On Wed, Jan 13, 2021 at 6:11 PM Ethan Furman wrote:
>
> On 1/12/21 10:37 PM, Chris Angelico wrote:
> > On Wed, Jan 13, 2021 at 5:05 PM Steven D'Aprano wrote:
> >>
> >> On Wed, Jan 13, 2021 at 04:47:06AM +1100, Chris Angelico wrote:
> >>
> >>> That'd leave open
> >>> the option for "foo() if x else
Hello,
On Wed, 13 Jan 2021 05:04:36 -
"Jim J. Jewett" wrote:
> Paul Sokolovsky wrote:
> > Ok, let's take "module attribute" as an example. Why do you think
> > there's anything wrong with this code:
> > ==
> > import config
> > from .types import *
> > if config.SUPPORT_BIGINT:
> > v
On 1/12/21 10:37 PM, Chris Angelico wrote:
On Wed, Jan 13, 2021 at 5:05 PM Steven D'Aprano wrote:
On Wed, Jan 13, 2021 at 04:47:06AM +1100, Chris Angelico wrote:
That'd leave open
the option for "foo() if x else foo()" to be optimized down to just
"foo()", although I don't think that particul
On Wed, Jan 13, 2021 at 5:05 PM Steven D'Aprano wrote:
>
> On Wed, Jan 13, 2021 at 04:47:06AM +1100, Chris Angelico wrote:
>
> > That'd leave open
> > the option for "foo() if x else foo()" to be optimized down to just
> > "foo()", although I don't think that particular one is needed.
>
> That wou
On Wed, Jan 13, 2021 at 04:47:06AM +1100, Chris Angelico wrote:
> That'd leave open
> the option for "foo() if x else foo()" to be optimized down to just
> "foo()", although I don't think that particular one is needed.
That would be an unsafe optimization. Not all objets are representable
as tru
On 13/01/21 3:31 pm, Larry Hastings wrote:
Let's say we put those behind a from __future__
import. Now we're gonna write library code that examines annotations.
A user passes in a class and asks us to examine its annotations. The
old semantics might be active on it, or the new ones. How d
Paul Sokolovsky wrote:
> Ok, let's take "module attribute" as an example. Why do you think
> there's anything wrong with this code:
> ==
> import config
> from .types import *
> if config.SUPPORT_BIGINT:
> var: bigint = 1
> else:
> var: int64 = 1
"Wrong" is too strong, but it would be bett
On Tue, 2021-01-12 at 20:09 -0800, Guido van Rossum wrote:
> On Tue, Jan 12, 2021 at 8:00 PM Brett Cannon
> wrote:
> >
> > > * It turns a None annotation into type(None). Which means now
> > > you
> > > can't tell the difference between "None" and "type(None)".
> > >
> > Huh, I wasn't aware of
On Tue, Jan 12, 2021 at 8:00 PM Brett Cannon wrote:
>
>
>>- It turns a None annotation into type(None). Which means now you
>>can't tell the difference between "None" and "type(None)".
>>
>> Huh, I wasn't aware of that.
>
This has tripped up many people. Maybe we should just bite the bu
On Tue, Jan 12, 2021 at 6:31 PM Larry Hastings wrote:
>
> On 1/12/21 5:28 PM, Brett Cannon wrote:
>
> The other thing to keep in mind is we are talking about every module,
> class, and function getting 64 bytes ... which I bet isn't that much.
>
> Actually it's only every module and class. Funct
On Tue, Jan 12, 2021 at 6:35 PM Larry Hastings wrote:
>
> On 1/12/21 5:28 PM, Brett Cannon wrote:
>
> The other thing to keep in mind is we are talking about every module,
> class, and function getting 64 bytes ... which I bet isn't that much.
>
> Actually it's only every module and class. Funct
On 1/12/21 5:28 PM, Brett Cannon wrote:
The other thing to keep in mind is we are talking about every module,
class, and function getting 64 bytes ... which I bet isn't that much.
Actually it's only every module and class. Functions don't have this
problem because they've always stored __ann
On Wed, Jan 13, 2021 at 1:47 AM Larry Hastings wrote:
>
> On 1/11/21 5:33 PM, Inada Naoki wrote:
>
> Note that PEP 563 semantics allows more efficient implementation.
