Re: [Python-Dev] Deprecate PEP 370 Per user site-packages directory?

[Nick Coghlan]

On 14 January 2018 at 03:06, Christian Heimes  wrote:
> Hi,
>
> PEP 370 [1] was my first PEP that got accepted. I created it exactly one
> decade and two days ago for Python 2.6 and 3.0. Back then we didn't have
> virtual environment support in Python. Ian Bicking had just started to
> create the virtualenv project a couple of months earlier.
>
> Fast forward 10 years...
>
> Nowadays Python has venv in the standard library. The user-specific
> site-packages directory is no longer that useful. I would even say it's
> causing more trouble than it's worth. For example it's common for system
> script to use "#!/usr/bin/python3" shebang without -s or -I option.
>
> I propose to deprecate the feature and remove it in Python 4.0.

Given that we're working towards making user site-packages the default
install location in pip, removing that feature at the interpreter
level would be rather counterproductive :)

Virtual environments are a useful tool if you're a professional
developer, but for a lot of folks just doing ad hoc personal
scripting, they're more complexity than is needed, and the simple "my
packages" vs "the system's package" split is a better option. (It's
also rather useful for bootstrapping tools like "pipsi" - "pip install
--user pipsi", then "pipsi install" the other commands you want access
to).

Cheers,
Nick.

-- 
Nick Coghlan   |   ncogh...@gmail.com   |   Brisbane, Australia
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Re: [Python-Dev] Deprecate PEP 370 Per user site-packages directory?

[Christian Heimes]

On 2018-01-14 04:16, Barry Warsaw wrote:
> On Jan 13, 2018, at 12:06, Christian Heimes  wrote:
> 
>> These days a lot of packages are using setuptools' entry points to
>> create console scripts. Entry point have no option to create a console
>> script with -s or -I flag. On my system, only 40 out of 360 scripts in
>> /usr/bin have -s or -I.
> 
> -I should be the default for system scripts; it’s not on Debian/Ubuntu though 
> unfortunately.

Same for most Fedora scripts. :/

Christian

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Re: [Python-Dev] Deprecate PEP 370 Per user site-packages directory?

[Toshio Kuratomi]

On Jan 13, 2018 9:08 AM, "Christian Heimes"  wrote:

Hi,

PEP 370 [1] was my first PEP that got accepted. I created it exactly one
decade and two days ago for Python 2.6 and 3.0.


I didn't know I had you to thank for this!  Thanks Christian!  This is one
of the best features of the python software packaging ecosystem!  I almost
exclusively install into user site packages these days.  It lets me pull in
the latest version of software when I want it for everyday use and revert
to what my system shipped with if the updates break something.  It's let me
I install libraries ported to python3 before my distro got stopping to
packaging the updates.  It's let me perform an install when I want to test
my packages as my users might be using it without touching the system
dirs.  It's been a godsend!


Fast forward 10 years...

Nowadays Python has venv in the standard library. The user-specific
site-packages directory is no longer that useful. I would even say it's
causing more trouble than it's worth. For example it's common for system
script to use "#!/usr/bin/python3" shebang without -s or -I option.


With great power comes great responsibility...

Sure, installing something into user site packages can break system
scripts.  But it can also fix them.  I can recall breaking system scripts
twice by installing something into user site packages (both times, the
tracebacks rapidly lead me to the reason that the scripts were failing).
As a counter point to that I can recall *fixing* problems in system scripts
by installing newer libraries into site packages twice in the last two
months.  (I've also fixed system software by installing into user and then
modifying that version but I do that less frequently... Perhaps only a
couple times a year...)

Removing the user site packages also doesn't prevent people from making
local changes that break system scripts (removing the pre-configuration of
user site packages does not stop honoring usage of PYTHONPATH); it only
makes people work a little harder to place their overridden packages into a
location that python will find and leads to nonstandard locations for these
overrides. This will make it harder for people to troubleshoot the problems
other people may be having.  Instead of asking "do you have any libraries
in .local in your tracebacks?"  as an easy first troubleshooting step.
Without the user site packages standard we'll be back to trying to
determine which directories are official for the user's install and then
finding any local directories that their site may have defined for
overrides

I propose to deprecate the feature and remove it in Python 4.0.


