[Python-Dev] Re: Switching to Discourse
On Fri, Jul 15, 2022 at 12:15 PM Barry Warsaw wrote: > I agree that the experiment has proven successful enough that there’s more > value at this point in consolidating discussions. We've only been running this experiment since 2017(?) so maybe it's too soon to say it's a success? -eric ___ Python-Dev mailing list -- python-dev@python.org To unsubscribe send an email to python-dev-le...@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-dev.python.org/ Message archived at https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-dev@python.org/message/D5S72W7HCKGJ5FMNPLCK35XHQEMIA4XH/ Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
[Python-Dev] Re: Switching to Discourse
On Fri, Jul 15, 2022 at 5:21 AM Petr Viktorin wrote: > The Steering Council would like to switch from python-dev to > discuss.python.org. This seems like a net win for the community so +1 from me. (For me personally it amounts to disruption with little advantage, so I'd probably be -0). However, I am not python-dev and discuss.python.org is probably a better fit for most of the participants.) (Message threading on discuss.python.org feels like a step backward in usability though. This is especially true with long threads, support for which (I expect) Discourse has not prioritized.) My only real concern is one I've brought up before when we started splitting discussions onto DPO (discuss.python.org), as well as with the GitHub issues migration: message archives. I consider the ability to search message archives to be essential to effective contribution, both in attracting/integrating new contributors and in providing "offline" context for active contributors. The existing archives have aided me personally so many times in both ways. There are relevant three aspects to archival and search that are worth asking about here: 1. search functionality on the [archive] web site 2. ability to search using other tools (e.g. my favorite: Google search with "site:...") 3. single archive vs. split archive Regarding (1), currently it is relatively easy to search through message archives on https://mail.python.org/archives/list/ The DPO UI search functionality seems fine. Regarding (2), currently it's easy to search using other tools and the results are clean (not noisy). With DPO, is that possible? (A quick attempt was a complete failure.) Would the results be good enough? Would they be noisier? Regarding (3), it's a small thing but, IMHO, having a single archive is valuable. Most notably (for me, at least), with a split archive it becomes a little harder to make sure searches covered the full message history of a given channel. It would be nice if at least one of the sites could preserve *all* the history. In the case of python-dev, either we'd forward all relevant DPO messages to python-dev@python.org (or otherwise directly send them to https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-dev@python.org) or we'd import the archived mailing list into DPO. Or maybe it would require more work than it would be worth? > - You can use discuss.python.org's “mailing list mode” (which subscribes > you to all new posts), possibly with filtering and/or categorizing > messages locally. FWIW, I've been using mailing list mode (for consumption) since we started discuss.python.org and it's been fine. I've hit a couple[1][2] minor annoyances, but overall I don't have any real complaints. Mailing list mode is straightforward to configure, the messages have a "mailing list" header set (for easy filtering), and jumping over to the web UI to start a thread, respond (or react) is trivial. -eric [1] My mobile email notifications format the messages weird. [2] The messages are significantly noisier than regular (text) email. ___ Python-Dev mailing list -- python-dev@python.org To unsubscribe send an email to python-dev-le...@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-dev.python.org/ Message archived at https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-dev@python.org/message/HA47EERV3V5AUGJDFC5BQEZYYR5PYURN/ Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
[Python-Dev] Re: Switching to Discourse
