Re: [python-committers] Transfer of power

Excerpts from Jack Jansen's message of 2018-07-17 11:33:22 +0200: > > > On 17 Jul 2018, at 02:02, Tim Peters wrote: > > > > [Tim] > >> Guido's most visible (well, to us committers) BDFL role has been in > >> "yes/no", "go/nogo" language/library design questions, which don't even > >> overlap

Re: [python-committers] Transfer of power

> On 17 Jul 2018, at 02:02, Tim Peters wrote: > > [Tim] >> Guido's most visible (well, to us committers) BDFL role has been in >> "yes/no", "go/nogo" language/library design questions, which don't even >> overlap with the PSF's proper concerns. >> >> But I'm not sure it's fully appreciated

Re: [python-committers] Transfer of power

Le 17/07/2018 à 04:07, Brett Cannon a écrit : > > This ties into the core dev sponsor idea that got floated where all > inexperienced PEP authors need someone to sign up to shepherd them > through the process. That way everything is more structured and, with > this idea, also more uniform. This

Re: [python-committers] Transfer of power

On Mon, Jul 16, 2018, 17:02 Tim Peters, wrote: > [Tim] > >> Guido's most visible (well, to us committers) BDFL role has been in >> "yes/no", "go/nogo" language/library design questions, which don't even >> overlap with the PSF's proper concerns. >> >> But I'm not sure it's fully appreciated just

Re: [python-committers] Transfer of power

[Tim] > Guido's most visible (well, to us committers) BDFL role has been in > "yes/no", "go/nogo" language/library design questions, which don't even > overlap with the PSF's proper concerns. > > But I'm not sure it's fully appreciated just how active Guido has been in > those at times. The

Re: [python-committers] Transfer of power

On Mon, 16 Jul 2018 at 15:21 Jack Jansen wrote: > > > On 16-Jul-2018, at 04:38 , Tim Peters wrote: > > Guido's most visible (well, to us committers) BDFL role has been in > "yes/no", "go/nogo" language/library design questions, which don't even > overlap with the PSF's proper concerns. > > But

Re: [python-committers] Transfer of power

> On 16-Jul-2018, at 04:38 , Tim Peters wrote: > > Guido's most visible (well, to us committers) BDFL role has been in "yes/no", > "go/nogo" language/library design questions, which don't even overlap with > the PSF's proper concerns. > > But I'm not sure it's fully appreciated just how

Re: [python-committers] Transfer of power

[Antoine] > I know what python-ideas can be like routinely (I do read it at times). > > I think the general idea of my comment is that the signal-to-noise ratio > on python-ideas is so low that, whether or not Guido had remained BDFL, > we would still have a productivity problem to solve there. >

Re: [python-committers] Transfer of power

[Chris Jerdonek] > ... But one case in the back of my mind that may have prompted my reply and that might qualify was when there was a randomness-related >> security issue in the summer of 2016. I believe this is the thread >> that kicked it off (subject line: "BDFL ruling request: should we >>

Re: [python-committers] Transfer of power

On Sun, 15 Jul 2018 at 19:38 Tim Peters wrote: > [Tim] > >> If they tied, that's fine too. Ties favor the status quo (same as if the >>> proposed change had been rejected). For that reason, I'm not even wedded >>> to an odd number. >>> >> > [Brett Cannon] > >> That's a good point. Since this

Re: [python-committers] Transfer of power

On Mon, 16 Jul 2018 at 00:17 Chris Jerdonek wrote: > On Sun, Jul 15, 2018 at 11:31 PM, Tim Peters wrote: > > [Chris Jerdonek] > >> > >> I don’t think we should assume that a stalemate would be okay in all > >> cases. There may be cases in which a decision has to be made (e.g. if > >> nothing

Re: [python-committers] Transfer of power

Le 16/07/2018 à 20:05, Tim Peters a écrit : > [Tim] > > > But I'm not sure it's fully appreciated just how active Guido has been > > in those at times.  The "accepted/rejected" at the end of major > PEPs is > > just a small part of that.  Along the way, e.g., it's been pretty >

Re: [python-committers] Transfer of power

[Tim] > > But I'm not sure it's fully appreciated just how active Guido has been > > in those at times. The "accepted/rejected" at the end of major PEPs is > > just a small part of that. Along the way, e.g., it's been pretty common > > to see a "Save your breath. That's not going to happen."