Although I don't like the idea of system scripts adding -s and -l because
it prevents me from fixing them for my own use by installing just a newer
or modified library into user site packages (similar to how c programs can
use overridden libraries via ld_library_path), it seems that if you want to
prevent users from choosing to use their own libraries with system scripts,
the right thing to do is to get changes to allow adding those to setuptools
and distutils.  Those flags will do a much more thorough job of preventing
this usage than removing user site packages can.

-Toshio
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Re: [Python-Dev] Deprecate PEP 370 Per user site-packages directory?

[Barry Warsaw]

On Jan 13, 2018, at 12:06, Christian Heimes  wrote:

> These days a lot of packages are using setuptools' entry points to
> create console scripts. Entry point have no option to create a console
> script with -s or -I flag. On my system, only 40 out of 360 scripts in
> /usr/bin have -s or -I.

-I should be the default for system scripts; it’s not on Debian/Ubuntu though 
unfortunately.

-Barry



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Re: [Python-Dev] Deprecate PEP 370 Per user site-packages directory?

[Barry Warsaw]

On Jan 13, 2018, at 11:12, Miro Hrončok  wrote:
> 
> We would very much like to see --user the default rather than having it 
> removed.

Very much +1.  In Debian/Ubuntu we’ve carried patches to do exactly that for 
years, and I think our users have been very happy about it.

-Barry



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Re: [Python-Dev] Deprecate PEP 370 Per user site-packages directory?

[Brett Cannon]

On Sat, Jan 13, 2018, 17:27 Alex Walters,  wrote:

> I would suggest throwing this to -ideas, rather than just keeping it in
> -dev
> as there is a much wider community of users and usecases in -ideas.
>
> ... and -ideas will shoot it down because user installs are too useful.  It
> is also my understanding that it is the desire of PyPA to eventually have
> pip default to --user when run outside of a virtualenv (to mitigate people
> running sudo pip).  Eliminating user installs would change the situation
> from one where, with pip install --user, one can recoverably break their
> system to one, with sudo pip install, one can un-recoverably break their
> system.
>

Which suggests that doing away with user installs would mean making it so
interpreter installs don't break your system, which would require Linux and
distros and macOS to not publicly expose their system Python installs so
people can't accidentally break them. I think if that were to occur then
you could consider dropping user installs as people would be installing
into their own interpreter. But until then I think the attraction/lack of
knowledge for people will be high enough that user installs will be the
most pragmatic solution we have.

-Brett


> > -Original Message-
> > From: Python-Dev [mailto:python-dev-bounces+tritium-
> > list=sdamon@python.org] On Behalf Of Christian Heimes
> > Sent: Saturday, January 13, 2018 12:06 PM
> > To: python-dev@python.org
> > Subject: [Python-Dev] Deprecate PEP 370 Per user site-packages directory?
> >
> > Hi,
> >
> > PEP 370 [1] was my first PEP that got accepted. I created it exactly one
> > decade and two days ago for Python 2.6 and 3.0. Back then we didn't have
> > virtual environment support in Python. Ian Bicking had just started to
> > create the virtualenv project a couple of months earlier.
> >
> > Fast forward 10 years...
> >
> > Nowadays Python has venv in the standard library. The user-specific
> > site-packages directory is no longer that useful. I would even say it's
> > causing more trouble than it's worth. For example it's common for system
> > script to use "#!/usr/bin/python3" shebang without -s or -I option.
> >
> > I propose to deprecate the feature and remove it in Python 4.0.
> >
> > Regards,
> > Christian
> >
> > [1] https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0370/
> >
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Re: [Python-Dev] Deprecate PEP 370 Per user site-packages directory?

[Alex Walters]

I would suggest throwing this to -ideas, rather than just keeping it in -dev
as there is a much wider community of users and usecases in -ideas.

... and -ideas will shoot it down because user installs are too useful.  It
is also my understanding that it is the desire of PyPA to eventually have
pip default to --user when run outside of a virtualenv (to mitigate people
running sudo pip).  Eliminating user installs would change the situation
from one where, with pip install --user, one can recoverably break their
system to one, with sudo pip install, one can un-recoverably break their
system.

