Re: [Python-ideas] Consider generalizing Decimal to support arbitrary radix

[Greg Ewing]

Mark Dickinson wrote:


And base-16 floating-point is still used in current IBM hardware, but I
don't know whether that's purely for historical/backwards-compatibility
reasons, or because it's faster for the FPU.


Historically, base 16 was used to get a bigger exponent
range for a given number of exponent bits. That was a
bigger deal back when memory was very expensive. I doubt
there's any advantage in it now.

--
Greg

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Re: [Python-ideas] Consider generalizing Decimal to support arbitrary radix

[Mark Dickinson]

On Wed, Feb 7, 2018 at 10:50 PM, Steven D'Aprano 
wrote:

> Why?
>
> There are clear advantages to floating point arithmetic done in base 2
> (speed, minimum possible rounding error, least amount of wobble), and a
> different advantage to floating point done in base 10 (matches exactly
> the standard decimal notation used by humans with no conversion error),
> Outside of those two bases, arithmetic done in any other base is going
> to combine the worst of both:
>

Well, there are a couple of other bases that are potentially interesting.
There are some compelling mathematical advantages to using ternary
(or even better, balanced ternary). Knuth calls balanced ternary "Perhaps
the prettiest number system of all" in TAOCP, and ternary is in some sense
the most efficient base to use; the article "Third Base" by Brian Hayes
(Sci. Am., 2001) gives a nice overview. It's completely inappropriate
for binary hardware, of course.

And base-16 floating-point is still used in current IBM hardware, but I
don't know whether that's purely for historical/backwards-compatibility
reasons, or because it's faster for the FPU.

As to making decimal support arbitrary radix, though: I don't see that
happening any time soon. The amount of work would be enormous,
for questionable gain.

-- 
Mark
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Re: [Python-ideas] Consider generalizing Decimal to support arbitrary radix

[Neil Girdhar]

That's really cool!  I never knew about gmpy.

On Wed, Feb 7, 2018 at 7:10 PM Case Van Horsen  wrote:

> On Wed, Feb 7, 2018 at 3:49 PM, Neil Girdhar 
> wrote:
> > On Wed, Feb 7, 2018 at 6:36 PM Chris Angelico  wrote:
> >> You should be able to use the native float type for binary
> >> floating-point. But the whole point of that challenge is that you
> >> shouldn't need a computer.
> >
> >
> > Yeah, I know, but I wanted to play with it.  Anyway, native floats don't
> > help.
> >>
> >>
> >> ChrisA
>
> I maintain gmpy2 and it might do what you want (arbitrary precision
> radix-2 arithmetic and easy access to the bits).
>
> >>> gmpy2.get_context().precision=70
> >>> gmpy2.mpfr(1)/7
> mpfr('0.14285714285714285714283',70)
> >>> (gmpy2.mpfr(1)/7).digits(2)
> ('1001001001001001001001001001001001001001001001001001001001001001001001',
> -2, 70)
>
> Historical memory - I once wrote a radix-6 fixed point library to
> explore an extension of the 3n+1 problem to rational numbers. It was
> written in Turbo Pascal and ran for days on a 286/287 PC.
>
> casevh
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Re: [Python-ideas] Consider generalizing Decimal to support arbitrary radix

[Terry Reedy]

On 2/7/2018 6:08 PM, Neil Girdhar wrote:


On Wed, Feb 7, 2018 at 5:52 PM Steven D'Aprano 
> wrote:


On Wed, Feb 07, 2018 at 10:08:50PM +, Neil Girdhar wrote:

 > Oh, and to answer your specific question, I want to change the way
 > arithmetic is done.  I want it to be done in a different radix.

Why?

There are clear advantages to floating point arithmetic done in base 2
(speed, minimum possible rounding error, least amount of wobble), and a
different advantage to floating point done in base 10 (matches exactly
the standard decimal notation used by humans with no conversion error),


This is the specialness of base 10


Outside of those two bases, arithmetic done in any other base is going
to combine the worst of both:

- slower;
- larger errors when converting from decimal numbers (in general);
- larger rounding errors;
- larger wobble;



I don't see why it would have any of those problems.


Any base other than 2 has decreased speed (on a binary computer) and 
increased computational rounding errors and wobble.



  Base 10 isn't special in any way.


Except as noted above and the fact that computation with binary coded 
decimal goes back to the early days of electronic computation.



with no corresponding advantages unless your data is coming to you in
arbitrary bases.