Re: [python-committers] Transfer of power

Le 16/07/2018 à 04:38, Tim Peters a écrit : > > But I'm not sure it's fully appreciated just how active Guido has been > in those at times.  The "accepted/rejected" at the end of major PEPs is > just a small part of that.  Along the way, e.g., it's been pretty common > to see a "Save your

Re: [python-committers] Transfer of power

On Sun, Jul 15, 2018 at 11:31 PM, Tim Peters wrote: > [Chris Jerdonek] >> >> I don’t think we should assume that a stalemate would be okay in all >> cases. There may be cases in which a decision has to be made (e.g. if >> nothing changes, bad things will happen). I think one of the most important

Re: [python-committers] Transfer of power

[Chris Jerdonek] > I don’t think we should assume that a stalemate would be okay in all > cases. There may be cases in which a decision has to be made (e.g. if > nothing changes, bad things will happen). I think one of the most important > roles a BDFL serves is to provide a mechanism of last

Re: [python-committers] Transfer of power

On Sun, Jul 15, 2018 at 6:07 PM Brett Cannon wrote: > On Sat, 14 Jul 2018 at 11:37 Tim Peters wrote: > >> [Tim] >> >>> > If there are 3 Elders [snip] >>> >> >> [Łukasz Langa] >> >> It looks like the number 3 is popular in this context. What makes it so >>> attractive? >>> >> >> Likely because

Re: [python-committers] Transfer of power

[Tim] > If they tied, that's fine too. Ties favor the status quo (same as if the >> proposed change had been rejected). For that reason, I'm not even wedded >> to an odd number. >> > [Brett Cannon] > That's a good point. Since this is typically going to be a yes/no question > instead of an A/B

Re: [python-committers] Transfer of power

On Sat, 14 Jul 2018 at 11:37 Tim Peters wrote: > [Tim] > >> > If there are 3 Elders [snip] >> > > [Łukasz Langa] > > It looks like the number 3 is popular in this context. What makes it so >> attractive? >> > > Likely because it was the first specific non-insane number someone > mentioned. It

Re: [python-committers] Transfer of power

I’m still here, but I would like to be out of the debate and out of the decision loop. I’m also still President of the PSF. But this is not for the PSF to decide. You all are doing fine. —Guido On Sun, Jul 15, 2018 at 1:37 PM Brett Cannon wrote: > > > On Sun, Jul 15, 2018, 13:01 Thomas

Re: [python-committers] Transfer of power

On Sun, Jul 15, 2018, 13:01 Thomas Wouters, wrote: > On Sun, Jul 15, 2018 at 8:53 AM Yury Selivanov > wrote: > >> On Sat, Jul 14, 2018 at 10:07 PM Brett Cannon wrote: >> [..] >> >> Ideally Guido would accept the PEP but I'm not sure if he is willing >> to. If that is indeed the case then how

Re: [python-committers] Transfer of power

On Sun, Jul 15, 2018 at 8:53 AM Yury Selivanov wrote: > On Sat, Jul 14, 2018 at 10:07 PM Brett Cannon wrote: > [..] > >> Ideally Guido would accept the PEP but I'm not sure if he is willing > to. If that is indeed the case then how should this be done so that the > document is universally

Re: [python-committers] Transfer of power

On Jul 14, 2018, at 00:16, Łukasz Langa wrote: > Taking a step back, before we talk names, term limits and even numbers of > council members, Python needs a "constitution" which will codify what the > council is and how it functions. Barry calls it PEP 2 but I'd like to > understand who is

Re: [python-committers] Transfer of power

On Sat, Jul 14, 2018 at 10:07 PM Brett Cannon wrote: [..] >> Ideally Guido would accept the PEP but I'm not sure if he is willing to. If >> that is indeed the case then how should this be done so that the document is >> universally accepted by all committers? > > > In my ideal scenario, people

