Re: [Python-Dev] Inconsistent script/console behaviour
On Mon, Dec 19, 2011 at 7:47 AM, Stephen J. Turnbull step...@xemacs.orgwrote: Fernando Perez writes: Apology for the advertising, If there's any apologizing to be done, it's on Anatoly's part. Your post was short, to the point, information-packed, and should put a big fat open-centered ideographic full stop period to this thread. Fernando clearly showed that IPython rocks, because CPython suxx. I don't think anybody should apologize for the intention to fix this by enhancing CPython, so as a python-dev subscriber you should be ashamed of yourself for this proposal already. ;) Thanks everyone else for explaining the problem with current implementation. I'll post a follow-up as soon as I have a time to wrap my head around the details and see for myself why the IPython solution is so hard to implement. -- anatoly t. ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Inconsistent script/console behaviour
anatoly techtonik writes: Fernando clearly showed that IPython rocks, because CPython suxx. sigh/ No, IPython rocks because it focuses on doing one thing well: providing an interactive environment that takes advantage of the many features that Python provides in support. CPython should do the same: specifically, focus on the *language* that we all consider excellent but still can be improved, and on the (still) leading implementation of the language and the stdlib.[1] so as a python-dev subscriber you should be ashamed of yourself for this proposal already. ;) ROTFLMAO! No, I still think you're making an awfully big deal of something that doesn't need fixing, and I wish you would stop. Footnotes: [1] Note that this *is* *one* task, because CPython has chosen a definition of language excellence that includes prototype implementation of proposed language features and batteries included. ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Inconsistent script/console behaviour
Fernando Perez writes: Apology for the advertising, If there's any apologizing to be done, it's on Anatoly's part. Your post was short, to the point, information-packed, and should put a big fat open-centered ideographic full stop period to this thread. ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Inconsistent script/console behaviour
On Fri, 23 Sep 2011 16:32:30 -0700, Guido van Rossum wrote: You can't fix this without completely changing the way the interactive console treats blank lines. None that it's not just that a blank line is required after a function definition -- you also *can't* have a blank line *inside* a function definition. The interactive console is optimized for people entering code by typing, not by copying and pasting large gobs of text. If you think you can have it both, show us the code. Apology for the advertising, but if the OP is really interested in that kind of behavior, then instead of asking for making the default shell more complex, he can use ipython which supports what he's looking for: In [5]: def some(): ...: print 'xxx' ...: some() ...: xxx and even blank lines inside functions (albeit only in certain locations): In [6]: def some(): ...: ...: print 'xxx' ...: some() ...: xxx Now, the dances we have to do in ipython to achieve that are much more complex than what would be reasonable to have in the default '' python shell, which should remain simple, light and robust. But ipython is a simple install for someone who wants fancier features for interactive work. Cheers, f ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Inconsistent script/console behaviour
On Sat, Sep 24, 2011 at 11:27 AM, Georg Brandl g.bra...@gmx.net wrote: Am 24.09.2011 01:32, schrieb Guido van Rossum: On Fri, Sep 23, 2011 at 4:25 PM, anatoly techtonik techto...@gmail.com wrote: Currently if you work in console and define a function and then immediately call it - it will fail with SyntaxError. For example, copy paste this completely valid Python script into console: def some(): print XXX some() There is an issue for that that was just closed by Eric. However, I'd like to know if there are people here that agree that if you paste a valid Python script into console - it should work without changes. You can't fix this without completely changing the way the interactive console treats blank lines. None that it's not just that a blank line is required after a function definition -- you also *can't* have a blank line *inside* a function definition. While the former could be changed (I think), the latter certainly cannot. So it's probably not worth changing established behavior. I've just hit this UX bug once more, but now I more prepared. Despite Guido's proposal to move into python-ideas, I continue discussion here, because: 1. It is not a proposal, but a defect (well, you may argue, but please, don't) 2. This thread has a history of analysis of what's going wrong in console 3. This thread also has developer's decision that answers the question why it's so wrong? and why it can't/won't be fixed 4. Yesterday I've heard from a Java person that Python is hard to pick up and remembered how I struggled with indentation myself trying to 'learn by example' in console Right now I am trying to cope with point (3.). To summarize, let's speak code that is copy/pasted into console. Two things that will make me happy if they behave consistently in console from .py file: ---ex1--- def some(): print XXX some() ---/ex1--- --ex1.output-- [ex1.py] XXX [console] File stdin, line 3 some() ^ SyntaxError: invalid syntax --/ex1.output-- --ex2-- def some(): pass --/ex2-- --ex2.output-- [ex2.py] File ./ex2.py, line 2 pass ^ IndentationError: expected an indented block [console] File stdin, line 2 pass ^ IndentationError: expected an indented block --/ex2.output-- The