[issue45451] IDLE Shell GUI - remove window border

[Alex Waygood]

Change by Alex Waygood :


--
nosy: +AlexWaygood

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[issue45451] IDLE Shell GUI - remove window border

[Raymond Hettinger]

Raymond Hettinger  added the comment:

I request that this entire new feature be reverted.  Having used it in 
classroom environment, it has been a catastrophe for teaching and is a 
significant regression in usability.

Here are my notes so far:

1) As the OP says, this strong vertical line is visually jarring and against 
graphic design principles that allow the eye to group input/output pairs.  
Contrast this with Jupyter, Ipython, and previous versions of IDLE which use 
strong horizontal delineations between successive input/output pairs.

2) Pasting multiple statements into the shell window causes the first to be 
executed and the other statements are silently ignored.  This is a recurring 
problem with new students and for those with Jupyter experience.  For example, 
cut and paste these two statements into the shell and press return/enter:

print('hello')   # This executes
print('world')   # This is silently ignored

3) When students have errors, it is the norm to communicate them via a chat 
window.  Formerly, the PS1 prompt separated the inputs from the outputs in a 
shell session; however, the PS1 and PS2 prompts are not included in a cut and 
paste section.  The session becomes unintelligible because essential 
information is lost.   This affects chat, posting interactive sessions to 
StackOverflow, and the ability to post examples in docstrings.  In the main 
Python documentation, the examples always show the >>> but there is no longer a 
way to extract this essential information from an interactive session.

4) Related to #3 is that saving the shell window loses all the prompts.  For a 
decade, I've performed live interactive demonstrations and have saved the 
sessions so that students could review it.  Those saved sessions are now 
unreadable and therefore unusable.

Here is what a saved interactive lesson used to look like:

Python 3.7.6 (v3.7.6:43364a7ae0, Dec 18 2019, 14:18:50)
[Clang 6.0 (clang-600.0.57)] on darwin
Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license()" for more information.
>>> # Quoting syntax:  '  "   '''   """
>>> 'hello'
'hello'
>>> "hello"
'hello'
>>> '''hello'''
'hello'
>>> """hello"""
'hello'
>>> print('Don\'t prefer backslashes')
Don't prefer backslashes
>>> print("Instead, we've used alternate quotes")
Instead, we've used alternate quotes
>>> print('''She said, "I'm a good string quoter."''')
She said, "I'm a good string quoter."
>>> 30 + 40 - 5
65
>>> _ * 10
650
>>> _ * 10
6500
>>> type(_)


Here is what the saved session looks like now:

Python 3.11.0a2 (v3.11.0a2:e2b4e4bab9, Nov  5 2021, 15:54:35) [Clang 13.0.0 
(clang-1300.0.29.3)] on darwin
Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license()" for more information.
# Quoting syntax:  '  "   '''   """
'hello'
'hello'
"hello"
'hello'
'''hello'''
'hello'
"""hello"""
'hello'
print('Don\'t prefer backslashes')
Don't prefer backslashes
print("Instead, we've used alternate quotes")
Instead, we've used alternate quotes
print('''She said, "I'm a good string quoter."''')
She said, "I'm a good string quoter."
30 + 40 - 5
65
_ * 10
650
_ * 10
6500
type(_)


5) With new students, we have a problem we didn't use to have before.  When 
they emulate a live demo, they are typing the '...' PS1 prompt.  It is 
confusing.

FWIW, when I say "students", I'm referring to adults who are already experts in 
their field.  Today I was teaching experienced engineers (most with masters 
degrees) at a major consumer electronics company.  The new IDLE feature 
seriously degraded their experience and almost every learner was adversely 
affected in some way.

--
nosy: +rhettinger
priority: normal -> high

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[issue45451] IDLE Shell GUI - remove window border

[jerry chow]

Change by jerry chow :


--
nosy: +jerrylikerice1s

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[issue45451] IDLE Shell GUI - remove window border

[primexx]

primexx  added the comment:

of course that's fair, colour schemes are a very preferential thing. the main 
issue really is the border that creates a visual separation between the line 
indicators and the lines that they should be visually associated with. thanks!

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[issue45451] IDLE Shell GUI - remove window border

[Terry J. Reedy]

Terry J. Reedy  added the comment:

Whereas to me, 'not shaded' is easily the worst.  Users can customize the 
sidebar colors, but since the default is the same at the text, I would not want 
to deliver IDLE with a scheme that I think is awful.

On Windows, I agree that the light theme border is too heavy.  The dark  theme 
light border is barely noticeable.  On mac, its the opposite: light theme ok, 
dark theme white border is too prominent.  I would be willing to look at a 
change.

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[issue45451] IDLE Shell GUI - remove window border

[Terry J. Reedy]

Change by Terry J. Reedy :


--
nosy: +taleinat

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[issue45451] IDLE Shell GUI - remove window border

[primexx]

New submission from primexx :

Python 3.10 bundled IDLE with a small change in the interactive interpreter 
shell.

Previously, the line indicators ">>>" were in-line with the command line, and a 
long/multi line command would have the same indentation as the indicator which 
was not ideal.

that has been changed in 3.10 so that the line indicators are in a separate 
area as the actual commands so actual commands are always indented 
consistently. this is good.

however, there is now a thick window border separating the line indicator and 
the main window. this is jarring and creates a visual separation that 
disassociates the line indicator from the line itself.

i have on several occasions sat there waiting for something to finish only to 
notice that it has already finished but i missed seeing the next line indicator 
to the left.

the window border creates two separate spaces and is distracting.

an improvement would be to instead of the window border, eliminate it and shade 
the left side with a very light colour (probably even lighter than my photoshop 
in the attached image).

actually, I suggest that the best solution is to remove the window border and 
leave the entire thing contiguously white, with no shading, similar to what it 
looked like previously. except that it now has correct indentation. I think 
this is the most visually cohesive and easy to use.

Attached is an image to illustrate. Again, I suggest the "not shaded" version 
is the best.

--
assignee: terry.reedy
components: IDLE
files: idle310.PNG
messages: 403774
nosy: primexx, terry.reedy
priority: normal
severity: normal
status: open
title: IDLE Shell GUI - remove window border
type: enhancement
versions: Python 3.10
Added file: https://bugs.python.org/file50352/idle310.PNG

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