Re: [python-committers] Transfer of power

On Sat, 14 Jul 2018 at 00:16 Łukasz Langa wrote: > > > On Jul 13, 2018, at 7:54 PM, Tim Peters wrote: > > > > If there are 3 Elders [snip] > > > It looks like the number 3 is popular in this context. What makes it so > attractive? > I think because it's small enough to be manageable and have

Re: [python-committers] Transfer of power

[Tim] > > If there are 3 Elders [snip] > [Łukasz Langa] > It looks like the number 3 is popular in this context. What makes it so > attractive? > Likely because it was the first specific non-insane number someone mentioned. It helps to be concrete, but I don't know that anyone is wedded to 3.

Re: [python-committers] Transfer of power

On Thu, Jul 12, 2018 at 4:58 PM Guido van Rossum wrote: > > Now that PEP 572 is done, I don't ever want to have to fight so hard for a > PEP and find that so many people despise my decisions. > > I would like to remove myself entirely from the decision process. I'll still > be there for a while

Re: [python-committers] Transfer of power

> On Jul 13, 2018, at 7:54 PM, Tim Peters wrote: > > If there are 3 Elders [snip] It looks like the number 3 is popular in this context. What makes it so attractive? I see a bunch of problems with such a low number, like the ability for a single corporation to take over the design process

Re: [python-committers] Transfer of power

On 13 July 2018 at 00:57, Guido van Rossum wrote: > Now that PEP 572 is done, I don't ever want to have to fight so hard for a > PEP and find that so many people despise my decisions. > > I would like to remove myself entirely from the decision process. I'll still > be there for a while as an

Re: [python-committers] Transfer of power

On Thu, Jul 12, 2018 at 12:17 PM Brett Cannon wrote: > On Thu, 12 Jul 2018 at 11:53 Barry Warsaw wrote: > >> >> That said, I think a triumvirate would work (Guido’s Unworthy Inherited >> Delegation Organization). > > > Nice! "GUIDO decided ..." Totally going to mess with Guido's personal SEO, >

Re: [python-committers] Transfer of power

[Nathaniel Smith] > ... > Well, sure, we can try to come up with something to slot into the > space Guido is leaving, while keeping everything else the same, that's > one option. There are already differences between "a Guido" and what Larry suggested. > But I doubt it's the best one. Then

Re: [python-committers] Transfer of power

On Fri, Jul 13, 2018 at 8:22 PM, Tim Peters wrote: > [Nathaniel Smith ] >> >> That's not really true -- life expectancy *at birth* was ~35 years, >> but mostly because so many people died as infants/children. If you >> survived long enough to get nominated for a judgeship, then by that >> point

Re: [python-committers] Transfer of power

[Tim] > So: term limits! Say, 12 years. If there are 3 Elders, replace one > every 12/3 = 4 years. At the start we can use the `secrets` module to pick > which Elders get the first 4, 8, and 12-year terms ;-) > > Fresh blood is a good thing in all areas. > > [Larry] > Can I get you to

Re: [python-committers] Transfer of power

[Nathaniel Smith ] > That's not really true -- life expectancy *at birth* was ~35 years, > but mostly because so many people died as infants/children. If you > survived long enough to get nominated for a judgeship, then by that > point your life expectancy wasn't too different from what we're

Re: [python-committers] Transfer of power

[Tim] > > Or, short of that, by an approval vote of the Fellows (whatever it is we > call for-real PSF members these days). > [Ethan Furman] > Forgive my ignorance, but how does one become a PSF member? That depends on which year you ask ;-) The current rules are here:

Re: [python-committers] Transfer of power

On Fri, Jul 13, 2018 at 6:54 PM, Tim Peters wrote: > [Larry Hastings] > ... >> >> However, once appointed, Elders are appointed is "for life". The only way >> to remove one would be for them to voluntarily step down--there would be no >> mechanism to remove one from office. (Perhaps this is too