> -Original Message-
> From: Python-Dev [mailto:python-dev-bounces+tritium-
> list=sdamon@python.org] On Behalf Of Christian Heimes
> Sent: Saturday, January 13, 2018 12:06 PM
> To: python-dev@python.org
> Subject: [Python-Dev] Deprecate PEP 370 Per user site-packages directory?
> 
> Hi,
> 
> PEP 370 [1] was my first PEP that got accepted. I created it exactly one
> decade and two days ago for Python 2.6 and 3.0. Back then we didn't have
> virtual environment support in Python. Ian Bicking had just started to
> create the virtualenv project a couple of months earlier.
> 
> Fast forward 10 years...
> 
> Nowadays Python has venv in the standard library. The user-specific
> site-packages directory is no longer that useful. I would even say it's
> causing more trouble than it's worth. For example it's common for system
> script to use "#!/usr/bin/python3" shebang without -s or -I option.
> 
> I propose to deprecate the feature and remove it in Python 4.0.
> 
> Regards,
> Christian
> 
> [1] https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0370/
> 
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Re: [Python-Dev] Deprecate PEP 370 Per user site-packages directory?

[Steven D'Aprano]

On Sat, Jan 13, 2018 at 09:00:07PM +0100, Christian Heimes wrote:

> You'd be surprised how many tools and programs are using Python these
> days. You can easily break important user programs by installing a
> package with --user.

Or by writing a Python script and innocently giving it the same name as 
a system module.

On the tutor@ and python-list@ mailing lists, it is very frequent for 
users to accidently break Python by accidently shadowing an installed 
module, e.g. installing xlrd and then calling their own script 
"xlrd.py". But I've never come across somebody breaking anything by 
installing a package with --user.

I presume it must happen, but I would be surprised if it happens often 
enough to justify removing what is otherwise a useful piece of 
functionality.



-- 
Steve
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Re: [Python-Dev] Deprecate PEP 370 Per user site-packages directory?

[Bruno Maximilian Voß]

Hi all,

I'm a user who decided to read the mailing list and respond to argue
against and maybe stop things I don't think will help users as much as you
think.I think deprecating user site-packages is such a change.

That venvs exist doesn't mean most or even many people use them, even
though I'm sure you and everyone you know does. I couldn't find usage
statistics on short notice, do you have any?

As far as I understand it site-packages is the default location for all
packages that are installed and as long as the packages that are installed
aren't causing a conflict, there is no problem. I've never had a problem in
six years of using python.

So I'd really like a more detailed break down of the troubles the existence
of site packages causes and of the up- and downsides removing it would
bring, before anything is decided.

Another point I'd like to raise is that even though it's a good idea to
isolate programs with venvs for stability, development and sometimes maybe
security, idk, the idea of having a shared pool of packages has benefits
too, namely code reuse and their availability, for example when you're
offline.

Also I don't really know why you would think it's necessary to force every
user into venvs. The applications and users that do need their environments
are free to use one after all.

Regards,

Max
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Re: [Python-Dev] Deprecate PEP 370 Per user site-packages directory?

[Steve Dower]

I’m generally +1, though I don’t see an easy migration path. Moving to a 
node.js project model might be feasible, but I suspect our real solution will 
end up having to be ensuring use of -s where it’s needed.

Top-posted from my Windows phone

From: Christian Heimes
Sent: Sunday, January 14, 2018 4:09
To: python-dev@python.org
Subject: [Python-Dev] Deprecate PEP 370 Per user site-packages directory?

Hi,

PEP 370 [1] was my first PEP that got accepted. I created it exactly one
decade and two days ago for Python 2.6 and 3.0. Back then we didn't have
virtual environment support in Python. Ian Bicking had just started to
create the virtualenv project a couple of months earlier.

Fast forward 10 years...

Nowadays Python has venv in the standard library. The user-specific
site-packages directory is no longer that useful. I would even say it's
causing more trouble than it's worth. For example it's common for system
script to use "#!/usr/bin/python3" shebang without -s or -I option.

I propose to deprecate the feature and remove it in Python 4.0.

