Re: [Python-Dev] Accepted: PEP 493 (HTTPS verification migration tools for Python 2.7)

2016-03-02 Thread Nick Coghlan 
On 3 March 2016 at 03:10, Eric Snow  wrote:
> On Wed, Mar 2, 2016 at 8:02 AM, Barry Warsaw  wrote:
>> As BDFL-Delegate, I am officially accepting PEP 493.
>>
>> Congratulations Nick, Robert, and MAL.  I want to personally thank Nick for
>> taking my concerns into consideration, and re-working the PEP to resolve
>> them.  Thanks also to everyone who contributed to the discussion.
>
> Yeah, congrats!  And thanks for taking on something that (in my mind)
> isn't the most exciting thing to work on. :)

I got to spend work time on it, which greatly eases the pain :)

Cheers,
Nick.

-- 
Nick Coghlan   |   ncogh...@gmail.com   |   Brisbane, Australia
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Re: [Python-Dev] Question about sys.path and sys.argv and how packaging (may) affects default values

2016-03-02 Thread Thomas Wouters 
On Wed, Mar 2, 2016 at 3:50 AM, Michael Felt  wrote:

> Hello all,
>
> 1) There are many lists to choose from - if this is the wrong one for
> questions about packaging - please forgive me, and point me in the right
> direction.
>

It's hard to say where this belongs best, but python-list would probably
have done as well.


>
> 2) Normally, I have just packaged python, and then moved on. However,
> recently I have been asked to help with packaging an 'easier to install'
> python by people using cloud-init, and more recently people wanting to use
> salt-stack (on AIX).
>
> FYI: I have been posting about my complete failure to build 2.7.11 (
> http://bugs.python.org/issue26466) - so, what I am testing is based on
> 2.7.10 - which built easily for me.
>
> Going through the 'base documentation' I saw a reference to both sys.argv
> and sys.path. atm, I am looking for an easy way to get the program name
> (e.g., /opt/bin/python, versus ./python).
> I have my reasons (basically, looking for a compiled-in library search
> path to help with http://bugs.python.org/issue26439)
>

I think the only way to get at the compiled-in search path is to recreate
it based on the compiled-in prefix, which you can get through distutils.
Python purposely only uses the compiled-in path as the last resort.
Instead, it searches for its home relative to the executable and adds a set
of directories relative to its home (if they exist).

It's not clear to me why you're focusing on these differences, as (as I
describe below) they are immaterial.


> Looking on two platforms (AIX, my build, and debian for power) I am
> surprised that sys.argv is empty in both cases, and sys.path returns
> /opt/lib/python27.zip with AIX, but not with debian.
>

When you run python interactively, sys.argv[0] will be '', yes. Since
you're not launching a program, there's nothing else to set it to. 'python'
(or the path to the executable) wouldn't be the right thing to set it to,
because python itself isn't a Python program :)

The actual python executable is sys.executable, not sys.argv[0], but you
shouldn't usually care about that, either. If you want to know where to
install things, distutils is the thing to use. If you want to know where
Python thinks it's installed (for debugging purposes only, really),
sys.prefix will tell you.


>
> root@x064:[/data/prj/aixtools/python/python-2.7.10]/opt/bin/python
> Python 2.7.10 (default, Nov  3 2015, 14:36:51) [C] on aix5
> Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.
> >>> import sys
> >>> sys.argv
> ['']
> >>> sys.path
> ['', '/opt/lib/python27.zip', '/opt/lib/python2.7',
> '/opt/lib/python2.7/plat-aix5', '/opt/lib/python2.7/lib-tk',
> '/opt/lib/python2.7/lib-old', '/opt/lib/python2.7/lib-dynload',
> '/opt/lib/python2.7/site-packages']
>
> michael@ipv4:~$ python
> Python 2.7.9 (default, Mar  1 2015, 13:01:00)
> [GCC 4.9.2] on linux2
> Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.
> >>> import sys
> >>> sys.argv
> ['']
> >>> sys.path
> ['', '/usr/lib/python2.7', '/usr/lib/python2.7/plat-powerpc-linux-gnu',
> '/usr/lib/python2.7/lib-tk', '/usr/lib/python2.7/lib-old',
> '/usr/lib/python2.7/lib-dynload', '/usr/local/lib/python2.7/dist-packages',
> '/usr/lib/python2.7/dist-packages',
> '/usr/lib/python2.7/dist-packages/PILcompat',
> '/usr/lib/python2.7/dist-packages/gtk-2.0', '/usr/lib/pymodules/python2.7']
>

