[Python-Dev] Re: Should PEP 8 be updated for Python 3 only?

[Christopher Barker]

Thanks all.

The PR is in process, and I believe it includes everything brought up here.

If you have any more thoughts, please post them there.

-CHB

On Thu, Aug 26, 2021 at 1:54 AM Petr Viktorin  wrote:

> On 26. 08. 21 9:54, Marc-Andre Lemburg wrote:
> > On 26.08.2021 06:07, Christopher Barker wrote:
> >> I'm working on a PR now. It seems there is little support for keeping
> the
> >> python2 content in the docs, so I'm re-writing it as though it was
> never there.
> >> If someone wants to add a note about Python 2, of course that can be
> added later.
> >>
> >> Note that "moving the Python 2 content to a section at the end" is not
> all that
> >> straightforward, as it is pretty mixed in with the text at this point.
> >>
> >> But now a question -- the current text reads:
> >>
> >> "Code in the core Python distribution should always use UTF-8"
> >>
> >> and then:
> >>
> >> "In the standard library, non-default encodings should be used only for
> >> test purposes or when a comment or docstring needs to mention an author
> >> name that contains non-ASCII characters ..."
> >>
> >> I *think* that's a remnant of the Py2 ASCII encoding days -- but I
> wanted to
> >> make sure, a bit later on, it says:
> >>
> >> "The following policy is prescribed for the
> >> standard library ... In addition, string literals and comments must
> also be in
> >> ASCII."
> >
> > For Python 2 code we mandated ASCII for the stdlib, with some exceptions
> > using the source code encoding for testing purposes or in case e.g.
> > Martin von Löwis or Marc-André Lemburg wanted to put his name into the
> code
> > without escaping part of it ;-)
> >
> > Note that Python 2 defaults to ASCII as source code encoding.
> >
> > With UTF-8 as standard source code encoding, this is no longer
> > necessary.
> >
> > So the second quote can be changed to "In the standard library,
> non-default
> > source code encodings should be used only for test purposes ...".
> >
> >> Is that still correct for string literals and comments? And what
> about docstrings?
> >>
> >> It seems to me that if we really are utf-8, then there is no need for
> those
> >> "textual" elements to be ASCII. e.g they can still contain non-ascii
> characters,
> >> and escaping those makes things less readable, not more.
> >>
> >> So I think that section should now read:
> >>
> >> """
> >> Source File Encoding
> >> 
> >>
> >> Code in the core Python distribution should always use UTF-8, and
> should not
> >> have an encoding declaration.
> >>
> >> In the standard library, non-UTF-8 encodings should be used only for
> >> test purposes.
> >
> > I think the above should be limited to Python code. In C or other
> > source files you may well still need a source code encoding.
> >
> >> The following policy is prescribed for the standard library (see PEP
> >> 3131): All identifiers in the Python standard library MUST use
> >> ASCII-only identifiers, and SHOULD use English words wherever feasible
> >> (in many cases, abbreviations and technical terms are used which aren't
> >> English). In comment and docstrings, authors whose names tht are not
> >> based on the Latin alphabet (latin-1, ISO/IEC 8859-1 character set)
> >> MUST provide a transliteration of their names in this character set.
> >>
> >> Open source projects with a global audience are encouraged to adopt a
> >> similar policy.
> >> """
> >>
> >> But maybe we do want to keep comments, docstrings and literals as ASCII
> with
> >> escapes?
> >
> > No need for the stdlib, since UTF-8 is widely accepted by now
> > and why should people with non-ASCII names not be able to write
> > their true name ?
> >
> > You may have noted that I rarely do... the reason is that in the
> > past, the accent on the "e" caused me too many problems. Perhaps
> > one of these days, I'll go back to adding it again :-)
>
> I would drop the weirdly specific "(latin-1, ISO/IEC 8859-1 character
> set)" note, and only keep "based on the Latin alphabet".
> The Ł in Łukasz's name is not in latin-1, and I don't think it needs
> different treatment than German or French names. (As opposed to a
> Russian or Chinese name, where an an average English speaker isn't able
> to type an approximation of the name on their keyboard.)
>
> - Peťa Viktorin
>
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-- 
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Python Language Consulting
  - Teaching
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  - Desktop GUI and Web Development
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[Python-Dev] Re: Should PEP 8 be updated for Python 3 only?