Regards,
Christian

[1] https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0370/

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Re: [Python-Dev] Deprecate PEP 370 Per user site-packages directory?

[Antoine Pitrou]

On Sat, 13 Jan 2018 21:06:19 +0100
Christian Heimes  wrote:
> >>
> >> I see two option:
> >>
> >> 1) "pip install --user" is no longer supported. You have to learn how to
> >> use virtual envs. It's really easy: "python3 -m venv path; path/bin/pip
> >> install package".
> >> 2) "pip install --user" automatically creates or uses a custom virtual
> >> (~/.pip/virtualenv-$VERSION/) and links entry points to ~/.local/bin.  
> > 
> > Option 2 doesn't work, since the installed package then isn't known to
> > the system Python.  
> 
> I see that as a benefit. User installed packages will no longer be able
> to break system-wide programs.

I don't know if it's better or worse.  I'm just saying it's not a
migration path from user site-packages since it doesn't have the same
semantics.

> These days a lot of packages are using setuptools' entry points to
> create console scripts. Entry point have no option to create a console
> script with -s or -I flag. 

Perhaps that should be fixed.

Regards

Antoine.


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Re: [Python-Dev] Deprecate PEP 370 Per user site-packages directory?

[Oleg Broytman]

On Sat, Jan 13, 2018 at 09:00:07PM +0100, Christian Heimes 
 wrote:
> On 2018-01-13 20:08, Oleg Broytman wrote:
> > Hi!
> > 
> > On Sat, Jan 13, 2018 at 06:06:16PM +0100, Christian Heimes 
> >  wrote:
> >> Hi,
> >>
> >> PEP 370 [1] was my first PEP that got accepted. I created it exactly one
> >> decade and two days ago for Python 2.6 and 3.0. Back then we didn't have
> >> virtual environment support in Python. Ian Bicking had just started to
> >> create the virtualenv project a couple of months earlier.
> >>
> >> Fast forward 10 years...
> >>
> >> Nowadays Python has venv in the standard library. The user-specific
> >> site-packages directory is no longer that useful.
> > 
> >Can I disagree?
> > 
> >> I would even say it's
> >> causing more trouble than it's worth. For example it's common for system
> >> script to use "#!/usr/bin/python3" shebang without -s or -I option.
> > 
> >System scripts are run under user root which seldom has user-specific
> > site-packages so why worry?
> 
> You'd be surprised how many tools and programs are using Python these
> days.

   Certainly not. I wrote or helped to write a lot of them myself. :-)

> You can easily break important user programs by installing a
> package with --user.

   Under root? Probably. Then don't do that -- or do not allow system
Python to import user-specific site-packages (i.e., distinguish system
Python from normal Python running under user root).
   But for a non-root user user-specific site-packages is quite a
convenient thing. Please don't remove it.

> Christian

Oleg.
-- 
 Oleg Broytmanhttp://phdru.name/p...@phdru.name
   Programmers don't die, they just GOSUB without RETURN.
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Re: [Python-Dev] Deprecate PEP 370 Per user site-packages directory?

[Christian Heimes]

On 2018-01-13 19:57, Antoine Pitrou wrote:
> On Sat, 13 Jan 2018 19:18:41 +0100
> Christian Heimes  wrote:
>> On 2018-01-13 19:04, Random832 wrote:
>>> On Sat, Jan 13, 2018, at 12:06, Christian Heimes wrote:  
 Hi,

 PEP 370 [1] was my first PEP that got accepted. I created it exactly one
 decade and two days ago for Python 2.6 and 3.0. Back then we didn't have
 virtual environment support in Python. Ian Bicking had just started to
 create the virtualenv project a couple of months earlier.

 Fast forward 10 years...

 Nowadays Python has venv in the standard library. The user-specific
 site-packages directory is no longer that useful. I would even say it's
 causing more trouble than it's worth. For example it's common for system
 script to use "#!/usr/bin/python3" shebang without -s or -I option.

