Re: [Python-Dev] Removing IDLE from the standard library
On Sun, Jul 11, 2010 at 8:22 PM, geremy condra debat...@gmail.com wrote: On Sun, Jul 11, 2010 at 3:38 PM, Antoine Pitrou solip...@pitrou.net wrote: On Sun, 11 Jul 2010 14:59:14 -0400 Glyph Lefkowitz gl...@twistedmatrix.com wrote: Guido proposes to give someone interested in IDLE commit access, and hopefully that will help in this particular area. But, as I recall, at the last language summit there was quite a bit of discussion about how to address the broader issue of patches falling into a black hole. Is anybody working on it? I think the best way to work on it is to work on having more core developers, possibly with a more diverse range of interests. (This seems to me like an area where a judicious application of PSF funds might help; if every single bug were actively triaged and responded to, even if it weren't reviewed, and patch contributors were directed to take specific steps to elicit a response or a review, the fact that patch reviews take a while might not be so bad.) The operative word being judicious. It is not obvious who should get funded, and for what tasks. Some specific issues (like email in 3.x) are large enough that they can be the sole focus of a fund grant. But I'm not sure triaging can apply. I'm mulling over starting a monthly triage sprint under the auspices of Jesse Noeller's PSF sponsored sprints in the hopes of making this a little more fun. I'd appreciate comments on the idea. Geremy Condra Apologies, Jesse, I thought your name had an extra 'e' in it. Geremy Condra ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Removing IDLE from the standard library
On Sun, Jul 11, 2010 at 8:07 PM, Mark Lawrence breamore...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: I see. What copy have you been using specifically? I think I need to remove myself from these lists. Regards, Martin Hi Martin, Again thanks for the response. I've been working from this:- http://svn.python.org/view/*checkout*/python/branches/py3k/Misc/maintainers.rst It strikes me as being so sadly outdated that it's getting less than useless, or I assume that it's the same old case of not enough volunteers? Why did I bother. :) Kindest regards. Mark Lawrence. That file is too young to be out of date, and like I said, I've found the help useful Mark, so I wouldn't throw your hands up. That file should probably be updated/refreshed as people want, the idea behind it was to build a table of experts or people who voluntarily sign up to be the more active maintainers for a domain or standard library module. I maintain the idea is a good one - even if Martin wants off due to lack of time, it's important for people who are just coming in, such as Mark, to have some idea of where or *who* to talk to about something specific. We can obviously see the frightening number of gaps we have for specific maintainers. jesse ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Removing IDLE from the standard library
On Sun, Jul 11, 2010 at 8:22 PM, geremy condra debat...@gmail.com wrote: On Sun, Jul 11, 2010 at 3:38 PM, Antoine Pitrou solip...@pitrou.net wrote: On Sun, 11 Jul 2010 14:59:14 -0400 Glyph Lefkowitz gl...@twistedmatrix.com wrote: Guido proposes to give someone interested in IDLE commit access, and hopefully that will help in this particular area. But, as I recall, at the last language summit there was quite a bit of discussion about how to address the broader issue of patches falling into a black hole. Is anybody working on it? I think the best way to work on it is to work on having more core developers, possibly with a more diverse range of interests. (This seems to me like an area where a judicious application of PSF funds might help; if every single bug were actively triaged and responded to, even if it weren't reviewed, and patch contributors were directed to take specific steps to elicit a response or a review, the fact that patch reviews take a while might not be so bad.) The operative word being judicious. It is not obvious who should get funded, and for what tasks. Some specific issues (like email in 3.x) are large enough that they can be the sole focus of a fund grant. But I'm not sure triaging can apply. I'm mulling over starting a monthly triage sprint under the auspices of Jesse Noeller's PSF sponsored sprints in the hopes of making this a little more fun. I'd appreciate comments on the idea. Geremy Condra Well, I'd like to get the sprint how to docs in shape, and then yeah - we can totally do this. The sprints focuses were designed to help with this pain (as others have pointed out) as well as other pain points we've seen. Also note, hosting a virtual sprint or something like that, which the sponsored sprint group simply helps advertise and promote can help with this as well. It's important though, when looking at triaging to keep in mind: Moving the bug around (reassigning, etc) is of minimal use in a fair number of cases - now, making sure it has a reproducible test case (and can be reproduced), making sure the broken platforms are enumerated, that patches have tests and docs (and are based on the current trunk/whatever) and so on are much more valuable in the long run. Just some food for thought - and something to keep in mind if and when we get to document more of this/etc. jesse ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Removing IDLE from the standard library
On 7/11/2010 2:40 PM, Martin v. Löwis wrote: Guido There clearly are *some* folks who care enough about IDLE to submit bug reports and fixes. How about we empower these people by giving at least one of them commit privileges? IDLE development has often been done by people who aren't otherwise contributing to the core, and we surely should trust those folks with commit privileges. It appears Guiherme Polo already has commit privileges and just needs help exercising them, which I have offered, along with Martin's encouragement. Multiple IDLE maintainers would be even better. Mark Lawrence Can I take a really big liberty and volunteer Terry Reedy for the job. Thank you for the nomination. If Terry would volunteer himself, he'd get commit access in no time. What I specifically want right now is Commit Authorization Privilege, especially for IDLE, but in general would be fine. I am thinking about working working one or more 'beginners' who are 'shy' about acting independently, or who are not yet authorized to do so, and who would like help getting their feet 'wet', so to speak. I think I would enjoy this sort of pair development. In regard to IDLE, who, short of Guido, is in charge? Is there a design doc? It appears that several people have ideas in their heads, such as 'keep it simple'. Abstractly, I agree with that, but who decides what is simple, to the point of vetoing something as 'too complex'? -- Terry Jan Reedy ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Python-Dev] Removing IDLE from the standard library
