On Sun, Jul 31, 2016 at 10:05 PM, Rustom Mody wrote:
> All starts with the disorder in the middle-east and a whole lot of arbitrary
> lines
> drawn there
> [Going backward in time]
> - A line drawn in space called ‘Israel’
> - Based on a line drawn in time called the
On Monday, August 1, 2016 at 8:23:49 AM UTC+5:30, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
> On Sat, 30 Jul 2016 03:46 pm, Rustom Mody wrote:
>
> > Lots of questions... I would guess rhetorical.
>
> They weren't rhetorical.
>
> You've made a lot of claims about the origins of computer science, and I've
>
On Monday, August 1, 2016 at 9:12:00 AM UTC+5:30, Paul Rubin wrote:
> Steven D'Aprano writes:
> > If Intuitionism influenced computer science, where is the evidence of this?
> > Where are the Intuitionist computer scientists?
>
> Pretty much all of them, I thought. E.g. programs
Yeah…
Saying
Steven D'Aprano writes:
> If Intuitionism influenced computer science, where is the evidence of this?
> Where are the Intuitionist computer scientists?
Pretty much all of them, I thought. E.g. programs in typed lambda
calculus amount to intuitionistic proofs of the
On Sat, 30 Jul 2016 03:46 pm, Rustom Mody wrote:
> Lots of questions... I would guess rhetorical.
They weren't rhetorical.
You've made a lot of claims about the origins of computer science, and I've
questioned some of your statements. Answers would be appreciated.
> However under the
On Thursday, June 30, 2016 at 11:33:58 PM UTC+5:30, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
> On Fri, 1 Jul 2016 01:28 am, Rustom Mody wrote:
>
> > On Thursday, June 30, 2016 at 1:55:18 PM UTC+5:30, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
> >
> >> you state that Turing "believes in souls" and that he "wishes to
> >> put the soul
On Thursday, June 30, 2016 at 1:55:18 PM UTC+5:30, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
> On Thursday 30 June 2016 12:13, Rustom Mody wrote:
>
> > In particular the question: "Are real numbers really real?" is where it
> > starts off... http://blog.languager.org/2015/03/cs-history-0.html
>
> The pre-history
Rustom Mody :
> There are other more reasonable non-religious non-dualistic notions of
> soul possible:
Software engineers should have an easy time understanding what a soul
is: a sufficiently sophisticated software system in execution. I'd say
the minimum requirement for
On Thursday, June 30, 2016 at 11:33:58 PM UTC+5:30, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
> On Fri, 1 Jul 2016 01:28 am, Rustom Mody wrote:
>
> > On Thursday, June 30, 2016 at 1:55:18 PM UTC+5:30, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
> >
> >> you state that Turing "believes in souls" and that he "wishes to
> >> put the soul
On Fri, 1 Jul 2016 01:28 am, Rustom Mody wrote:
> On Thursday, June 30, 2016 at 1:55:18 PM UTC+5:30, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
>
>> you state that Turing "believes in souls" and that he "wishes to
>> put the soul into the machine" -- what do his religious beliefs have to
>> do with his work?
>
>
On Thu, 30 Jun 2016 08:11 pm, Andreas Rc3b6hler wrote:
>
>
> On 30.06.2016 10:24, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
>> On Thursday 30 June 2016 12:13, Rustom Mody wrote:
>>
>>
>> The irrational and emotional psychological forces that inspire
>> mathematicians can make interesting reading, but they have no
On Thursday, June 30, 2016 at 1:55:18 PM UTC+5:30, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
> you state that Turing "believes in souls" and that he "wishes to
> put the soul into the machine" -- what do his religious beliefs have to do
> with
> his work?
Bizarre question -- becomes more patently ridiculous
On Thu, 30 Jun 2016 09:24:43 +0300, Marko Rauhamaa wrote:
> Lawrence D’Oliveiro :
>> Every time somebody tries to point to an example of a “topic that is
>> beyond the reach of science”, it seems to get knocked over eventually.