 I propose to deprecate the feature and remove it in Python 4.0.  
>>>
>>> Where would pip install --user put packages, and how would one run scripts 
>>> that require those packages? Right now these things Just Work; I've never 
>>> had to learn how to use virtual environments.  
>>
>> I see two option:
>>
>> 1) "pip install --user" is no longer supported. You have to learn how to
>> use virtual envs. It's really easy: "python3 -m venv path; path/bin/pip
>> install package".
>> 2) "pip install --user" automatically creates or uses a custom virtual
>> (~/.pip/virtualenv-$VERSION/) and links entry points to ~/.local/bin.
> 
> Option 2 doesn't work, since the installed package then isn't known to
> the system Python.

I see that as a benefit. User installed packages will no longer be able
to break system-wide programs.

These days a lot of packages are using setuptools' entry points to
create console scripts. Entry point have no option to create a console
script with -s or -I flag. On my system, only 40 out of 360 scripts in
/usr/bin have -s or -I.

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Re: [Python-Dev] Deprecate PEP 370 Per user site-packages directory?

[Brett Cannon]

On Sat, Jan 13, 2018, 11:13 Miro Hrončok,  wrote:

> On 13.1.2018 18:06, Christian Heimes wrote:
> > Nowadays Python has venv in the standard library. The user-specific
> > site-packages directory is no longer that useful. I would even say it's
> > causing more trouble than it's worth. For example it's common for system
> > script to use "#!/usr/bin/python3" shebang without -s or -I option.
>
> While I consider venvs easy and cool, this just moves the barrier for
> the users a little bit higher. We (Fedora Python SIG) are fighting users
> that run `sudo pip install` all the time (because the Interwebz are full
> of such instructions). The users might be willing to listen to "please,
> don't use pip with sudo, use --user instead". However, if you tell them
> "learn how to use a venv", they'll just stick with sudo.
>
>  > I propose to deprecate the feature and remove it in Python 4.0.
>
> We would very much like to see --user the default rather than having it
> removed.
>


I concur with Miro. On VS Code we rely on people installing the e.g. linter
of their choosing. We have been moving people away from sudo installs to
user installs to minimize polluting the system Python (and we are doing
what we can to promote venvs by using them automatically when present, but
we can only do so much).

Basically the only way I see it being reasonable to drop user installs is
if we move entirely to venvs for installs and I think that's probably too
radical to work.

-Brett



>
> --
> Miro Hrončok
> --
> Phone: +420777974800
> IRC: mhroncok
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Re: [Python-Dev] Deprecate PEP 370 Per user site-packages directory?

[Christian Heimes]

On 2018-01-13 20:08, Oleg Broytman wrote:
> Hi!
> 
> On Sat, Jan 13, 2018 at 06:06:16PM +0100, Christian Heimes 
>  wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> PEP 370 [1] was my first PEP that got accepted. I created it exactly one
>> decade and two days ago for Python 2.6 and 3.0. Back then we didn't have
>> virtual environment support in Python. Ian Bicking had just started to
>> create the virtualenv project a couple of months earlier.
>>
>> Fast forward 10 years...
>>
>> Nowadays Python has venv in the standard library. The user-specific
>> site-packages directory is no longer that useful.
> 
>Can I disagree?
> 
>> I would even say it's
>> causing more trouble than it's worth. For example it's common for system
>> script to use "#!/usr/bin/python3" shebang without -s or -I option.
> 
>System scripts are run under user root which seldom has user-specific
> site-packages so why worry?

You'd be surprised how many tools and programs are using Python these
days. You can easily break important user programs by installing a
package with --user.

Christian


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Re: [Python-Dev] Deprecate PEP 370 Per user site-packages directory?

[Oleg Broytman]