Hello, I would like to propose removing IDLE from the standard library. I have been using IDLE since 2002 and have been doing my best to help maintain and further develop IDLE since 2005. In recent years IDLE has received negligible interest and attention from the Python community. During this time IDLE has slowly gone downhill. The documentation and tutorials grow increasingly out of date. Cross-platform support has degraded with the increasing popularity of OSX and 64-bit platforms. Bugs take months, and sometimes more than a year, to be solved. Features that have since become common-place, such as having a non-intrusive search box instead of a dialog, are obviously and painfully lacking, making IDLE feel clumsy and out-dated. For these reasons, I think it would be fitting to remove IDLE from the standard library. IDLE is no longer recommended to beginners, IMO rightfully so, and this was the main reason for its inclusion in the standard library. Furthermore, if there is little or no interest in developing and maintaining IDLE, it should be removed to avoid having buggy and badly supported software in the standard library. - Tal Einat ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Removing IDLE from the standard library
On 7/10/2010 7:05 PM, Tal Einat wrote: Hello, I would like to propose removing IDLE from the standard library. -1 I use it daily. On Windows, it works better in many ways than the awful interactive command window, which I almost never use. I would rather the latter be replaced. I have been using IDLE since 2002 and have been doing my best to help maintain and further develop IDLE since 2005. In recent years IDLE has received negligible interest and attention from the Python community. During this time IDLE has slowly gone downhill. I would say that it has not gone uphill. The documentation and tutorials grow increasingly out of date. Cross-platform support has degraded with the increasing popularity of OSX and 64-bit platforms. Does it not work with the 64bit Windows build? Bugs take months, and sometimes more than a year, to be solved. The problem here, it seems to me, is that all issues are autoassigned to an inactive person (KBK) who does not really accept them except once a year or so. I do not know whether all other commiter are unwilling to commit IDLE issues, no matter how obvious and trivial, or if they all think they 'belong' to KBK. If and when I get a development setup, learn how to apply patches, and get commit privileges, I would want to be able to work on IDLE issues. Features that have since become common-place, such as having a non-intrusive search box instead of a dialog, are obviously and painfully lacking, making IDLE feel clumsy and out-dated. I do not know what you mean here, so the 'lack' is completely unobvious and non-painful to me. The IDLE search/replace box strikes as being as good as that I have seen with other Windows software. For these reasons, I think it would be fitting to remove IDLE from the standard library. IDLE is no longer recommended to beginners, IMO rightfully so, and this was the main reason for its inclusion in the standard library. Is there a superiour replacement that you would recommend to be packaged with the Windows distribution? It would have to have a shell replacement also. Furthermore, if there is little or no interest in developing and maintaining IDLE, it should be removed to avoid having buggy and badly supported software in the standard library. For my day to day use of the shell and editor, there are no serious bugs. -- Terry Jan Reedy ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Removing IDLE from the standard library
Hello Tal, I would like to propose removing IDLE from the standard library. -1. One of the biggest selling points for me when switching to python was the out of the box working IDE with REPL, syntax highliting and a debugger. The only other candidate I think of to replace IDLE might be IPython. However for novice users who are not used to command line it might be too intimidating. There are my others IDEs out there, some better some worse. However IMO to have one bundled with Python is highly important. Cross-platform support has degraded with the increasing popularity of OSX and 64-bit platforms. I use IDLE on Ubuntu 64bit and before that on OS X 64 bit, never had a problem. Can you give some examples on what do you mean by cross-platform support? All the best, -- Miki ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Removing IDLE from the standard library
2010/7/10 Miki Tebeka miki.teb...@gmail.com: Hello Tal, I would like to propose removing IDLE from the standard library. -1. One of the biggest selling points for me when switching to python was the out of the box working IDE with REPL, syntax highliting and a debugger. The only other candidate I think of to replace IDLE might be IPython. However for novice users who are not used to command line it might be too intimidating. There are my others IDEs out there, some better some worse. However IMO to have one bundled with Python is highly important. Cross-platform support has degraded with the increasing popularity of OSX and 64-bit platforms. I use IDLE on Ubuntu 64bit and before that on OS X 64 bit, never had a problem. Can you give some examples on what do you mean by cross-platform support? By never had a problem do you mean using some of the latest versions ? Here, running idle from a mac terminal and trying to type: print hi crashes when entering the quotation mark. I'm mostly sure this has been fixed on versions newer than 2.6.1 (but I hope you agree with me that shouldn't happen with a version distributed on macosx), so my another example is in the form of a question: how functional is the current IDLE debugger when running on a Mac ? -- -- Guilherme H. Polo Goncalves ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Removing IDLE from the standard library
On Jul 10, 2010, at 9:23 PM, Guilherme Polo wrote: 2010/7/10 Miki Tebeka miki.teb...@gmail.com: Hello Tal, I would like to propose removing IDLE from the standard library. -1. -1 from me too. IDLE is the tool I almost always used to introduce people to Python. FWIW, I've run in on a Mac and Windows without problems. Raymond ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
