[issue35003] Provide an option to venv to put files in a bin/ directory on Windows

[Vinay Sajip]

Vinay Sajip  added the comment:

> This *should* reside in the bin directory

That's your opinion, but there are other views. As Paul Moore said in this 
comment:

https://github.com/python/cpython/pull/18083#issuecomment-577278587

Having things in bin *and* Scripts is more confusing than "on Windows use 
Scripts, on POSIX use bin".

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[issue35003] Provide an option to venv to put files in a bin/ directory on Windows

[Brett Cannon]

Change by Brett Cannon :


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nosy:  -brett.cannon

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[issue35003] Provide an option to venv to put files in a bin/ directory on Windows

[Erik Aronesty]

Erik Aronesty  added the comment:

> The Scripts/bin thing is not specific to venv - for whatever reason, the 
> original Windows implementation chose to use "Scripts" rather than "bin" 

That's irrelevant to the PR, which solves the problem in a compatible way.   
There's no compatibility issues if a link is made to the activate script, 
rather than moving the directory at all.

> My guess is you would need to propose a PEP to move *everything* over from 
> "Scripts" to "bin" in the Windows Python world

Certainly not.  That would break everything and would be a bad idea.

> This issue was already rejected before you added your PR so I'm not sure why 
> you went to the trouble of creating a PR.

Because the issue was rejected due to come conflating logic and confusion as to 
what the underlying problem and issue is.

The venv system produces files specifically for activation on Windows which 
must and should reside in the Scripts directory.

The venv system also produces files for activation in a bash (or similar) 
shell.  This *should* reside in the bin directory (there is no o/s dependency 
here), and it should *also* reside in the Scripts directory ... for 
compatibility.

Expressed that way, it's clear what the solution is.   Hence the PR.

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[issue35003] Provide an option to venv to put files in a bin/ directory on Windows

[Vinay Sajip]

Vinay Sajip  added the comment:

The Scripts/bin thing is not specific to venv - for whatever reason, the 
original Windows implementation chose to use "Scripts" rather than "bin" for 
the executables directory under Windows, and I don't think it can be changed 
now without affecting backward compatibility. The venv code just fits into the 
existing, wider theme. My guess is you would need to propose a PEP to move 
*everything* over from "Scripts" to "bin" in the Windows Python world, and show 
that it would not break any existing code anywhere - seems like a tall order.

This issue was already rejected before you added your PR so I'm not sure why 
you went to the trouble of creating a PR.

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[issue35003] Provide an option to venv to put files in a bin/ directory on Windows

[Erik Aronesty]

Erik Aronesty  added the comment:

See https://github.com/python/cpython/pull/18083 for an example of a 'simple 
copy' for shell script compatibility ... rather than trying to make Scripts 
move around (which it can't trivially).

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[issue35003] Provide an option to venv to put files in a bin/ directory on Windows

[Erik Aronesty]

Change by Erik Aronesty :


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pull_requests: +17474
pull_request: https://github.com/python/cpython/pull/18083

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[issue35003] Provide an option to venv to put files in a bin/ directory on Windows

[Erik Aronesty]

Erik Aronesty  added the comment:

the single Scripts/activate tool should be simply copied to bin/activate ... 
this is what you have to do to write a bash script for python now:

source bin/activate || source Scripts/activate

we should not assume that all windows users use things like CMD and PowerShell, 
and instead just make support for "shell activation" be cross-platform

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[issue35003] Provide an option to venv to put files in a bin/ directory on Windows

[Brett Cannon]

Brett Cannon  added the comment:

> Are you proposing to bring that functionality, which these third-party tools 
> perform currently, into the stdlib?

I was hoping to, but it turns out you can't make this work under Windows 
without inspecting the parent process (PowerShell and Command Prompt provide no 
way to know the path to the shell being run).

So since there's no interest in providing a way to unify the paths I'm going to 
close this issue.

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resolution:  -> rejected
stage: test needed -> resolved
status: open -> closed

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[issue35003] Provide an option to venv to put files in a bin/ directory on Windows

[Vinay Sajip]

Vinay Sajip  added the comment:

> You can't. Tools like `pipenv shell` and `conda shell` end up with a new 
> shell running instead of changing the current shell in-place.

Indeed. I raised it because of what you said earlier:

> and so maybe proposing a simple `venv --activate ` that does nothing 
> more than set those key environment variables and prints out a message about 
> what is happening is enough to do the trick

So not that simple, then, if it has to handle multiple shells cross-platform. 
Especially as if tools like pew, pipenv, conda already do this. Are you 
proposing to bring that functionality, which these third-party tools perform 
currently, into the stdlib?

