On Thu, Dec 4, 2008 at 2:36 AM, Martin v. Löwis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I would like to merge mailing lists, now that the design and first
implementation of Python 3000 is complete. In particular, I would
+1
-Fred
--
Fred L. Drake, Jr.fdrake at gmail.com
Chaos is the score upon which
On Thu, Dec 4, 2008 at 3:24 AM, Barry Warsaw [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1
On Dec 3, 2008, at 9:13 PM, Dotan Cohen wrote:
On this page:
http://www.python.org/download/releases/3.0/
The text This is a proeuction release should probably read This is
Ondrej Certik wrote:
I tried to find the documentation here:
http://python.org/doc/
but clicking on the links:
http://docs.python.org/whatsnew/3.0.html
http://docs.python.org/3.0
These 404 for me as well. but the dev links have already rolled over to
3.1a0.
There are also no
vinay.sajip wrote:
+def _showwarning(message, category, filename, lineno, file=None, line=None):
+
+Implementation of showwarnings which redirects to logging, which will
first
+check to see if the file parameter is None. If a file is specified, it
will
+delegate to the
Martin v. Löwis wrote:
Any objections?
+1
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On Wed, Dec 03, 2008 at 08:51:33PM -0500, Barry Warsaw wrote:
On behalf of the Python development team and the Python community, I
am happy to announce the release of Python 3.0 final.
Yay!
We are confident that Python 3.0 is of the same high quality as our
previous releases, such as the
Nick Coghlan schrieb:
Ondrej Certik wrote:
I tried to find the documentation here:
http://python.org/doc/
but clicking on the links:
http://docs.python.org/whatsnew/3.0.html
http://docs.python.org/3.0
These 404 for me as well. but the dev links have already rolled over to
3.1a0.
Georg Brandl wrote:
Nick Coghlan schrieb:
Ondrej Certik wrote:
I tried to find the documentation here:
http://python.org/doc/
but clicking on the links:
http://docs.python.org/whatsnew/3.0.html
http://docs.python.org/3.0
These 404 for me as well. but the dev links have already rolled
2008/12/4 A.M. Kuchling [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
* that there will be a Python 2.7 that will incorporate what we learn from
people trying to port,
* that 3.1 will rearrange the standard library in mostly-known ways, and
* that we expect people to use 3.0 mostly for compatibility testing,
not
On Thu, Dec 4, 2008 at 2:36 AM, Martin v. Löwis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I would like to merge mailing lists, now that the design and first
implementation of Python 3000 is complete. In particular, I would
like to merge the python-3000 mailing list back into python-dev,
and the
Several people have asked about the patch and merge flow. Now that
Python 3.0 is out it's a bit more complicated.
Flow diagram
trunk --- release26-maint
\- py3k --- release30-maint
Patches for all versions of Python should land in the trunk. They are
then
Georg Brandl wrote:
I can't find any docs built for Python 3.0 (not 3.1a0).
The Windows installation has new 3.0 doc dated Dec 3, so it was built,
just not posted correctly.
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Guido van Rossum wrote:
Python 3.0 (a.k.a. Python 3000 or Py3k) represents a major milestone in
Python's history, and was nearly three years in the making. This is a new
version of the language that is incompatible with the 2.x line of releases,
I think this
while remaining true to BDFL
On Thu, Dec 4, 2008 at 3:12 PM, Christian Heimes [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Patches for all versions of Python should land in the trunk. They are then
merged into release26-maint and py3k branches. Changes for Python 3.0 are
merged via the py3k branch.
Thanks, Christian!
Questions:
(1) If I
On Thu, Dec 4, 2008 at 11:23 AM, Mark Dickinson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On Thu, Dec 4, 2008 at 3:12 PM, Christian Heimes [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Patches for all versions of Python should land in the trunk. They are then
merged into release26-maint and py3k branches. Changes for Python 3.0 are
On Wed, Dec 3, 2008 at 23:36, Martin v. Löwis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I would like to merge mailing lists, now that the design and first
implementation of Python 3000 is complete. In particular, I would
like to merge the python-3000 mailing list back into python-dev,
and the
On Thu, Dec 4, 2008 at 10:12 AM, Christian Heimes [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Several people have asked about the patch and merge flow. Now that Python
3.0 is out it's a bit more complicated.
Flow diagram
trunk --- release26-maint
\- py3k --- release30-maint
Christian Heimes wrote:
Several people have asked about the patch and merge flow. Now that
Python 3.0 is out it's a bit more complicated.
