Michael Spencer wrote:
[...]
Allowing quotation, almost anything is possible, e.g.,
Fred! Where Guido had had had, Had had had had had. Had had had a
better
effect on the reader
or simply
fred, where Guido had had had had had had had had had had, had a better
effect on the reader
Fredrik Lundh wrote:
Rocco Moretti wrote:
Insert punctuation capitalization to make the following a correct and
coherent (if not a little tourtured).
fred where guido had had had had had had had had had had had a better
effect on the reader
punctuation, including quote marks, I
On Wed, 07 Dec 2005 12:33:07 -0600 in comp.lang.python, Rocco Moretti
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
[...]
fred where guido had had had had had had had had had had had a better
effect on the reader
I've seen this before as
bill had had had but will had had had had had had or had had been
correct
Steven D'Aprano [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo.
S
P
O
I
L
E
R
S
P
A
C
E
(Good grief, I've not done that in *years*.)
Buffalo from the city of Buffalo, which are intimidated by buffalo
from Buffalo, also intimidate buffalo from
François Pinard [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
[AMK]
You may suggest that I should process my e-mail more promptly.
No, I'm not suggesting you how to work, no more that I would accept that
you force me into working your way. If any of us wants to force the
other to speak through robots, that one
The actress Margaret Anglin left this note in the dressing froom of
another actress:
'Margaret Anglin says Mrs. Fiske is the best actress in America.'
Mrs. Fiske added two commas and returned the note: 'Margaret Anglin,
says Mrs. Fiske, is the best actress in America.'
Or this, from a George
François Pinard wrote:
[A.M. Kuchling]
On Tue, 6 Dec 2005 00:05:38 -0500,
François Pinard [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
It's a relatively recent phenomenon that maintainers go berzerk, foaming
at the mouth over forms, borders, colors, and various other mania! :-)
It's largely to
On Mon, 05 Dec 2005 19:36:58 -0800, BartlebyScrivener wrote:
Well, that might be asking a bit too much of the programmers, who
perhaps don't exactly enjoy mucking about in the lowlands of English
grammar and syntax.
Oh come on now! For the kinds of minds who enjoy obfuscated C or Perl,
Steven D'Aprano wrote:
Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo.
Did you mean: Badger badger Badger badger badger badger Badger badger Mushroom!
Mushroom!
/F
--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
On Mon, 05 Dec 2005 21:05:46 -0800, rurpy wrote:
If one is required to buy a book to use free software,
One is *not* required to buy a book to use free software. It isn't
compulsory.
it is not really free, is it?
What part of you may use this FREE software for FREE is too difficult
for you
This is why things need to go into public trackers, or wiki pages.
François Whatever means the maintainer wants to fill his preservation
François needs, he is free to use them. The problem arises when the
François maintainer wants imposing his own work methods on others.
On 12/7/05, Steven D'Aprano [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
But none of them are the cost of Python, which is free. It really isn't a
scam, nobody is going to come knocking at your door with a surprise bill
for using Python.
Well, there is the PSU's Spanish Inquisition division. Last week
they barged
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Real people have real names. Using your real name on the net makes
you less virtual to the people you communicate with.
on the other hand,
http://www.python.org/doc/Humor.html#timbot2
/F
--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Tony Meyer wrote:
This makes no sense. If you want to complain about Python, try a
Perl list. Why would a list dedicated to discussion about/help with
a language need complaints about the language?
Huh?!? Usually people complain because they need help or feel
that things can be
Fredrik Lundh wrote:
Steven D'Aprano wrote:
Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo.
Did you mean: Badger badger Badger badger badger badger Badger badger
Mushroom! Mushroom!
Thank you, I really needed that stuck in my head. :)
--
On 2005-12-07, Steven D'Aprano [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On Mon, 05 Dec 2005 19:36:58 -0800, BartlebyScrivener wrote:
Well, that might be asking a bit too much of the programmers, who
perhaps don't exactly enjoy mucking about in the lowlands of English
grammar and syntax.
Oh come on now! For
Steven D'Aprano [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On Mon, 05 Dec 2005 19:36:58 -0800, BartlebyScrivener wrote:
Well, that might be asking a bit too much of the programmers, who
perhaps don't exactly enjoy mucking about in the lowlands of English
grammar and syntax.