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[issue35003] Provide an option to venv to put files in a bin/ directory on Windows

[Brett Cannon]

Brett Cannon  added the comment:

> If venv is run in a child process of the shell, how does it set those 
> variables in the parent shell?

You can't. Tools like `pipenv shell` and `conda shell` end up with a new shell 
running instead of changing the current shell in-place.

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[issue35003] Provide an option to venv to put files in a bin/ directory on Windows

[Vinay Sajip]

Vinay Sajip  added the comment:

> so maybe proposing a simple `venv --activate ` that does nothing more 
> than set those key environment variables

If venv is run in a child process of the shell, how does it set those variables 
in the parent shell? I thought that wasn't possible (on POSIX, anyway), which 
is why e.g. pew spawns a subshell.

> Sure, but then that doesn't mean activation isn't convenient

Indeed it is. But many less experienced users think that it's always a 
necessary step, when it isn't always so.

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[issue35003] Provide an option to venv to put files in a bin/ directory on Windows

[Brett Cannon]

Brett Cannon  added the comment:

> Surely "on native Windows you run venv-path\Scripts\activate[.ps1], on POSIX 
> you use source venv-path/bin/activate" isn't *that* hard for new users to 
> grok, and would cover the vast majority of users?

Sure, but how many times do we need to make people type, write, or say that 
exact line instead of a single line of "you activate by doing "?

> So venv’s setup is consistent with the rest of Python.

Right, it's a Python-on-Windows thing, not a Windows thing itself to my 
knowledge.

> I think Brett is thinking about eliminating the manual activate part entirely

I'm actually after a single command to handle activation of a virtual 
environment. It's a point of friction on your first day of learning Python and 
I have seen it solved multiple times at this point by multiple tools. This 
seemed like a potential simple way to solve it to me, but apparently not 
everyone agrees. ;)

Now I realize that if we don't worry about the prompt changing it's actually 
very straight-forward, and so maybe proposing a simple `venv --activate ` 
that does nothing more than set those key environment variables and prints out 
a message about what is happening is enough to do the trick (and if people want 
the prompt to change they can tweak their shell configs to detect something 
like `__VENV_PROMPT__` being set and use it appropriately).

> Of course, scripts installed in venvs never need activation to run

Sure, but then that doesn't mean activation isn't convenient. :) Otherwise what 
is the point of having the activation scripts?

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[issue35003] Provide an option to venv to put files in a bin/ directory on Windows

[Vinay Sajip]

Vinay Sajip  added the comment:

> I think Brett is thinking about eliminating the manual activate part 
> entirely, but any tool trying to automate that needs to do a lot of 
> platform-specific checks.

If you have more than one venv then it seems like some manual step is required 
to switch between them. What about a tool like Pew (Python Env Wrapper), which 
from the README "is completely shell-agnostic and thus works on bash, zsh, 
fish, powershell, etc."

https://github.com/berdario/pew

I haven't used in under Windows, but it works a treat on POSIX for me, YMMV of 
course.

Of course, scripts installed in venvs never need activation to run - they pick 
up the correct interpreter from their venv automatically.

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[issue35003] Provide an option to venv to put files in a bin/ directory on Windows

[Tzu-ping Chung]

Tzu-ping Chung  added the comment:

> Surely "on native Windows you run venv-path\Scripts\activate[.ps1], on POSIX 
> you use source venv-path/bin/activate" isn't *that* hard for new users to 
> grok [...]?

The if-Windows-X-else-Y part isn’t that hard; it’s the activate part that is :p

I think Brett is thinking about eliminating the manual activate part entirely, 
but any tool trying to automate that needs to do a lot of platform-specific 
checks.

---

> I've personally never come across Scripts in any other situation than virtual 
> environments [...].

Windows use a Scripts directory to store… scripts (Setuptools terminology, i.e. 
console and gui script entry points). So e.g. the global pip.exe would be at 
"{sys.prefix}\Scripts\pip.exe" (or is it sys.exec_prefix?) `pip install --user` 
would also install scripts into `%APPDATA%\Programs\Python\PythonXY\Scripts`. 
So venv’s setup is consistent with the rest of Python.

