Some additional comments.
On Thu, Dec 09, 2021 at 08:32:43PM +, deavid wrote:
> 1) On really big codebases and complex projects, it's very easy to lose
> track of what things do. Types help detecting bugs early.
Static types help detecting *some* kinds of bugs early.
Python doesn't stop you
Yes. This is desperately needed. Usually I'm not a big fan of adding new
standard library modules but in this case since toml is becoming such a
critical part of packaging it seems like a no-brainer.
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On Fri, Dec 10, 2021 at 12:03:15AM +, Gabriele N Tornetta wrote:
> class Side(object):
> def __getattribute__(self, name):
> ValueError(name)
You forgot to actually *raise* the exception. That will just instantiate
the ValueError instance, and then immediately garbage collect it.
Hi David,
I think there's an important distinction to be made between "enforcing
types" as in "type annotations that are present are checked for
consistency at compile time and enforced at runtime, instead of only
being checked by a linter and possibly totally wrong at runtime" vs
"enforcing types
Another project you may want to look at is MyPyC [1], which is similar
in concept but takes a different approach; it compiles type-annotated
Python to CPython C extension code. MyPyC is much more mature and
something you could easily try out today.
Carl
[1] https://github.com/mypyc/mypyc
On 2021-12-09 12:47:28, Paul Bryan wrote:
> On Thu, 2021-12-09 at 19:01 +, Simão Afonso wrote:
> > I'm using docstrings bellow the attributes (analogous to functions
> > and
> > classes), I think it works well.
> > It helps with distinguishing the class docstring from the arguments.
>
> I thin
On 12/6/2021 1:24 AM, Christopher Barker wrote:
On Sun, Dec 5, 2021 at 10:38 AM David Mertz, Ph.D.
wrote:
I first discussed the idea of a "generalized deferred object/type"
on this list at least two years ago, probably more than three (I
haven't looked through archives lately to
I’m still not clear if this is a disagreement about something more than
terminology, but as I understand it, other languages that have non-constant
defaults use late binding, and call them “defaults”.
It seems to be a well accepted term.
-CHB
On Thu, Dec 9, 2021 at 12:45 AM Brendan Barnwell
On Thu, Dec 9, 2021 at 2:31 AM Paul Moore wrote
> Your email client is doing "white on white" again. You should try to
> get that fixed :-(
Aarrgg— it was iPhone “dark mode” — white on black for me. Why the heck it
preserves the text color (and not the background) is beyond me. I hope this
work
On Fri, Dec 10, 2021, 6:08 AM Simão Afonso
wrote:
> On 2021-12-09 12:47:28, Paul Bryan wrote:
> > On Thu, 2021-12-09 at 19:01 +, Simão Afonso wrote:
> > > I'm using docstrings bellow the attributes (analogous to functions
> > > and
> > > classes), I think it works well.
> > > It helps with di
Yes please!
It always seemed very odd to me that the standard packaging system would
require a non-standard library.
Surely TOML is stable enough by now?
-CHB
On Fri, Dec 10, 2021 at 4:06 AM Valentin Berlier
wrote:
> Yes. This is desperately needed. Usually I'm not a big fan of adding new
> s
On Fri, Dec 10, 2021 at 4:10 AM Carl Meyer wrote:
> Another project you may want to look at is MyPyC [1],
Or Cython, which has used a non-standard typing system for years, and is
currently working on adopting the new types.
It’s a very tricky business though, because Cython is generating C cod
On 2021-12-10 08:20:25, Ricky Teachey wrote:
> Very very interesting that Sphinx already treats a bare string under the
> parameter as documentation! I had no idea. Does it do the same thing at the
> module level?
Yes.
> $ cat module.py
> """This is the module docs"""
>
> class CLS:
> """CL
There is already some info/discussion over on the bug tracker:
https://bugs.python.org/issue40059
Sebastian
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On Fri, Dec 10, 2021 at 08:32:27AM -0800, Christopher Barker wrote:
> On Fri, Dec 10, 2021 at 4:07 AM Steven D'Aprano wrote:
>
> > > 1) On really big codebases and complex projects, it's very easy to lose
> > > track of what things do. Types help detecting bugs early.