On Mon, Jul 18, 2022 at 11:48 AM wrote: > LLVM did the same recently (though they imported all previous messages from > the mailinglist, thus making them searchable in discourse) [2 - announcement; > 3 - retro], and by and large, I think it was a success. > > One of the comments in the retro was: > > Searching the archives is much easier and have found me many old threads > > that I probably would have problem finding before since I haven’t been > > subscribed for that long. > > I that it would be worth considering importing the mailing list into a > separate discourse category that's then archived, but at least searchable. > This would also lower the hurdle of new(er) contributors to investigate > previous discussion on a given topic. +1 -eric ___ Python-Dev mailing list -- python-dev@python.org To unsubscribe send an email to python-dev-le...@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-dev.python.org/ Message archived at https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-dev@python.org/message/32TYER52AV527DSZBTYGZMFRZR25BNR2/ Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
[Python-Dev] Re: compiling errors, SSL
On Tue, Jul 19, 2022 at 2:17 PM Kevin T via Python-Dev < python-dev@python.org> wrote: > I have built this on systems at work, that are populated by CAD guys who > have developed a good set of libraries to maintain in a linux > distribution. Went without a hitch. > > I am trying to build this at home with an opensuse distribution. I am not > trying to do any modifications to python, now or in the future. I am > trying to build this as another software installation wants 3.7 or better > and opensuse provided 3.6. > > I am stuck with a early compile error after the make command. > > I have downloaded, built and installed the openSSl. > I have changed the ld.so.conf to include the newly built ssl in the list > and re-ran ldconfig. Even though I have added the newly built ssl to the > conf file a dump of the ldconfig does not show the locally built ssl libs. > Does this process depend on LD_LIBRARY_PATH ? Defining LD_LIBRARY_PATH > made no discernable difference. > > kevin@localhost:~/Sources/Python-3.10.5> sudo ldconfig -p | grep ssl > [sudo] password for root: >libssl3.so (libc6,x86-64) => /usr/lib64/libssl3.so >libssl.so.1.1 (libc6,x86-64) => /usr/lib64/libssl.so.1.1 >libevent_openssl-2.1.so.6 (libc6,x86-64) => > /usr/lib64/libevent_openssl-2.1.so.6 > > The newly built ssl dir: > kevin@localhost:~/Sources/Python-3.10.5> ls -lrt /usr/local/ssl > total 40 > drwxr-xr-x 1 root root14 Jul 18 15:17 include > drwxr-xr-x 1 root root 190 Jul 18 15:17 lib64 > drwxr-xr-x 1 root root30 Jul 18 15:17 bin > drwxr-xr-x 1 root root 0 Jul 18 15:17 private > drwxr-xr-x 1 root root 0 Jul 18 15:17 certs > drwxr-xr-x 1 root root36 Jul 18 15:17 misc > -rw-r--r-- 1 root root 12292 Jul 18 15:17 openssl.cnf.dist > -rw-r--r-- 1 root root 12292 Jul 18 15:17 openssl.cnf > -rw-r--r-- 1 root root 412 Jul 18 15:17 ct_log_list.cnf.dist > -rw-r--r-- 1 root root 412 Jul 18 15:17 ct_log_list.cnf > drwxr-xr-x 1 root root12 Jul 18 15:18 share > > > I see in the web pages the known prerequisites and installed them. > kevin@localhost:/usr/local/ssl/lib64> sudo zypper install python310-idle > python310-devel python310-curses python310-dbm python310-tk > > kevin@localhost:/usr/local/ssl/lib64> sudo zypper install build-essential > gdb lcov pkg-config libbz2-dev libffi-dev libgdbm-dev > libgdbm-compat-dev liblzma-dev libncur > ses5-dev libreadline6-dev libsqlite3-dev libssl-dev lzma lzma-dev > tk-dev uuid-dev zlib1g-dev > > I see in the web pages this snip: > > Python build finished successfully! > The necessary bits to build these optional modules were not found: > _bz2 _dbm _gdbm > _lzma _sqlite3 _ssl > _tkinter _uuid readline > zlib > To find the necessary bits, look in setup.py in detect_modules() > for the module's name. > > What is one supposed to do with detect_modules? Add something or remove > something ? > It's up to you. It's more of a hint to let you know how Python searches for what it needs to build those modules. Also know that setup.py is going away in Python 3.12: https://github.com/python/cpython/pull/94474 . ___ Python-Dev mailing list -- python-dev@python.org To unsubscribe send an email to python-dev-le...@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-dev.python.org/ Message archived at https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-dev@python.org/message/NEZNAJA42G7A6ZTQFD4O33CUBFTUBWQ5/ Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
[Python-Dev] Re: Switching to Discourse