second example already works as expected. Why it is not possible to fix ex1? Guido said: You can't fix this without completely changing the way the interactive console treats blank lines. But the fix doesn't require changing the way interactive console treats blank lines at all. It only requires to finish current block when a dedented line is encountered and not throwing obviously confusing SyntaxError. At the very least it should not say it is SyntaxError, because the code is pretty valid Python code. If it appears to be invalid Python Console code - the error message should say that explicitly. That would be a correct user-friendly fix for this UX issue, but I'd still like the behavior to be fixed - i.e. allow dedented lines end current block in console without SyntaxError. Right now I don't see the reasons why it is not possible. Please speak code when replying about use cases/examples that will be broken - I didn't quite get the problem with global scope if statements. -- anatoly t. ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Inconsistent script/console behaviour
Il 15 dicembre 2011 09:58, anatoly techtonik techto...@gmail.com ha scritto: 1. It is not a proposal, but a defect (well, you may argue, but please, don't) You can't copy/paste multiline scripts into system shell either, unless you append \. It's likely that similar problems exists in a lot of other interactive shells (ruby?). And that makes sense to me, because they are supposed to be used interactively. It might be good to change this? Maybe. Is the current behavior objectively wrong? No, in my opinion. --- Giampaolo http://code.google.com/p/pyftpdlib/ http://code.google.com/p/psutil/ ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Inconsistent script/console behaviour
On 12/15/2011 3:58 AM, anatoly techtonik wrote: 1. It is not a proposal, but a defect (well, you may argue, but please, don't) You state a controversial opinion as a fact and then request that others not discuss it. To me, this is a somewhat obnoxious hit-and-run tactic. If you do not want the point discussed, don't bring it up. Anyway, I will follow your request and not argue. Since that opinion is a central point, not discussing it does not leave much to say. -- Terry Jan Reedy ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Inconsistent script/console behaviour
On 24/09/2011 00:32, Guido van Rossum wrote: The interactive console is optimized for people entering code by typing, not by copying and pasting large gobs of text. If you think you can have it both, show us the code. Anatoly wants ipython's new qtconsole. This does the right thing because it's a GUI app and so can manipulate the content on paste... Not sure if you can do that in a console app... cheers, Chris -- Simplistix - Content Management, Batch Processing Python Consulting - http://www.simplistix.co.uk ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Inconsistent script/console behaviour
Am 24.09.2011 01:32, schrieb Guido van Rossum: On Fri, Sep 23, 2011 at 4:25 PM, anatoly techtonik techto...@gmail.com wrote: Currently if you work in console and define a function and then immediately call it - it will fail with SyntaxError. For example, copy paste this completely valid Python script into console: def some(): print XXX some() There is an issue for that that was just closed by Eric. However, I'd like to know if there are people here that agree that if you paste a valid Python script into console - it should work without changes. You can't fix this without completely changing the way the interactive console treats blank lines. None that it's not just that a blank line is required after a function definition -- you also *can't* have a blank line *inside* a function definition. While the former could be changed (I think), the latter certainly cannot. So it's probably not worth changing established behavior. Georg ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Inconsistent script/console behaviour
Could you elaborate on what would be wrong if function definitions ended only after an explicitly less indented line? The only problem that comes to mind is global scope if statements that wouldn't execute when expected (we actually might need to terminate them with a dedented pass). On Sep 24, 2011 4:26 AM, Georg Brandl g.bra...@gmx.net wrote: Am 24.09.2011 01:32, schrieb Guido van Rossum: On Fri, Sep 23, 2011 at 4:25 PM, anatoly techtonik techto...@gmail.com wrote: Currently if you work in console and define a function and then immediately call it - it will fail with SyntaxError. For example, copy paste this completely valid Python script into console: def some(): print XXX some() There is an issue for that that was just closed by Eric. However, I'd like to know if there are people here that agree that if you paste a valid Python script into console - it should work without changes. You can't fix this without completely changing the way the interactive console treats blank lines. None that it's not just that a blank line is required after a function definition -- you also *can't* have a blank line *inside* a function definition. While the former could be changed (I think), the latter certainly cannot. So it's probably not worth changing established behavior. Georg ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/ubershmekel%40gmail.com ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Inconsistent script/console behaviour
