Re: [Python-ideas] Proposal for default character representation

2016-10-16 Thread Steven D'Aprano
On Sun, Oct 16, 2016 at 05:02:49PM +0200, Mikhail V wrote: > In this discussion yes, but layout aspects can be also > improved and I suppose special purpose of > language does not always dictate the layout of > code, it is up to you who can define that also. > And glyphs is not very narrow

Re: [Python-ideas] Proposal for default character representation

2016-10-16 Thread Greg Ewing
Mikhail V wrote: Those things cannot be easiliy measured, if at all, If you can't measure something, you can't be sure it exists at all. > In my case I am looking at what I've achieved during years of my work on it and indeed there some interesting things there. Have you *measured*

Re: [Python-ideas] Proposal for default character representation

2016-10-16 Thread Mikhail V
On 16 October 2016 at 04:10, Steve Dower wrote: >> I posted output with Python2 and Windows 7 >> BTW , In Windows 10 'print' won't work in cmd console at all by default >> with unicode but thats another story, let us not go into that. >> I think you get my idea right, it

Re: [Python-ideas] Proposal for default character representation

2016-10-16 Thread Mikhail V
On 16 October 2016 at 17:16, Todd wrote: >Even if you were right that your approach is somehow inherently easier, >it is flat-out wrong that other approaches lead to "brain impairment". >On the contrary, it is well-established that challenging >the brain prevents or at least

Re: [Python-ideas] Proposal for default character representation

2016-10-16 Thread Todd
On Thu, Oct 13, 2016 at 1:46 AM, Mikhail V wrote: > Practically all this notation does, it reduces the time > before you as a programmer > become visual and brain impairments. > > Even if you were right that your approach is somehow inherently easier, it is flat-out wrong

Re: [Python-ideas] Proposal for default character representation

2016-10-16 Thread Mikhail V
On 16 October 2016 at 02:58, Greg Ewing wrote: >> even if it is assembler or whatever, >> it can be made readable without much effort. > > > You seem to be focused on a very narrow aspect of > readability, i.e. fine details of individual character > glyphs. That's

Re: [Python-ideas] Proposal for default character representation

2016-10-15 Thread Steve Dower
ython-ideas@python.org" <python-ideas@python.org> Subject: Re: [Python-ideas] Proposal for default character representation Forgot to reply to all, duping my mesage... On 12 October 2016 at 23:48, M.-A. Lemburg <m...@egenix.com> wrote: > Hmm, in Python3, I get: > >>

Re: [Python-ideas] Proposal for default character representation

2016-10-15 Thread Brendan Barnwell
On 2016-10-12 22:46, Mikhail V wrote: For numbers obviously you don't need so many character as for speech encoding, so this means that only those glyphs or even a subset of it should be used. This means anything more than 8 characters is quite worthless for reading numbers. Note that I can't

Re: [Python-ideas] Proposal for default character representation

2016-10-15 Thread Greg Ewing
Mikhail V wrote: Also I can only hard imagine that special purpose of some language can ignore readability, Readability is not something absolute that stands on its own. It depends a great deal on what is being expressed. even if it is assembler or whatever, it can be made readable without

Re: [Python-ideas] Proposal for default character representation

2016-10-15 Thread Chris Angelico
On Sun, Oct 16, 2016 at 12:06 AM, Mikhail V wrote: > But I can bravely claim that it is better than *any* > hex notation, it just follows from what I have here > on paper on my table, namely that it is physically > impossible to make up highly effective glyph system > of

Re: [Python-ideas] Proposal for default character representation

2016-10-15 Thread Mikhail V
On 14 October 2016 at 11:36, Greg Ewing wrote: >but bash wasn't designed for that. >(The fact that some people use it that way says more >about their dogged persistence in the face of >adversity than it does about bash.) I can not judge what bash is good for, since

Re: [Python-ideas] Proposal for default character representation

2016-10-15 Thread M.-A. Lemburg
On 14.10.2016 10:26, Serhiy Storchaka wrote: > On 13.10.16 17:50, Chris Angelico wrote: >> Solution: Abolish most of the control characters. Let's define a brand >> new character encoding with no "alphabetical garbage". These >> characters will be sufficient for everyone: >> >> * [2] Formatting