> Annotation is just a single constant tuple, not a dict.
> We already have the efficient implementation for Python 3.10.
>
> The e
On Tue, Jan 12, 2021 at 9:51 AM Chris Angelico wrote:
> On Wed, Jan 13, 2021 at 4:24 AM Richard Damon
> wrote:
> >
> > On 1/12/21 10:53 AM, Mark Shannon wrote:
> > > Hi everyone,
> > >
> > > Should the optimizer eliminate tests that it can prove have no effect
> > > on the control flow of the pr
On Mon, Jan 11, 2021 at 5:57 PM Larry Hastings wrote:
>
> On 1/11/21 5:05 PM, Greg Ewing wrote:
>
> On 12/01/21 6:22 am, Larry Hastings wrote:
>
> * The language will set __annotations__ to a dict if the object has
>
>annotations, or None if it has no annotations.
>
>
> That sounds inconveni
On 1/12/21 3:53 PM, Greg Ewing wrote:
On 13/01/21 5:47 am, Larry Hastings wrote:
instead of the compiler storing a code object as the annotations
argument to MAKE_FUNCTION, store a tuple containing the fields you'd
need to /recreate/ the code object at runtime--bytecode, lnotab,
names, cons
On Wed, Jan 13, 2021 at 02:53:30AM +0300, Ivan Pozdeev via Python-Dev wrote:
> > I support keeping same Sphinx version across all the supported python
> > versions.
>
> This is not a sustainable route since this way, there's no way to change the
> version at all.
>
By supported, I mean the act
On 13.01.2021 2:47, Senthil Kumaran wrote:
On Wed, Jan 13, 2021 at 12:28:42AM +0100, Victor Stinner wrote:
The alternative is to keep Sphinx 2 support, use
strip_signature_backslash and don't use :no-trim-doctest-flags: ?
+1. :no-trim-doctest-flags: was introduced to python docs only recentl
On 13/01/21 5:47 am, Larry Hastings wrote:
instead of the compiler storing a code object as the annotations
argument to MAKE_FUNCTION, store a tuple containing the fields you'd
need to /recreate/ the code object at runtime--bytecode, lnotab, names,
consts, etc.
Would that tuple be significa
On 13. 01. 21 0:28, Victor Stinner wrote:
I looked at Sphinx and Python versions of Debian, Ubuntu and Fedora:
https://bugs.python.org/issue42843#msg384963
In my list, there is only Debian Buster (stable) which doesn't have
Sphinx 3 yet. It uses Python 3.7 and so would not be affected by
Python
On 13/01/21 6:54 am, Larry Hastings wrote:
Note that this only works in the current version of the PEP / prototype,
where annotations are strictly evaluated in module scope. If we start
supporting closures, those need "cell" objects, which IIUC can't be
marshalled.
The cells belong to the en
On Wed, Jan 13, 2021 at 12:28:42AM +0100, Victor Stinner wrote:
> The alternative is to keep Sphinx 2 support, use
> strip_signature_backslash and don't use :no-trim-doctest-flags: ?
+1. :no-trim-doctest-flags: was introduced to python docs only recently, so not
using that is a reasonable suggest
Since documentation changes are backported to 3.8 and 3.9 stable
branches, if we increase the minimum required Sphinx version in
master, I would prefer to also increase it in 3.8 and 3.9 branches.
I would prefer to not have to check manually if a doc backport PR is
still compatible with Sphinx 2 o
On Tue, Jan 12, 2021 at 08:38:17PM +, Julien Palard via Python-Dev wrote:
> - Some functions declarations are lacking a backslash, like
>print(*objects, sep=' ', end='n', ...
>
> Which is bad.
Wouldn't this a bug with Sphinx?
Why would that be special cased with a flag (strip_signature_b
On Tue, Jan 12, 2021 at 11:31 AM Jim J. Jewett wrote:
> Larry Hastings wrote:
> > The control-flow exclusion is for /module//attribute/ or /class
> > attribute/ annotations:
> > class C:
> >if random.random() > 0.5:
> > my_attr:int=3
> >else:
> > my_attr2:float=3.5
>
> That very
On 1/12/21 12:16 PM, Paul Bryan wrote:
On Tue, 2021-01-12 at 09:54 -0800, Larry Hastings wrote:
Note that this only works in the current version of the PEP /
prototype, where annotations are strictly evaluated in module scope.