Flow diagram
trunk --- release26-maint
\- py3k --- release30-maint
Patches for all versions of Python should land in the
Dear All,
I have published the diff for my implementation of tainted mode in Python for
R3.0 (released version) at http://www.cats-muvva.net/software/. Look at the
bottom the page. I apologise for past problems accessing this web site: I
hope to have resolved all the issues with it.
Nicole
On Thu, Dec 4, 2008 at 12:52 PM, Eric Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Christian Heimes wrote:
Several people have asked about the patch and merge flow. Now that Python
3.0 is out it's a bit more complicated.
Flow diagram
trunk --- release26-maint
\- py3k ---
From: A.M. Kuchling [EMAIL PROTECTED]
I think we should also have a statement upon on python.org about
future plans: e.g.
* that there will be a Python 2.7 that will incorporate what we learn from
people trying to port,
* that 3.1 will rearrange the standard library in mostly-known ways, and
When I try to run this, I get:
Fatal Python error: Py_Initialize: can't initialize sys standard streams
Traceback (most recent call last):
File /home/fijal/lang/python/Python30/Lib/encodings/__init__.py,
line 31, in module
File /home/fijal/lang/python/Python30/Lib/codecs.py, line 1060, in
I opened up bug http://bugs.python.org/issue4006 a while ago and it was
suggested in the report that it's not a bug but a feature and so I
should come here to see about getting the feature changed :-)
I have a specific problem with os.environ and a somewhat less important
architectural issue with
On Thu, Dec 4, 2008 at 12:05, Frank Wierzbicki [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On Wed, Dec 3, 2008 at 10:31 AM, A.M. Kuchling [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
14:00 - 15:30
=
Two tracks:
Cross-implementation issues:
What do the various VMs want/need from CPython to help with their
On Thu, Dec 04, 2008 at 03:05:51PM -0500, Frank Wierzbicki wrote:
Cross-implementation issues:
I would like to champion this one.
Thanks! You're now listed as the champion for it.
--amk
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2008/12/4 Barry Warsaw [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
* that 3.1 will rearrange the standard library in mostly-known ways, and
* that we expect people to use 3.0 mostly for compatibility testing, not
going into serious production
use until 3.1 or maybe even 3.2.
The latter statement worries me. It
2008/12/4 Martin v. Löwis [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
Any objections?
The timing is right, go for it.
Paul
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On Thu, Dec 4, 2008 at 1:02 PM, Toshio Kuratomi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I opened up bug http://bugs.python.org/issue4006 a while ago and it was
suggested in the report that it's not a bug but a feature and so I
should come here to see about getting the feature changed :-)
I have a specific
On Thu, 4 Dec 2008 20:20:34 +, Paul Moore [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
2008/12/4 Barry Warsaw [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
[snip]
One thing I'd like to see more clearly stated is that there's no
reason NOT to use Python 3.0 for new code. I don't think that message
has really come across yet - in spite of
Terry Reedy wrote:
and this could give some people a mis-impression, most likely negative,
as to the magnitude and nature of the change. Most of the code I am now
writing would, I believe, run with 2.5 except for print(..., file=xxx).
And I know that there was concern for backward
* Adam Olsen wrote:
On Thu, Dec 4, 2008 at 1:02 PM, Toshio Kuratomi [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
I opened up bug http://bugs.python.org/issue4006 a while ago and it was
suggested in the report that it's not a bug but a feature and so I
should come here to see about getting the feature
A.M. Kuchling wrote:
* that 3.1 will rearrange the standard library in mostly-known ways, and
* that we expect people to use 3.0 mostly for compatibility testing,
not going into serious production use until 3.1 or maybe even 3.2.
As Raymond notes, this is probably too negative: for new
Adam Olsen wrote:
On Thu, Dec 4, 2008 at 1:02 PM, Toshio Kuratomi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I opened up bug http://bugs.python.org/issue4006 a while ago and it was
suggested in the report that it's not a bug but a feature and so I
should come here to see about getting the feature changed :-)
Toshio Kuratomi wrote:
The bug report I opened suggests creating a PEP to address this issue.
I think that's a good idea for whether os.listdir() and friends should
be changed to raise an exception but not having any way to get at some
environment variables seems like it's just a bug that
Benjamin Peterson schrieb:
On Thu, Dec 4, 2008 at 12:52 PM, Eric Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Christian Heimes wrote:
Several people have asked about the patch and merge flow. Now that Python
3.0 is out it's a bit more complicated.