>
> Of course, an experiment trumps theory,
On 30.06.2016 11:42, Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote:
On Thursday, June 30, 2016 at 9:31:29 PM UTC+12, Andreas Röhler wrote:
Science is not about believing, but about models.
The nice thing about science is, it works even if you don’t believe in it.
Thats it!
--
On 30.06.2016 10:24, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
On Thursday 30 June 2016 12:13, Rustom Mody wrote:
The irrational and emotional psychological forces that inspire mathematicians
can make interesting reading, but they have no relevance in deciding who is
write or wrong.
Hmm, so math is not
On Thursday, June 30, 2016 at 9:31:29 PM UTC+12, Andreas Röhler wrote:
> Science is not about believing, but about models.
The nice thing about science is, it works even if you don’t believe in it.
--
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
On 30.06.2016 10:24, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
On Thursday 30 June 2016 12:13, Rustom Mody wrote:
[ ... ]
Besides, the whole point of science is to develop objective, rational reasons
to believe things.
Science is not about believing, but about models.
Believing is important to make the career
On Thursday 30 June 2016 17:16, Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote:
> The definition of “random” is “unknowable”.
It really isn't.
What Julius Caesar had for breakfast on the day after his 15th birthday is
unknowable.
To the best of our knowledge, the collapse of a quantum wave function is
random.
On Thursday 30 June 2016 12:13, Rustom Mody wrote:
> OTOH Computer Science HAPPENED because mathematicians kept hotly disputing
> for more than ½ a century as to what is legitimate math and what is
> theology/mysticism/etc:
I really don't think so. Computer science happened because people
On Thursday, June 30, 2016 at 7:32:55 PM UTC+12, Paul Rubin wrote:
> Lawrence D’Oliveiro writes:
>> The definition of “random” is “unknowable”. So all you are stating is
>> a tautology.
>
> What? No. You read a bunch of bits out of the device and you want to
> know whether they are
Lawrence D’Oliveiro writes:
> The definition of “random” is “unknowable”. So all you are stating is
> a tautology.
What? No. You read a bunch of bits out of the device and you want to
know whether they are Kolmogorov-random (you can look up what that means
if you're not
On Thursday, June 30, 2016 at 7:13:36 PM UTC+12, Andreas Röhler wrote:
> On 30.06.2016 03:33, Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote:
>
>> So you see, like it or not, we are drawn to the conclusion that there
>> *was* indeed something before our particular Big Bang.
>
> That's linear like the Big Bang
On Thursday, June 30, 2016 at 6:57:41 PM UTC+12, Paul Rubin wrote:
>> Every time somebody tries to point to an example of a “topic that is
>> beyond the reach of science”, it seems to get knocked over eventually.
>
> Generate a sequence of "random" bits from your favorite physical source
>
On 30.06.2016 03:33, Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote:
So you see, like it or not, we are drawn to the conclusion that there *was*
indeed something before our particular Big Bang.
That's linear like the Big Bang theorie. What about assuming something
beyond our notion of time and space, unknown
> Every time somebody tries to point to an example of a “topic that is
> beyond the reach of science”, it seems to get knocked over eventually.
Generate a sequence of "random" bits from your favorite physical source
(radioactive decay, quantum entanglement, or whatever). Is the sequence
really
Gregory Ewing :
> Marko Rauhamaa wrote:
>> By the time the event horizon hits Tim at the speed of light, Tim will
>> have received all of our Universe's signals at an ever accelerating
>> frequency and increasing power. He will have seen the End of the World
>> before
On Thursday, June 30, 2016 at 11:54:54 AM UTC+5:30, Marko Rauhamaa wrote:
> Lawrence D’Oliveiro :
> > Every time somebody tries to point to an example of a “topic that is
> > beyond the reach of science”, it seems to get knocked over eventually.
>
> Of course, an experiment trumps theory, always.
Lawrence D’Oliveiro :
> Every time somebody tries to point to an example of a “topic that is
> beyond the reach of science”, it seems to get knocked over eventually.