> >
> > Static types help de
On Fri, Dec 10, 2021 at 11:46 AM Simão Afonso <
simao.afo...@powertools-tech.com> wrote:
> On 2021-12-10 08:20:25, Ricky Teachey wrote:
> > Very very interesting that Sphinx already treats a bare string under the
> > parameter as documentation! I had no idea. Does it do the same thing at
> the
> >
Steven D'Aprano wrote:
> > That seems to be close to the opinion of Robert C Martin:
> http://blog.cleancoder.com/uncle-bob/2016/05/01/TypeWars.html
> He also has some comments on languages like Koitlin and Swift that have
> gone down that path of mandatory static typing:
> http://blog.cleancoder
On 2021-12-10 12:20:44, Ricky Teachey wrote:
> I meant to ask about a (global) module member, not the module docstring
> itself. Like MY_GLOBAL below:
>
> """This is the module docs"""
>
> MY_GLOBAL = None
> """MY_GLOBAL docs"""
>
> class CLS:
>"""CLS docs"""
>
>attr: int
>
On Thu, 9 Dec 2021 at 17:54, deavid wrote:
> Hi, I would like to hear the opinion of Python's community on enforcing
> types in the future for the language.
>
here goes opinion: "no"!
strong no.
while _using_ tooling that have correct typing is a bit easier, it can make
it hard to write
code,
Well, this has a lot of strong opinions already! I didn't expect less :-)
I'm not sure how to answer so many thoughts without making this super-long.
I'll try to reply in general.
I agree that a compile-time python makes no sense, it would be a different
language and we would lose 90% of what Pyt
On Sat, Dec 11, 2021 at 7:44 AM deavid wrote:
> When I said earlier in "compile time", I was just trying to refer to the
> parsing step, or pre-parsing step. Or maybe means that "python a.py" => "mypy
> a.py && python a.py".
> I'm being very ambiguous here on purpose because there are tons of wa
On 2021-12-10 at 20:20:05 +,
deavid wrote:
> A lot of you are referring to scripting, learning, and other ways of
> using Python that would be badly impacted. I already acknowledged that
> these exist (or at least I didn't notice here any other that I wasn't
> aware), and that's why I mention
Hi,
(NB: I'm just a lurker here, posting for almost the
first time. I may say silly things.)
Le 09/12/2021 à 21:32, deavid a écrit :
Hi, I would like to hear the opinion of Python's community on
enforcing types in the future for the language. I've been using Python
as my main language for ever
On 12/9/2021 10:32 AM, Eric V. Smith wrote:
On 12/6/2021 1:24 AM, Christopher Barker wrote:
But I honestly don’t get it. My idea of a deferred object would be
quite different that this, would not be a great replacement for this,
and could quite happily co-exist with this idea. Clearly I’m mi
On Sat, Dec 11, 2021 at 9:26 AM Eric V. Smith wrote:
>
> On 12/9/2021 10:32 AM, Eric V. Smith wrote:
>
> On 12/6/2021 1:24 AM, Christopher Barker wrote:
>
>
>
> But I honestly don’t get it. My idea of a deferred object would be quite
> different that this, would not be a great replacement for thi
On 2021-12-10 at 17:24:22 -0500,
"Eric V. Smith" wrote:
> [0]: Or arguments, I can never remember which is which: someone needs
> to invent a memorable mnemonic device.
Pass Arguments
Accept Parameters
(I don't know. I just made that up. For some reason, the fact that
functions have "formal p
On Sat, Dec 11, 2021 at 9:43 AM <2qdxy4rzwzuui...@potatochowder.com> wrote:
>
> On 2021-12-10 at 17:24:22 -0500,
> "Eric V. Smith" wrote:
>
> > [0]: Or arguments, I can never remember which is which: someone needs
> > to invent a memorable mnemonic device.
>
> Pass Arguments
> Accept Parameters
>
>> a memorable mnemonic device.
> Pass Arguments
> Accept Parameters
Darn — the P and A are swapped there. But that’s the paradox with mnemonics
— that may help me remember it :-)
-CHB
>
>
> (I don't know. I just made that up. For some reason, the fact that
> functions have "formal parameter
So I went back and revised my idea for inline functions in python, and I
realized that it would be harder to implement them in python the way I had
originally thought about them, due to Python’s dynamic nature. However, the
idea itself doesn’t seem so original, as Cinder already implements inlin
Simão Afonso writes:
> On 2021-12-10 12:20:44, Ricky Teachey wrote:
> > I meant to ask about a (global) module member, not the module docstring
> > itself. Like MY_GLOBAL below:
> >
> > """This is the module docs"""
> >
> > MY_GLOBAL = None
> > """MY_GLOBAL docs"""
> >
> > Is this "
Eric V. Smith writes:
> That's why I think we should have a larger concept that just late-bound
> parameters: I think there's a general concept here that can be extended
> beyond parameters.
One advantage of Chris's preferred syntax is that as a default in a
function's parameter list it coul
On Sat, Dec 11, 2021 at 5:35 PM Stephen J. Turnbull
wrote:
>
> Eric V. Smith writes:
>
> > That's why I think we should have a larger concept that just late-bound
> > parameters: I think there's a general concept here that can be extended
> > beyond parameters.
>
> One advantage of Chris's pref
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