Flow diagram
trunk --- release26-maint
Christian Heimes schrieb:
Several people have asked about the patch and merge flow. Now that
Python 3.0 is out it's a bit more complicated.
Flow diagram
trunk --- release26-maint
\- py3k --- release30-maint
Patches for all versions of Python should
On Thu, Dec 04, 2008 at 08:20:34PM +, Paul Moore wrote:
Hmm, looking back, the quote Raymond is referring to is just a
suggestion for additional text on the 3.0 page. I agree with him that
it's a bit too negative.
Actually I want it to be an entirely separate page so that we can
point
Martin v. Löwis wrote:
I would like to merge mailing lists, now that the design and first
implementation of Python 3000 is complete. In particular, I would
+1
--
Dmitry Vasiliev (dima at hlabs.spb.ru)
http://hlabs.spb.ru
___
Python-Dev mailing
On Thu, Dec 4, 2008 at 2:09 PM, André Malo [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
* Adam Olsen wrote:
On Thu, Dec 4, 2008 at 1:02 PM, Toshio Kuratomi [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
I opened up bug http://bugs.python.org/issue4006 a while ago and it was
suggested in the report that it's not a bug but a feature
From: A.M. Kuchling [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Perhaps the statement could say something like we do not expect
most Python packages will be ported to the 3.x series until
around the time 3.1 is released in X months. (where X=12? 6?)
I would leave out any discussion of 3.1. Its content and release
On Thu, Dec 4, 2008 at 13:21, Georg Brandl [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Benjamin Peterson schrieb:
On Thu, Dec 4, 2008 at 12:52 PM, Eric Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Christian Heimes wrote:
Several people have asked about the patch and merge flow. Now that Python
3.0 is out it's a bit more
Toshio Kuratomi wrote:
I opened up bug http://bugs.python.org/issue4006 a while ago and it was
suggested in the report that it's not a bug but a feature and so I
should come here to see about getting the feature changed :-)
It does you no good and (and will irritate others) to conflate 'design
On Thu, Dec 4, 2008 at 2:19 PM, Nick Coghlan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Toshio Kuratomi wrote:
The bug report I opened suggests creating a PEP to address this issue.
I think that's a good idea for whether os.listdir() and friends should
be changed to raise an exception but not having any way to
On Thu, Dec 4, 2008 at 13:07, Nick Coghlan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Terry Reedy wrote:
and this could give some people a mis-impression, most likely negative,
as to the magnitude and nature of the change. Most of the code I am now
writing would, I believe, run with 2.5 except for print(...,
Adam Olsen wrote:
On Thu, Dec 4, 2008 at 2:09 PM, André Malo [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
* Adam Olsen wrote:
On Thu, Dec 4, 2008 at 1:02 PM, Toshio Kuratomi [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
I opened up bug http://bugs.python.org/issue4006 a while ago and it was
suggested in the report that it's not a
* Adam Olsen wrote:
On Thu, Dec 4, 2008 at 2:09 PM, André Malo [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Here's an example which will become popular soon, I guess: CGI scripts
and, of course WSGI applications. All those get their environment in an
unknown encoding. In the worst case one can blow up the
Terry Reedy wrote:
Toshio Kuratomi wrote:
I opened up bug http://bugs.python.org/issue4006 a while ago and it was
suggested in the report that it's not a bug but a feature and so I
should come here to see about getting the feature changed :-)
It does you no good and (and will irritate
2008/12/4 Raymond Hettinger [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
Also, we don't know the timing of the third-party updates.
Some may never get converted. Some may convert quickly
and easily. Someone (perhaps me) may organize a series of
funded sprints to get many of the major packages converted.
One piece of
On Thu, Dec 4, 2008 at 3:47 PM, André Malo [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
* Adam Olsen wrote:
On Thu, Dec 4, 2008 at 2:09 PM, André Malo [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Here's an example which will become popular soon, I guess: CGI scripts
and, of course WSGI applications. All those get their
Adam Olsen wrote:
On Thu, Dec 4, 2008 at 2:19 PM, Nick Coghlan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Toshio Kuratomi wrote:
The bug report I opened suggests creating a PEP to address this issue.
I think that's a good idea for whether os.listdir() and friends should
be changed to raise an exception but not
I can't find any docs built for Python 3.0 (not 3.1a0).
The Windows installation has new 3.0 doc dated Dec 3, so it was built,
just not posted correctly.
That doesn't mean very much. I built it on my local machine. Anybody
with subversion and python could do that; the documentation is in
ISTM, 3.0 is in pretty good shape. There is nothing intrinsically wrong
with it.
