[Python-Dev] Python for new users
In the 'PEP453 ready for pronouncement' thread, Donald said Because reality is that new users are still likely to be using Python 2.7. Python 3 is just now starting to be really usable, however there's a huge corpus of existing tutorials, course work, books etc for Python 2.7. As Python 3 becomes more usable that existing corpus of material will be ported over to Python 3 but in the interim there is still a pretty large hurdle for new users to get over. And Guido replied Based on my day-to-day experience this is still very true. (And yes, I'm slowly turning the tide. But it will take a long time and I am committed to giving users the choice.) Widely-used and linked web resources tend to persist for a very long time, so we shouldn't use the prevalence of Python 2 resources as a reason for excessive caution. The key question is how much good material is available based on Python 3 - and this has improved significantly over the past couple of years. The classic How to Think Like a Computer Scientist has an excellent Python 3 version available at http://interactivepython.org, for example. Things are changing with print media, too. Pragmatic Programmers are about to publish the 2nd edition of Practical Programming, based on Python 3. Most of the major academic publishers have released Python 3 books in the last 12 months. The tide is definitely turning, perhaps has already turned. Encouraging the continued use of 2.7 for existing programmers is entirely justifiable, but for *newcomers* to programming I think it is now much harder to justify. A stronger case could have been made a couple of years ago, when many important packages were not yet available for Python 3, but things have changed. Even big frameworks like Django are now usable with Python 3. If we aren't yet past the point where package availability shouldn't be regarded as an adoption barrier by beginners, we are surely very close. I've been teaching Python as a first language to university students for many years now, initially with Python 2 and for the last few years with Python 3. In my experience, they encounter fewer problems with Python 3 (just as Guido intended, no doubt :) The one stumbling block in the past has been package availability for project work, but I don't expect that to a problem this year. All of the web and GUI development work that they'll be doing with me, for example, will be done entirely in Python 3. Nick ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Python-Dev Digest, Vol 92, Issue 156
. My goal, once this is setup, is to have the project largely self-managing, with the PSF helping to market it to the community as a whole. Jesse -- Message: 11 Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2011 13:59:32 +0100 From: Stefan Krah ste...@bytereef.org To: python-dev@python.org Subject: Re: [Python-Dev] CRLF line endings Message-ID: 20110325125932.ga13...@sleipnir.bytereef.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Nick Coghlan ncogh...@gmail.com wrote: However, dnloop.patch is correct and must have CRLF line endings. How can I disable the commit hook? Don't disable the commit hook, update .hgeol to flag that file as requiring CRLF line endings. Thanks, that works well. Stefan Krah -- Message: 12 Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2011 09:06:48 -0400 From: Jesse Noller jnol...@gmail.com To: exar...@twistedmatrix.com Cc: Python-Dev python-dev@python.org Subject: Re: [Python-Dev] Python Core Mentorship program Message-ID: aanlktim9ormhas3yzevwccrzfwxtf3flew_h9szbb...@mail.gmail.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Fri, Mar 25, 2011 at 9:04 AM, exar...@twistedmatrix.com wrote: On 12:03 pm, jnol...@gmail.com wrote: Hello everyone: The new list will also have a closed, members-only archive. After consulting with other core developers, we believe it's easier to ask questions when you don't have to worry about Google picking up your words from a public archive. Boggle. Jean-Paul I assume that means your in, or you hate that idea? -- ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev End of Python-Dev Digest, Vol 92, Issue 156 *** -- Dr Nick Efford, School of | E: n.d.eff...@leeds.ac.uk Computing, University of | T: +44 113 343 6809 Leeds, Leeds, LS2 9JT, UK | W: http://www.comp.leeds.ac.uk/nde/ --+- PGP fingerprint: 6ADF 16C2 4E2D 320B F537 8F3C 402D 1C78 A668 8492 ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] #Python3 ! ? (was Python Library Support in 3.x)