Of course, an experiment trumps theory, always.
Marko
--
Marko Rauhamaa wrote:
By the time the event horizon hits Tim at the speed of light, Tim will
have received all of our Universe's signals at an ever accelerating
frequency and increasing power. He will have seen the End of the World
before leaving it.
I don't think that's right. From the point
On Thu, Jun 30, 2016 at 12:13 PM, Rustom Mody wrote:
> ... hotly disputing for more than ½ a century...
You keep using that character. Is it just to show off that you can? I
was always taught to match the style of the rest of the sentence, so
this would be "half a
On Thursday, June 30, 2016 at 7:03:30 AM UTC+5:30, Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote:
> On Wednesday, June 29, 2016 at 10:55:03 PM UTC+12, Marko Rauhamaa wrote:
> > No, the fundamental question here is whether it makes scientific sense
> > to speculate about topics that are beyond the reach of science.
On Wednesday, June 29, 2016 at 10:55:03 PM UTC+12, Marko Rauhamaa wrote:
> No, the fundamental question here is whether it makes scientific sense
> to speculate about topics that are beyond the reach of science. Few
> scientists speculate about what went on before the Big Bang, for
> example.
On
On Wed, Jun 29, 2016, at 05:35, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
> Although their perspectives are very different, neither is "more
> right" than the other.
I think usually the idea that there are "no privileged frames of
reference" doesn't go so far as to include ones from which it is
impossible to send
Steven D'Aprano :
> There's a common myth going around that black holes take an infinite
> amount of time to form,
That appears to be the case. (Identical discussion points here: http://astronomy.stackexchange.com/questions/2441/does-matter-accumulat
On Sunday 26 June 2016 09:40, Gregory Ewing wrote:
> Marko Rauhamaa wrote:
>> pdora...@pas-de-pub-merci.mac.com (Pierre-Alain Dorange):
>>
>>>Near a black hole 3.7 seconds can last an infinite time...
>>
>> Which phenomenon prevents a black hole from ever forming. Yet
>> astronomers keep
(sorry for the premature previous post)
Random832 :
> All objects, not just black holes, have those properties. The point
> here is that we are in fact observing those properties of an object
> that is not yet (and never will be) a black hole in our frame of
> reference.
Random832 :
> All objects, not just black holes, have those properties. The point
> here is that we are in fact observing those properties of an object
> that is not yet (and never will be) a black hole in our frame of
> reference.
A physicist once clarified to me that an
On Tue, 28 Jun 2016 11:39 pm, Random832 wrote:
> On Sun, Jun 26, 2016, at 22:59, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
>> We have no way of seeing what goes on past the black hole's event
>> horizon, since light cannot escape. But we can still see *some*
>> properties of black holes, even through their event
On Sun, Jun 26, 2016, at 22:59, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
> We have no way of seeing what goes on past the black hole's event
> horizon, since light cannot escape. But we can still see *some*
> properties of black holes, even through their event horizon: their
> mass, any electric charge they may
On Tuesday 28 June 2016 16:12, Gregory Ewing wrote:
> Rustom Mody wrote:
>> I said that for the Haskell list [0..]
>>
>> [0..] ++ [-1] == [0..]
>>
>> He said (in effect) yes that -1 would not be detectable but its still there!
>
> The code to generate it is there, but it will never
> be
On Tuesday, June 28, 2016 at 11:42:29 AM UTC+5:30, Gregory Ewing wrote:
> Rustom Mody wrote:
> > I said that for the Haskell list [0..]
> >
> > [0..] ++ [-1] == [0..]
> >
> > He said (in effect) yes that -1 would not be detectable but its still there!
>
> The code to generate it is there, but
Gregory Ewing :
> Marko Rauhamaa wrote:
>> We cannot get any information on black holes proper because black holes
>> cannot come into existence according to the very theory that predicts
>> black holes. It will take infinitely long for an event horizon to form.