Re: [Python-ideas] Proposal for default character representation

2016-10-15 Thread Steven D'Aprano
On Sat, Oct 15, 2016 at 01:42:34PM +1300, Greg Ewing wrote: > Steven D'Aprano wrote: > >That's because some sequence of characters > >is being wrongly interpreted as an emoticon by the client software. > > The only thing wrong here is that the client software > is trying to interpret the

Re: [Python-ideas] Proposal for default character representation

2016-10-14 Thread Greg Ewing
Steven D'Aprano wrote: That's because some sequence of characters is being wrongly interpreted as an emoticon by the client software. The only thing wrong here is that the client software is trying to interpret the emoticons. Emoticons are for *humans* to interpret, not software. Subtlety and

Re: [Python-ideas] Proposal for default character representation

2016-10-14 Thread Steven D'Aprano
On Fri, Oct 14, 2016 at 07:56:29AM -0400, Random832 wrote: > On Fri, Oct 14, 2016, at 01:54, Steven D'Aprano wrote: > > Good luck with that last one. Even if you could convince the Chinese and > > Japanese to swap to ASCII, I'd like to see you pry the emoji out of the > > young folk's phones. >

Re: [Python-ideas] Proposal for default character representation

2016-10-14 Thread Chris Angelico
On Fri, Oct 14, 2016 at 10:56 PM, Random832 wrote: > On Fri, Oct 14, 2016, at 01:54, Steven D'Aprano wrote: >> Good luck with that last one. Even if you could convince the Chinese and >> Japanese to swap to ASCII, I'd like to see you pry the emoji out of the >> young

Re: [Python-ideas] Proposal for default character representation

2016-10-14 Thread Random832
On Fri, Oct 14, 2016, at 01:54, Steven D'Aprano wrote: > Good luck with that last one. Even if you could convince the Chinese and > Japanese to swap to ASCII, I'd like to see you pry the emoji out of the > young folk's phones. This is actually probably the one part of this proposal that *is*

Re: [Python-ideas] Proposal for default character representation

2016-10-14 Thread Chris Angelico
On Fri, Oct 14, 2016 at 8:36 PM, Greg Ewing wrote: >> I know people who can read bash scripts >> fast, but would you claim that bash syntax can be >> any good compared to Python syntax? > > > For the things that bash was designed to be good for, > yes, it can. Python

Re: [Python-ideas] Proposal for default character representation

2016-10-14 Thread Greg Ewing
Mikhail V wrote: if "\u1230" <= c <= "\u123f": and: o = ord (c) if 100 <= o <= 150: Note that, if need be, you could also write that as if 0x64 <= o <= 0x96: So yours is a valid code but for me its freaky, and surely I stick to the second variant. The thing is, where did you get

Re: [Python-ideas] Proposal for default character representation

2016-10-14 Thread Serhiy Storchaka
On 13.10.16 17:50, Chris Angelico wrote: Solution: Abolish most of the control characters. Let's define a brand new character encoding with no "alphabetical garbage". These characters will be sufficient for everyone: * [2] Formatting characters: space, newline. Everything else can go. * [8]

Re: [Python-ideas] Proposal for default character representation

2016-10-14 Thread Chris Angelico
On Fri, Oct 14, 2016 at 7:18 PM, Cory Benfield wrote: > The many glyphs that exist for writing various human languages are not > inefficiency to be optimised away. Further, I should note that most places to > not legislate about what character sets are acceptable to

Re: [Python-ideas] Proposal for default character representation

2016-10-14 Thread Cory Benfield
> On 14 Oct 2016, at 08:53, Mikhail V wrote: > > What keeps people from using same characters? > I will tell you what - it is local law. If you go to school you *have* to > write in what is prescribed by big daddy. If youre in europe or America, you > are > more lucky.