[Stephen J. Turnbull]

Marc-Andre Lemburg writes:
 > On 26.08.2021 06:07, Christopher Barker wrote:

 > > But now a question -- the current text reads:
 > > 
 > > "Code in the core Python distribution should always use UTF-8"

 > > "The following policy is prescribed for the standard library
 > > ... In addition, string literals and comments must also be in
 > > ASCII."

Alex Martelli had a long, well-reasoned post about why Python's
"official" language (specifically, identifiers and comments) should be
English despite the strong preference for inclusion of our community.
As long as that remains true, I think we should stick to ASCII as a
lowest common denominator, with an exception for proper names and
testing.

 > With UTF-8 as standard source code encoding, this is no longer
 > necessary.
 > 
 > So the second quote can be changed to "In the standard library, non-default
 > source code encodings should be used only for test purposes ...".

+1

 > I think the above should be limited to Python code. In C or other
 > source files you may well still need a source code encoding.

True, but PEP 8 only does apply to Python.  PEP 7 is the style guide
for C.

 > No need for the stdlib, since UTF-8 is widely accepted by now
 > and why should people with non-ASCII names not be able to write
 > their true name ?

+1

While I proposed above that the stated policy should be "ASCII except
for proper names", I also think "although practicality beats purity".
I think such exceptions will be rare enough that "although
practicality" can be left implicit.

Steve
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[Python-Dev] Re: Should PEP 8 be updated for Python 3 only?

[Stephen J. Turnbull]

Christopher Barker writes:

 > PR here:

Thanks for your prompt efforts!  The notes toward a "near future"
agenda are above and beyond.

 > Interesting some of the cruft in there e.g.  still referring to "new style
 > classes" :-)

I think that should also come out "now", but that's a +1 to the idea,
not a suggestion for you to do it.  Maybe I will if nobody gets to it
before the weekend. :-)

Steve

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[Python-Dev] Re: Should PEP 8 be updated for Python 3 only?

[Petr Viktorin]

On 26. 08. 21 9:54, Marc-Andre Lemburg wrote:

On 26.08.2021 06:07, Christopher Barker wrote:

I'm working on a PR now. It seems there is little support for keeping the
python2 content in the docs, so I'm re-writing it as though it was never there.
If someone wants to add a note about Python 2, of course that can be added 
later.

Note that "moving the Python 2 content to a section at the end" is not all that
straightforward, as it is pretty mixed in with the text at this point.

But now a question -- the current text reads:

"Code in the core Python distribution should always use UTF-8"

and then:

"In the standard library, non-default encodings should be used only for
test purposes or when a comment or docstring needs to mention an author
name that contains non-ASCII characters ..."

I *think* that's a remnant of the Py2 ASCII encoding days -- but I wanted to
make sure, a bit later on, it says:

"The following policy is prescribed for the
standard library ... In addition, string literals and comments must also be in
ASCII."


For Python 2 code we mandated ASCII for the stdlib, with some exceptions
using the source code encoding for testing purposes or in case e.g.
Martin von Löwis or Marc-André Lemburg wanted to put his name into the code
without escaping part of it ;-)

Note that Python 2 defaults to ASCII as source code encoding.

With UTF-8 as standard source code encoding, this is no longer
necessary.

So the second quote can be changed to "In the standard library, non-default
source code encodings should be used only for test purposes ...".


Is that still correct for string literals and comments? And what about 
docstrings?