Right, I was playing with this problem 
(https://brilliant.org/weekly-problems/2017-10-02/advanced/?problem=no-computer-needed) 
and wanted to work in base 2.  I realize it's niche, but it's not 
exactly a significant change to the interface even if it's a big change 
to the implementation.


In cpython, decimal uses _cdecimal for speed.  I suspect that 10 is not 
only explicitly hard-coded as the base but implicitly hard-coded by 
using algorithm tricks that depend on and only work when the base is 10.


--
Terry Jan Reedy


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Re: [Python-ideas] Consider generalizing Decimal to support arbitrary radix

[Steven D'Aprano]

On Wed, Feb 07, 2018 at 11:49:27PM +, Neil Girdhar wrote:

> I see your list was about converting to and from base 10.  That wasn't
> really intended in my proposal.  I meant wholly working in another base.
> In that sense, 10 isn't particularly "fast, error-free, better at rounding,
> etc."

I never said it was. Base 2 floats is the one that is faster and better 
at rounding than any other base. No finite precision floating point 
arithmetic can be error free, but all else being equal, base 2 minimises 
the errors you get.

The advantage of base 10 is that it matches the standard base 10 
numbers we write. Within the boundaries of the available precision, if 
you can write it in decimal, you can represent it in a decimal float. 
That isn't necessarily true of decimal -> binary floats.


> > > Right, I was playing with this problem
> > > (
> > https://brilliant.org/weekly-problems/2017-10-02/advanced/?problem=no-computer-needed
> > )
> > > and wanted to work in base 2.  I realize it's niche, but it's not
> > exactly a
> > > significant change to the interface even if it's a big change to the
> > > implementation.
> >
> > You should be able to use the native float type for binary
> > floating-point. But the whole point of that challenge is that you
> > shouldn't need a computer.
> >
> 
> Yeah, I know, but I wanted to play with it.  Anyway, native floats don't
> help.

Why not?

If you can write the float in binary exactly, you can write it in hex, 
and use float.fromhex() to convert it exactly (provided it fits into the 
64-bit floats Python uses).



-- 
Steve
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Re: [Python-ideas] Consider generalizing Decimal to support arbitrary radix

[Case Van Horsen]

On Wed, Feb 7, 2018 at 3:49 PM, Neil Girdhar  wrote:
> On Wed, Feb 7, 2018 at 6:36 PM Chris Angelico  wrote:
>> You should be able to use the native float type for binary
>> floating-point. But the whole point of that challenge is that you
>> shouldn't need a computer.
>
>
> Yeah, I know, but I wanted to play with it.  Anyway, native floats don't
> help.
>>
>>
>> ChrisA

I maintain gmpy2 and it might do what you want (arbitrary precision
radix-2 arithmetic and easy access to the bits).

>>> gmpy2.get_context().precision=70
>>> gmpy2.mpfr(1)/7
mpfr('0.14285714285714285714283',70)
>>> (gmpy2.mpfr(1)/7).digits(2)
('1001001001001001001001001001001001001001001001001001001001001001001001',
-2, 70)

Historical memory - I once wrote a radix-6 fixed point library to
explore an extension of the 3n+1 problem to rational numbers. It was
written in Turbo Pascal and ran for days on a 286/287 PC.

casevh
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Re: [Python-ideas] Consider generalizing Decimal to support arbitrary radix

[Chris Angelico]

On Thu, Feb 8, 2018 at 10:49 AM, Neil Girdhar  wrote:
>> > Right, I was playing with this problem
>> >
>> > (https://brilliant.org/weekly-problems/2017-10-02/advanced/?problem=no-computer-needed)
>> > and wanted to work in base 2.  I realize it's niche, but it's not
>> > exactly a
>> > significant change to the interface even if it's a big change to the
>> > implementation.
>>
>> You should be able to use the native float type for binary
>> floating-point. But the whole point of that challenge is that you
>> shouldn't need a computer.
>
>
> Yeah, I know, but I wanted to play with it.  Anyway, native floats don't
> help.

Sounds like performance isn't going to be a big problem, then. You can
manage with a non-optimized and naive implementation. So here's a
couple of things to try:

1) Check out PyPI and see if something like what you want exists.
2) Poke around in the source code for the Decimal class (ignore the C
module and use the pure Python one) and see if you can hack on it.

It'd then be off-topic for python-ideas, but it'd be an awesome topic
to discuss on python-list. Exploration is great fun, and Python's a
great language to explore with.