In sys.path, you're seeing the difference between a vanilla Python and
Debian's patched Python. Vanilla Python adds $prefix/lib/python27.zip to
sys.path unconditionally, whereas Debian removes it when it doesn't exist.
Likewise, the dist-packages directory is a local modification by Debian; in
vanilla Python it's called 'site-packages' instead. The subdirectories in
dist-packages that you see in the Debian case are added by .pth files
installed in $prefix -- third-party packages, in other words, adding their
own directories to the module search path.


>
> And I guess I would be interested in getting
> '/opt/lib/python2.7/dist-packages' in there as well (or learn a way to
> later add it for pre-compiled packages such as cloud-init AND that those
> would also look 'first' in /opt/lib/python2.7/dist-packages/cloud-init for
> modules added to support cloud-init - should I so choose (mainly in case of
> compatibility issues between say cloud-init and salt-stack that have common
> modules BUT may have conflicts) - Hopefully never needed for that reason,
> but it might also simplify packaging applications that depend on python.
>

A vanilla Python (or non-Debian-built python, even) has no business looking
in dist-packages. It should just use site-packages. Third-party packages
shouldn't care whether they're installed in site-packages or dist-packages,
and instead should use distutils one way or another (if not by having an
actual setup.py that uses distutils or setuptools, then at least by
querying distutils for the installation directory the way

Re: [Python-Dev] Question about sys.path and sys.argv and how packaging (may) affects default values

2016-03-02 Thread Brett Cannon 
On Wed, 2 Mar 2016 at 09:12 Michael Felt  wrote:

> Hello all,
>
> 1) There are many lists to choose from - if this is the wrong one for
> questions about packaging - please forgive me, and point me in the right
> direction.
>

So in this instance you're after python-list since this is a general
support question. But since I have an answer for you...


>
> 2) Normally, I have just packaged python, and then moved on. However,
> recently I have been asked to help with packaging an 'easier to install'
> python by people using cloud-init, and more recently people wanting to
> use salt-stack (on AIX).
>
> FYI: I have been posting about my complete failure to build 2.7.11 (
> http://bugs.python.org/issue26466) - so, what I am testing is based on
> 2.7.10 - which built easily for me.
>
> Going through the 'base documentation' I saw a reference to both
> sys.argv and sys.path. atm, I am looking for an easy way to get the
> program name (e.g., /opt/bin/python, versus ./python).
> I have my reasons (basically, looking for a compiled-in library search
> path to help with http://bugs.python.org/issue26439)
>

https://docs.python.org/2.7/library/sys.html#sys.executable


>
> Looking on two platforms (AIX, my build, and debian for power) I am
> surprised that sys.argv is empty in both cases, and sys.path returns
> /opt/lib/python27.zip with AIX, but not with debian.
>

Did you actually build your version of Python on Debian? If not then do
realize that Debian patches their version of CPython, so it wouldn't shock
me if they stripped out the code that adds the zip file to sys.path. IOW
don't trust the pre-installed CPython to act the same as one that is built
from source.
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[Python-Dev] Question about sys.path and sys.argv and how packaging (may) affects default values

2016-03-02 Thread Michael Felt 

Hello all,

1) There are many lists to choose from - if this is the wrong one for 
questions about packaging - please forgive me, and point me in the right 
direction.


2) Normally, I have just packaged python, and then moved on. However, 
recently I have been asked to help with packaging an 'easier to install' 
python by people using cloud-init, and more recently people wanting to 
use salt-stack (on AIX).


FYI: I have been posting about my complete failure to build 2.7.11 ( 
http://bugs.python.org/issue26466) - so, what I am testing is based on 
2.7.10 - which built easily for me.