It seems to me that if we really are utf-8, then there is no need for those
"textual" elements to be ASCII. e.g they can still contain non-ascii characters,
and escaping those makes things less readable, not more.

So I think that section should now read:

"""
Source File Encoding


Code in the core Python distribution should always use UTF-8, and should not
have an encoding declaration.

In the standard library, non-UTF-8 encodings should be used only for
test purposes.


I think the above should be limited to Python code. In C or other
source files you may well still need a source code encoding.


The following policy is prescribed for the standard library (see PEP
3131): All identifiers in the Python standard library MUST use
ASCII-only identifiers, and SHOULD use English words wherever feasible
(in many cases, abbreviations and technical terms are used which aren't
English). In comment and docstrings, authors whose names tht are not
based on the Latin alphabet (latin-1, ISO/IEC 8859-1 character set)
MUST provide a transliteration of their names in this character set.

Open source projects with a global audience are encouraged to adopt a
similar policy.
"""

But maybe we do want to keep comments, docstrings and literals as ASCII with
escapes?


No need for the stdlib, since UTF-8 is widely accepted by now
and why should people with non-ASCII names not be able to write
their true name ?

You may have noted that I rarely do... the reason is that in the
past, the accent on the "e" caused me too many problems. Perhaps
one of these days, I'll go back to adding it again :-)


I would drop the weirdly specific "(latin-1, ISO/IEC 8859-1 character 
set)" note, and only keep "based on the Latin alphabet".
The Ł in Łukasz's name is not in latin-1, and I don't think it needs 
different treatment than German or French names. (As opposed to a 
Russian or Chinese name, where an an average English speaker isn't able 
to type an approximation of the name on their keyboard.)


- Peťa Viktorin

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[Python-Dev] Re: Should PEP 8 be updated for Python 3 only?

[Marc-Andre Lemburg]

On 26.08.2021 06:07, Christopher Barker wrote:
> I'm working on a PR now. It seems there is little support for keeping the
> python2 content in the docs, so I'm re-writing it as though it was never 
> there.
> If someone wants to add a note about Python 2, of course that can be added 
> later.
> 
> Note that "moving the Python 2 content to a section at the end" is not all 
> that
> straightforward, as it is pretty mixed in with the text at this point.
> 
> But now a question -- the current text reads:
> 
> "Code in the core Python distribution should always use UTF-8"
> 
> and then:
> 
> "In the standard library, non-default encodings should be used only for
> test purposes or when a comment or docstring needs to mention an author
> name that contains non-ASCII characters ..."
> 
> I *think* that's a remnant of the Py2 ASCII encoding days -- but I wanted to
> make sure, a bit later on, it says:
> 
> "The following policy is prescribed for the
> standard library ... In addition, string literals and comments must also be in
> ASCII."

For Python 2 code we mandated ASCII for the stdlib, with some exceptions
using the source code encoding for testing purposes or in case e.g.
Martin von Löwis or Marc-André Lemburg wanted to put his name into the code
without escaping part of it ;-)

Note that Python 2 defaults to ASCII as source code encoding.

With UTF-8 as standard source code encoding, this is no longer
necessary.

So the second quote can be changed to "In the standard library, non-default
source code encodings should be used only for test purposes ...".

> Is that still correct for string literals and comments? And what about 
> docstrings?
> 
> It seems to me that if we really are utf-8, then there is no need for those
> "textual" elements to be ASCII. e.g they can still contain non-ascii 
> characters,
> and escaping those makes things less readable, not more. 
> 
> So I think that section should now read:
> 
> """
> Source File Encoding
> 
> 
> Code in the core Python distribution should always use UTF-8, and should not
> have an encoding declaration.
> 
> In the standard library, non-UTF-8 encodings should be used only for
> test purposes.

I think the above should be limited to Python code. In C or other
source files you may well still need a source code encoding.