Re: [python-committers] Transfer of power

On 07/13/2018 04:20 PM, Steve Dower wrote: On 13Jul2018 1600, Larry Hastings wrote: I disagree.  My proposal for Python's Council Of Elders is partially based on the Supreme Court Of The United States.  For example, SCOTUS judges are appointed for life, and I think PCOE members should be

Re: [python-committers] Transfer of power

On 13Jul2018 1600, Larry Hastings wrote: I disagree.  My proposal for Python's Council Of Elders is partially based on the Supreme Court Of The United States.  For example, SCOTUS judges are appointed for life, and I think PCOE members should be too. When SCOTUS renders a decision: * the

Re: [python-committers] Transfer of power

On 07/13/2018 03:30 PM, Barry Warsaw wrote: On Jul 13, 2018, at 15:11, Jack Jansen wrote: How about a triumvirate (or trium*ate if “vir” is seen as too male-centric, and actually the “3” isn’t important either) where unanimity is required for language changes (i.e. basically for accepting

Re: [python-committers] Transfer of power

On Jul 13, 2018, at 02:30, Anthony Baxter wrote: > > As someone who's not been involved for some time now, but was release manager > for a three or four years (2.3.1 through to 2.5.1), trying to have the > release manager also be a decider of potentially controversial things doesn't > seem

Re: [python-committers] Transfer of power

On Jul 13, 2018, at 15:11, Jack Jansen wrote: > > How about a triumvirate (or trium*ate if “vir” is seen as too male-centric, > and actually the “3” isn’t important either) where unanimity is required for > language changes (i.e. basically for accepting a PEP)? Possibly, but even if unanimity

Re: [python-committers] Transfer of power

A wild idea: How about a triumvirate (or trium*ate if “vir” is seen as too male-centric, and actually the “3” isn’t important either) where unanimity is required for language changes (i.e. basically for accepting a PEP)? A unanimity requirement will inevitably lead to more conservative

Re: [python-committers] Transfer of power

Oh, yeah, I guess I wasn’t clear there. I am not suggesting that release managers add this new responsibility. I’m suggesting that a release cycle length is an amount of time the community is used to dealing with, and therefore might make a good cadence for elections or whatever other rotation

Re: [python-committers] Transfer of power

As someone who's not been involved for some time now, but was release manager for a three or four years (2.3.1 through to 2.5.1), trying to have the release manager also be a decider of potentially controversial things doesn't seem scalable. Getting a release out is a heck of a lot of work, both

Re: [python-committers] Transfer of power

On 12 July 2018 at 15:57, Guido van Rossum wrote: > But I'm basically giving myself a permanent vacation from being BDFL, and you > all will be on your own. I just want to echo everyone else's sentiments and say thank you for all the work you've done, and for the example you've set to all of

Re: [python-committers] Transfer of power

On Thu, Jul 12, 2018 at 7:57 AM, Guido van Rossum wrote: I'll still be here, but I'm trying to let you all figure something out for > yourselves. I'm tired, and need a very long break. > Thank you, Guido, for being the BDFL of Python. As the title goes, it is for Life. :-) I wouldn't worry

Re: [python-committers] Transfer of power

On Fri., 13 Jul. 2018, 02:58 Guido van Rossum, wrote: > available. But I'm basically giving myself a permanent vacation from being > BDFL, and you all will be on your own. > Thank you for being here, benevolent, for so long . You've been a great example in our communities and it is much

Re: [python-committers] Transfer of power

(separate reply to discuss the "what do we do now" topic) On 07/12/2018 07:57 AM, Guido van Rossum wrote: I would like to remove myself entirely from the decision process. [...] I am not going to appoint a successor. So what are you all going to do? Create a democracy? Anarchy? A

Re: [python-committers] Transfer of power

> On Jul 12, 2018, at 2:27 PM, Raymond Hettinger > wrote: > > For the time being, I propose that we shift into low gear and defer major > language changes for a while +1 Not only do I think our first major decision should be how we make decisions now, but as the release manager of the