Re: [Python-ideas] Proposal for default character representation

2016-10-14 Thread Chris Angelico
On Fri, Oct 14, 2016 at 6:53 PM, Mikhail V wrote: > On 13 October 2016 at 16:50, Chris Angelico wrote: >> On Fri, Oct 14, 2016 at 1:25 AM, Steven D'Aprano wrote: >>> On Thu, Oct 13, 2016 at 03:56:59AM +0200, Mikhail V wrote: and

Re: [Python-ideas] Proposal for default character representation

2016-10-14 Thread Mikhail V
On 13 October 2016 at 16:50, Chris Angelico wrote: > On Fri, Oct 14, 2016 at 1:25 AM, Steven D'Aprano wrote: >> On Thu, Oct 13, 2016 at 03:56:59AM +0200, Mikhail V wrote: >>> and in long perspective when the world's alphabetical garbage will >>> dissapear,

Re: [Python-ideas] Proposal for default character representation

2016-10-14 Thread Sjoerd Job Postmus
On Fri, Oct 14, 2016 at 08:05:40AM +0200, Mikhail V wrote: > Any critics on it? Besides not following the unicode consortium. Besides the other remarks on "tradition", I think this is where a big problem lies: We should not deviate from a common standard (without very good cause). There are

Re: [Python-ideas] Proposal for default character representation

2016-10-14 Thread Mikhail V
On 13 October 2016 at 12:05, Cory Benfield wrote: > > integer & 0x00FF # Hex > integer & 16777215 # Decimal > integer & 0o # Octal > integer & 0b # Binary > > The octal representation is infuriating because one octal digit refers to >

Re: [Python-ideas] Proposal for default character representation

2016-10-14 Thread Jonathan Goble
On Fri, Oct 14, 2016 at 1:54 AM, Steven D'Aprano wrote: >> and: >> >> o = ord (c) >> if 100 <= o <= 150: > > Which is clearly not the same thing, and better written as: > > if "d" <= c <= "\x96": > ... Or, if you really want to use ord(), you can use hex literals: o =

Re: [Python-ideas] Proposal for default character representation

2016-10-14 Thread Mikhail V
On 13 October 2016 at 10:18, M.-A. Lemburg wrote: > I suppose you did not intend everyone to have to write > \u010 just to get a newline code point to avoid the > ambiguity. Ok there are different usage cases. So in short without going into detail, for example if I need to

Re: [Python-ideas] Proposal for default character representation

2016-10-13 Thread Steven D'Aprano
On Fri, Oct 14, 2016 at 07:21:48AM +0200, Mikhail V wrote: > I'll explain what I mean with an example. > This is an example which I would make to > support my proposal. Compare: > > if "\u1230" <= c <= "\u123f": For an English-speaker writing that, I'd recommend: if "\N{ETHIOPIC SYLLABLE SA}"

Re: [Python-ideas] Proposal for default character representation

2016-10-13 Thread Mikhail V
Greg Ewing wrote: > #define O_RDONLY0x /* open for reading only */ > #define O_WRONLY0x0001 /* open for writing only */ > #define O_RDWR 0x0002 /* open for reading and writing */ > #define O_ACCMODE 0x0003 /* mask for above

Re: [Python-ideas] Proposal for default character representation

2016-10-13 Thread Ned Batchelder
On 10/13/16 2:42 AM, Mikhail V wrote: > On 13 October 2016 at 08:02, Greg Ewing wrote: >> Mikhail V wrote: >>> Consider unicode table as an array with glyphs. >> >> You mean like this one? >> >> http://unicode-table.com/en/ >> >> Unless I've miscounted, that one has

Re: [Python-ideas] Proposal for default character representation

2016-10-13 Thread Thomas Nyberg
On 10/12/2016 07:13 PM, Mikhail V wrote: On 12 October 2016 at 23:50, Thomas Nyberg wrote: Since when was decimal notation "standard"? Depends on what planet do you live. I live on planet Earth. And you? If you mean that decimal notation is the standard used for

Re: [Python-ideas] Proposal for default character representation

2016-10-13 Thread Chris Angelico
On Fri, Oct 14, 2016 at 1:25 AM, Steven D'Aprano wrote: > On Thu, Oct 13, 2016 at 03:56:59AM +0200, Mikhail V wrote: >> and in long perspective when the world's alphabetical garbage will >> dissapear, two digits would be ok. > Talking about "alphabetical garbage" like that

Re: [Python-ideas] Proposal for default character representation

2016-10-13 Thread Steven D'Aprano
On Thu, Oct 13, 2016 at 03:56:59AM +0200, Mikhail V wrote: > > How many decimal digits would you use to denote a single character? > > for text, three decimal digits would be enough for me personally, Well, if it's enough for you, why would anyone need more? > and in long perspective when the