> The following policy is prescribed for the standard library (see PEP
> 3131): All identifiers in the Python standard library MUST use
> ASCII-only identifiers, and SHOULD use English words wherever feasible
> (in many cases, abbreviations and technical terms are used which aren't
> English). In comment and docstrings, authors whose names tht are not
> based on the Latin alphabet (latin-1, ISO/IEC 8859-1 character set)
> MUST provide a transliteration of their names in this character set.
> 
> Open source projects with a global audience are encouraged to adopt a
> similar policy.
> """
> 
> But maybe we do want to keep comments, docstrings and literals as ASCII with
> escapes?

No need for the stdlib, since UTF-8 is widely accepted by now
and why should people with non-ASCII names not be able to write
their true name ?

You may have noted that I rarely do... the reason is that in the
past, the accent on the "e" caused me too many problems. Perhaps
one of these days, I'll go back to adding it again :-)

-- 
Marc-Andre Lemburg
eGenix.com

Professional Python Services directly from the Experts (#1, Aug 26 2021)
>>> Python Projects, Coaching and Support ...https://www.egenix.com/
>>> Python Product Development ...https://consulting.egenix.com/


::: We implement business ideas - efficiently in both time and costs :::

   eGenix.com Software, Skills and Services GmbH  Pastor-Loeh-Str.48
D-40764 Langenfeld, Germany. CEO Dipl.-Math. Marc-Andre Lemburg
   Registered at Amtsgericht Duesseldorf: HRB 46611
   https://www.egenix.com/company/contact/
 https://www.malemburg.com/

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[Python-Dev] Re: Should PEP 8 be updated for Python 3 only?

[Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer]

Greetings,

What about stating the version on each PEP8 file? Like the docs always
refer to a version of Python
Better, each version of Python can have it's PEP8 guide as language
features added
require style guidelines.

Kind Regards,

Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer
about  | blog

github 
Mauritius
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[Python-Dev] Re: Should PEP 8 be updated for Python 3 only?

[Christopher Barker]

OK,

PR here:

https://github.com/python/peps/pull/2059

Interesting some of the cruft in there e.g.  still referring to "new style
classes" :-)

I'll leave it to the PEP editors to decide about a note about Python 2.

-CHB


On Wed, Aug 25, 2021 at 10:28 PM Stephen J. Turnbull <
stephenjturnb...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Terry Reedy writes:
>
>  > We could add (perhaps at the end of the first paragraph) something like
>  > "(Since the 2.x stdlib is frozen, all 2.x-specific guidelines were
>  > removed in Sept 2021.)"  Anyone interested could then check git log for
>  > the last commit before then.
>
> How about including the most recent 'main' SHA1 (where a 6-character
> prefix should do, and "the" refers to Chris's clone, we don't need to
> be hugely fussy about the exact previous commit when it eventually
> gets merged), or even tag it?
>
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>


-- 
Christopher Barker, PhD (Chris)

Python Language Consulting
  - Teaching
  - Scientific Software Development
  - Desktop GUI and Web Development
  - wxPython, numpy, scipy, Cython
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[Python-Dev] Re: Should PEP 8 be updated for Python 3 only?

[Stephen J. Turnbull]

Terry Reedy writes:

 > We could add (perhaps at the end of the first paragraph) something like 
 > "(Since the 2.x stdlib is frozen, all 2.x-specific guidelines were 
 > removed in Sept 2021.)"  Anyone interested could then check git log for 
 > the last commit before then.

How about including the most recent 'main' SHA1 (where a 6-character
prefix should do, and "the" refers to Chris's clone, we don't need to
be hugely fussy about the exact previous commit when it eventually
gets merged), or even tag it?

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[Python-Dev] Re: Should PEP 8 be updated for Python 3 only?

[Christopher Barker]

I'm working on a PR now. It seems there is little support for keeping the
python2 content in the docs, so I'm re-writing it as though it was never
there. If someone wants to add a note about Python 2, of course that can be
added later.