ChrisA
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Re: [Python-ideas] Consider generalizing Decimal to support arbitrary radix

[Neil Girdhar]

On Wed, Feb 7, 2018 at 6:36 PM Chris Angelico  wrote:

> On Thu, Feb 8, 2018 at 10:08 AM, Neil Girdhar 
> wrote:
> >
> > On Wed, Feb 7, 2018 at 5:52 PM Steven D'Aprano 
> wrote:
> >>
> >> - slower;
> >> - larger errors when converting from decimal numbers (in general);
> >> - larger rounding errors;
> >> - larger wobble;
> >
> >
> > I don't see why it would have any of those problems.  Base 10 isn't
> special
> > in any way.
>
> Base 10 *is* special, because it corresponds to what humans use. In
> binary floating-point, you get weird results (by human standards) like
> 0.1+0.2 not being 0.3; that doesn't happen in decimal.
>
> There is no error when converting from a string of decimal digits to a
> decimal.Decimal, so presumably to avoid error, you'd have to work with
> digits in the same base. The rounding errors and wobble are by
> comparison with binary; you get the same problems in any other base,
> without the benefit of human-friendly behaviour.
>

I see your list was about converting to and from base 10.  That wasn't
really intended in my proposal.  I meant wholly working in another base.
In that sense, 10 isn't particularly "fast, error-free, better at rounding,
etc."

>
> > Right, I was playing with this problem
> > (
> https://brilliant.org/weekly-problems/2017-10-02/advanced/?problem=no-computer-needed
> )
> > and wanted to work in base 2.  I realize it's niche, but it's not
> exactly a
> > significant change to the interface even if it's a big change to the
> > implementation.
>
> You should be able to use the native float type for binary
> floating-point. But the whole point of that challenge is that you
> shouldn't need a computer.
>

Yeah, I know, but I wanted to play with it.  Anyway, native floats don't
help.

>
> ChrisA
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Re: [Python-ideas] Consider generalizing Decimal to support arbitrary radix

[Chris Angelico]

On Thu, Feb 8, 2018 at 10:08 AM, Neil Girdhar  wrote:
>
> On Wed, Feb 7, 2018 at 5:52 PM Steven D'Aprano  wrote:
>>
>> - slower;
>> - larger errors when converting from decimal numbers (in general);
>> - larger rounding errors;
>> - larger wobble;
>
>
> I don't see why it would have any of those problems.  Base 10 isn't special
> in any way.

Base 10 *is* special, because it corresponds to what humans use. In
binary floating-point, you get weird results (by human standards) like
0.1+0.2 not being 0.3; that doesn't happen in decimal.

There is no error when converting from a string of decimal digits to a
decimal.Decimal, so presumably to avoid error, you'd have to work with
digits in the same base. The rounding errors and wobble are by
comparison with binary; you get the same problems in any other base,
without the benefit of human-friendly behaviour.

> Right, I was playing with this problem
> (https://brilliant.org/weekly-problems/2017-10-02/advanced/?problem=no-computer-needed)
> and wanted to work in base 2.  I realize it's niche, but it's not exactly a
> significant change to the interface even if it's a big change to the
> implementation.

You should be able to use the native float type for binary
floating-point. But the whole point of that challenge is that you
shouldn't need a computer.

ChrisA
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Re: [Python-ideas] Consider generalizing Decimal to support arbitrary radix

[Neil Girdhar]

On Wed, Feb 7, 2018 at 5:52 PM Steven D'Aprano  wrote:

> On Wed, Feb 07, 2018 at 10:08:50PM +, Neil Girdhar wrote:
>
> > Oh, and to answer your specific question, I want to change the way
> > arithmetic is done.  I want it to be done in a different radix.
>
> Why?
>
> There are clear advantages to floating point arithmetic done in base 2
> (speed, minimum possible rounding error, least amount of wobble), and a
> different advantage to floating point done in base 10 (matches exactly
> the standard decimal notation used by humans with no conversion error),
> Outside of those two bases, arithmetic done in any other base is going
> to combine the worst of both:
>
> - slower;
> - larger errors when converting from decimal numbers (in general);
> - larger rounding errors;
> - larger wobble;
>

I don't see why it would have any of those problems.  Base 10 isn't special
in any way.

>
> with no corresponding advantages unless your data is coming to you in
> arbitrary bases.
>

Right, I was playing with this problem (
https://brilliant.org/weekly-problems/2017-10-02/advanced/?problem=no-computer-needed)
and wanted to work in base 2.  I realize it's niche, but it's not exactly a
significant change to the interface even if it's a big change to the
implementation.