On Sat, Jan 13, 2018 at 07:18:41PM +0100, Christian Heimes 
 wrote:
> On 2018-01-13 19:04, Random832 wrote:
> > On Sat, Jan 13, 2018, at 12:06, Christian Heimes wrote:
> >> Hi,
> >>
> >> PEP 370 [1] was my first PEP that got accepted. I created it exactly one
> >> decade and two days ago for Python 2.6 and 3.0. Back then we didn't have
> >> virtual environment support in Python. Ian Bicking had just started to
> >> create the virtualenv project a couple of months earlier.
> >>
> >> Fast forward 10 years...
> >>
> >> Nowadays Python has venv in the standard library. The user-specific
> >> site-packages directory is no longer that useful. I would even say it's
> >> causing more trouble than it's worth. For example it's common for system
> >> script to use "#!/usr/bin/python3" shebang without -s or -I option.
> >>
> >> I propose to deprecate the feature and remove it in Python 4.0.
> > 
> > Where would pip install --user put packages, and how would one run scripts 
> > that require those packages? Right now these things Just Work; I've never 
> > had to learn how to use virtual environments.
> 
> I see two option:
> 
> 1) "pip install --user" is no longer supported. You have to learn how to
> use virtual envs. It's really easy: "python3 -m venv path; path/bin/pip
> install package".

   I've learned virtual envs and use them every day. I also use
``pip install --user``. Different use cases. Virtual envs are for
development, ``pip install --user`` for deployment.

> Christian

Oleg.
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   Programmers don't die, they just GOSUB without RETURN.
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Re: [Python-Dev] Deprecate PEP 370 Per user site-packages directory?

[Oleg Broytman]

Hi!

On Sat, Jan 13, 2018 at 06:06:16PM +0100, Christian Heimes 
 wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> PEP 370 [1] was my first PEP that got accepted. I created it exactly one
> decade and two days ago for Python 2.6 and 3.0. Back then we didn't have
> virtual environment support in Python. Ian Bicking had just started to
> create the virtualenv project a couple of months earlier.
> 
> Fast forward 10 years...
> 
> Nowadays Python has venv in the standard library. The user-specific
> site-packages directory is no longer that useful.

   Can I disagree?

> I would even say it's
> causing more trouble than it's worth. For example it's common for system
> script to use "#!/usr/bin/python3" shebang without -s or -I option.

   System scripts are run under user root which seldom has user-specific
site-packages so why worry?

> I propose to deprecate the feature and remove it in Python 4.0.
> 
> Regards,
> Christian
> 
> [1] https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0370/

Oleg.
-- 
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   Programmers don't die, they just GOSUB without RETURN.
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Re: [Python-Dev] Deprecate PEP 370 Per user site-packages directory?

[Paul Sokolovsky]

Hello,

On Sat, 13 Jan 2018 19:18:41 +0100
Christian Heimes  wrote:

[]

> >> Nowadays Python has venv in the standard library. The user-specific
> >> site-packages directory is no longer that useful. I would even say
> >> it's causing more trouble than it's worth. For example it's common
> >> for system script to use "#!/usr/bin/python3" shebang without -s
> >> or -I option.
> >>
> >> I propose to deprecate the feature and remove it in Python 4.0.  
> > 
> > Where would pip install --user put packages, and how would one run
> > scripts that require those packages? Right now these things Just
> > Work; I've never had to learn how to use virtual environments.  
> 
> I see two option:
> 
> 1) "pip install --user" is no longer supported. You have to learn how
> to use virtual envs. It's really easy: "python3 -m venv path;
> path/bin/pip install package".

Easy for whom? C, Ruby, JavaScript users, random grandmas and
grandpas? Please don't make innocent hate Python, and don't make
developers who chose Python to develop software hate it for
impossibility to provide decent user support for their software.


-- 
Best regards,
 Paul  mailto:pmis...@gmail.com
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Re: [Python-Dev] Deprecate PEP 370 Per user site-packages directory?

[Miro Hrončok]

On 13.1.2018 18:06, Christian Heimes wrote:

Nowadays Python has venv in the standard library. The user-specific
site-packages directory is no longer that useful. I would even say it's
causing more trouble than it's worth. For example it's common for system
script to use "#!/usr/bin/python3" shebang without -s or -I option.


While I consider venvs easy and cool, this just moves the barrier for 
the users a little bit higher. We (Fedora Python SIG) are fighting users 
that run `sudo pip install` all the time (because the Interwebz are full 
of such instructions). The users might be willing to listen to "please, 
don't use pip with sudo, use --user instead". However, if you tell them 
"learn how to use a venv", they'll just stick with sudo.


> I propose to deprecate the feature and remove it in Python 4.0.

We would very much like to see --user the default rather than having it 
removed.