>
>
Marko Rauhamaa wrote:
We cannot get any information on black holes proper because black holes
cannot come into existence according to the very theory that predicts
black holes. It will take infinitely long for an event horizon to form.
Only in some frames of reference.
By your reasoning,
Rustom Mody wrote:
I said that for the Haskell list [0..]
[0..] ++ [-1] == [0..]
He said (in effect) yes that -1 would not be detectable but its still there!
The code to generate it is there, but it will never
be executed, so the compiler is entitled to optimise
it away. :-)
He may have a
Rustom Mody :
> On Monday, June 27, 2016 at 7:42:26 PM UTC+5:30, Marko Rauhamaa wrote:
>> I'm a formalist.
>
> Well then formalism is semantics-free: What matters it if an argument
> is theological or scientific as long as it is (internally) consistent?
That's what I'm
On Monday, June 27, 2016 at 7:42:26 PM UTC+5:30, Marko Rauhamaa wrote:
> Rustom Mody :
>
> > On Monday, June 27, 2016 at 7:16:03 PM UTC+5:30, Marko Rauhamaa wrote:
> >> Georg Cantor would probably be with your colleague, but then, Georg
> >> Cantor was not a scientist.
> >
> > I'm mystified
> >
>
Rustom Mody :
> On Monday, June 27, 2016 at 7:16:03 PM UTC+5:30, Marko Rauhamaa wrote:
>> Georg Cantor would probably be with your colleague, but then, Georg
>> Cantor was not a scientist.
>
> I'm mystified
>
> Earlier (I thought) you were on the Platonist = {Cantor,
On Monday, June 27, 2016 at 7:16:03 PM UTC+5:30, Marko Rauhamaa wrote:
> Rustom Mody :
>
> > I am reminded of an argument I once had with a colleague about
> > infinite, lazy data-structures
> >
> > I said that for the Haskell list [0..]
> >
> > [0..] ++ [-1] == [0..]
>
> [...]
>
> > He said
Rustom Mody :
> I am reminded of an argument I once had with a colleague about
> infinite, lazy data-structures
>
> I said that for the Haskell list [0..]
>
> [0..] ++ [-1] == [0..]
[...]
> He said (in effect) yes that -1 would not be detectable but its still
> there!
> Thanks, I'm in the same position as you, except that I'm in the position
> where I need it use the result, and if it ever returns INF my function will
> blow up. But it doesn't look like that can happen.
>
Doesn't atan2 relies on the C lib math floating point library? At least
in CPython. I
On Monday, June 27, 2016 at 12:10:21 PM UTC+5:30, Marko Rauhamaa wrote:
> Steven D'Aprano :
>
> > Naive empirical falsification can, at best, be considered as a
> > best-practice rule: if you have no way of falsifying something even in
> > principle, then it's not scientific. But it doesn't
Steven D'Aprano :
> Naive empirical falsification can, at best, be considered as a
> best-practice rule: if you have no way of falsifying something even in
> principle, then it's not scientific. But it doesn't really give you
> much in the way of practical guidance. What
On Mon, 27 Jun 2016 09:08 am, Gregory Ewing wrote:
> Marko Rauhamaa wrote:
>>>The singularity being talked about there is an artifact of a
>>>particular coordinate system; the theory predicts that there is no
>>>*physical* singularity at the event horizon.
>>
>> That theory can't be tested even
Marko Rauhamaa wrote:
The singularity being talked about there is an artifact of a
particular coordinate system; the theory predicts that there is no
*physical* singularity at the event horizon.
That theory can't be tested even in principle, can it? Therefore, it is
not scientific.
It can in
Gregory Ewing :
> Marko Rauhamaa wrote:
>> Which phenomenon prevents a black hole from ever forming. Yet
>> astronomers keep telling us they are all over the place.
> Astronomers have observed objects whose behaviour is entirely
> consistent with the existence of
Marko Rauhamaa wrote:
pdora...@pas-de-pub-merci.mac.com (Pierre-Alain Dorange):
For a scientific point of view, right. But tell this to the one that
will be close to a blackhole ;-)
Then, you'd better consult a priest than a scientist.