Oh come on now! For the
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
FWIW I find Python's docs to be OK at best, with some horrible
parts, and a lot of mediochre to poor parts.
I myself have no big beef about Python's docs, but you're certainly
not the first one to complain about them. Xah Lee rants very
heavily against the quality
On Wed, 07 Dec 2005 07:50:14 -0800, Alex Martelli wrote:
Steven D'Aprano [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On Mon, 05 Dec 2005 19:36:58 -0800, BartlebyScrivener wrote:
Well, that might be asking a bit too much of the programmers, who
perhaps don't exactly enjoy mucking about in the lowlands of
On Wed, 07 Dec 2005 15:29:07 +, Grant Edwards wrote:
On 2005-12-07, Steven D'Aprano [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On Mon, 05 Dec 2005 19:36:58 -0800, BartlebyScrivener wrote:
Well, that might be asking a bit too much of the programmers, who
perhaps don't exactly enjoy mucking about in the
On Wed, 07 Dec 2005 11:45:04 +0100, Fredrik Lundh wrote:
Steven D'Aprano wrote:
Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo.
Did you mean: Badger badger Badger badger badger badger Badger badger
Mushroom! Mushroom!
Er... no, I can't parse that. I suffered a Too Much
Steven D'Aprano wrote:
S
P
O
I
L
E
R
S
P
A
C
E
Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo.
Buffalo from the city of Buffalo, which are intimidated by buffalo
from Buffalo, also intimidate buffalo from Buffalo.
And to do a small simplification on it,
Steven D'Aprano wrote:
S
P
O
I
L
E
R
S
P
A
C
E
Buffalo from the city of Buffalo, which are intimidated by buffalo
from Buffalo, also intimidate buffalo from Buffalo.
Did you mean: Bagder from the city of Badger, who is pestered by
a badger from Badger, also pesters badger from
Steven D'Aprano wrote:
On Wed, 07 Dec 2005 11:45:04 +0100, Fredrik Lundh wrote:
Did you mean: Badger badger Badger badger badger badger Badger badger
Mushroom! Mushroom!
Er... no, I can't parse that. I suffered a Too Much Recursion error about
the third Badger (I only have a limited
Steven D'Aprano wrote:
Did you mean: Badger badger Badger badger badger badger Badger badger
Mushroom! Mushroom!
Er... no, I can't parse that. I suffered a Too Much Recursion error about
the third Badger (I only have a limited runtime stack).
I asked my missus about this one, she being
Steven I'm always amazed and perplexed at how hot-shot programmers who
Steven would never forget a colon or a brace can be so slap-dash about
Steven using proper punctuation and grammar in English.
That's because there's no equivalent to a compiler or interpreter preventing
them from
One of my favourite examples of obfuscated English is this grammatically
correct sentence:
Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo.
The punctuation is important.
Reminds me of this old classic:
Insert punctuation capitalization to make the following a correct and
Rocco Moretti wrote:
Insert punctuation capitalization to make the following a correct and
coherent (if not a little tourtured).
fred where guido had had had had had had had had had had had a better
effect on the reader
punctuation, including quote marks, I presume?
it's not time to bring
In article [EMAIL PROTECTED],
Rocco Moretti [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Reminds me of this old classic:
Insert punctuation capitalization to make the following a correct and
coherent (if not a little tourtured).
fred where guido had had had had had had had had had had had a better
effect on
Fredrik Lundh wrote:
Rocco Moretti wrote:
Insert punctuation capitalization to make the following a correct and
coherent (if not a little tourtured).
fred where guido had had had had had had had had had had had a better
effect on the reader
punctuation, including quote marks, I
Fredrik Lundh [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Er... no, I can't parse that. I suffered a Too Much Recursion error about
the third Badger (I only have a limited runtime stack).
I always loved the demonstration that English requires backtracking:
The old man the ship.
mike
--
Mike Meyer [EMAIL
On Wed, 07 Dec 2005 17:15:03 -0500, Mike Meyer wrote:
Fredrik Lundh [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Er... no, I can't parse that. I suffered a Too Much Recursion error about
the third Badger (I only have a limited runtime stack).
I always loved the demonstration that English requires
On Thu, 08 Dec 2005 12:19:13 +1100,
Steven D'Aprano [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Linguists call that garden path sentences, because they lead the
reader/listener up the garden path.