Eric Snow writes: > I consider the ability to search message archives to be essential to > effective contribution[.] +1 > There are relevant three aspects to archival and search that are worth > asking about here: > > 1. search functionality on the [archive] web site > 2. ability to search using other tools (e.g. my favorite: Google > search with "site:...") > 3. single archive vs. split archive I can't speak to 1 and 2, and I can't speak to cost of resource usage for 3, but it would be possible to have a Mailman list that has no subscribers, prohibits subscription, and allows only a small number of authorized posters, one of which would be the Discourse mail feed. As long as Discourse provides the In-Reply-To header field, the current threading algorithm would work reasonably well. I guess we would also want to disable replies in HyperKitty (maybe that's already a consequence of "no subscribers"?) I don't know how hard that would be. Steve ___ Python-Dev mailing list -- python-dev@python.org To unsubscribe send an email to python-dev-le...@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-dev.python.org/ Message archived at https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-dev@python.org/message/WJGDTT4XKN25HO6JNI3GRPVKBNVAHPSD/ Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
[Python-Dev] Re: Do not harass other mailing list subscribers privately
Thank you Brett and totally agree. Learning should not be clouded by any other agenda, we are very smart people and should conduct ourselves as such, with respect. From: Brett Cannon Sent: Wednesday, July 20, 2022 5:55 PM To: python-dev Subject: [Python-Dev] Do not harass other mailing list subscribers privately The SC has been notified of at least one instance of someone subscribed to this list harassing another subscriber privately. We wanted to remind folks that we expect people to behave reasonably towards each other, else people risk losing access to this mailing list and other places where Python is developed per the Code of Conduct. Poor behaviour, public or private, is not acceptable and will have ramifications where we are trying to facilitate an open, considerate, and respectful community that is under our control. -Brett, on behalf of the Python steering council ___ Python-Dev mailing list -- python-dev@python.org To unsubscribe send an email to python-dev-le...@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-dev.python.org/ Message archived at https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-dev@python.org/message/TIVX2Z4FU6LNBYVE5J6U2QL62C7NDUXL/ Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
[Python-Dev] Re: Switching to Discourse
On 18Jul2022 16:53, Joannah Nanjekye wrote: >I see I might have misunderstood, thinking a python-dev channel on discuss >was not as active as the mailing list. Understood. > >My original stand on preferring email stands though due to stable >standards. Several of us use the email mode in Discourse. It works quite well. For me, both python-dev and the PDO posts land in my "python" local folder. Cheers, Cameron Simpson ___ Python-Dev mailing list -- python-dev@python.org To unsubscribe send an email to python-dev-le...@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-dev.python.org/ Message archived at https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-dev@python.org/message/BMUHSEWGQQYU6BRSWTUQ5PHTHQYDZPSU/ Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
[Python-Dev] Re: Switching to Discourse
On 7/20/22 17:35, Cameron Simpson wrote: > On 18Jul2022 16:53, Joannah Nanjekye wrote: >> My original stand on preferring email stands though due to stable >> standards. > > Several of us use the email mode in Discourse. It works quite well. For > me, both python-dev and the PDO posts land in my "python" local folder. It works, but I wouldn't say "quite well" -- any thread from discourse is one long linear series of replies, and reading them in chronological order means jumping around and trying to figure what is a reply to what. -- ~Ethan~ ___ Python-Dev mailing list -- python-dev@python.org To unsubscribe send an email to python-dev-le...@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-dev.python.org/ Message archived at https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-dev@python.org/message/RYSDA5KULGF64CHR6YLAWYZ7VR7W44PA/ Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
[Python-Dev] Re: Switching to Discourse