Going through the 'base documentation' I saw a reference to both 
sys.argv and sys.path. atm, I am looking for an easy way to get the 
program name (e.g., /opt/bin/python, versus ./python).
I have my reasons (basically, looking for a compiled-in library search 
path to help with http://bugs.python.org/issue26439)


Looking on two platforms (AIX, my build, and debian for power) I am 
surprised that sys.argv is empty in both cases, and sys.path returns 
/opt/lib/python27.zip with AIX, but not with debian.


root@x064:[/data/prj/aixtools/python/python-2.7.10]/opt/bin/python
Python 2.7.10 (default, Nov  3 2015, 14:36:51) [C] on aix5
Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.
>>> import sys
>>> sys.argv
['']
>>> sys.path
['', '/opt/lib/python27.zip', '/opt/lib/python2.7', 
'/opt/lib/python2.7/plat-aix5', '/opt/lib/python2.7/lib-tk', 
'/opt/lib/python2.7/lib-old', '/opt/lib/python2.7/lib-dynload', 
'/opt/lib/python2.7/site-packages']


michael@ipv4:~$ python
Python 2.7.9 (default, Mar  1 2015, 13:01:00)
[GCC 4.9.2] on linux2
Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.
>>> import sys
>>> sys.argv
['']
>>> sys.path
['', '/usr/lib/python2.7', '/usr/lib/python2.7/plat-powerpc-linux-gnu', 
'/usr/lib/python2.7/lib-tk', '/usr/lib/python2.7/lib-old', 
'/usr/lib/python2.7/lib-dynload', 
'/usr/local/lib/python2.7/dist-packages', 
'/usr/lib/python2.7/dist-packages', 
'/usr/lib/python2.7/dist-packages/PILcompat', 
'/usr/lib/python2.7/dist-packages/gtk-2.0', '/usr/lib/pymodules/python2.7']


And I guess I would be interested in getting 
'/opt/lib/python2.7/dist-packages' in there as well (or learn a way to 
later add it for pre-compiled packages such as cloud-init AND that those 
would also look 'first' in /opt/lib/python2.7/dist-packages/cloud-init 
for modules added to support cloud-init - should I so choose (mainly in 
case of compatibility issues between say cloud-init and salt-stack that 
have common modules BUT may have conflicts) - Hopefully never needed for 
that reason, but it might also simplify packaging applications that 
depend on python.


Many thanks for your time and pointers into the documentation, It is a 
bit daunting :)


Michael
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Re: [Python-Dev] Accepted: PEP 493 (HTTPS verification migration tools for Python 2.7)

2016-03-02 Thread Eric Snow 
On Wed, Mar 2, 2016 at 8:02 AM, Barry Warsaw  wrote:
> As BDFL-Delegate, I am officially accepting PEP 493.
>
> Congratulations Nick, Robert, and MAL.  I want to personally thank Nick for
> taking my concerns into consideration, and re-working the PEP to resolve
> them.  Thanks also to everyone who contributed to the discussion.

Yeah, congrats!  And thanks for taking on something that (in my mind)
isn't the most exciting thing to work on. :)

-eric
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[Python-Dev] Accepted: PEP 493 (HTTPS verification migration tools for Python 2.7)

2016-03-02 Thread Barry Warsaw 
As BDFL-Delegate, I am officially accepting PEP 493.

Congratulations Nick, Robert, and MAL.  I want to personally thank Nick for
taking my concerns into consideration, and re-working the PEP to resolve
them.  Thanks also to everyone who contributed to the discussion.

Cheers,
-Barry


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Re: [Python-Dev] pickle and copy discrepancy

2016-03-02 Thread Serhiy Storchaka 

On 01.03.16 18:34, Ethan Furman wrote:

On 03/01/2016 03:14 AM, Serhiy Storchaka wrote:

The difference is that the copy module sets object's state before adding
items and key-value pairs, but the pickle module sets object's state
after adding items and key-value pairs. If append() or __setitem__()
depend on the state of the object, the pickling is incompatible with the
copying.


Aren't there tests to ensure the unpickled/copied object are identical
to the original object?


We have no pickle/copy tests for every class. And of course we can't 
test third-party classes. But even if write tests and they will fail, 
what to do? The problem is that for some classes pickle and copy 
contradict. An implementation that works with copy doesn't work with 
pickle or vice verse.



Under which circumstances would they be different?


If append() or __setitem__() depend on the state or change the state. 
See examples in issue1099746 and issue10131.


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