Re: [python-committers] Transfer of power

Thank you so much for creating a language that is much bigger than itself and for your passion and commitment along all these years. I hope you enjoy this well-deserved vacation :) Paraphrasing [this]( http://neopythonic.blogspot.com/2013/10/letter-to-young-programmer.html) letter of yours:

Re: [python-committers] Transfer of power

On 07/12/2018 12:28 PM, Barry Warsaw wrote: On Jul 12, 2018, at 12:16, Brett Cannon wrote: Maybe another way to label this is design stewards? We seem to be >> suggesting a cabal of folks who steward the overall design while >> relying on experts as appropriate to handle finer details. I

Re: [python-committers] Transfer of power

Per Antoine's comment: > That might be a minority view, but I don't think anyone except Guido > would be legitimate as a Python BDFL. Not even Tim or Barry ;-) I think all agree that there simply is no replacing Guido, there is only succeeding Guido and demonstrating that what he has built and

Re: [python-committers] Transfer of power

> On Jul 12, 2018, at 6:14 PM, Antoine Pitrou wrote: > > I think it would be worth studying the governance structure (*) of a > bunch of open source projects picked according to a set of criteria: > > - major project in # of users and contributors > - non BDFL-governed > - mostly

Re: [python-committers] Transfer of power

Guido, Thank you for creating Python. Thank you for giving me a second chance when I mouthed off to you. Thank you for trusting us enough to leave this great project in our hands. Thank you. -- ~Ethan~ ___ python-committers mailing list

Re: [python-committers] Transfer of power

On Thu, Jul 12, 2018 at 1:29 PM Brett Cannon wrote: > On Thu, 12 Jul 2018 at 10:42 Eric Snow wrote: >> In the short term we could appoint a *temporary* triumvirate to fill >> in as BDFL (with the intent to re-assess the situation in September if >> we haven't resolved on a permanent solution by

Re: [python-committers] Transfer of power

On Thu, 12 Jul 2018 at 10:42 Eric Snow wrote: > On Thu, Jul 12, 2018 at 10:55 AM Yury Selivanov > wrote: > > > > Thank you, Guido. This is a sad day for me personally; I really hoped > > you'd lead Python for a few more years. On the other hand, Python is > > in good hands, you've built a

Re: [python-committers] Transfer of power

On Jul 12, 2018, at 12:16, Brett Cannon wrote: > > Maybe another way to label this is design stewards? We seem to be suggesting > a cabal of folks who steward the overall design while relying on experts as > appropriate to handle finer details. I like that distinction. -Barry

Re: [python-committers] Transfer of power

On Jul 12, 2018, at 11:21, Tim Peters wrote: > > If Barry had been BDFL all along, only features useful to Mailman would have > gotten in ;-) I would have stuck around just long enough to kill off != diamonds-are-a-flufl’s-best-friend-ly y’rs, -Barry signature.asc Description: Message

Re: [python-committers] Transfer of power

Le 12/07/2018 à 21:17, Doug Hellmann a écrit : > > If the primary approach to decision making is to delegate unless > an arbiter is absolutely necessary, then long-term consistency and > stability comes less from finding individuals to commit to serving > for very long terms on the N-virate as

Re: [python-committers] Transfer of power

On Jul 12, 2018, at 11:16, Steven D'Aprano wrote: > > https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0401/ And of course, Uncle Timmy was the original FLUFL, before Guido and Brett did their nefarious edits. :) -Barry signature.asc Description: Message signed with OpenPGP

Re: [python-committers] Transfer of power

> On Jul 12, 2018, at 11:53 AM, Barry Warsaw > wrote: > > On Jul 12, 2018, at 07:57, Guido van Rossum > wrote: >> >> I would like to remove myself entirely from the decision process. I'll still >> be there for a while as an ordinary core

Re: [python-committers] Transfer of power

Excerpts from Christian Heimes's message of 2018-07-12 20:54:05 +0200: > On 2018-07-12 20:50, Brett Cannon wrote: > > IMHO the N-virate should primarily be responsible for delegation. > > > > Side note: I think we'll be talking less and less about language design, > > and instead