But don't worry, you'll have an infinitely long time
Marko Rauhamaa wrote:
pdora...@pas-de-pub-merci.mac.com (Pierre-Alain Dorange):
Near a black hole 3.7 seconds can last an infinite time...
Which phenomenon prevents a black hole from ever forming. Yet
astronomers keep telling us they are all over the place.
Astronomers have observed
On 2016-06-26 00:15, Gregory Ewing wrote:
Steven D'Aprano wrote:
China has just announced a new supercomputer that is so fast it can run an
infinite loop in 3.7 seconds.
They're lying. It has to be NaN seconds.
If it was an Indian supercomputer, it would be naan seconds.
Sorry. :-)
--
Steven D'Aprano wrote:
China has just announced a new supercomputer that is so fast it can run an
infinite loop in 3.7 seconds.
They're lying. It has to be NaN seconds.
--
Greg
--
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
pdora...@pas-de-pub-merci.mac.com (Pierre-Alain Dorange):
> Marko Rauhamaa wrote:
>
>> Note that the "valid point of view for external observers" is the
>> only valid scientific point of view.
>
> For a scientific point of view, right. But tell this to the one that
> will be
Marko Rauhamaa wrote:
> Note that the "valid point of view for external observers" is the only
> valid scientific point of view.
For a scientific point of view, right. But tell this to the one that
will be close to a blackhole ;-)
--
Pierre-Alain Dorange Moof
alister writes:
> On Thu, 23 Jun 2016 15:39:43 +0100, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>
>> Steven D'Aprano writes:
>>
>>> On Thursday 23 June 2016 14:40, Dan Sommers wrote:
>>>
> Since x == y, the answer should be the same as for any
pdora...@pas-de-pub-merci.mac.com (Pierre-Alain Dorange):
> Steven D'Aprano wrote:
>> China has just announced a new supercomputer that is so fast it can
>> run an infinite loop in 3.7 seconds.
>
> Near a black hole 3.7 seconds can last an infinite time...
Which phenomenon
Steven D'Aprano wrote:
> > which infinity. There are many - some larger than others
>
> China has just announced a new supercomputer that is so fast it can run an
> infinite loop in 3.7 seconds.
Near a black hole 3.7 seconds can last an infinite time...
--
Pierre-Alain
Dan Sommers wrote:
> > Given:
> >
> > x = INF
> > y = INF
> > assert x == y
> >
> > there is a reason to pick atan2(y, x) = pi/4:
> >
> > Since x == y, the answer should be the same as for any other pair of x == y.
>
> When x == y == 0, then atan2(y, x) is 0.
This is
On Fri, 24 Jun 2016 01:04 am, alister wrote:
> which infinity. There are many - some larger than others
China has just announced a new supercomputer that is so fast it can run an
infinite loop in 3.7 seconds.
--
Steven
--
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
On Thu, 23 Jun 2016 15:39:43 +0100, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
> Steven D'Aprano writes:
>
>> On Thursday 23 June 2016 14:40, Dan Sommers wrote:
>>
Since x == y, the answer should be the same as for any other pair of
x == y.
>>>
>>> When x == y == 0,
Steven D'Aprano writes:
> On Thursday 23 June 2016 14:40, Dan Sommers wrote:
>
>>> Since x == y, the answer should be the same as for any other pair of x == y.
>>
>> When x == y == 0, then atan2(y, x) is 0.
I see just added noise by making the same comment
Steven D'Aprano writes:
> On Thu, 23 Jun 2016 05:17 am, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>
>> pdora...@pas-de-pub-merci.mac.com (Pierre-Alain Dorange) writes:
>>
>>> Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>>>
>>> math.atan2(INF, INF)
0.7853981633974483
I
On Thursday 23 June 2016 14:40, Dan Sommers wrote:
>> Since x == y, the answer should be the same as for any other pair of x == y.
>
> When x == y == 0, then atan2(y, x) is 0.