You're right that in principle for function definitions there is no ambiguity. But you also presented the downfall of that proposal: all multi-clause statements will still need an explicit way of termination, and of course the pass would be exceedingly ugly, not to mention much more confusing than the current way. Georg Am 24.09.2011 11:53, schrieb Yuval Greenfield: Could you elaborate on what would be wrong if function definitions ended only after an explicitly less indented line? The only problem that comes to mind is global scope if statements that wouldn't execute when expected (we actually might need to terminate them with a dedented pass). On Sep 24, 2011 4:26 AM, Georg Brandl g.bra...@gmx.net mailto:g.bra...@gmx.net wrote: Am 24.09.2011 01:32, schrieb Guido van Rossum: On Fri, Sep 23, 2011 at 4:25 PM, anatoly techtonik techto...@gmail.com mailto:techto...@gmail.com wrote: Currently if you work in console and define a function and then immediately call it - it will fail with SyntaxError. For example, copy paste this completely valid Python script into console: def some(): print XXX some() There is an issue for that that was just closed by Eric. However, I'd like to know if there are people here that agree that if you paste a valid Python script into console - it should work without changes. You can't fix this without completely changing the way the interactive console treats blank lines. None that it's not just that a blank line is required after a function definition -- you also *can't* have a blank line *inside* a function definition. While the former could be changed (I think), the latter certainly cannot. So it's probably not worth changing established behavior. ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Inconsistent script/console behaviour
I see a lot of flawed proposals. This is clearly a python-ideas
discussion. (Anatoly, take note -- please post your new gripe there.)
In the mean time, there's a reasonable work-around if you have to
copy/paste a large block of formatted code:
exec('''
.
.
.
put anything you like here
.
.
.
''')
The only thing that you can't put in there is a triple-quoted string
using single quotes.
--
--Guido van Rossum (python.org/~guido)
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[Python-Dev] Inconsistent script/console behaviour
Currently if you work in console and define a function and then immediately call it - it will fail with SyntaxError. For example, copy paste this completely valid Python script into console: def some(): print XXX some() There is an issue for that that was just closed by Eric. However, I'd like to know if there are people here that agree that if you paste a valid Python script into console - it should work without changes. -- anatoly t. ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Inconsistent script/console behaviour
On Fri, Sep 23, 2011 at 4:25 PM, anatoly techtonik techto...@gmail.com wrote: Currently if you work in console and define a function and then immediately call it - it will fail with SyntaxError. For example, copy paste this completely valid Python script into console: def some(): print XXX some() There is an issue for that that was just closed by Eric. However, I'd like to know if there are people here that agree that if you paste a valid Python script into console - it should work without changes. You can't fix this without completely changing the way the interactive console treats blank lines. None that it's not just that a blank line is required after a function definition -- you also *can't* have a blank line *inside* a function definition. The interactive console is optimized for people entering code by typing, not by copying and pasting large gobs of text. If you think you can have it both, show us the code. -- --Guido van Rossum (python.org/~guido) ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Inconsistent script/console behaviour
I agree that it should and it doesn't. I also recall that not having empty lines between function/class definitions can cause indentation errors when pasting to the console on my windows machine. --Yuval On Sep 23, 2011 7:26 PM, anatoly techtonik techto...@gmail.com wrote: Currently if you work in console and define a function and then immediately call it - it will fail with SyntaxError. For example, copy paste this completely valid Python script into console: def some(): print XXX some() There is an issue for that that was just closed by Eric. However, I'd like to know if there are people here that agree that if you paste a valid Python script into console - it should work without changes. -- anatoly t. ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/ubershmekel%40gmail.com ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Inconsistent script/console behaviour
On 9/23/2011 7:25 PM, anatoly techtonik wrote: Currently if you work in console and define a function and then immediately call it - it will fail with SyntaxError. For example, copy paste this completely valid Python script into console: def some(): print XXX some() There is an issue for that that was just closed by Eric. However, I'd like to know if there are people here that agree that if you paste a valid Python script into console - it should work without changes. For this kind of multi-line, multi-statemenmt pasting, open an IDLE edit window for tem.py (my name) or such, paste, run with F5. I have found that this works for me than direct pasting. A interactive lisp interpreter can detect end-of-statement without a blank line by matching a closing paren to the open paren that starts every expression. -- Terry Jan Reedy ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Inconsistent script/console behaviour
On Fri, Sep 23, 2011 at 18:49, Terry Reedy tjre...@udel.edu wrote: A interactive lisp interpreter can detect end-of-statement without a blank line by matching a closing paren to the open paren that starts every expression. Braces-loving programmers around the world are feverishly writing a PEP as we speak. ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