I'm sorry if you had the impression people wanted to nail you at the stake for using Python 3. If that's how you felt, it isn't true. I basically agree with Glyph. I don't think we've recently (I'm not omnipresent) told anyone who had any good reasons to to stop using Python 3. If someone's doing work that actually needs Python 3 (most recent example a GSOC student porting Sphinx), we try our best to help, and AFAICT we've mostly been successful. (Please correct me if you think this is erroneous.). We don't get too many people that actually want or need that, but I'm guessing that's mostly because people porting libraries to py3k usually already know what they're doing so they don't need the first-line-of-defense thing for Python questions that #python tries to be. Thanks for explaining your position on this so carefully, Laurens. You've made many reasonable points which I hope will help to cool things down a little. Clearly, there are situations where it makes sense to advocate Python 2.X and other situations where people can be encouraged to consider Python 3. The issues that potential users need to consider are too subtle to be represented fairly by the simple advice to 'avoid Python 3', so can we not all agree to remove it as a #python topic as a gesture of goodwill? Nobody need change their opinions or adovacy as a result, but it would have the benefit of presenting #python in a more neutral and inclusive light. I've not used IRC much in the past, but if it would be useful for someone like myself - a longtime Python user but recent and enthusiastic Python 3 adopter - to offer my opinions and advice on the issue to newcomers then I'm certainly willing to get involved. We're still telling people to use Python 2.x by default because of a few major things: 1. going out on a limb here: well over 90% of those people are completely new to Python and out of those most of them completely new to programming too, Not sure if I agree with you here; I regard people new to programming as the prime candidates for using Python 3. Many of the language changes have the effect of making it significantly easier to learn for newcomers (I wrote about this a while ago - see http://www.comp.leeds.ac.uk/nde/papers/teachpy3.html). Also, people new to Python or programming in general won't have the burden of legacy code that needs to be converted. The only situation in which I'd direct someone new to programming away from Python 3 would be if they had a specific need to use a library that wasn't yet supported. 2. the nicest libraries for doing a lot of stuff aren't ported yet, or are in the process of being ported but not yet recommended for actual use by their authors, (this seems to be a point of contention?) This has certainly been the key issue for me. Only in the past two or three months have we got to the point where I feel can commit to Python 3 fully. Six months ago, I definitely could not have done so. This is progress, and we need to be positive about it. Regards, Nick -- Dr Nick Efford, School of | E: n.d.eff...@leeds.ac.uk Computing, University of | T: +44 113 343 6809 Leeds, Leeds, LS2 9JT, UK | W: http://www.comp.leeds.ac.uk/nde/ --+- PGP fingerprint: 6ADF 16C2 4E2D 320B F537 8F3C 402D 1C78 A668 8492 ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Python 3.0.1
Paul Moore p.f.mo...@gmail.com wrote: Serious question: does anybody know how to get better communication from the user base? My impression is that it's pretty hard to find out who is actually using 3.0, and get any feedback from them. I suppose a general query on clp might get some feedback, but otherwise, what? I've not seen any significant amount of blog activity on 3.0. I teach programming in a CS dept. at a UK university. We've been teaching Python in one context or another for 5 years now, and are currently in our second year of teaching it as the primary programming language. We have to make decisions on software versions for the coming academic year during the summer months. This means that we've had to be content this year with Python 2.5. We'd love to switch to 3.0 as soon as possible (i.e., Oct 2009), as it is a significantly cleaner language for our purposes. However, we make extensive use of third-party libraries and frameworks such as Pygame, wxPython, etc, to increase the motivation levels of students. The 3.0-readiness of these libraries and frameworks is inevitably going to be a factor in the decision we make this summer. Nick ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Python developers are in demand
Interesting to see discussion on supply and demand issues for Python programmers. You might be interested to learn that, after a few years of flirting with Python in various ways, the School of Computing at the University of Leeds has recently switched to teaching Python as the first and primary programming language for undergraduates on all of our degree programmes. I know we're not the only ones doing this, so perhaps the supply will rise to meet the demand in a few years! Nick -- Dr Nick Efford, School of | E: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Computing, University of | T: +44 113 343 6809 Leeds, Leeds, LS2 9JT, UK | W: http://www.comp.leeds.ac.uk/nde/ --+- PGP fingerprint: 6ADF 16C2 4E2D 320B F537 8F3C 402D 1C78 A668 8492 ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
