[issue24765] Move .idlerc to %APPDATA%\IDLE on Windows

[Terry J. Reedy]

Terry J. Reedy added the comment:

I do not consider the presence of .idlec in $HOME on Windows to be a problem in 
itself.  There are numerous applications, unix-derived and otherwise, that do 
the same with config files.  Very few, if any, have the issue of sharing 
between multiple simultaneous versions. Installing a new versions deletes the 
old.  Many do not have the issue of users needing to edit the files.  These 
would be better candidates for making the switch.

Under current circumstances, I reject the proposal.  However, since I hope 
circumstances change, I am closing this as 'postponed' rather than 'rejected'.  
What I hope we can do, to make me *want* to re-open this.

* Switch from almost-dependable sockets to always-dependable pipes and delete 
the backup single-process (-n) mode (see IDLE Help).

* Switch from one user-code execution process to one for each editor window 
(including the shell).

* Let any recent (and installed) python version be chosen for each execution 
process.

* Improve configuration handling to where the need for user editing is mostly 
gone.  Example: ability to add a custom theme from a file without the user copy 
and pasting.

Each of these has benefits in itself, and the net effect would be that most 
everyone would only need to run the latest IDLE they have and not need to touch 
the .cfg files.  At this point, we would want to change the format and put them 
in a different (and less accessible) place anyway.

--
resolution:  -> postponed
stage:  -> resolved
status: open -> closed

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[issue24765] Move .idlerc to %APPDATA%\IDLE on Windows

[eryksun]

eryksun added the comment:

On Windows, how about creating a junction (_winapi.CreateJunction in 3.5, or 
the shell's mklink /j) from ~\.idlerc to %APPDATA%\idle? If ~\.idlerc already 
exists, it could be moved to %APPDATA%\idle before creating the junction. New 
code would directly use %APPDATA%\idle, but old code would continue to use 
~\.idlerc.

Creating junctions requires no special privilege, but IDLE would need write 
access to the user's home directory. If write access is denied, at least newer 
IDLE versions that use %APPDATA% would work.

On Linux, a symbolic link could be created from ~/.idlerc to 
[$XDG_CONFIG_HOME|~/.config]/idle.

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[issue24765] Move .idlerc to %APPDATA%\IDLE on Windows

[Mark Roseman]

Mark Roseman added the comment:

Further to Terry's backwards compatibility issues (also discussed in #8231).

Storing things in the "correct" location (%APPDATA% on Windows, and Application 
Support on OS X) would presumably be the "right" thing to do if backwards 
compatibility weren't an issue.  

If "APPDATA" is the "correct" place, and "HOME" is what we've been using now, 
consider a solution like this:

- check if prefs exist in APPDATA; if so, use that
- check if prefs exist in HOME; if so, use that
- if neither, create prefs in APPDATA

This handles the common cases of existing user upgrading to new scheme (things 
stay stored in old location), new user upgrading to newer versions in future 
(things go in new place), but fails on the case of user starts with new version 
and then later uses an older version (results in two separate preferences, one 
used by newer versions, one used by older).

I think it's a legitimate question as to whether that latter case is common 
enough or problematic enough to worry about it (given "fails" doesn't break 
anything).

--
nosy: +markroseman

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[issue24765] Move .idlerc to %APPDATA%\IDLE on Windows

[Terry J. Reedy]

Terry J. Reedy added the comment:

And if the older version is still present, as 2.7 will be for years, copy back 
to .idlerc.  To me, having two copies of the directory, one in the 'wrong' 
place, is worse than one copy in the wrong place.

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[issue24765] Move .idlerc to %APPDATA%\IDLE on Windows

[jan parowka]

jan parowka added the comment:

 fiddling with the entry bar the right way and adding exactly 'AppDate\' to 
 the existing path

You can type in '%APPDATA%' in the path bar, run dialog, or even start menu, 
and it will take you to the current user's Application Data folder. It works 
from XP upwards.

 The one .idlerc directory is used for all currently installed python versions

Yes, I imagine that's a bigger issue. The installer could, however, check 
whether there is currently an .idle directory in user folder and copy the 
settings over.

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[issue24765] Move .idlerc to %APPDATA%\IDLE on Windows

[Terry J. Reedy]

Terry J. Reedy added the comment:

Two negative factors.

1. Users may edit the user config files 'by hand'. They occasionally must edit 
them to fix problems. Burying them in a *hidden* directory (invisible in 
Explorer) will make editing much harder, *especially for beginners*.  Even as a 
long-time Windows user, I only recently learned how to access %APPDATA% in Win 
7, by fiddling with the entry bar the right way and adding exactly 'AppDate\' 
to the existing path, displayed as a path.  I am pretty sure this is different 
than with XP.  I imagine this has changed again in Win 8 and Win 10.  I really 
do not want to have to explain the Win version specific details when someone 
asks how to fix a problem here, python-list, or stackoverflow.  I doubt either 
of you want to either.

2. The one .idlerc directory is used for all currently installed python 
versions.  When one installs a new version, such as the upcoming 3.5.0, the 
custom font and size, custom keybindings, and anything else, are just there.  
We cannot magically go back and change all existing installations.

--
nosy: +terry.reedy

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[issue24765] Move .idlerc to %APPDATA%\IDLE on Windows

[Martin Panter]

Martin Panter added the comment:

See also Issue 7175, although I think that is more about low-level Python 
configuration, rather than application-level configuration like Idle.

--
nosy: +vadmium

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[issue24765] Move .idlerc to %APPDATA%\IDLE on Windows

[jan parowka]

New submission from jan parowka:

IDLE shouldn't pollute user's home directory on Windows, standard location for 
config files is %APPDATA%\App, which resolves to 
C:\Users\user\AppData\Roaming\App in Vista upwards and somewhere in 
Documents and Settings under XP.

--
components: IDLE
messages: 247754
nosy: jan parowka
priority: normal
severity: normal
status: open
title: Move .idlerc to %APPDATA%\IDLE on Windows
type: enhancement
versions: Python 3.4

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[issue24765] Move .idlerc to %APPDATA%\IDLE on Windows

[eryksun]

eryksun added the comment:

On Windows, using the shell's [Known Folders API][1] is preferred. For Python 
3.6+, an extension module could wrap SHGetKnownFolderPath and provide a dict of 
KNOWNFOLDERID values such as FOLDERID_RoamingAppData.

On Linux, there's the [XDG Base Directory Specification][2]. The application 
directory is created in one or more of the following directories {default in 
brackets}: $XDG_CONFIG_HOME {~/.config}, $XDG_DATA_HOME {~/.local/share}, and 
$XDG_CACHE_HOME {~/.cache}. 

What about Mac OS X?

[1]: https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/bb776911
[2]: http://standards.freedesktop.org/basedir-spec/latest

--
nosy: +eryksun
versions: +Python 3.6 -Python 3.4

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[issue24765] Move .idlerc to %APPDATA%\IDLE on Windows

[jan parowka]

jan parowka added the comment:

Mac Developer Library mentions Library/Application Support/App as a preferred 
directory to store configuration files for an application, gotten via a call to 
NSSearchPathForDirectoriesInDomains or NSFileManager with 
NSApplicationSupportDirectory path key and either NSLocalDomainMask domain (for 
all users) or NSUserDomainMask domain (for current user).

https://developer.apple.com/library/mac/documentation/General/Conceptual/MOSXAppProgrammingGuide/AppRuntime/AppRuntime.html

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