Fredrik Lundh wrote:
>>Maybe it's just because I came in late on this thread, but what exactly
>>is broken about the current LaTeX documentation?
>
>
> Checked the python-list archives lately? If you google c.l.python for the
> word "documentation", you'll find recent megathreads with subjects l
"Fredrik Lundh" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Barry Warsaw wrote:
>
> > > Sure, and some people hate using whitespace for block structure.
> >
> > A more proper analogy would be people who hate braces and parentheses.
> > You have to type so many more < and > characters (not to mention &s
> > a
[Fredrik wrote]
> - could a cronjob that does this be set up on some python.org machine
> (or on some volunteer's machine)
I bit:
http://trentm.com/python/
Cheers,
Trent
--
Trent Mick
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On Wednesday 21 December 2005 17:15, Barry Warsaw wrote:
> I'm not convinced it's the toolchain though. People hate writing
> documentation. Getting people to contribute documentation is worse than
> pulling teeth.
I don't think it's the toolchain either. While most people don't have it,
it
Fredrik> If you google c.l.python for the word "documentation", you'll
Fredrik> find recent megathreads with subjects like "bitching about the
Fredrik> documentation", "opensource documentation problems" and "python
Fredrik> documentation should be better" among the top hits. But
At 01:40 AM 12/22/2005 +0100, Martin v. Löwis wrote:
>Phillip J. Eby wrote:
> > 1. Fredrik doesn't want to have to install a LaTeX toolchain in order to
> > get an HTML version of the documentation
> >
> > 2. Fredrik likes using whatever tools he has for editing HTML better than
> > whatever he has
Phillip J. Eby wrote:
> 1. Fredrik doesn't want to have to install a LaTeX toolchain in order to
> get an HTML version of the documentation
>
> 2. Fredrik likes using whatever tools he has for editing HTML better than
> whatever he has for editing LaTeX
>
> 3. Fredrik believes that more people
Fredrik Lundh wrote:
> - could a cronjob that does this be set up on some python.org machine
> (or on some volunteer's machine)
My understanding is: not easily. Somebody would have to invest time, of
course. And then there is the issue of the build failing due to syntax
errors in the input.
> - i
A.M. Kuchling wrote:
> On Wed, Dec 21, 2005 at 07:55:42PM +0100, Walter Dörwald wrote:
>>> reST is a possibility, though I don't think anyone has worked on
>>> building the required toolchain. Fred has a LaTeX-to-XML-format
>>> converter kicking around somewhere,
>> Is this available somewhere?
>
Barry Warsaw wrote:
> > Sure, and some people hate using whitespace for block structure.
>
> A more proper analogy would be people who hate braces and parentheses.
> You have to type so many more < and > characters (not to mention &s
> and ;s) to make happy-joy html than you have to type \s and {s
On Wed, 2005-12-21 at 22:40 +0100, Fredrik Lundh wrote:
> > Sorry, but HTML and (even more so) XML are not human-writable. :) Yeah,
> > we can all do the simple stuff, but I absolutely hate authoring in HTML,
> > and it would be a nightmare if the documentation production system
> > didn't handle
[Gregory P. Smith wrote]
> (i don't know what version python uses today maybe this is a non issue?)
$ svn cat http://svn.python.org/projects/python/trunk/PCbuild/zlib.vcproj |
grep "zlib-"
...
zlib 1.2.3
Trent
--
Trent Mick
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
_
Barry Warsaw wrote:
> Sorry, but HTML and (even more so) XML are not human-writable. :) Yeah,
> we can all do the simple stuff, but I absolutely hate authoring in HTML,
> and it would be a nightmare if the documentation production system
> didn't handle lots and lots of magic for you (like weavin
[Fredrik Lundh wrote]
> $ make html
> TEXINPUTS=...
> +++ TEXINPUTS=...
> +++ latex api
> *** Session transcript and error messages are in
> .../Python-2.5/Doc/html/api/api.how.
> *** Exited with status 127.
> The relevant lines from the transcript are:
> --
At 03:16 PM 12/21/2005 -0500, Barry Warsaw wrote:
>Maybe it's just because I came in late on this thread, but what exactly
>is broken about the current LaTeX documentation?
As far as I can tell from his comments:
1. Fredrik doesn't want to have to install a LaTeX toolchain in order to
get an HTM
Phillip J. Eby wrote:
> And where characters like '<' and '>' occur frequently as part of the text,
> especially in showing Python interactions like this:
>
> >>> print "hello world"
> hello world
>
> I can't imagine trying to author the above in an HTML/XML based format,
it's spelled
Hallöchen!
"A.M. Kuchling" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> On Wed, Dec 21, 2005 at 05:10:24PM +0100, Fredrik Lundh wrote:
>
>> (as I hinted, I'd prefer HTML with microformat annotations as the
>> main format; with roundtripping to markdown or rest (etc) for
>> people who prefer to author in that, a
Laura Creighton wrote:
> Whenever people have demanded that I write documentation in html
> I have always done this:
>
>
> all my documentation, as output from a text editor.