If we start supporting closures, those need "cell" objects, whic
During the development of cpython 3.10, Sphinx was bumped to 3.2.1.
Problem is Sphinx 3 have some incompatibilities with Sphinx 2, some that
we could work around, some are bit harder, so we may need to bump
`needs_sphinx = '3.2'` (currently it is 1.8).
I found two incompatibilities:
- We're us
Hello,
On Mon, 11 Jan 2021 13:44:45 -0800
Larry Hastings wrote:
> The control-flow exclusion is for /module//attribute/ or /class
> attribute/ annotations:
>
> class C:
> if random.random() > 0.5:
> my_attr:int=3
> else:
> my_attr2:float=3.5
Ok, let's take
On Tue, 2021-01-12 at 09:54 -0800, Larry Hastings wrote:
> Note that this only works in the current version of the PEP /
> prototype, where annotations are strictly evaluated in module scope.
> If we start supporting closures, those need "cell" objects, which
> IIUC can't be marshalled.
Since the
On 1/12/21 8:23 PM, Neil Schemenauer wrote:
On 2021-01-12, Pablo Galindo Salgado wrote:
One worry that I have in general with this move is the usage of
_PyType_GetModuleByDef to get the type object from the module
definition. This normally involves getting a TLS in every instance
creation, wh
On 2021-01-12, Petr Viktorin wrote:
> Unfortunately, it's not just the creation that needs to be changed.
> You also need to decref Foo_Type somewhere.
Add the type to the module dict?
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On 1/12/21 11:26 AM, Jim J. Jewett wrote:
If I understand correctly, the problem is that you can't store multiple
alternative annotations on my_attr. Therefore:
class C:
my_attr:(int if random.random > 0.5 else float)
should be OK, because there is only a single annotation.
S
On 2021-01-12, Pablo Galindo Salgado wrote:
> One worry that I have in general with this move is the usage of
> _PyType_GetModuleByDef to get the type object from the module
> definition. This normally involves getting a TLS in every instance
> creation, which can impact notably performance for som
Larry Hastings wrote:
> The control-flow exclusion is for /module//attribute/ or /class
> attribute/ annotations:
> class C:
> if random.random() > 0.5:
> my_attr:int=3
> else:
> my_attr2:float=3.5
That very example would be helpful in the FAQ, though I understand if you're
conce
Having used the heap types extensively for JPype, I believe that converting all
types too heap types would be a great benefit. There are still minor rough
spots in which a static type can do things that heap types cannot (such as you
can derive a type which is marked final when it is static but
On Tue, 12 Jan 2021 18:48:39 +
Pablo Galindo Salgado wrote:
> One worry that I have in general with this move
> is the usage of _PyType_GetModuleByDef to get the type object
> from the module definition. This normally involves getting a TLS in every
> instance creation,
> which can impact nota
On 1/12/21 7:48 PM, Pablo Galindo Salgado wrote:
One worry that I have in general with this move
is the usage of _PyType_GetModuleByDef to get the type object
from the module definition. This normally involves getting a TLS in
every instance creation,
Not TLS, it's walking the MRO.
which can
On 1/12/21 7:16 PM, Neil Schemenauer wrote:
On 2021-01-12, Victor Stinner wrote:
It seems like a safer approach is to continue the work on
bpo-40077: "Convert static types to PyType_FromSpec()".
I agree that trying to convert static types is a good idea. Another
possible bonus might be that w
One worry that I have in general with this move
is the usage of _PyType_GetModuleByDef to get the type object
from the module definition. This normally involves getting a TLS in every
instance creation,
which can impact notably performance for some perf-sensitive types or types
that are created a l
On 2021-01-12, Victor Stinner wrote:
> It seems like a safer approach is to continue the work on
> bpo-40077: "Convert static types to PyType_FromSpec()".
I agree that trying to convert static types is a good idea. Another
possible bonus might be that we can gain some performance by
integrating g
Given all the effort that get_type_hints() puts into evaluating those
strings it seems important to spell out explicitly that they're not
special. (IIRC they *are* special in PEP 563.)
