[Python-Dev] Re: Distro packagers: PEP 615 and the tzdata dependency

[Brett Cannon]

On Sun, Nov 29, 2020 at 8:54 AM Miro Hrončok  wrote:

> On 11/28/20 9:30 PM, Paul Ganssle wrote:
> > Considering the people involved and the nature of the list, I suspect
> that
> > adding a new @python.org mailing list would be better than discourse.
> In my
> > experience, it's very difficult to just follow a single topic on the
> discourse,
> > and most people complain that the e-mail integration is not great. For
> something
> > like, "Here's a head's up about something affecting distributors", I
> don't think
> > Discourse offers much in the way of advantages.
> >
> > My guess is that distributors would be happiest with a relatively
> low-volume
> > e-mail list that would point to discussions happening elsewhere (or that
> > announces changes relevant to distributors).
>
> I totally agree with that. Following a mailing list is simple. Following a
> category on discuss.python.org not so much.
>

Then someone else will need to set that up as I don't manage new mailing
lists anymore. 😁

-Brett


>
> I understand the argument that mailing lists are weird for new
> contributors
> etc., but I guess that distributors need to know how to handle mailing
> lists
> already anyway.
>
> --
> Miro Hrončok
> --
> Phone: +420777974800
> IRC: mhroncok
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[Python-Dev] Re: Distro packagers: PEP 615 and the tzdata dependency

[Miro Hrončok]

On 11/28/20 9:30 PM, Paul Ganssle wrote:
Considering the people involved and the nature of the list, I suspect that 
adding a new @python.org mailing list would be better than discourse. In my 
experience, it's very difficult to just follow a single topic on the discourse, 
and most people complain that the e-mail integration is not great. For something 
like, "Here's a head's up about something affecting distributors", I don't think 
Discourse offers much in the way of advantages.


My guess is that distributors would be happiest with a relatively low-volume 
e-mail list that would point to discussions happening elsewhere (or that 
announces changes relevant to distributors).


I totally agree with that. Following a mailing list is simple. Following a 
category on discuss.python.org not so much.


I understand the argument that mailing lists are weird for new contributors 
etc., but I guess that distributors need to know how to handle mailing lists 
already anyway.


--
Miro Hrončok
--
Phone: +420777974800
IRC: mhroncok
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[Python-Dev] Re: Distro packagers: PEP 615 and the tzdata dependency

[Frederik Rietdijk]

I would subscribe as well for Nixpkgs.

On Tue, Nov 24, 2020 at 6:02 PM Tianon Gravi  wrote:

> > I'd love to have an easy way to keep them in the loop.
>
> I'm one of the maintainers on https://github.com/docker-library/python
> (which is what results in https://hub.docker.com/_/python), and I'd
> love to have an easy way to keep myself in the loop too! O:)
>
> Is there a lower-frequency mailing list where things like this are
> normally posted that I could follow?
> (I don't want to be a burden, although we'd certainly really love to
> have more upstream collaboration on that repo -- we do our best to
> represent upstream as correctly/accurately as possible, but we're not
> experts!)
>
> > would it make sense to add a packaging section to our documentation or
> > to write an informational PEP?
>
> FWIW, I love the idea of an explicit "packaging" section in the docs
> (or a PEP), but I've maintained that for other projects before and
> know it's not always easy or obvious. :)
>
> ♥,
> - Tianon
>   4096R / B42F 6819 007F 00F8 8E36  4FD4 036A 9C25 BF35 7DD4
>
> PS. thanks doko for giving me a link to this thread! :D
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[Python-Dev] Re: Distro packagers: PEP 615 and the tzdata dependency

[Nick Coghlan]

On Sun., 29 Nov. 2020, 6:31 am Paul Ganssle,  wrote:

> Considering the people involved and the nature of the list, I suspect that
> adding a new @python.org mailing list would be better than discourse. In
> my experience, it's very difficult to just follow a single topic on the
> discourse, and most people complain that the e-mail integration is not
> great. For something like, "Here's a head's up about something affecting
> distributors", I don't think Discourse offers much in the way of advantages.
>
> My guess is that distributors would be happiest with a relatively
> low-volume e-mail list that would point to discussions happening elsewhere
> (or that announces changes relevant to distributors).
>

For Linux distros specifically, we do have linux-sig, but we've never had
great general channels for consistently reaching Windows, cloud &
cross-platform distributors - those contacts have generally been more ad
hoc & personal.


