Re: [Python-Dev] How do we tell if we're helping or hindering the core development process? (was Re: How far to go with user-friendliness)

"Stephen J. Turnbull" writes: > […] The "meta" of "special cases aren't special enough to break the > rules" is that no design decision that violates it should be dismissed > as "minor". Thank you. That dismissal was very upsetting; essentially telling Python users that their concerns for a clea

Re: [Python-Dev] How do we tell if we're helping or hindering the core development process? (was Re: How far to go with user-friendliness)

On 23 July 2015 at 03:01, Alexander Belopolsky wrote: > On Wed, Jul 22, 2015 at 7:09 AM, Paul Moore wrote: >> >> does anyone seriously think a core dev >> commits code as a joke??? > > > Yes, . :-) Second person to pick me up on that :-) Paul

Re: [Python-Dev] How do we tell if we're helping or hindering the core development process? (was Re: How far to go with user-friendliness)

On Wed, Jul 22, 2015 at 7:09 AM, Paul Moore wrote: > does anyone seriously think a core dev > commits code as a joke??? > Yes, . :-) ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org https://mail.python.o

Re: [Python-Dev] How do we tell if we're helping or hindering the core development process? (was Re: How far to go with user-friendliness)

On 22 July 2015 at 12:09, Paul Moore wrote: > 5. Assume that the decision was well-considered and made with good > reasons. If you don't understand the reasons, and feel you need to, > ask for them, but refrain from judgement until you have the reasons. > The original mail in this thread ("is this

Re: [Python-Dev] How do we tell if we're helping or hindering the core development process? (was Re: How far to go with user-friendliness)

On 22 July 2015 at 03:18, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote: > The only *practical* suggestion from "the core" has been self- > restraint on the part of "the crowd" I would have said the following has been covered, but maybe not. At the risk of repeating something that's already been said, here are some

Re: [Python-Dev] How do we tell if we're helping or hindering the core development process? (was Re: How far to go with user-friendliness)

Nick Coghlan writes: > The draining and demotivating cases are the ones where *no new > information is introduced*, but the design decision is *challenged > anyway*. But this particular thread is an extreme case, that demonstrates why this kind of thing happens *despite* the good intentions of

Re: [Python-Dev] How do we tell if we're helping or hindering the core development process? (was Re: How far to go with user-friendliness)

Ben Finney writes: > Definitely agreed, and I'm not implying otherwise. > > There is a distinction to be drawn: > > * If challenged to do so, could one (the contributor) present a > compelling justification for the change? Aside from Paul's disclaimer, this is way too high a bar. Nick

Re: [Python-Dev] How do we tell if we're helping or hindering the core development process? (was Re: How far to go with user-friendliness)

On 21 July 2015 at 19:40, Nick Coghlan wrote: > On 20 July 2015 at 22:34, Ben Finney wrote: >> Paul Moore writes: >> >>> Again, I'm sorry to pick on one sentence out of context, but it cut >>> straight to my biggest fear when doing a commit (on any project) - >>> what if, after all the worrying

Re: [Python-Dev] How do we tell if we're helping or hindering the core development process? (was Re: How far to go with user-friendliness)

On 21 July 2015 at 00:34, Ben Finney wrote: > Paul Moore writes: > >> Again, I'm sorry to pick on one sentence out of context, but it cut >> straight to my biggest fear when doing a commit (on any project) - >> what if, after all the worrying and consideration I put into doing >> this commit, peo

Re: [Python-Dev] How do we tell if we're helping or hindering the core development process? (was Re: How far to go with user-friendliness)

On 21 July 2015 at 21:19, Paul Moore wrote: > On 21 July 2015 at 11:03, Ben Finney wrote: >> * If challenged to do so, could one (the contributor) present a >> compelling justification for the change? >> >> This is what I claim Paul Moore's doubt (fear?) is indicative of. I >> maintain that

Re: [Python-Dev] How do we tell if we're helping or hindering the core development process? (was Re: How far to go with user-friendliness)

On 21 July 2015 at 11:03, Ben Finney wrote: > * If challenged to do so, could one (the contributor) present a > compelling justification for the change? > > This is what I claim Paul Moore's doubt (fear?) is indicative of. I > maintain that this doubt is quite healthy: it helps the contribut

Re: [Python-Dev] How do we tell if we're helping or hindering the core development process? (was Re: How far to go with user-friendliness)

Nick Coghlan writes: > On 20 July 2015 at 22:34, Ben Finney wrote: > > Paul Moore writes: > > > >> […] my biggest fear when doing a commit (on any project) - what if, > >> after all the worrying and consideration I put into doing this > >> commit, people disagree with me (or worse still, I made

Re: [Python-Dev] How do we tell if we're helping or hindering the core development process? (was Re: How far to go with user-friendliness)

Hello, since this thread is restarting in debriefing mode: one thing struck me as a non-committer following python-dev. It seems that we (non-committers) have a difficulty making the distinction between pre-implementation design discussions (PEPs beeing the typical example), where relevant techni

[Python-Dev] How do we tell if we're helping or hindering the core development process? (was Re: How far to go with user-friendliness)

On 20 July 2015 at 22:34, Ben Finney wrote: > Paul Moore writes: > >> Again, I'm sorry to pick on one sentence out of context, but it cut >> straight to my biggest fear when doing a commit (on any project) - >> what if, after all the worrying and consideration I put into doing >> this commit, peo