Re: [python-committers] Transfer of power

On Thu, 12 Jul 2018 at 11:53 Barry Warsaw wrote: > On Jul 12, 2018, at 07:57, Guido van Rossum wrote: > > > > I would like to remove myself entirely from the decision process. I'll > still be there for a while as an ordinary core dev, and I'll still be > available to mentor people -- possibly

Re: [python-committers] Transfer of power

On 2018-07-12 20:50, Brett Cannon wrote: > IMHO the N-virate should primarily be responsible for delegation. > > Side note: I think we'll be talking less and less about language design, > and instead about library and infrastructure design. > > > Same here. I suspect this will make

Re: [python-committers] Transfer of power

On Jul 12, 2018, at 07:57, Guido van Rossum wrote: > > I would like to remove myself entirely from the decision process. I'll still > be there for a while as an ordinary core dev, and I'll still be available to > mentor people -- possibly more available. But I'm basically giving myself a >

Re: [python-committers] Transfer of power

On 2018-07-12 20:02, Yury Selivanov wrote: > Another worry -- Guido knows mostly everything about all aspects of > Python design in all fields. To illustrate my point, I'm particularly > worried about async/await, asyncio/trio/twisted ecosystem -- so far it > seems that it's only Guido and I

Re: [python-committers] Transfer of power

On Thu, 12 Jul 2018 at 11:28 Antoine Pitrou wrote: > > Le 12/07/2018 à 20:22, Doug Hellmann a écrit : > > Excerpts from Brett Cannon's message of 2018-07-12 11:11:49 -0700: > >> On Thu, 12 Jul 2018 at 11:02 Yury Selivanov > wrote: > >> > >>> > >>> IOW I don't see anyone (or some group of 3) who

Re: [python-committers] Transfer of power

Hello, Le 2018-07-12 à 13:55, Neil Schemenauer a écrit : > The most important decision is what will we call this entity? ;-P > I'm sure Barry will have a good idea. Is a "cabal" the correct > term? I fear the general public may not get the self-mocking humour here. A note about

Re: [python-committers] Transfer of power

Le 12/07/2018 à 20:22, Doug Hellmann a écrit : > Excerpts from Brett Cannon's message of 2018-07-12 11:11:49 -0700: >> On Thu, 12 Jul 2018 at 11:02 Yury Selivanov wrote: >> >>> >>> IOW I don't see anyone (or some group of 3) who is as well-versed in >>> everything on Guido's level. That can be

Re: [python-committers] Transfer of power

Excerpts from Brett Cannon's message of 2018-07-12 11:11:49 -0700: > On Thu, 12 Jul 2018 at 11:02 Yury Selivanov wrote: > > > > > IOW I don't see anyone (or some group of 3) who is as well-versed in > > everything on Guido's level. That can be solved if Guido agrees to > > join the permanent

Re: [python-committers] Transfer of power

[Antoine Pitrou] > > That might be a minority view, but I don't think anyone except Guido > > would be legitimate as a Python BDFL. Not even Tim or Barry ;-) A majority view is probably an incorrect view anyway. If Barry had been BDFL all along, only features useful to Mailman would have

Re: [python-committers] Transfer of power

I'm sure I will have more (public) comments later, but for now I'd like to limit myself to one thing: On Thu, Jul 12, 2018 at 11:41:52AM -0600, Eric Snow wrote: > In the short term we could appoint a *temporary* triumvirate to fill > in as BDFL (with the intent to re-assess the situation in

Re: [python-committers] Transfer of power

On 12Jul2018 1102, Yury Selivanov wrote: IOW I don't see anyone (or some group of 3) who is as well-versed in everything on Guido's level. The actual solution is to ensure the members of the group are humble enough to admit this, and aware enough of the community to be able to identify and

Re: [python-committers] Transfer of power

On 12Jul2018 1104, Antoine Pitrou wrote: Le 12/07/2018 à 19:55, Brett Cannon a écrit : One other idea if we go the BDFL or triumvirate route is we could ask Guido to choose (if he's willing). I think Guido's key point is he wants us to choose how we want to keep this team going, but that may