We've occasionally had recommendations for redistributors in specific PEPs,
so having some level of structured documentation around CPython
redistribution would likely make sense. For example:

* a page on devguide.python.org 
* a reference to that page from the What's New for each release, that
either mentions any changes since the last release, or else notes that the
recommendations are unchanged

Cheers,
Nick.



Cheers,
Nick.


http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
>
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[Python-Dev] Re: Distro packagers: PEP 615 and the tzdata dependency

[Filipe Laíns]

On Sat, 2020-11-28 at 12:13 -0800, Brett Cannon wrote:
> So that's two people. If five people involved in the distribution of Python
> speak up I will go ahead and create a category on discuss.python.org (people
> can ask sooner, but my personal threshold here to do the work myself is 5 😄).

Count me it :)

Filipe Laíns


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[Python-Dev] Re: Distro packagers: PEP 615 and the tzdata dependency

[Paul Ganssle]

Considering the people involved and the nature of the list, I suspect
that adding a new @python.org mailing list would be better than
discourse. In my experience, it's very difficult to just follow a single
topic on the discourse, and most people complain that the e-mail
integration is not great. For something like, "Here's a head's up about
something affecting distributors", I don't think Discourse offers much
in the way of advantages.

My guess is that distributors would be happiest with a relatively
low-volume e-mail list that would point to discussions happening
elsewhere (or that announces changes relevant to distributors).

Best,
Paul

On 11/28/20 3:13 PM, Brett Cannon wrote:
> So that's two people. If five people involved in the distribution of
> Python speak up I will go ahead and create a category on
> discuss.python.org  (people can ask sooner,
> but my personal threshold here to do the work myself is 5 😄).
>
> On Wed., Nov. 25, 2020, 00:18 Petr Viktorin,  > wrote:
>
> On 11/24/20 7:50 PM, Brett Cannon wrote:
> > If enough people were interested we could create a "Distributors"
> > category on discuss.python.org 
> .
>
> I'd join :)
>
> >
> > On Tue, Nov 24, 2020 at 9:08 AM Tianon Gravi
> mailto:admwig...@gmail.com>
> > >> wrote:
> >
> >      > I'd love to have an easy way to keep them in the loop.
> >
> >     I'm one of the maintainers on
> >     https://github.com/docker-library/python
> >     
> >     (which is what results in https://hub.docker.com/_/python
> >     ), and I'd
> >     love to have an easy way to keep myself in the loop too! O:)
> >
> >     Is there a lower-frequency mailing list where things like
> this are
> >     normally posted that I could follow?
> >     (I don't want to be a burden, although we'd certainly really
> love to
> >     have more upstream collaboration on that repo -- we do our
> best to
> >     represent upstream as correctly/accurately as possible, but
> we're not
> >     experts!)
> >
> >      > would it make sense to add a packaging section to our
> >     documentation or
> >      > to write an informational PEP?
> >
> >     FWIW, I love the idea of an explicit "packaging" section in
> the docs
> >     (or a PEP), but I've maintained that for other projects
> before and
> >     know it's not always easy or obvious. :)
> >
> >     ♥,
> >     - Tianon
> >        4096R / B42F 6819 007F 00F8 8E36  4FD4 036A 9C25 BF35 7DD4
> >
> >     PS. thanks doko for giving me a link to this thread! :D
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[Python-Dev] Re: Distro packagers: PEP 615 and the tzdata dependency

[Brett Cannon]

So that's two people. If five people involved in the distribution of Python
speak up I will go ahead and create a category on discuss.python.org
(people can ask sooner, but my personal threshold here to do the work
myself is 5 😄).

On Wed., Nov. 25, 2020, 00:18 Petr Viktorin,  wrote:

> On 11/24/20 7:50 PM, Brett Cannon wrote:
> > If enough people were interested we could create a "Distributors"
> > category on discuss.python.org .
>
> I'd join :)
>
> >
> > On Tue, Nov 24, 2020 at 9:08 AM Tianon Gravi  > > wrote:
> >
> >  > I'd love to have an easy way to keep them in the loop.
> >
> > I'm one of the maintainers on
> > https://github.com/docker-library/python
> > 
> > (which is what results in https://hub.docker.com/_/python
> > ), and I'd
> > love to have an easy way to keep myself in the loop too! O:)
> >
> > Is there a lower-frequency mailing list where things like this are
> > normally posted that I could follow?
> > (I don't want to be a burden, although we'd certainly really love to
> > have more upstream collaboration on that repo -- we do our best to
> > represent upstream as correctly/accurately as possible, but we're not
> > experts!)
> >
> >  > would it make sense to add a packaging section to our
> > documentation or
> >  > to write an informational PEP?
> >
> > FWIW, I love the idea of an explicit "packaging" section in the docs
> > (or a PEP), but I've maintained that for other projects before and
> > know it's not always easy or obvious. :)
> >
> > ♥,
> > - Tianon
> >4096R / B42F 6819 007F 00F8 8E36  4FD4 036A 9C25 BF35 7DD4
> >
> > PS. thanks doko for giving me a link to this thread! :D
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[Python-Dev] Re: Distro packagers: PEP 615 and the tzdata dependency