I think it has many bugs, some known before the release, but many more
yet to show up. I agree that the design is good; the implementation will
certainly improve (I deliberately didn't say could have been better,
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1
On Dec 4, 2008, at 6:21 PM, Martin v. Löwis wrote:
I can't find any docs built for Python 3.0 (not 3.1a0).
The Windows installation has new 3.0 doc dated Dec 3, so it was
built,
just not posted correctly.
That doesn't mean very much. I built
Hello,
On Thu, Dec 4, 2008 at 19:36, Nicole King [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Dear All,
I have published the diff for my implementation of tainted mode in Python for
R3.0 (released version) at http://www.cats-muvva.net/software/. Look at the
bottom the page. I apologise for past problems
trunk --- release26-maint
\- py3k --- release30-maint
As a side-note: this merging flow means that bugfix and feature commits
may never be merged from trunk to py3k in one svnmerge batch. Else,
they cannot be separated when merging from py3k to 30-maint.
True.
Hello,
The thing is pypy's taint code is broken. Basically you don't only
need to patch all places that return pyobject, but also all places
that might modify anything. (All side effects) For example innocently
looking call to addition might end up calling arbitrary python code
(and have
In the bug report I opened, I listed four ways to fix this along with
the pros and cons:
I'm in favour of a different, fifth solution:
5) represent all environment variables in Unicode strings,
including the ones that currently fail to decode.
(then do the same to file names, then drop
Martin v. Löwis wrote:
I would like to merge mailing lists, now that the design and first
implementation of Python 3000 is complete. In particular, I would
like to merge the python-3000 mailing list back into python-dev,
and the python-3000-checkins mailing list back into python-checkins.
The
On Thu, Dec 4, 2008 at 3:16 PM, Brett Cannon [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On Thu, Dec 4, 2008 at 12:05, Frank Wierzbicki [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On Wed, Dec 3, 2008 at 10:31 AM, A.M. Kuchling [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
14:00 - 15:30
=
Two tracks:
Cross-implementation issues:
What
Toshio Kuratomi wrote:
I would think life would be ultimately easier if either the file server
or the shell server automatically translated file names from jis and
utf8 and back, so that the PATH on the *nix shell server is entirely
utf8.
This is not possible because no part of the computer
2008/12/4 Raymond Hettinger [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
Also, we don't know the timing of the third-party updates.
Some may never get converted. Some may convert quickly
and easily. Someone (perhaps me) may organize a series of
funded sprints to get many of the major packages converted.
From: Paul
Raymond Hettinger wrote:
From: A.M. Kuchling [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Perhaps the statement could say something like we do not expect
most Python packages will be ported to the 3.x series until around the
time 3.1 is released in X months. (where X=12? 6?)
I would leave out any discussion of 3.1.
Nick Coghlan wrote:
Terry Reedy wrote:
and this could give some people a mis-impression, most likely negative,
as to the magnitude and nature of the change. Most of the code I am now
writing would, I believe, run with 2.5 except for print(..., file=xxx).
And I know that there was concern for
On Dec 4, 2008, at 6:39 PM, Martin v. Löwis wrote:
I'm in favour of a different, fifth solution:
5) represent all environment variables in Unicode strings,
including the ones that currently fail to decode.
(then do the same to file names, then drop the byte-oriented
file operations
James Y Knight wrote:
On Dec 4, 2008, at 6:39 PM, Martin v. Löwis wrote:
I'm in favour of a different, fifth solution:
5) represent all environment variables in Unicode strings,
including the ones that currently fail to decode.
(then do the same to file names, then drop the byte-oriented
On Thu, Dec 4, 2008 at 6:14 PM, James Y Knight [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On Dec 4, 2008, at 6:39 PM, Martin v. Löwis wrote:
I'm in favour of a different, fifth solution:
5) represent all environment variables in Unicode strings,
including the ones that currently fail to decode.
(then do
On Thu, Dec 04, 2008 at 05:29:31PM -0800, Raymond Hettinger wrote:
Here's a bright idea. On the 3.0 release page, include a box listing
which major third-party apps have been converted. Update it
once every couple of weeks. That way, we're not explicitly
That's an excellent idea. We could
Does anyone know what Mono does here? Presumably they have the exact same
problem as all strings in .NET are Unicode, and filenames/env vars/etc...
are always strings.
Maybe if it's gotta be broken at least it can be broken in a manner
that's consistent with others :)
-Original
On 02:08 am, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
James Y Knight wrote:
On Dec 4, 2008, at 6:39 PM, Martin v. L�wis wrote:
I'm in favour of a different, fifth solution:
5) represent all environment variables in Unicode strings,
including the ones that currently fail to decode.