Re: [python-committers] Transfer of power

On Thu, 12 Jul 2018 at 11:02 Yury Selivanov wrote: > On Thu, Jul 12, 2018 at 1:50 PM Brett Cannon wrote: > [..] > >> One way would be to re-elect them every 5 or so years. Essentially, > >> an N-virate is a dictator-like entity for a few years. > > > > > > But that doesn't help deal with

Re: [python-committers] Transfer of power

On Thu, Jul 12, 2018 at 2:04 PM Antoine Pitrou wrote: > > That might be a minority view, but I don't think anyone except Guido > would be legitimate as a Python BDFL. > +1 ___ python-committers mailing list python-committers@python.org

Re: [python-committers] Transfer of power

Le 12/07/2018 à 19:55, Brett Cannon a écrit : > > One other idea if we go the BDFL or triumvirate route is we could ask > Guido to choose (if he's willing). I think Guido's key point is he wants > us to choose how we want to keep this team going, but that may not > preclude us to essentially

Re: [python-committers] Transfer of power

On Thu, 12 Jul 2018 at 10:13 Mariatta Wijaya wrote: > Guido, > > Thank you for all you've done for Python. It is well deserved break. > > I'm sad, but I like to see this as an opportunity to further improve > Python and this community. > > My first instinct is to suggest: instead of one

Re: [python-committers] Transfer of power

On Thu, Jul 12, 2018 at 1:50 PM Brett Cannon wrote: [..] >> One way would be to re-elect them every 5 or so years. Essentially, >> an N-virate is a dictator-like entity for a few years. > > > But that doesn't help deal with inconsistency since that just means we have > consistency for 2

Re: [python-committers] Transfer of power

On Thu, Jul 12, 2018 at 8:41 PM, Eric Snow wrote: > Thank you for putting so much time, effort, and care into both the > language and its community! We cannot thank you enough. +1 > In the short term we could appoint a *temporary* triumvirate to fill > in as BDFL (with the intent to re-assess

Re: [python-committers] Transfer of power

On 2018-07-12, Yury Selivanov wrote: > One way would be to re-elect them every 5 or so years. Essentially, > an N-virate is a dictator-like entity for a few years. Modeling the body after a supreme court seems like a good idea. They don't have to make day-to-day decisions, only settle disputes

Re: [python-committers] Transfer of power

On Thu, Jul 12, 2018 at 11:55 AM Brett Cannon wrote: > One other idea if we go the BDFL or triumvirate route is we could ask Guido > to choose (if he's willing). I think Guido's key point is he wants us to > choose how we want to keep this team going, but that may not preclude us to >

Re: [python-committers] Transfer of power

On Thu, 12 Jul 2018 at 10:42 Eric Snow wrote: > On Thu, Jul 12, 2018 at 10:55 AM Yury Selivanov > wrote: > > > > Thank you, Guido. This is a sad day for me personally; I really hoped > > you'd lead Python for a few more years. On the other hand, Python is > > in good hands, you've built a

Re: [python-committers] Transfer of power

Excerpts from Yury Selivanov's message of 2018-07-12 13:29:21 -0400: > On Thu, Jul 12, 2018 at 12:58 PM Antoine Pitrou wrote: > > > > > > I'd like to point out that the N-virate idea doesn't handle a key issue: > > once you have a N-virate, how do you evolve its composition according to > > the

Re: [python-committers] Transfer of power

On Thu, Jul 12, 2018 at 10:55 AM Yury Selivanov wrote: > > Thank you, Guido. This is a sad day for me personally; I really hoped > you'd lead Python for a few more years. On the other hand, Python is > in good hands, you've built a large enough and diverse community > around it! +1 Thank you

Re: [python-committers] Transfer of power

On Thu, Jul 12, 2018 at 12:58 PM Antoine Pitrou wrote: > > > I'd like to point out that the N-virate idea doesn't handle a key issue: > once you have a N-virate, how do you evolve its composition according to > the implication and motivation of its members - but also to remarks or > frustation by