[Petr Viktorin]

On 11/24/20 7:50 PM, Brett Cannon wrote:
If enough people were interested we could create a "Distributors" 
category on discuss.python.org .


I'd join :)



On Tue, Nov 24, 2020 at 9:08 AM Tianon Gravi > wrote:


 > I'd love to have an easy way to keep them in the loop.

I'm one of the maintainers on
https://github.com/docker-library/python

(which is what results in https://hub.docker.com/_/python
), and I'd
love to have an easy way to keep myself in the loop too! O:)

Is there a lower-frequency mailing list where things like this are
normally posted that I could follow?
(I don't want to be a burden, although we'd certainly really love to
have more upstream collaboration on that repo -- we do our best to
represent upstream as correctly/accurately as possible, but we're not
experts!)

 > would it make sense to add a packaging section to our
documentation or
 > to write an informational PEP?

FWIW, I love the idea of an explicit "packaging" section in the docs
(or a PEP), but I've maintained that for other projects before and
know it's not always easy or obvious. :)

♥,
- Tianon
   4096R / B42F 6819 007F 00F8 8E36  4FD4 036A 9C25 BF35 7DD4

PS. thanks doko for giving me a link to this thread! :D

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[Python-Dev] Re: Distro packagers: PEP 615 and the tzdata dependency

[Brett Cannon]

If enough people were interested we could create a "Distributors" category
on discuss.python.org.

On Tue, Nov 24, 2020 at 9:08 AM Tianon Gravi  wrote:

> > I'd love to have an easy way to keep them in the loop.
>
> I'm one of the maintainers on https://github.com/docker-library/python
> (which is what results in https://hub.docker.com/_/python), and I'd
> love to have an easy way to keep myself in the loop too! O:)
>
> Is there a lower-frequency mailing list where things like this are
> normally posted that I could follow?
> (I don't want to be a burden, although we'd certainly really love to
> have more upstream collaboration on that repo -- we do our best to
> represent upstream as correctly/accurately as possible, but we're not
> experts!)
>
> > would it make sense to add a packaging section to our documentation or
> > to write an informational PEP?
>
> FWIW, I love the idea of an explicit "packaging" section in the docs
> (or a PEP), but I've maintained that for other projects before and
> know it's not always easy or obvious. :)
>
> ♥,
> - Tianon
>   4096R / B42F 6819 007F 00F8 8E36  4FD4 036A 9C25 BF35 7DD4
>
> PS. thanks doko for giving me a link to this thread! :D
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[Python-Dev] Re: Distro packagers: PEP 615 and the tzdata dependency

[Tianon Gravi]

> I'd love to have an easy way to keep them in the loop.

I'm one of the maintainers on https://github.com/docker-library/python
(which is what results in https://hub.docker.com/_/python), and I'd
love to have an easy way to keep myself in the loop too! O:)

Is there a lower-frequency mailing list where things like this are
normally posted that I could follow?
(I don't want to be a burden, although we'd certainly really love to
have more upstream collaboration on that repo -- we do our best to
represent upstream as correctly/accurately as possible, but we're not
experts!)

> would it make sense to add a packaging section to our documentation or
> to write an informational PEP?

FWIW, I love the idea of an explicit "packaging" section in the docs
(or a PEP), but I've maintained that for other projects before and
know it's not always easy or obvious. :)

♥,
- Tianon
  4096R / B42F 6819 007F 00F8 8E36  4FD4 036A 9C25 BF35 7DD4

PS. thanks doko for giving me a link to this thread! :D
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[Python-Dev] Re: Distro packagers: PEP 615 and the tzdata dependency

[Barry Warsaw]

On Nov 16, 2020, at 11:51, Paul Ganssle  wrote:
> 
> Not to put words in Barry's mouth, but I took Barry's comment to be more an 
> answer to the question of how to contact "distro packagers" as a group, more 
> than he was taking a position about this particular issue.