/s/any other pair of x == y/any other pair of x y except for zero/
:-P
Zero is exceptional in many ways.
--
Steve
On Thu, 23 Jun 2016 13:59:46 +1000, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
> Given:
>
> x = INF
> y = INF
> assert x == y
>
> there is a reason to pick atan2(y, x) = pi/4:
>
> Since x == y, the answer should be the same as for any other pair of x == y.
When x == y == 0, then atan2(y, x) is 0.
--
On Thu, 23 Jun 2016 05:17 am, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
> pdora...@pas-de-pub-merci.mac.com (Pierre-Alain Dorange) writes:
>
>> Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>>
>>> >>> math.atan2(INF, INF)
>>> 0.7853981633974483
>>>
>>> I would have expected NaN since atan2(INF, INF) could be
On Thursday, June 23, 2016 at 7:17:37 AM UTC+12, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
> The limit of atan2(x, x) is as you describe, but there is no reason to
> pick that one case.
It’s what’s called a “non-removable discontinuity”. The value you pick at that
point will be consistent with approaching it from
pdora...@pas-de-pub-merci.mac.com (Pierre-Alain Dorange) writes:
> Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>
>> >>> math.atan2(INF, INF)
>> 0.7853981633974483
>>
>> I would have expected NaN since atan2(INF, INF) could be thought of as
>> the limit of atan2(x, y) which could be any value
Ben Bacarisse wrote:
> >>> math.atan2(INF, INF)
> 0.7853981633974483
>
> I would have expected NaN since atan2(INF, INF) could be thought of as
> the limit of atan2(x, y) which could be any value in the range. And I'd
> have guessed atan2(0, 0) would have been NaN too
On Wed, Jun 22, 2016, at 11:34, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
> Steven D'Aprano writes:
> > I think that the only way it will return a NAN is if passed a NAN.
>
> That seems to be the case but I was a little surprised to find that
>
> >>> math.atan2(INF, INF)
>
Steven D'Aprano writes:
> On Wed, 22 Jun 2016 04:01 am, Pierre-Alain Dorange wrote:
>> I do not know under what circumstance atan2 can return NAN, atan2 taks 2
>> argument (y and x) and return the angle corresponding to y/x.
>> If x is 0.0, atan2 return 0.0 (do not try to
Steven D'Aprano wrote:
> py> math.atan2(NAN, 0)
> nan
>
> I think that the only way it will return a NAN is if passed a NAN.
yes of course if you pass an invalid argument (NAN is not a real value,
atan2 except coordinate x,y), the result would be invalid...
--
On Wed, 22 Jun 2016 04:32 am, Jussi Piitulainen wrote:
> pdora...@pas-de-pub-merci.mac.com (Pierre-Alain Dorange) writes:
>
>> Steven D'Aprano wrote:
>>
>>> Are there any circumstances where math.atan2(a, b) can return an
>>> infinity?
[...]
> I didn't see any mention of it
On Wed, 22 Jun 2016 04:01 am, Pierre-Alain Dorange wrote:
> Steven D'Aprano wrote:
>
>> Are there any circumstances where math.atan2(a, b) can return an
>> infinity?
>>
>> I know it will return a NAN under some circumstances.
>
> atan or atan2 can't return INFINITE, it
pdora...@pas-de-pub-merci.mac.com (Pierre-Alain Dorange) writes:
> Steven D'Aprano wrote:
>
>> Are there any circumstances where math.atan2(a, b) can return an infinity?
>>
>> I know it will return a NAN under some circumstances.
>
> atan or atan2 can't return INFINITE, it
Steven D'Aprano wrote:
> Are there any circumstances where math.atan2(a, b) can return an infinity?
>
> I know it will return a NAN under some circumstances.
atan or atan2 can't return INFINITE, it was the arc tangent of a value,
then arc tangent can only be between -PI
Are there any circumstances where math.atan2(a, b) can return an infinity?
I know it will return a NAN under some circumstances.
--
Steven
--
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
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