(then do the same to
On 02:32 am, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On Thu, Dec 4, 2008 at 6:14 PM, James Y Knight [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
FWIW, I still agree with Martin that that's the most reasonable
solution.
It died because nobody presented a viable solution, and I maintain no
solution is possible. All
On 02:35 am, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On Thu, Dec 04, 2008 at 05:29:31PM -0800, Raymond Hettinger wrote:
Here's a bright idea. On the 3.0 release page, include a box listing
which major third-party apps have been converted. Update it
once every couple of weeks. That way, we're not
On Dec 4, 2008, at 10:59 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
It occurs to me that this specific idea (the box with the list of
supported applications / libraries) should be implementable as a
simple query against PyPI. I don't know if it actually is :), but
it should be. In general it would be
I hear some folks are considering advertising 3.0 as experimental or
not ready for serious use yet.
I think that's too negative -- we should encourage people to use it,
period. They'll have to decide for themselves whether they can live
with the lack of ported 3rd party libraries -- which may
On Thu, Dec 4, 2008 at 8:55 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On 02:32 am, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On Thu, Dec 4, 2008 at 6:14 PM, James Y Knight [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
FWIW, I still agree with Martin that that's the most reasonable solution.
It died because nobody presented a viable
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1
Hot on the heals of Python 3.0 comes the Python 2.6.1 bug-fix
release. This is the latest production-ready version in the Python
2.6 family. Dozens of issues have fixed since Python 2.6 final was
released in October. Please see the NEWS file
On Dec 4, 2008, at 6:39 PM, Martin v. Löwis wrote:
I'm in favour of a different, fifth solution:
5) represent all environment variables in Unicode strings,
including the ones that currently fail to decode.
(then do the same to file names, then drop the byte-oriented
file operations
On 4 Dec, 07:12 pm, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
The latter statement worries me. It seems to unnecessarily undermine
adoption of 3.0. It essentially says, don't use this. Is that what
we want?
I think so. The default case, the case of the user without the
wherewithal to understand the
On Thu, Dec 4, 2008 at 10:14 PM, Guido van Rossum [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
At the risk of bringing up something that was already rejected, let me
propose something that follows the path taken in 3.0 for filenames,
rather than doubling back:
For os.environ, os.getenv() and os.putenv(), I think
On Thu, Dec 4, 2008 at 9:40 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
The default case, the case of the user without the wherewithal
to understand the nuances of the distinction between 2.x and 3.x, is a user
who should use 2.x.
Not at all clear. If they're not sensitive to those nuances it's just
as
On Thu, Dec 4, 2008 at 9:46 PM, Adam Olsen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On Thu, Dec 4, 2008 at 10:14 PM, Guido van Rossum [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On Windows, the bytes APIs should probably not exist.
-0. I'd prefer byte APIs return UTF-16 bytes and the unicode APIs
become validating.
-1 on
Let's bring out all the same arguments, come to no conclusion, and let
it taper off unresolved, yet again! :)
This time, it will be different. I will write a PEP, and will request
that anybody proposing an alternative solution also write a PEP (and
no change is made to the code before the PEPs
Please, if you have a *new* idea that doesn't have a failure mode, by
all means post it. But don't resurrect a pointless bikeshed.
While I completely agree that it is pointless to reiterate the same
arguments over and over, I disagree that the bikeshed metapher applies.
This metapher (IIUC)
On 04:16 am, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I hear some folks are considering advertising 3.0 as experimental or
not ready for serious use yet.
With all due respect, for me, library support and serious use are
synonymous. When prompted I would say that 2.5 is probably the version
that a new
Here's a bright idea. On the 3.0 release page, include a box listing
which major third-party apps have been converted. Update it
once every couple of weeks. That way, we're not explicitly
discouraging adoption of 3.0, we're just listing what support is
then currently available (if you need
On Dec 5, 2008, at 2:27 AM, Martin v. Löwis wrote:
There is. There have been the following trove classifiers defined for
a few weeks now:
Wonderful! Thanks for clueing me in. I'll update my projects to use
those in future releases.
-Fred
--
Fred Drake fdrake at acm.org
On 06:05 am, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On Thu, Dec 4, 2008 at 9:40 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
The default case, the case of the user without the wherewithal
to understand the nuances of the distinction between 2.x and 3.x, is a
user
who should use 2.x.
Not at all clear. If they're not
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