Correct!

Cheers,
-Barry



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[Python-Dev] Re: Distro packagers: PEP 615 and the tzdata dependency

[Paul Ganssle]

Good to know. I think one reason I wouldn't immediately think to send
things to Linux-SIG is that for me "distro packagers" also includes
people maintaining packages in the BSD, Solaris, conda-forge, homebrew,
etc ecosystems. It might make sense to have a dedicated list or
discourse for distro packagers, but as I don't meet the description I
don't know how useful it would be for me to opine on the form it should
take.

Best,
Paul

On 11/16/20 10:45 AM, Miro Hrončok wrote:
> On 11/16/20 4:10 PM, Paul Ganssle wrote:
>>> Maybe it would make sense to create a community mailing list for
>>> packagers?
>> That sounds like a good idea to me.
>
> I am following the Linux SIG mailing list. But it's mostly dead.
>
> https://mail.python.org/archives/list/linux-...@python.org/
>
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[Python-Dev] Re: Distro packagers: PEP 615 and the tzdata dependency

[Paul Ganssle]

> why is this dependency needed?  The tzdata package is marked with Priority
> required. See Debian policy 2.5.
>
> Matthias

Not to put words in Barry's mouth, but I took Barry's comment to be more
an answer to the question of how to contact "distro packagers" as a
group, more than he was taking a position about this particular issue.

That said, as I mentioned on the launchpad

and elsewhere in this thread, I think that, in general, it makes sense
to have an explicit dependency on tzdata as a clear indicator that we
actually have a direct dependency on tzdata, even if it's not
technically required because it's satisfied automatically for some
reason. It would make it easier for people to find packages that depend
on tzdata to notify us of issues (I've done something like this before —
`tzlocal` is planning to make a backwards-incompatible change to using
`zoneinfo`, and when I found out about this I dug up all the projects I
could find that explicitly depend on `tzlocal` to notify them of the
upcoming change).

It also is less fragile. As Christian mentioned in the launchpad issue,
zoneinfo is actually broken without a direct dependency on tzdata in the
ubuntu docker container — possibly that's a bug in the way the ubuntu
docker contianer is packaged, but it wouldn't be a problem for /us/ if
python had a dependency on tzdata. As far as I can tell it also wouldn't
hurt anything for this dependency to be made explicit rather than implicit.

That said — it's entirely up to individual package maintainers how they
want to handle their dependency metadata. The important thing I wanted
to convey to distro maintainers is that PEP 615 effectively is saying
that Python now depends on the system metadata package being present. If
there's no need to do anything because tzdata is an implicit dependency
for the entire Debian ecosystem then that's fine.

Best,
Paul

On 11/16/20 2:15 PM, Matthias Klose wrote:
> On 11/16/20 6:46 PM, Barry Warsaw wrote:
>> That’s what I was going to suggest.  I’m not doing any Debian or Ubuntu work 
>> these days, but Matthias Klose should be watching both lists, and should be 
>> able to handle the Debuntu stack.
>
>> -Barry
>>
>>> On Nov 16, 2020, at 07:45, Miro Hrončok  wrote:
>>>
>>> On 11/16/20 4:10 PM, Paul Ganssle wrote:
> Maybe it would make sense to create a community mailing list for
> packagers?
 That sounds like a good idea to me.
>>> I am following the Linux SIG mailing list. But it's mostly dead.
>>>
>>> https://mail.python.org/archives/list/linux-...@python.org/
>>>
>>> --
>>> Miro Hrončok
>>> --
>>> Phone: +420777974800
>>> IRC: mhroncok
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[Python-Dev] Re: Distro packagers: PEP 615 and the tzdata dependency

[Matthias Klose]

On 11/16/20 6:46 PM, Barry Warsaw wrote:
> That’s what I was going to suggest.  I’m not doing any Debian or Ubuntu work 
> these days, but Matthias Klose should be watching both lists, and should be 
> able to handle the Debuntu stack.

why is this dependency needed?  The tzdata package is marked with Priority
required. See Debian policy 2.5.