This directory structure can be expanded from sysconfig. So the proposal in my 
previous comment is to record the scheme in pyvenv.cfg, so you can have 
something like

def read_venv_scheme(env_dir):
with open(os.path.join(env_dir, 'pyvenv.cfg')) as f:
for line in f:
key, value = (p.strip() for p in line.split('='))
if key == 'scheme':
return value

def get_venv_environ_patch(env_dir):
scheme = read_venv_scheme(env_dir)
bin_dir = sysconfig.get_path('scripts', scheme=scheme, 
expand=False).format(base=env_dir)
return {'VIRTUAL_ENV': env_dir, 'PATH': bin_dir}

and this would give you the appropriate value on any platform.

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[issue35003] Provide an option to venv to put files in a bin/ directory on Windows

[Vinay Sajip]

Vinay Sajip  added the comment:

> Basically activation is the biggest stumbling block I find with new users

Surely "on native Windows you run venv-path\Scripts\activate[.ps1], on POSIX 
you use source venv-path/bin/activate" isn't *that* hard for new users to grok, 
and would cover the vast majority of users? (i.e. not including the other, 
less-common POSIX shells.)

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[issue35003] Provide an option to venv to put files in a bin/ directory on Windows

[Brett Cannon]

Brett Cannon  added the comment:

I've personally never come across Scripts in any other situation than virtual 
environments, but that isn't saying much about my Windows exposure either. :)

Basically activation is the biggest stumbling block I find with new users when 
it comes to trying to teach them about using virtual environments and this 
platform difference doesn't help. I would like to come up with _some_ solution 
to make it easier, even if it's something I have to put into the Python 
Launcher (although trying to get people to even agree on a name for virtual 
environments created beside the code turns out to be a hot topic). I would 
consider trying to come up with code so we have a `pipenv shell`/`conda shell` 
equivalent, but I've been told it is not pleasant to try and make work.

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[issue35003] Provide an option to venv to put files in a bin/ directory on Windows

[Tzu-ping Chung]

Tzu-ping Chung  added the comment:

There are more differences than Scripts/bin, like Windows use Lib but POSIX 
uses lib/pythonX.Y. IMO it’s probably better to stick with platform 
conventions, especially since those can be discovered with 
sysconfig.get_paths(expand=False).

I wonder whether it’d be a good idea to record what scheme was used to create 
the venv (in pyvenv.cfg). Any Python runtime can use that value in 
get_paths(scheme=..., expand=False) to know about the venv’s structure, even if 
the venv was created on another platform. This would be particularly useful to 
e.g. inspect a Windows-native venv in a WSL Python.

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nosy: +uranusjr

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[issue35003] Provide an option to venv to put files in a bin/ directory on Windows

[Vinay Sajip]

Vinay Sajip  added the comment:

The problem of bin over Scripts is that IIRC Scripts is baked-in in Windows, 
not just for venvs (e.g. a standard Python installation puts stuff in Scripts). 
So venv just sticks with the platform convention.

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[issue35003] Provide an option to venv to put files in a bin/ directory on Windows

[Brett Cannon]

Change by Brett Cannon :


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nosy: +vinay.sajip

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[issue35003] Provide an option to venv to put files in a bin/ directory on Windows

[Brett Cannon]

Change by Brett Cannon :


--
versions: +Python 3.9 -Python 3.8

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[issue35003] Provide an option to venv to put files in a bin/ directory on Windows

[DamlaAltun]

DamlaAltun  added the comment:

I couldn't find a way to prevent being in seperate forms. When i add custom 
bin, custom include and custom libpaths 4 files are creating. The  normal 
`bin`, normal `include` and custom `cbin` and custom `cinc`. You can unassign 
me.

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[issue35003] Provide an option to venv to put files in a bin/ directory on Windows

[DamlaAltun]

DamlaAltun  added the comment:

Working on that.

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[issue35003] Provide an option to venv to put files in a bin/ directory on Windows

[Brett Cannon]

Change by Brett Cannon :


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assignee:  -> brett.cannon

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[issue35003] Provide an option to venv to put files in a bin/ directory on Windows

[Brett Cannon]

New submission from Brett Cannon :

Having venv install files into Scripts/ on Windows but into bin/ on UNIX is 
troublesome for anything that tries to be cross-platform regarding virtual 
environments. Having a way to create a virtual environment on Windows where 
bin/ is used over Scripts/ would be handy.

--
components: Library (Lib)
messages: 327845
nosy: brett.cannon
priority: normal
severity: normal
stage: test needed
status: open
title: Provide an option to venv to put files in a bin/ directory on Windows
type: enhancement
versions: Python 3.8

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