>
> All subsequent formatting to be done by somebody else who doesn't
> find dealing with html as excruciatingly painful
On 12/21/05, Barry Warsaw <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
[SNIP]
> Maybe it's just because I came in late on this thread, but what exactly
> is broken about the current LaTeX documentation?
>
Well, the toolchain is not necessarily installed on everyone's
computer. Plus not everyone knows LaTeX compara
On Wed, 2005-12-21 at 20:36 +0100, Fredrik Lundh wrote:
> I'm not really interested in optimizing for you, I'm interested in optimizing
> for everyone else. They already know HTML. They don't know ReST, and
> I doubt they care about it (how many blogs accept ReST for comments?)
Sorry, but HTML
"Fredrik Lundh" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Josiah Carlson wrote:
>
> > > yeah, because using something that everyone else uses would of course
> > > not be the python way.
> >
> > No, because ReST is significantly easier to learn and use than basically
> > every other markup language I've go
At 01:43 PM 12/21/2005 -0600, Ian Bicking wrote:
> But when I want to focus
>on content the markup is very distracting, and even moreso when writing
>about programming (where ASCII, newlines, and whitespace is the native
>layout technique).
And where characters like '<' and '>' occur frequently a
At 08:36 PM 12/21/2005 +0100, Fredrik Lundh wrote:
>Josiah Carlson wrote:
>
> > > yeah, because using something that everyone else uses would of course
> > > not be the python way.
> >
> > No, because ReST is significantly easier to learn and use than basically
> > every other markup language I've
At 08:21 PM 12/21/2005 +0100, Fredrik Lundh wrote:
>Phillip J. Eby wrote:
>
> > > > And attempting to roundtrip HTML back to reST would lose far too much
> > > > information
> > >
> > >in a less dogmatic Python universe, that would be considered a major
> > >design flaw in ReST.
> >
> > Since when
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Fredrik> And *everyone* knows how to write HTML.
>
> That's debatable. Maybe most people in the python-dev community know how.
> Even within this communitiy I suspect there are at least a few people who
> normally use something else (like Word) to generate HTML for
Josiah Carlson wrote:
> > yeah, because using something that everyone else uses would of course
> > not be the python way.
>
> No, because ReST is significantly easier to learn and use than basically
> every other markup language I've gotten my hands on.
I'm not really interested in optimizing fo
Phillip J. Eby wrote:
> > > And attempting to roundtrip HTML back to reST would lose far too much
> > > information
> >
> >in a less dogmatic Python universe, that would be considered a major
> >design flaw in ReST.
>
> Since when is having a more expressive source language than HTML a flaw? :)
On Wed, Dec 21, 2005 at 07:55:42PM +0100, Walter Dörwald wrote:
> >reST is a possibility, though I don't think anyone has worked on
> >building the required toolchain. Fred has a LaTeX-to-XML-format
> >converter kicking around somewhere,
>
> Is this available somewhere?
Docs/tools/sgmlconv/, I t
Fredrik> "someone else invented it" is of course why I'm advocating an
Fredrik> HTML- based format.
Of course, someone also invented HTML and TeX+LaTeX predates HTML by quite a
bit.
Fredrik> And *everyone* knows how to write HTML.
That's debatable. Maybe most people in the python-
"Fredrik Lundh" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Josiah Carlson wrote:
>
> > -1 for choosing something not ReST or latex.
>
> yeah, because using something that everyone else uses would of course
> not be the python way.
No, because ReST is significantly easier to learn and use than basically
ev
A.M. Kuchling wrote:
> I don't see how HTML can be used to support printed versions of the
> docs (e.g. PostScript, PDF). Even if you generated one big HTML file
> instead of a zillion section-by-section files, web browsers are
> terrible at printing. I don't know how you could get a table of
>
At 07:33 PM 12/21/2005 +0100, Fredrik Lundh wrote:
> > And attempting to roundtrip HTML back to reST would lose far too much
> > information
>
>in a less dogmatic Python universe, that would be considered a major
>design flaw in ReST.
Since when is having a more expressive source language than HTM
Fred L. Drake, Jr. wrote:
> LaTeX, for all the tool requirements, is a fairly light-weight markup
> language. Yes, it has too many special characters. But someone else
> invented it, and I'm not keen on inventing any more than we have to.
"someone else invented it" is of course why I'm advocati
A.M. Kuchling wrote:
> On Wed, Dec 21, 2005 at 05:10:24PM +0100, Fredrik Lundh wrote:
>
>>(as I hinted, I'd prefer HTML with microformat annotations as the
>>main format; with roundtripping to markdown or rest (etc) for people
>>who prefer to author in that, and tidy->xhtml->python tools for the
On Wed, Dec 21, 2005 at 05:10:24PM +0100, Fredrik Lundh wrote:
> (as I hinted, I'd prefer HTML with microformat annotations as the
> main format; with roundtripping to markdown or rest (etc) for people
> who prefer to author in that, and tidy->xhtml->python tools for the
> HTML generation)
I don't
> A new core `hashlib` module will be included in Python 2.5, but will
> not be backported to older Python versions. It includes new
> implementations for SHA-224, -256, -384 and -512. The code and tests
> are already written, and can be gotten from Python's SVN trunk.