>
> Doing floating point arithmetic in decimal is already slower and less
> accurate than doing it in binary. I'd like to hear more about your
> use-case for doing it in base 19 or base 7, say, but I would have to
> guess that it is likely to be such a niche use-case that this
> functionality doesn't belong in the standard library.
>
>
> --
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Re: [Python-ideas] Consider generalizing Decimal to support arbitrary radix

[Steven D'Aprano]

On Wed, Feb 07, 2018 at 10:08:50PM +, Neil Girdhar wrote:

> Oh, and to answer your specific question, I want to change the way
> arithmetic is done.  I want it to be done in a different radix.

Why?

There are clear advantages to floating point arithmetic done in base 2 
(speed, minimum possible rounding error, least amount of wobble), and a 
different advantage to floating point done in base 10 (matches exactly 
the standard decimal notation used by humans with no conversion error), 
Outside of those two bases, arithmetic done in any other base is going 
to combine the worst of both:

- slower;
- larger errors when converting from decimal numbers (in general);
- larger rounding errors;
- larger wobble;

with no corresponding advantages unless your data is coming to you in 
arbitrary bases.

Doing floating point arithmetic in decimal is already slower and less 
accurate than doing it in binary. I'd like to hear more about your 
use-case for doing it in base 19 or base 7, say, but I would have to 
guess that it is likely to be such a niche use-case that this 
functionality doesn't belong in the standard library.


-- 
Steve
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Re: [Python-ideas] Consider generalizing Decimal to support arbitrary radix

[Neil Girdhar]

Oh, and to answer your specific question, I want to change the way
arithmetic is done.  I want it to be done in a different radix.

On Wed, Feb 7, 2018 at 5:07 PM Neil Girdhar  wrote:

> I wanted to have something like a binary floating point number like
> 0.11011.  Ideally, it would be as simple as Decimal('0.11011', radix=2).
>
> Best,
>
> Neil
>
> On Wed, Feb 7, 2018 at 5:02 PM Chris Angelico  wrote:
>
>> On Thu, Feb 8, 2018 at 8:49 AM, Neil Girdhar 
>> wrote:
>> > Arbitrary radix comes up every now and then and Decimal already has a
>> > radix() method.  It would be nice when initializing a Decimal object to
>> be
>> > able to specify an arbitrary radix>=2.
>> >
>>
>> The radix method always returns 10, because decimal.Decimal always
>> operates in base 10. Are you looking for a way to change the way
>> arithmetic is done, or are you looking for a way to construct a
>> Decimal from a string of digits and an arbitrary base (the way
>> int("...", x) does)?
>>
>> ChrisA
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Re: [Python-ideas] Consider generalizing Decimal to support arbitrary radix

[Neil Girdhar]

I wanted to have something like a binary floating point number like
0.11011.  Ideally, it would be as simple as Decimal('0.11011', radix=2).

Best,

Neil

On Wed, Feb 7, 2018 at 5:02 PM Chris Angelico  wrote:

> On Thu, Feb 8, 2018 at 8:49 AM, Neil Girdhar 
> wrote:
> > Arbitrary radix comes up every now and then and Decimal already has a
> > radix() method.  It would be nice when initializing a Decimal object to
> be
> > able to specify an arbitrary radix>=2.
> >
>
> The radix method always returns 10, because decimal.Decimal always
> operates in base 10. Are you looking for a way to change the way
> arithmetic is done, or are you looking for a way to construct a
> Decimal from a string of digits and an arbitrary base (the way
> int("...", x) does)?
>
> ChrisA
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Re: [Python-ideas] Consider generalizing Decimal to support arbitrary radix

[Chris Angelico]

On Thu, Feb 8, 2018 at 8:49 AM, Neil Girdhar  wrote:
> Arbitrary radix comes up every now and then and Decimal already has a
> radix() method.  It would be nice when initializing a Decimal object to be
> able to specify an arbitrary radix>=2.
>

The radix method always returns 10, because decimal.Decimal always
operates in base 10. Are you looking for a way to change the way
arithmetic is done, or are you looking for a way to construct a
Decimal from a string of digits and an arbitrary base (the way
int("...", x) does)?

ChrisA
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[Python-ideas] Consider generalizing Decimal to support arbitrary radix

[Neil Girdhar]

Arbitrary radix comes up every now and then and Decimal already has a 
radix() method.  It would be nice when initializing a Decimal object to be 
able to specify an arbitrary radix>=2.
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