Here are some more examples:
[ examples snipped ]
And the ever-popular, ever-ambiguous:
Women can fish.
Are you telling us you learned C#, smalltalk, lisp, C, perl,
whatever, from 1 website only, without looking at any books, without
spending any money on IDEs or any software? Cause that's what you're
asking here.
rurpy For perl and C, yes, that's (close to) what I'm
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Are you telling us you learned C#, smalltalk, lisp, C, perl,
whatever, from 1 website only, without looking at any books, without
spending any money on IDEs or any software? Cause that's what you're
asking here.
rurpy For perl and C, yes, that's
On Mon, 05 Dec 2005 20:56:50 GMT,
Bengt Richter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
A little more effort could present the referrer page with clickable
paragraphs and other elements, to zoom in to what the commenter
wants to comment on. And an automatic diff could be prepared for
editors, and
Hmm, I though he explained it:
1) Not using your real name.
2) A yahoo, aol, or hotmail address.
In the ancient and hallowed (by net standards) history of Usenet, both
of these (particularly the first one) have been pretty good predictors
of
On Tue, 6 Dec 2005 00:05:38 -0500,
François Pinard [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
It's a relatively recent phenomenon that maintainers go berzerk, foaming
at the mouth over forms, borders, colors, and various other mania! :-)
It's largely to ensure that the ideas aren't lost. E-mail sits
In article [EMAIL PROTECTED],
Grant Edwards [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On 2005-12-06, Aahz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
In article [EMAIL PROTECTED],
Grant Edwards [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Hmm, I though he explained it:
1) Not using your real name.
2) A yahoo, aol, or hotmail address.
In the
[A.M. Kuchling]
On Tue, 6 Dec 2005 00:05:38 -0500,
François Pinard [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
It's a relatively recent phenomenon that maintainers go berzerk, foaming
at the mouth over forms, borders, colors, and various other mania! :-)
It's largely to ensure that the ideas aren't
François Pinard [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
You may suggest that I should process my e-mail more promptly.
No, I'm not suggesting you how to work, no more that I would accept
that you force me into working your way. If any of us wants to force
the other to speak through robots, that one is
Gee, I wonder if I typed sort into the search box on the wiki it
might turn up something useful? Well, what do you know?
2 results of about 4571 pages. (0.19 seconds)
1. HowTo/Sorting
2. SortingListsOfDictionaries
rurpy Are we talking about the same
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Sure, feel free to point of flaws. Just don't let that be the only way you
contribute. Over time the value of your criticism (valid or not) will be
discounted.
That is quite interesting, if it is true.
--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Sure, feel free to point of flaws. Just don't let that be the only
way you contribute. Over time the value of your criticism (valid or
not) will be discounted.
bonono That is quite interesting, if it is true.
Let me rephrase. The discounting I referred to is largely
It's tough to put yourself in the shoes of a
novice, so it's tough to write documentation that would be helpful for
new
users. It's extremely helpful if new users submit documentation
patches as
they figure things out. It's generally unnecessary to write large
tomes.
Often all that's needed is
In article [EMAIL PROTECTED],
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Tim Peters? Read it no matter what the subject says.
A-men!
--
Aahz ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) * http://www.pythoncraft.com/
Don't listen to schmucks on USENET when making legal decisions. Hire
yourself a competent
In article [EMAIL PROTECTED],
BartlebyScrivener [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Yes, well, regardless of your beef with the person who complained about
documentation, I respectfully submit that it is not so easy to help out
with documentation. I'm a professional writer and author with a keen
interest in
Go to Python.org
Click on DEVELOPERS
The lead sentence says:
Contributors and potential contributors should read Documenting Python,
which describes in details the conventions and markup used in creating
and maintaining the Python documentation. The CVS trunk version is the
recommended version
BartlebyScrivener wrote:
...a reasonable description of why he felt he had to learn LaTeX ...
Did I miss something?
