bugs.python.org wrote:
Heikki Toivonen hjtoi-bugzi...@comcast.net added the comment:
More or less random opinions on things presented before:
* I prefer having secure defaults to
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Antoine Pitrou pit...@free.fr added the comment:
I've taken a quick look at the source tree (there doesn't seem to be any
separate docs) and here is my opinion:
- the evp.py API is too low-level (it's a one-to-one mapping to the OpenSSL C
API); we would want at least some kind of
geremy condra debat...@gmail.com added the comment:
On Tue, Jun 15, 2010 at 9:21 AM, Antoine Pitrou rep...@bugs.python.org wrote:
Antoine Pitrou pit...@free.fr added the comment:
I've taken a quick look at the source tree (there doesn't seem to be any
separate docs) and here is my opinion:
Damjan Georgievski gdam...@users.sourceforge.net added the comment:
AFAIK, what the stdlib needs is a high-level crypto module, analogous to hashlib
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Antoine Pitrou pit...@free.fr added the comment:
Le mardi 15 juin 2010 à 14:49 +, geremy condra a écrit :
The goals of the library are simplicity and ease of use. I've
frequently found that out of fear of making incorrect choices, people
will simply decide not to use crypto at all, or
geremy condra debat...@gmail.com added the comment:
On Tue, Jun 15, 2010 at 9:49 AM, Antoine Pitrou rep...@bugs.python.org wrote:
Antoine Pitrou pit...@free.fr added the comment:
Le mardi 15 juin 2010 à 14:49 +, geremy condra a écrit :
The goals of the library are simplicity and ease of
Changes by Martin v. Löwis mar...@v.loewis.de:
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title: add encryption/decryption/signature/verification routinesto
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geremy condra debat...@gmail.com added the comment:
On Mon, Jun 14, 2010 at 3:37 PM, Martin v. Löwis rep...@bugs.python.org wrote:
Martin v. Löwis mar...@v.loewis.de added the comment:
Evpy and M2Crypto have very different goals. M2Crypto seeks to be a
complete wrapper for OpenSSL, which we
Antoine Pitrou pit...@free.fr added the comment:
Le lundi 14 juin 2010 à 22:48 +, geremy condra a écrit :
I have no idea, and as I said earlier in the mailing list, I'm
willing to contribute the code, make changes as requested,
and maintain it- but I have no interest in or skill with
Changes by Mike Crute mcr...@gmail.com:
--
nosy: +mcrute
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http://bugs.python.org/issue8998
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