Re: [Python-ideas] Proposal for default character representation

2016-10-13 Thread Chris Angelico
On Thu, Oct 13, 2016 at 9:05 PM, Cory Benfield wrote: > Binary notation seems like the solution, but note the above case: the only > way to work out how many bits are being masked out is to count them, and > there can be quite a lot. IIRC there’s some new syntax coming for

Re: [Python-ideas] Proposal for default character representation

2016-10-13 Thread Greg Ewing
Mikhail V wrote: Eee how would I find if the character lies in certain range? >>> c = "\u1235" >>> if "\u1230" <= c <= "\u123f": ... print("Boo!") ... Boo! -- Greg ___ Python-ideas mailing list Python-ideas@python.org

Re: [Python-ideas] Proposal for default character representation

2016-10-13 Thread Greg Ewing
Mikhail V wrote: Ok, but if I write a string filtering in Python for example then obviously I use decimal everywhere to compare index ranges, etc. so what is the use for me of that label? Just redundant conversions back and forth. I'm not sure what you mean by that. If by "index ranges"

Re: [Python-ideas] Proposal for default character representation

2016-10-13 Thread Greg Ewing
Mikhail V wrote: I am not against base-16 itself in the first place, but rather against the character set which is simply visually inconsistent and not readable. Now you're talking about inventing new characters, or at least new glyphs for existing ones, and persuading everyone to use them.

Re: [Python-ideas] Proposal for default character representation

2016-10-13 Thread Greg Ewing
Mikhail V wrote: Did you see much code written with hex literals? From /usr/include/sys/fcntl.h: /* * File status flags: these are used by open(2), fcntl(2). * They are also used (indirectly) in the kernel file structure f_flags, * which is a superset of the open/fcntl flags. Open flags

Re: [Python-ideas] Proposal for default character representation

2016-10-13 Thread M.-A. Lemburg
On 13.10.2016 01:06, Mikhail V wrote: > On 12 October 2016 at 23:48, M.-A. Lemburg wrote: >> The hex notation for \u is a standard also used in many other >> programming languages, it's also easier to parse, so I don't >> think we should change this default. > > In

Re: [Python-ideas] Proposal for default character representation

2016-10-13 Thread Mikhail V
On 13 October 2016 at 08:02, Greg Ewing wrote: > Mikhail V wrote: >> >> Consider unicode table as an array with glyphs. > > > You mean like this one? > > http://unicode-table.com/en/ > > Unless I've miscounted, that one has the characters > arranged in rows of 16, so

Re: [Python-ideas] Proposal for default character representation

2016-10-13 Thread Mikhail V
On 13 October 2016 at 04:49, Emanuel Barry <vgr...@live.ca> wrote: >> From: Mikhail V >> Sent: Wednesday, October 12, 2016 9:57 PM >> Subject: Re: [Python-ideas] Proposal for default character representation > > Hello, and welcome to Python-ideas, where only a small

Re: [Python-ideas] Proposal for default character representation

2016-10-12 Thread Greg Ewing
Mikhail V wrote: And decimal is objectively way more readable than hex standard character set, regardless of how strong your habits are. That depends on what you're trying to read from it. I can look at a hex number and instantly get a mental picture of the bit pattern it represents. I can't

Re: [Python-ideas] Proposal for default character representation

2016-10-12 Thread Mikhail V
On 13 October 2016 at 04:18, Brendan Barnwell wrote: > On 2016-10-12 18:56, Mikhail V wrote: >> >> Please don't mix the readability and personal habit, which previuos >> repliers seems to do as well. Those two things has nothing >> to do with each other. > > > You

Re: [Python-ideas] Proposal for default character representation

2016-10-12 Thread Emanuel Barry
> From: Mikhail V > Sent: Wednesday, October 12, 2016 9:57 PM > Subject: Re: [Python-ideas] Proposal for default character representation Hello, and welcome to Python-ideas, where only a small portion of ideas go further, and where most newcomers that wish to improve the languag

Re: [Python-ideas] Proposal for default character representation

2016-10-12 Thread Ryan Gonzalez
On Oct 12, 2016 9:25 PM, "Chris Angelico" wrote: > > On Thu, Oct 13, 2016 at 12:56 PM, Mikhail V wrote: > > But as said I find this Unicode only some temporary happening, > > it will go to history in some future and be > > used only to study extinct