Matthias

> -Barry
> 
>> On Nov 16, 2020, at 07:45, Miro Hrončok  wrote:
>>
>> On 11/16/20 4:10 PM, Paul Ganssle wrote:
 Maybe it would make sense to create a community mailing list for
 packagers?
>>> That sounds like a good idea to me.
>>
>> I am following the Linux SIG mailing list. But it's mostly dead.
>>
>> https://mail.python.org/archives/list/linux-...@python.org/
>>
>> --
>> Miro Hrončok
>> --
>> Phone: +420777974800
>> IRC: mhroncok
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[Python-Dev] Re: Distro packagers: PEP 615 and the tzdata dependency

[Barry Warsaw]

That’s what I was going to suggest.  I’m not doing any Debian or Ubuntu work 
these days, but Matthias Klose should be watching both lists, and should be 
able to handle the Debuntu stack.

-Barry

> On Nov 16, 2020, at 07:45, Miro Hrončok  wrote:
> 
> On 11/16/20 4:10 PM, Paul Ganssle wrote:
>>> Maybe it would make sense to create a community mailing list for
>>> packagers?
>> That sounds like a good idea to me.
> 
> I am following the Linux SIG mailing list. But it's mostly dead.
> 
> https://mail.python.org/archives/list/linux-...@python.org/
> 
> --
> Miro Hrončok
> --
> Phone: +420777974800
> IRC: mhroncok
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[Python-Dev] Re: Distro packagers: PEP 615 and the tzdata dependency

[Filipe Laíns]

On Mon, 2020-11-16 at 09:32 -0500, Paul Ganssle wrote:
 
Hi all,
 
 One part of PEP 615 (IANA time zones) that I expected to be easily
overlooked (a point about which I seem to have been right) is the
recommendation that starting with Python 3.9, distros should add a
dependency on the system time zone data to the Python package. Quoting
the PEP:
 
 
> > Python distributors are encouraged to ensure that time zone data is
> installed alongside Python whenever possible (e.g. by declaring
> tzdata as a dependency for the python package).
>  
 
https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0615/#system-time-zone-information
 
I am not sure what is the best way to reach the largest number of
distro packagers to suggest that they add a dependency on tzdata for
Python 3.9+, so I figured I'd send a message here. If you know a distro
packager who does not follow this list, or you use a distro that
doesn't have a dependency on tzdata for Python 3.9, please forward this
e-mail to them and/or open a bug on their issue tracker.
 
 So far I know conda-forge got the dependency right from the first
Python 3.9 release, Fedora has plans to fix this, and Christian Heimes
has opened a bug on the Ubuntu launchpad for this. I will figure out
how best to notify Arch Linux and do that (since that's the distro I
use).
 
 I suspect this will be most important for distros that are heavily
used in containers, since tzdata is a common enough dependency that
it's likely to be satisfied accidentally in most full-featured user
environments anyway.
 
 Thanks!
 
 Paul
 
 
P.S. If there's a mailing list or other community for Python distro
packagers, please let me know, because I often find that we're making
decisions that affect them that they don't hear about until way down
the line. I'd love to have an easy way to keep them in the loop.

Hi,

In Arch Linux, tzdata is a dependency of glibc, which is part of the
base[1] package that should be present on every installation. So, there
is no action necessary :)
We could make it an explicit dependency, but that it not necessarily
required, it is up to the maintainer, whom I have notified.

I would say the best approach to reach distro packages is to open a bug
in their issue tracker, or to reach them via mailing list. Some of them
have specific mailing lists for Python, Fedora has python-devel[2].

Maybe it would make sense to create a community mailing list for
packagers?

I would also suggest to in the future maybe have a "For packagers"
section, or similar, in the release notes. I don't think right now
there is any reasonable way packagers could have known about this new
dependency unless they are involved with the Python upstream. All the
current changelog does is link to PEP 615, where that information is
present, but it has no mention of new dependencies.

Please let me know if I've overlooked something :P

[1] https://www.archlinux.org/packages/core/any/base/
[2] 
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/python-devel%40lists.fedoraproject.org/

Cheers,
Filipe Laíns


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[Python-Dev] Re: Distro packagers: PEP 615 and the tzdata dependency

[Miro Hrončok]

On 11/16/20 4:10 PM, Paul Ganssle wrote:

Maybe it would make sense to create a community mailing list for
packagers?

That sounds like a good idea to me.


I am following the Linux SIG mailing list. But it's mostly dead.

https://mail.python.org/archives/list/linux-...@python.org/

--
Miro Hrončok
--
Phone: +420777974800
IRC: mhroncok
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[Python-Dev] Re: Distro packagers: PEP 615 and the tzdata dependency

[Paul Ganssle]

On 11/16/20 9:57 AM, Filipe Laíns wrote:
> In Arch Linux, tzdata is a dependency of glibc, which is part of the
> base[1] package that should be present on every installation. So, there
> is no action necessary :)
> We could make it an explicit dependency, but that it not necessarily
> required, it is up to the maintainer, whom I have notified.

