[Python-Dev] Re: Recent PEP-8 change

[Keara Berlin]

Thank you, Piper. This is exactly what I meant to say, and a very good
explanation. I appreciate your time and energy.

On Tue, Jun 30, 2020, 09:23 Piper Thunstrom  wrote:

> > The original request for the change had absolutely no hint that the
> current text was racist in any way; then we find out that, apparently,
> we've been harboring white supremacist ideals by prescribing when to use
> apostrophes and commas?  That commit message (not the commit itself) took
> what should have been a simple change and turned into a platform for
> political grandstanding of the worst kind:
> >
> > - False, as far as I can tell (until given confirming examples from the
> S text)
> > - Only colored people are mentioned (and other /native English speakers/)
> > - Zero mention of non-native English speakers
>
> So, I think I can explain. (Not with references because I've lost most
> of them over the years, but bear with me.)
>
> The actual advice in The Elements of Style are mostly inoffensive when
> taken on their own, and out of context. The problem is that the
> Elements of Style (And many works like it) are built on a system of
> white supremacy. The grammarian movement, in general, was built on
> elevating a very specific form of English over others. It specifically
> was chosen to avoid "lower class" usages and things like AAVE (though
> that term would not exist for decades after the movement reached a
> furor).
>
> The commentary in the commit message is a plain and simple description
> of the effects of the grammarian movement to someone who has studied
> the topic.
>
> Strunk & White is just one possible edifice of that history. As
> mentioned already in this thread, it is not the name of the authors
> that is the problem, but the movement and history of Standard English
> that is the edifice of white supremacy. You cannot evaluate the book
> strictly outside of the context in which it was written and used and
> declare it's not white supremacist.
>
> In summary:
>
> The thing being objected to was the idea that we should choose
> Standard English as our basis for our language guide. Further, S, a
> classical work on how to write Standard English well, is a bad guide
> when discussing in light of that fact. Each individual who likes
> Elements of Style is not wrong for liking the book, you can keep it on
> your shelf and no one will be angry. But this argument about Standard
> English is propping up a hegemony that affects multiple axes of
> oppression, and we should be aware of that.
>
> Piper Thunstrom
>
> My public key is available at https://keybase.io/pathunstrom
> Public key fingerprint: 8FF9 3F4E C447 55EC 4658 BDCC A57E A7A4 86D2 644F
>
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[Python-Dev] Re: [Python-ideas] Re: Amend PEP-8 to require clear, understandable comments instead of Strunk & White Standard English comments

[Keara Berlin]

Hi all, I didn't mean for there to be significant differences between what
I posted here versus in the commit message. Sorry for any confusion around
that! Thank you for putting them both in one place here - that is helpful.

Take care,
Keara


On Sun, Jun 28, 2020, 16:12 Paul Sokolovsky  wrote:

> Hello,
>
> Shouldn't such feedback be also cross-posted to the python-dev mailing
> list? Also note the original pull request,
> https://github.com/python/peps/pull/1470, and differences of what was
> written in the pull request description and what went in the commit
> message.
>
>
> On Sun, 28 Jun 2020 22:10:14 +0200
> "Giampaolo Rodola'"  wrote:
>
> > From:
> >
> https://github.com/python/peps/commit/0c6427dcec1e98ca0bd46a876a7219ee4a9347f4
> >
> > > Instead of requiring that comments be written in Strunk & White
> > > Standard
> > English, require instead that English-language comments be clear and
> > easily understandable by other English speakers. This accomplishes
> > the same goal without upholding relics of white supremacy. Many
> > native English speakers do not use Standard English as their native
> > dialect, so requiring conformation to Standard English centers
> > whiteness in an inappropriate and unnecessary way, and can alienate
> > and put up barriers for people of color and those whose native
> > dialect of English is not Standard English. This change is a simple
> > way to correct that while maintaining the original intent of the
> > requirement.
> >
> > This has nothing to do with making the wording "clear and
> > understandable" (I agree on that). It's about, once again, bringing
> > race-based politics into Python, and spreading hate towards a
> > specific group of people: whites. Whether you're aware of it or not,
> > there is a term for this: it's racism. I want to remind everyone that
> > most of us here simply want to contribute code. We do it for free,
> > and don't want to be involved in "this", because frankly it's
> > disgusting. Doing something out of passion and for free, and at the
> > same time seeing these sorts of things happening on a regular basis,
> > looks and feels like an insult, and will only lead to people leaving
> > this place.
> >
> > On Fri, Jun 26, 2020 at 11:27 PM Keara Berlin 
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Hi all, this is a very small change, but I thought I would field it
> > > here to see if anyone has suggestions or ideas. Instead of
> > > requiring that comments be written in Strunk & White Standard
> > > English, PEP-8 should require instead that English-language
> > > comments be clear and easily understandable by other English
> > > speakers. This accomplishes the same goal without alienating or
> > > putting up barriers for people (especially people of color) whose
> > > native dialect of English is not Standard English. This change is a
> > > simple way to correct that while maintaining the original intent of
> > > the requirement. This change may even make the requirement more
> > > clear to people who are not familiar with Strunk & White, since for
> > > programmers, the main relevant aspect of that standard is "be clear
> > > and concise;" simply saying that instead of referencing Strunk &
> > > White may communicate this more effectively. Here is the current
> > > line in PEP-8: "When writing English, follow Strunk and White."
> > > I propose changing this line to "When writing English, ensure that
> > > your comments are clear and easily understandable to other English
> > > speakers." ___
> > > Python-ideas mailing list -- python-id...@python.org
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> > > Message archived at
> > >
> https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-id...@python.org/message/AE2M7KOIQR37K3XSQW7FSV5KO4LMYHWX/
> > > Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
> > >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Giampaolo - gmpy.dev <https://gmpy.dev/about>
>
>
>
> --
> Best regards,
>  Paul  mailto:pmis...@gmail.com
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