At the bottom of most pages of the python docs is a link to:
About the Python Documentation
where it says (among other things):
If you find specific errors in this
Thank you. I shall try that the next time I see something in the
documentation for beginners. Generally the Python docs are quite good,
in my opinion. I was merely taking issue with the poster who suggested
that Python novices and nonprogrammers should complain less and
contribute more. It's not
On 5 Dec 2005 10:53:36 -0800, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Aahz) wrote:
In article [EMAIL PROTECTED],
BartlebyScrivener [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Yes, well, regardless of your beef with the person who complained about
documentation, I respectfully submit that it is not so easy to help out
with
BartlebyScrivener [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Go to Python.org
Click on DEVELOPERS
The lead sentence says:
Contributors and potential contributors should read Documenting Python,
which describes in details the conventions and markup used in creating
and maintaining the Python
BartlebyScrivener [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Thank you. I shall try that the next time I see something in the
documentation for beginners. Generally the Python docs are quite good,
in my opinion. I was merely taking issue with the poster who suggested
that Python novices and nonprogrammers
Tony Meyer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
But, the standard responce of don't complain, fix it yourself is
bogus too. There are plenty of people on this list willing to sing
python's
praises, for balance, there should be people willing to openly
point out
python's flaws.
This makes no
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--snip--
rurpy Well, I'm not totally sure but I think I would be willing to a
rurpy least try contributing something. A large amount of the time I
rurpy waste when writing Python programs is directly attributable to
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
The problem with marching in here and saying fix the docs is that you are
an unknown quantity (I certainly don't recognize your email address and as
far as I've seen you never sign your posts.
I don't believe my name, etnic heritage, gender, age, employer or
Fredrik Lundh wrote:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I don't believe my name, etnic heritage, gender, age, employer or
school, or part of the world I live in, have any bearing on the
contents of my postings.
perhaps not, but it's not what you think that's important here. and I sure
cannot
bs == BartlebyScrivener [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
bs I'm a professional writer and author with a keen interest in open
bs source, but the moment you look to contribute or try to help with
bs the documentation you are asked to learn LaTex or DocBook, which,
bs I'm sorry, I am not
Let me repeat this for the umpteenth time: You do not have to learn LaTeX to
contribute to docs.
Noted. And thanks again to all who responded. The tone of this whole
thing is really antagonistic in parts, which is unfortunate. I'll offer
my services through the proper channels, because I
On 2005-12-05, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I don't believe my name, etnic heritage, gender, age, employer
or school, or part of the world I live in, have any bearing on
the contents of my postings.
perhaps not, but it's not what you think that's important
here. and I sure
Grant Edwards wrote:
The correlation isn't as high as it used to be, now that hiding
behind silly nicknames has apparently become socially acceptable
in other venues (web forums and boards and whatnot).
on the other hand, hanging out on web forums and boards is in it-
self a good predictor.
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Gee, I wonder if I typed sort into the search box on the wiki it might
turn up something useful? Well, what do you know?
2 results of about 4571 pages. (0.19 seconds)
1. HowTo/Sorting
2. SortingListsOfDictionaries
BartlebyScrivener wrote:
Let me repeat this for the umpteenth time: You do not have to learn LaTeX to
contribute to docs.
Noted. And thanks again to all who responded. The tone of this whole
thing is really antagonistic in parts, which is unfortunate. I'll offer
my services through the
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Let me repeat this for the umpteenth time: You do not have to learn
LaTeX to contribute to docs. Submit plain text. One of us with some
LaTeX knowledge will do the markup. Content is the hard part. Markup
is nothing, so don't let it be a barrier for you.
More than
François Pinard [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Let me repeat this for the umpteenth time: You do not have to learn
LaTeX to contribute to docs. Submit plain text. One of us with
some LaTeX knowledge will do the markup. Content is the hard part.
Markup is nothing, so don't let it be a barrier
François More than LaTeX, the main frozener is when people in charge
François tell you to use bug trackers to speak to them.
Understood. I wish either a) SourceForge supported email interaction with
their trackers or b) someone would finish off the Roundup issue tracker
Paul For example, writing a good doc patch for urllib2 would mean
Paul checking RFC 2616(?) against the urllib2 code to see what parts of
Paul the RFC got implemented and what parts didn't. It might also mean
Paul comparing urllib2 with other libraries like LWP (Perl) or whatever
François Pinard [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
More than LaTeX, the main frozener is when people in charge tell you
to use bug trackers to speak to them.