Note that "moving the Python 2 content to a section at the end" is not all
that straightforward, as it is pretty mixed in with the text at this point.

But now a question -- the current text reads:

"Code in the core Python distribution should always use UTF-8"

and then:

"In the standard library, non-default encodings should be used only for
test purposes or when a comment or docstring needs to mention an author
name that contains non-ASCII characters ..."

I *think* that's a remnant of the Py2 ASCII encoding days -- but I wanted
to make sure, a bit later on, it says:

"The following policy is prescribed for the
standard library ... In addition, string literals and comments must also be
in ASCII."

Is that still correct for string literals and comments? And what
about docstrings?

It seems to me that if we really are utf-8, then there is no need for those
"textual" elements to be ASCII. e.g they can still contain non-ascii
characters, and escaping those makes things less readable, not more.

So I think that section should now read:

"""
Source File Encoding


Code in the core Python distribution should always use UTF-8, and should
not have an encoding declaration.

In the standard library, non-UTF-8 encodings should be used only for
test purposes.

The following policy is prescribed for the standard library (see PEP
3131): All identifiers in the Python standard library MUST use
ASCII-only identifiers, and SHOULD use English words wherever feasible
(in many cases, abbreviations and technical terms are used which aren't
English). In comment and docstrings, authors whose names tht are not
based on the Latin alphabet (latin-1, ISO/IEC 8859-1 character set)
MUST provide a transliteration of their names in this character set.

Open source projects with a global audience are encouraged to adopt a
similar policy.
"""

But maybe we do want to keep comments, docstrings and literals as ASCII
with escapes?

-- 
Christopher Barker, PhD (Chris)

Python Language Consulting
  - Teaching
  - Scientific Software Development
  - Desktop GUI and Web Development
  - wxPython, numpy, scipy, Cython
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[Python-Dev] Re: Should PEP 8 be updated for Python 3 only?

[Terry Reedy]

On 8/25/2021 6:48 PM, Steve Holden wrote:
I suspect it's the same motivation that makes us comment out a block of 
code rather than deleting it, even though we know the VCS will let us 
retirive it whenever we want. If I'm wrong it won't be fatal. Or 
surprising ;-)


Kind regards,
Steve


On Wed, Aug 25, 2021 at 8:53 PM Eric V. Smith > wrote:


I think we’re better off removing them. 2.7 is completely
unsupported by us.

Why do you think they should still be kept?

--
Eric

 > On Aug 25, 2021, at 1:32 PM, Mike Miller mailto:python-...@mgmiller.net>> wrote:
 >
 > 
 > How about moving Python 2 notes into a section at the bottom?


I initially thought of this also, for +- the reason Steve gives.  But 
PEP 8 still specifically applies to the stdlib and we only edit 3.6+. 
So I agree with Eric.


We could add (perhaps at the end of the first paragraph) something like 
"(Since the 2.x stdlib is frozen, all 2.x-specific guidelines were 
removed in Sept 2021.)"  Anyone interested could then check git log for 
the last commit before then.  And everyone would know that what follows 
is for 3.x.


--
Terry Jan Reedy


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[Python-Dev] Re: Should PEP 8 be updated for Python 3 only?

[Steve Holden]

I suspect it's the same motivation that makes us comment out a block of
code rather than deleting it, even though we know the VCS will let us
retirive it whenever we want. If I'm wrong it won't be fatal. Or surprising
;-)

Kind regards,
Steve


On Wed, Aug 25, 2021 at 8:53 PM Eric V. Smith  wrote:

> I think we’re better off removing them. 2.7 is completely unsupported by
> us.
>
> Why do you think they should still be kept?
>
> --
> Eric
>
> > On Aug 25, 2021, at 1:32 PM, Mike Miller 
> wrote:
> >
> > 
> > How about moving Python 2 notes into a section at the bottom?
> >
> >
> > -Mike
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[Python-Dev] Re: Should PEP 8 be updated for Python 3 only?