Another thing I intended t
Phillip J. Eby wrote:
> >(as I hinted, I'd prefer HTML with microformat annotations as the main
> >format;
> >with roundtripping to markdown or rest (etc) for people who prefer to
> >author in that, and tidy->xhtml->python tools for the HTML generation)
>
> I don't see how HTML is any "lighter" t
[Copied to the Doc-SIG list.]
On Wednesday 21 December 2005 13:02, Josiah Carlson wrote:
> +1 for using ReST.
> +0 for sticking with latex.
I'll try and spend a little time on this issue this week, but time is hard to
come by these days.
ReST (as implemented in docutils) at this point does *n
On Sun, Dec 18, 2005 at 11:09:54AM +0100, "Martin v. L?wis" wrote:
> Thomas (Heller) and I have been discussing whether the zlib
> module should become builtin, atleast on Win32 (i.e. part
> of python25.dll). This would simplify py2exe, which then could
> bootstrap extraction from the compressed fi
On Fri, Dec 16, 2005 at 02:50:36PM -0800, Brett Cannon wrote:
> On 12/16/05, Tim Peters <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> [SNIP]
> > python-dev'ers: I failed to find anything in the trunk's NEWS file
> > about this (neither about `hashlib`, nor about any of the specific new
> > hash functions). It's n
Josiah Carlson wrote:
> -1 for choosing something not ReST or latex.
yeah, because using something that everyone else uses would of course
not be the python way.
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At 05:10 PM 12/21/2005 +0100, Fredrik Lundh wrote:
>- is it perhaps time to start investigating using "lighter" tools for the core
>documentation ?
>
>(as I hinted, I'd prefer HTML with microformat annotations as the main format;
>with roundtripping to markdown or rest (etc) for people who prefer t
Steve Holden <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Fredrik Lundh wrote:
>
> >
> > - is it perhaps time to start investigating using "lighter" tools for the
> > core
> > documentation ?
> >
> +1
+1 for using ReST.
+0 for sticking with latex.
-1 for choosing something not ReST or latex.
+10 for any
Fredrik Lundh wrote:
>
> - is it perhaps time to start investigating using "lighter" tools for the core
> documentation ?
>
+1
regards
Steve
--
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Holden Web LLC www.holdenweb.com
PyCon TX 2006 www.python.
Thomas Heller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> Thomas Heller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>
>> Building the svn trunk on Windows fails because Python\pyarena.c is
>> missing in the pythoncore.vcproj file (I'm not yet up to speed with svn,
>> otherwise I would have checked in a fix for this myself).
>>
Thomas Heller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> Would a patch be accepted that implemented an optional second parameter
> for the os.startfile function on Windows?
>
> Sometimes I missed the possibility to write
>
> os.startfile("mydocs.pdf", "print")
The other possibility would be to extend the su
Martin v. Löwis wrote:
> If you just want to know what your changes look like: type "make html"
> in the Doc directory, and wait a moment for it to complete. I get
> xml.etree as section 13.13.
provided you have all the right stuff on your machine, that is:
$ make html
TEXINPUTS=...
+++ TEXINPUT
On Wed, Dec 21, 2005, Michael Chermside wrote:
>
> So I have a counter-proposal. Let's NOT create a hierarchy of abstract
> base types for the elementary types of Python. (Even basestring feels
> like a minor wart to me, although for now it seems like we need
> it.) If the core problem is "how do y
Nick Coghlan writes:
> Sorry - I meant to indicate that I didn't think the base classes were
> necessary because the relevant checks already existed in a "does it behave
> like one" sense:
>
>def is_container(x):
[...]
>def is_mapping(x):
[...]
>def is_sequence(x):
Michael Chermside wrote:
> Nick Coghlan writes:
>> Close enough to on-topic to stay here, I think. However, I tend to think of
>> the taxonomy as a little less flat:
>>
>> basecontainer (anything with __len__)
>>- set
>>- basemapping (anything with __getitem__)
>> - dict
>> - base
Josiah Carlson writes:
> New superclasses for all built-in types (except for string and unicode,
> which already subclass from basestring).
>
> int, float, complex (long) : subclass from basenumber
> tuple, list, set : subclass from basesequence
> dict : subclass from basemapping
>
> The idea is th
Aahz wrote:
> On Tue, Dec 20, 2005, M.-A. Lemburg wrote:
>> Josiah Carlson wrote:
>>> New superclasses for all built-in types (except for string and unicode,
>>> which already subclass from basestring).
>>>
>>> int, float, complex (long) : subclass from basenumber
>>> tuple, list, set : subclass fr
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