This is like standing up with someone, having a conversation,
... in which you informally ask them to do something...
and your
partner
The solution is clear: the distro maintainers should require that all
code contributions must come with good docs. When a code submission
comes in, the distro maintainers should critically review the
accompanying docs, note any shortcomings and constructively ask for
improvements from the
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Sounds like a subject matter expert is needed here, not a garden variety
tech writer or Python programmer. Documentation of esoteric stuff requires,
well, esoteric knowledge.
Yes, that's what I mean; coding a library module for an esoteric
function requires that same
Paul Rubin wrote:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Sounds like a subject matter expert is needed here, not a garden variety
tech writer or Python programmer. Documentation of esoteric stuff requires,
well, esoteric knowledge.
Yes, that's what I mean; coding a library module for an esoteric
Or, better still, by an accomplished writer who has access to the code's
author. This was indeed my experience in writing the docs for
previously
undocumented modules. The author was happy to help me by answering
questions, and this did make the docs better than they'd otherwise have
been.
Now
Steve Holden [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Or, better still, by an accomplished writer who has access to the
code's author. This was indeed my experience in writing the docs for
previously undocumented modules. The author was happy to help me by
answering questions, and this did make the docs
In article [EMAIL PROTECTED],
Grant Edwards [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Hmm, I though he explained it:
1) Not using your real name.
2) A yahoo, aol, or hotmail address.
In the ancient and hallowed (by net standards) history of Usenet, both
of these (particularly the first one) have been
Paul Rubin http://[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Steve Holden [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Or, better still, by an accomplished writer who has access to the
code's author. This was indeed my experience in writing the docs for
previously undocumented modules. The author was happy to help me by
[Ben Finney]
please study this form, carefully read the small print, fill it
properly and send the yellow copy at this address.
... so that it can go with all the other requests I get at various
times from various people.
If he wants pink forms with blue borders, let him grant himself with
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Redhat's Fedora project seems to have a fairly well developed
program for recruiting and encouraging writers.
Frankly I haven't been that impressed with the Fedora docs I've seen.
The LDP docs have generally been better. Maybe I'm looking at the
wrong Fedora docs.
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
--snip--
If you prefer the latest documentation, bookmark this page:
http://www.python.org/dev/doc/devel/index.html
Thanks I will keep that in mind. But the obvious risk is that it
will refer to
BartlebyScrivener [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
The solution is clear: the distro maintainers should require that all
code contributions must come with good docs.
Well, that might be asking a bit too much of the programmers, who
perhaps don't exactly enjoy mucking about in the lowlands of English
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
If one is required to buy a book to use free software, it is not
really free, is it?
If one is required to buy a computer to use free software, is it free?
You should well know that cost and freedom are orthogonal.
--
\I got fired from my job the
Aahz wrote:
To use a Panix in-joke, how old are you, anyway?
I've been on the Net for more than fifteen years, and while this canard
about real names gets trotted out from time to time, it's quite clear
that many many people have been active on the Net *and* taken seriously
using names
On 2005-12-06, Aahz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
In article [EMAIL PROTECTED],
Grant Edwards [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Hmm, I though he explained it:
1) Not using your real name.
2) A yahoo, aol, or hotmail address.
In the ancient and hallowed (by net standards) history of
Usenet, both of
Note that the updated version of this is at: http://wiki.python.org/
moin/HowTo/Sorting
rurpy http://wiki.python.org/...
rurpy Hmmm, lets see, how about Libraries?
rurpy Nope, don't see anything that looks like it might be about sort
rurpy there...
rurpy How about
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Gee, I wonder if I typed sort into the search box on the wiki it might
turn up something useful? Well, what do you know?
2 results of about 4571 pages. (0.19 seconds)
1. HowTo/Sorting
2. SortingListsOfDictionaries
Are we talking about the same Search
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Gee, I wonder if I typed sort into the search box on the wiki it might
turn up something useful? Well, what do you know?
2 results of about 4571 pages. (0.19 seconds)
1. HowTo/Sorting
2. SortingListsOfDictionaries
Are we talking
Peter Hansen wrote:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
snip
Are we talking about the same Search box (at the top right of the
wiki page, and labeled search? Well, yes I did enter sort and
got (as I said) a long list of archived maillist postings.
No, he's talking about
But, the standard responce of don't complain, fix it yourself is
bogus too. There are plenty of people on this list willing to sing
python's
praises, for balance, there should be people willing to openly
point out
python's flaws.
This makes no sense. If you want to complain about
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