[Eric V. Smith]

I think we’re better off removing them. 2.7 is completely unsupported by us. 

Why do you think they should still be kept?

--
Eric

> On Aug 25, 2021, at 1:32 PM, Mike Miller  wrote:
> 
> 
> How about moving Python 2 notes into a section at the bottom?
> 
> 
> -Mike
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[Python-Dev] Re: Should PEP 8 be updated for Python 3 only?

[Brett Cannon]

On Wed, Aug 25, 2021 at 10:32 AM Mike Miller 
wrote:

>
> How about moving Python 2 notes into a section at the bottom?
>

I don't think that's useful. PEP 8 is still meant for the stdlib which is
obviously not using Python 2, so it just becomes baggage. Plus if people
want to refer to the old version they have the version history. And for
anyone who wants to keep the old version they can copy or fork it.


>
>
> -Mike
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[Python-Dev] Re: Should PEP 8 be updated for Python 3 only?

[Mike Miller]

How about moving Python 2 notes into a section at the bottom?


-Mike
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[Python-Dev] Re: Should PEP 8 be updated for Python 3 only?

[Christopher Barker]

On Tue, Aug 24, 2021 at 9:53 PM Guido van Rossum  wrote:

> Since PEP 8 is a "living document" that is occasionally updated, I think
> that's reasonable. Don't go overboard. I found 10 occurrences of the string
> "python 2" in the text. You might also want to strike the paragraph that
> links to reference [6].
>

will do -- hopefully I'll find some time for this tomorrow.

-CHB




> On Tue, Aug 24, 2021 at 9:42 PM Christopher Barker 
> wrote:
>
>> I just noticed that PEP 8 has quite a few references to Python 2. Perhaps
>> it's time to remove those.
>>
>> There are more and more folks that have never learned or used Python 2 --
>> having those notes in PEP 8 is just confusing.
>>
>> And for folks that are still maintaining Py 2 code --  it's probably too
>> late for PEP 8 for those code bases anyway.
>>
>> If I make a PR, will it be considered?
>>
>> -CHB
>>
>>
>> --
>> Christopher Barker, PhD (Chris)
>>
>> Python Language Consulting
>>   - Teaching
>>   - Scientific Software Development
>>   - Desktop GUI and Web Development
>>   - wxPython, numpy, scipy, Cython
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>
>
> --
> --Guido van Rossum (python.org/~guido)
> *Pronouns: he/him **(why is my pronoun here?)*
> 
>


-- 
Christopher Barker, PhD (Chris)

Python Language Consulting
  - Teaching
  - Scientific Software Development
  - Desktop GUI and Web Development
  - wxPython, numpy, scipy, Cython
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[Python-Dev] Re: Should PEP 8 be updated for Python 3 only?

[Guido van Rossum]

Since PEP 8 is a "living document" that is occasionally updated, I think
that's reasonable. Don't go overboard. I found 10 occurrences of the string
"python 2" in the text. You might also want to strike the paragraph that
links to reference [6].

On Tue, Aug 24, 2021 at 9:42 PM Christopher Barker 
wrote:

> I just noticed that PEP 8 has quite a few references to Python 2. Perhaps
> it's time to remove those.
>
> There are more and more folks that have never learned or used Python 2 --
> having those notes in PEP 8 is just confusing.
>
> And for folks that are still maintaining Py 2 code --  it's probably too
> late for PEP 8 for those code bases anyway.
>
> If I make a PR, will it be considered?
>
> -CHB
>
>
> --
> Christopher Barker, PhD (Chris)
>
> Python Language Consulting
>   - Teaching
>   - Scientific Software Development
>   - Desktop GUI and Web Development
>   - wxPython, numpy, scipy, Cython
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>


-- 
--Guido van Rossum (python.org/~guido)
*Pronouns: he/him **(why is my pronoun here?)*

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