I opened a bug on the tracker including a patch:
https://bugs.archlinux.org/task/68642?project=1&string=python

I do think it makes sense to make it a direct dependency, since I
personally worry that transitive dependencies may be fragile (and even
if the transitive dependency is rock-solid, it doesn't hurt anything for
it to exist — plus it gives you metadata about what projects are using
what packages, for purposes of notifying or looking for issues). That
said, it's obviously up to y'all.

There's actually another thing that is probably of interest to distro
packagers, which is that zoneinfo includes a compile-time configuration
option:
https://docs.python.org/3/library/zoneinfo.html#zoneinfo-data-compile-time-config

By default we don't know where the zoneinfo will be deployed, so we use
a set of locations where it's commonly deployed. Since distro packagers
know exactly where it is deployed, they can use the `--with-tzpath`
configuration option to specify it at build time, to make the lookup
that much faster and more accurate.

> I would say the best approach to reach distro packages is to open a bug
> in their issue tracker, or to reach them via mailing list. Some of them
> have specific mailing lists for Python, Fedora has python-devel[2].

Yeah, I was mainly looking for a way to contact all of them at once,
since it doesn't scale very well for me to open bugs on the trackers of
every distributor. I can open bugs for my distro and distros that I care
about, but even that can be pretty duplicative.

> Maybe it would make sense to create a community mailing list for
> packagers?
That sounds like a good idea to me.
> I would also suggest to in the future maybe have a "For packagers"
> section, or similar, in the release notes. I don't think right now
> there is any reasonable way packagers could have known about this new
> dependency unless they are involved with the Python upstream. All the
> current changelog does is link to PEP 615, where that information is
> present, but it has no mention of new dependencies.
This also seems like a good idea to me (though I'm not entirely sure how
often packagers are impacted by changes to CPython — zoneinfo may have
been an unusual case).

Best,
Paul



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[Python-Dev] Re: Distro packagers: PEP 615 and the tzdata dependency

[Christian Heimes]

On 16/11/2020 15.32, Paul Ganssle wrote:
> Hi all,
> 
> One part of PEP 615 (IANA time zones) that I expected to be easily
> overlooked (a point about which I seem to have been right) is the
> recommendation that starting with Python 3.9, distros should add a
> dependency on the system time zone data to the Python package. Quoting
> the PEP:
> 
>> Python distributors are encouraged to ensure that time zone data is
>> installed alongside Python whenever possible (e.g. by declaring tzdata
>> as a dependency for the python package).
> 
> https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0615/#system-time-zone-information
> 
> I am not sure what is the best way to reach the largest number of distro
> packagers to suggest that they add a dependency on tzdata for Python
> 3.9+, so I figured I'd send a message here. If you know a distro
> packager who does not follow this list, or you use a distro that doesn't
> have a dependency on tzdata for Python 3.9, please forward this e-mail
> to them and/or open a bug on their issue tracker.
> 
> So far I know conda-forge got the dependency right from the first Python
> 3.9 release, Fedora has plans to fix this
> , and
> Christian Heimes has opened a bug on the Ubuntu launchpad
>  for
> this. I will figure out how best to notify Arch Linux and do that (since
> that's the distro I use).
> 
> I suspect this will be most important for distros that are heavily used
> in containers, since tzdata is a common enough dependency that it's
> likely to be satisfied accidentally in most full-featured user
> environments anyway.
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> Paul
> 
> P.S. If there's a mailing list or other community for Python distro
> packagers, please let me know, because I often find that we're making
> decisions that affect them that they don't hear about until way down the
> line. I'd love to have an easy way to keep them in the loop.

Thanks Paul,

would it make sense to add a packaging section to our documentation or
to write an informational PEP? There is already PEP 394, which defines
the "python" command on Unix-like systems. A new informational PEP could
1) assist packagers with best practices, 2) state how the CPython core
team envisions packaging of Python on Unix distributions.

After all there are more dependencies than "tzdata". Python has
dependencies on /etc/mime.types and system trust store for the ssl
module. Users also have been complaining about usability issues and bugs
caused by downstream patches and packaging decisions (like venv,
distutils, tkinter split into optional packages).

By the way Fedora isn't affected by lack of tzdata database. Fedora's
Python package has a transient dependency on tzdata. The package is
always shipped in Fedora's minimal container images, too. Miro's PR
makes the dependency explicit.

Christian
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