On 21Jul2022 10:29, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote: >As long as Discourse provides the In-Reply-To header field, the current >threading algorithm would work reasonably well. Discourse does not do `In-Reply-To:` very well at all. Here's some headers from the _second_ post in the "Core dev sprint this year" thread: Message-ID: In-Reply-To: References: The first post has this: Message-ID: References: So at present Discourse's email implementation is buggy. I need to submit a bug report. In essense: The `References` and `In-Reply-To` headers cite a _nonexistent_ message-id which just denotes the thread number in the web forum. By contrast, the message-id itself at least is nice and unique. _However_, someone participating in "email mode" will of course send a message with its own distinct message-id from their source system, and that does not survive the email->discourse->email-out process. So your local copy of the message, if you keep one (I do) it will be a distinct duplicate message in your mail folder. I don't expect that to change. Anyway: - Discourse does provide `In-Reply-To` and `References` - they're bogus - they can be fixed (I'll submit a bug report, someone told me how to do that...) Cheers, Cameron Simpson ___ Python-Dev mailing list -- python-dev@python.org To unsubscribe send an email to python-dev-le...@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-dev.python.org/ Message archived at https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-dev@python.org/message/I26HZ7LJLTDGCG2APQ7BYP3YKT4IMIYZ/ Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
[Python-Dev] Do not harass other mailing list subscribers privately
The SC has been notified of at least one instance of someone subscribed to this list harassing another subscriber privately. We wanted to remind folks that we expect people to behave reasonably towards each other, else people risk losing access to this mailing list and other places where Python is developed per the Code of Conduct. Poor behaviour, public or private, is not acceptable and will have ramifications where we are trying to facilitate an open, considerate, and respectful community that is under our control. -Brett, on behalf of the Python steering council ___ Python-Dev mailing list -- python-dev@python.org To unsubscribe send an email to python-dev-le...@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-dev.python.org/ Message archived at https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-dev@python.org/message/M6KNQVHRKOBU4WHCEYQINA37A7F433J2/ Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
[Python-Dev] Re: Switching to Discourse
I'm -1 on moving to the walled garden, but I don't expect this to change anyone's mind. I don't know if I'll move over to Discourse or not. ___ Python-Dev mailing list -- python-dev@python.org To unsubscribe send an email to python-dev-le...@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-dev.python.org/ Message archived at https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-dev@python.org/message/FE67QZEXBGVCJ5HMNLFVDJKETIE7N2UP/ Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
[Python-Dev] Re: Switching to Discourse
Cameron Simpson writes: > Discourse does not do `In-Reply-To:` very well at all. Here's some > headers from the _second_ post in the "Core dev sprint this year" > thread: > > Message-ID: > > In-Reply-To: > References: I'm tempted to write something uncivil, but instead I'm gonna go hug a puppy and weep. > So at present Discourse's email implementation is buggy. I need to > submit a bug report. Thank you! You may find it useful to cite RFC 5322, section 3.6.4, and emphasize "unique" while mentioning the algorithm for populating References and In-Reply-To presented there. > _However_, someone participating in "email mode" will of course send a > message with its own distinct message-id from their source system, and > that does not survive the email->discourse->email-out process. [...] > I don't expect that to change. That's just plain obnoxious. Anybody who's in the CCs who participates in "email mode" will get (practically speaking) unfilterable duplicates, and (if there is offline discussion) a bogus new thread. I wonder if this goes all the way through to the backend database (ie, the only id a message gets are its thread id, a timestamp, and some way to ensure a total order in the case of equal timestamps), and the only place in Discourse where the unique Message-ID appears is in the outgoing message. In that case getting any sanity in Discourse email could be very expensive for Discourse. Steve ___ Python-Dev mailing list -- python-dev@python.org To unsubscribe send an email to python-dev-le...@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-dev.python.org/ Message archived at https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-dev@python.org/message/FPSDSMP3NEV7K6ATTTS4ZQXDRZACF2OE/ Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