On Tue, Jan 12, 2021 at 8:56 AM Larry Hastings wrote:
>
> Yes, PEP 649 is completely agnostic about what values
On 1/12/21 8:47 AM, Larry Hastings wrote:
It seems possible to create a hybrid of these two approaches! Here's
my idea: instead of the compiler storing a code object as the
annotations argument to MAKE_FUNCTION, store a tuple containing the
fields you'd need to /recreate/ the code object at ru
On Wed, Jan 13, 2021 at 4:24 AM Richard Damon wrote:
>
> On 1/12/21 10:53 AM, Mark Shannon wrote:
> > Hi everyone,
> >
> > Should the optimizer eliminate tests that it can prove have no effect
> > on the control flow of the program, even if that may eliminate some
> > side effects in __bool__()?
>
On 1/12/21 10:53 AM, Mark Shannon wrote:
> Hi everyone,
>
> Should the optimizer eliminate tests that it can prove have no effect
> on the control flow of the program, even if that may eliminate some
> side effects in __bool__()?
>
> For several years we have converted
>
> if a and b:
>
Yes, PEP 649 is completely agnostic about what values you put in as
annotations. You can put in strings, complex objects,
expressions--whatever you put in, you get back out later.
I'm happy to add some text to the PEP if this needs clarifying; I just
thought it was obvious.
Cheers,
//a
On 1/11/21 5:33 PM, Inada Naoki wrote:
Note that PEP 563 semantics allows more efficient implementation.
Annotation is just a single constant tuple, not a dict.
We already have the efficient implementation for Python 3.10.
The efficient implementation in 3.10 can share tuples. If there are
hund
On 1/11/21 5:37 PM, Larry Hastings wrote:
I'll have to let people with large code bases speak up about this, but
my understanding is that most people would prefer Python to use less
memory. On my 64-bit Linux machine, a code object is 136 bytes, its
empty __dict__ is 64 bytes, [...]
Oops:
On 1/12/21 4:34 PM, Antoine Pitrou wrote:
On Tue, 12 Jan 2021 15:22:36 +0100
Petr Viktorin wrote:
On 1/11/21 5:26 PM, Victor Stinner wrote:
Hi,
There are multiple PEPs covering heap types. The latest one refers to
other PEPs: PEP 630 "Isolating Extension Modules" by Petr Viktorin.
https://
On 1/12/21 4:09 PM, Victor Stinner wrote:
On Tue, Jan 12, 2021 at 3:28 PM Petr Viktorin wrote:
If a type is immutable and has no references to heap-allocated objects,
it could stay as a static type.
The issue is that very many types don't fit that. For example, if some
method needs to raise a
Hi everyone,
Should the optimizer eliminate tests that it can prove have no effect on
the control flow of the program, even if that may eliminate some side
effects in __bool__()?
For several years we have converted
if a and b:
...
to
if a:
if b:
...
whi
On Tue, 12 Jan 2021 15:22:36 +0100
Petr Viktorin wrote:
> On 1/11/21 5:26 PM, Victor Stinner wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> > There are multiple PEPs covering heap types. The latest one refers to
> > other PEPs: PEP 630 "Isolating Extension Modules" by Petr Viktorin.
> > https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep
On Tue, Jan 12, 2021 at 3:28 PM Petr Viktorin wrote:
> If a type is immutable and has no references to heap-allocated objects,
> it could stay as a static type.
> The issue is that very many types don't fit that. For example, if some
> method needs to raise a module-specific exception, that's a re
Simon Cross wrote:
> We've run into some minor issues with the limitations in PyType_Slot
> (https://docs.python.org/3/c-api/type.html#c.PyType_Slot.PyType_Slot.slot)
> but we are working around them for the moment.
> It would be useful to have some sense of where PyType_FromSpec is
> headed -- e.g
On 1/11/21 5:26 PM, Victor Stinner wrote:
Hi,
There are multiple PEPs covering heap types. The latest one refers to
other PEPs: PEP 630 "Isolating Extension Modules" by Petr Viktorin.
https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0630/#motivation
The use case is to embed multiple Python instances (interp
12.01.21 03:21, Larry Hastings пише:
> I forgot about __slots__! Yup, it's optional, and you can even delete
> it, though after the class is defined I'm not sure how much difference
> that makes.
It affects pickling if __slotnames__ is not set yet. The latter is set
when you pickle or copy an ins
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