Re: [Python-ideas] Proposal for default character representation

2016-10-12 Thread Ryan Gonzalez
On Oct 12, 2016 4:33 PM, "Mikhail V" wrote: > > Hello all, > > *snip* > > PROPOSAL: > 1. Remove all hex notation from printing functions, typing, > documention. > So for printing functions leave the hex as an "option", > for example for those who feel the need for hex

Re: [Python-ideas] Proposal for default character representation

2016-10-12 Thread Chris Angelico
On Thu, Oct 13, 2016 at 12:56 PM, Mikhail V wrote: > But as said I find this Unicode only some temporary happening, > it will go to history in some future and be > used only to study extinct glyphs. And what will we be using instead? Morbid curiosity trumping a plonking,

Re: [Python-ideas] Proposal for default character representation

2016-10-12 Thread Brendan Barnwell
On 2016-10-12 18:56, Mikhail V wrote: Please don't mix the readability and personal habit, which previuos repliers seems to do as well. Those two things has nothing to do with each other. You keep saying this, but it's quite incorrect. The usage of decimal notation is itself just a

Re: [Python-ideas] Proposal for default character representation

2016-10-12 Thread Mikhail V
On 13 October 2016 at 01:50, Chris Angelico wrote: > On Thu, Oct 13, 2016 at 10:09 AM, Mikhail V wrote: >> On 12 October 2016 at 23:58, Danilo J. S. Bellini >> wrote: >> >>> Decimal notation is hardly >>> readable when we're

Re: [Python-ideas] Proposal for default character representation

2016-10-12 Thread Chris Angelico
On Thu, Oct 13, 2016 at 10:09 AM, Mikhail V wrote: > On 12 October 2016 at 23:58, Danilo J. S. Bellini > wrote: > >> Decimal notation is hardly >> readable when we're dealing with stuff designed in base 2 (e.g. due to the >> visual separation of

Re: [Python-ideas] Proposal for default character representation

2016-10-12 Thread Mikhail V
On 12 October 2016 at 23:50, Thomas Nyberg wrote: > Since when was decimal notation "standard"? Depends on what planet do you live. I live on planet Earth. And you? > opposite. For unicode representations, byte notation seems standard. How does this make it a good idea?

Re: [Python-ideas] Proposal for default character representation

2016-10-12 Thread Mikhail V
On 12 October 2016 at 23:58, Danilo J. S. Bellini wrote: > Decimal notation is hardly > readable when we're dealing with stuff designed in base 2 (e.g. due to the > visual separation of distinct bytes). Hmm what keeps you from separateting the logical units to be

Re: [Python-ideas] Proposal for default character representation

2016-10-12 Thread Mikhail V
Forgot to reply to all, duping my mesage... On 12 October 2016 at 23:48, M.-A. Lemburg wrote: > Hmm, in Python3, I get: > s = "абв.txt" s > 'абв.txt' I posted output with Python2 and Windows 7 BTW , In Windows 10 'print' won't work in cmd console at all by default

Re: [Python-ideas] Proposal for default character representation

2016-10-12 Thread Danilo J. S. Bellini
I'm -1 on this. Just type "0431 unicode" on your favorite search engine. U+0431 is the codepoint, not whatever digits 0x431 has in decimal. That's a tradition and something external to Python. As a related concern, I think using decimal/octal on raw data is a terrible idea (e.g. On Linux, I

Re: [Python-ideas] Proposal for default character representation

2016-10-12 Thread M.-A. Lemburg
On 12.10.2016 23:33, Mikhail V wrote: > Hello all, > > I want to share my thoughts about syntax improvements regarding > character representation in Python. > I am new to the list so if such a discussion or a PEP exists already, > please let me know. > > So in short: > > Currently Python uses

Re: [Python-ideas] Proposal for default character representation

2016-10-12 Thread Thomas Nyberg
On 10/12/2016 05:33 PM, Mikhail V wrote: Hello all, Hello! New to this list so not sure if I can reply here... :) Now printing it we get: u'\u0430\u0431\u0432.txt' By "printing it", do you mean "this is the string representation"? I would presume printing it would show characters