Re: [python-committers] Transfer of power

> On Jul 12, 2018, at 4:57 PM, Guido van Rossum wrote: > > I would like to remove myself entirely from the decision process. I'll still > be there for a while as an ordinary core dev, and I'll still be available to > mentor people -- possibly more available. But I'm basically giving myself

Re: [python-committers] Transfer of power

On 12Jul2018 0958, Antoine Pitrou wrote: I'd like to point out that the N-virate idea doesn't handle a key issue: once you have a N-virate, how do you evolve its composition according to the implication and motivation of its members - but also to remarks or frustation by non-virate contributors

Re: [python-committers] Transfer of power

Guido, Thank you for all you've done for Python. It is well deserved break. I'm sad, but I like to see this as an opportunity to further improve Python and this community. My first instinct is to suggest: instead of one successor, we will have several people as the new "leaders", perhaps a

Re: [python-committers] Transfer of power

I'd like to point out that the N-virate idea doesn't handle a key issue: once you have a N-virate, how do you evolve its composition according to the implication and motivation of its members - but also to remarks or frustation by non-virate contributors (especially new contributors who will feel

Re: [python-committers] Transfer of power

On Thu, Jul 12, 2018 at 7:57 AM, Guido van Rossum wrote: > Now that PEP 572 is done, I don't ever want to have to fight so hard for a > PEP and find that so many people despise my decisions. > > I would like to remove myself entirely from the decision process. I'll still > be there for a while as

Re: [python-committers] Transfer of power

Thank you, Guido. This is a sad day for me personally; I really hoped you'd lead Python for a few more years. On the other hand, Python is in good hands, you've built a large enough and diverse community around it! As for the new governing model, I imagine that we don't need to make any

Re: [python-committers] Transfer of power

On Thu, Jul 12, 2018 at 7:58 AM Guido van Rossum wrote: > Now that PEP 572 is done, I don't ever want to have to fight so hard for a > PEP and find that so many people despise my decisions. > > I would like to remove myself entirely from the decision process. I'll > still be there for a while as

Re: [python-committers] Transfer of power

On Thu, 12 Jul 2018 at 07:58 Guido van Rossum wrote: > Now that PEP 572 is done, I don't ever want to have to fight so hard for a > PEP and find that so many people despise my decisions. > > I would like to remove myself entirely from the decision process. I'll > still be there for a while as an

Re: [python-committers] Transfer of power

On 12/07/18 16:55, Christian Heimes wrote: On 2018-07-12 16:57, Guido van Rossum wrote: Now that PEP 572 is done, I don't ever want to have to fight so hard for a PEP and find that so many people despise my decisions. I would like to remove myself entirely from the decision process. I'll

Re: [python-committers] Transfer of power

On 12/07/18 15:57, Guido van Rossum wrote: Now that PEP 572 is done, I don't ever want to have to fight so hard for a PEP and find that so many people despise my decisions. I would like to remove myself entirely from the decision process. I'll still be there for a while as an ordinary core

Re: [python-committers] Transfer of power

Guido, > I would like to remove myself entirely from the decision process. I'll still > be there for a while as an ordinary core dev, and I'll still be available to > mentor people -- possibly more available. But I'm basically giving myself a > permanent vacation from being BDFL, and you all

Re: [python-committers] Transfer of power

I think it would be worth studying the governance structure (*) of a bunch of open source projects picked according to a set of criteria: - major project in # of users and contributors - non BDFL-governed - mostly volunteer-driven - with an established decision process for major enhancements

Re: [python-committers] Transfer of power

Hi, 2018-07-12 16:57 GMT+02:00 Guido van Rossum : > Now that PEP 572 is done, I don't ever want to have to fight so hard for a > PEP and find that so many people despise my decisions. Thank you for having solved the long standing issue of the PEP 572: taking a decision was the only way to stop

Re: [python-committers] Transfer of power

On 2018-07-12 16:57, Guido van Rossum wrote: > Now that PEP 572 is done, I don't ever want to have to fight so hard for > a PEP and find that so many people despise my decisions. > > I would like to remove myself entirely from the decision process. I'll > still be there for a while as an ordinary

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