--
Miro Hrončok
--
Phone: +420777974800
IRC: mhroncok
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Re: [Python-Dev] Deprecate PEP 370 Per user site-packages directory?

[Antoine Pitrou]

On Sat, 13 Jan 2018 19:18:41 +0100
Christian Heimes  wrote:
> On 2018-01-13 19:04, Random832 wrote:
> > On Sat, Jan 13, 2018, at 12:06, Christian Heimes wrote:  
> >> Hi,
> >>
> >> PEP 370 [1] was my first PEP that got accepted. I created it exactly one
> >> decade and two days ago for Python 2.6 and 3.0. Back then we didn't have
> >> virtual environment support in Python. Ian Bicking had just started to
> >> create the virtualenv project a couple of months earlier.
> >>
> >> Fast forward 10 years...
> >>
> >> Nowadays Python has venv in the standard library. The user-specific
> >> site-packages directory is no longer that useful. I would even say it's
> >> causing more trouble than it's worth. For example it's common for system
> >> script to use "#!/usr/bin/python3" shebang without -s or -I option.
> >>
> >> I propose to deprecate the feature and remove it in Python 4.0.  
> > 
> > Where would pip install --user put packages, and how would one run scripts 
> > that require those packages? Right now these things Just Work; I've never 
> > had to learn how to use virtual environments.  
> 
> I see two option:
> 
> 1) "pip install --user" is no longer supported. You have to learn how to
> use virtual envs. It's really easy: "python3 -m venv path; path/bin/pip
> install package".
> 2) "pip install --user" automatically creates or uses a custom virtual
> (~/.pip/virtualenv-$VERSION/) and links entry points to ~/.local/bin.

Option 2 doesn't work, since the installed package then isn't known to
the system Python.

I'm not sure user site-packages adds a lot of complexity to Python, so
I don't think it's worth breaking some people's usage.

Regards

Antoine.


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Re: [Python-Dev] Deprecate PEP 370 Per user site-packages directory?

[Christian Heimes]

On 2018-01-13 19:04, Random832 wrote:
> On Sat, Jan 13, 2018, at 12:06, Christian Heimes wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> PEP 370 [1] was my first PEP that got accepted. I created it exactly one
>> decade and two days ago for Python 2.6 and 3.0. Back then we didn't have
>> virtual environment support in Python. Ian Bicking had just started to
>> create the virtualenv project a couple of months earlier.
>>
>> Fast forward 10 years...
>>
>> Nowadays Python has venv in the standard library. The user-specific
>> site-packages directory is no longer that useful. I would even say it's
>> causing more trouble than it's worth. For example it's common for system
>> script to use "#!/usr/bin/python3" shebang without -s or -I option.
>>
>> I propose to deprecate the feature and remove it in Python 4.0.
> 
> Where would pip install --user put packages, and how would one run scripts 
> that require those packages? Right now these things Just Work; I've never had 
> to learn how to use virtual environments.

I see two option:

1) "pip install --user" is no longer supported. You have to learn how to
use virtual envs. It's really easy: "python3 -m venv path; path/bin/pip
install package".
2) "pip install --user" automatically creates or uses a custom virtual
(~/.pip/virtualenv-$VERSION/) and links entry points to ~/.local/bin.

Christian


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Re: [Python-Dev] Deprecate PEP 370 Per user site-packages directory?

[Random832]

On Sat, Jan 13, 2018, at 12:06, Christian Heimes wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> PEP 370 [1] was my first PEP that got accepted. I created it exactly one
> decade and two days ago for Python 2.6 and 3.0. Back then we didn't have
> virtual environment support in Python. Ian Bicking had just started to
> create the virtualenv project a couple of months earlier.
> 
> Fast forward 10 years...
> 
> Nowadays Python has venv in the standard library. The user-specific
> site-packages directory is no longer that useful. I would even say it's
> causing more trouble than it's worth. For example it's common for system
> script to use "#!/usr/bin/python3" shebang without -s or -I option.
> 
> I propose to deprecate the feature and remove it in Python 4.0.

Where would pip install --user put packages, and how would one run scripts that 
require those packages? Right now these things Just Work; I've never had to 
learn how to use virtual environments.
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