greg wrote:
> Arnaud Delobelle wrote:
>> But in the course of conversation I might refer to
>> Napoleon, meaning Napoleon Bonaparte (1769 - 1821) or Napoleon III (1808
>> - 1873).
>
> That's more like referring to the name 'Napoleon' in
> two different namespaces. The original binding still
> exis
Aaron Brady wrote:
I thought of another way Python's passing method could be
implemented. Parameters are passed as namespace-name pairs, and every
time a variable occurs, it's looked up in the namespace it's in. If
it's changed (concurrently) in the outer scope, a copy is made into
the inner s
Arnaud Delobelle wrote:
But in the course of conversation I might refer to
Napoleon, meaning Napoleon Bonaparte (1769 - 1821) or Napoleon III (1808
- 1873).
That's more like referring to the name 'Napoleon' in
two different namespaces. The original binding still
exists, you're just switching co
On Nov 10, 2008, at 2:30 PM, Aaron Brady wrote:
I agree with Terry that all calling is call-by-value, and Steven that
all calling is call-by-bit-flipping. I agree with Joe that call-by-
object is a special case of call-by-value.
Woo! Almost sounds like approaching consensus. :)
However, I'
On Nov 10, 2:45 pm, Arnaud Delobelle <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Aaron Brady <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> > Do you ever say to someone, "'Napoleon' will no longer refer to
> > Nelson. It is this lobster now instead", while you are holding a
> > lobster?
>
> Not explicitly. But in the course of
Aaron Brady <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> Do you ever say to someone, "'Napoleon' will no longer refer to
> Nelson. It is this lobster now instead", while you are holding a
> lobster?
Not explicitly. But in the course of conversation I might refer to
Napoleon, meaning Napoleon Bonaparte (1769 -
On Nov 7, 3:03 pm, Arnaud Delobelle <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 1. Is Napoleon a copy of Dobby or are they the same cat?
>
> 2. Is Polion a copy of Napoleon or are they the same cat?
>
> 3. When we got rid of Napoleon's fleas, was Nelson deflea-ed as well?
>
> 4. When Napoleon died, did Nelson die
On 2008-11-08, Terry Reedy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Steven D'Aprano wrote:
>> In an attempt to keep this post from hitting the ridiculous length of one
>
>> (Aside: I've learned one thing in this discussion. Despite the number of
>> sources I've read that claim that if you pass an array to a
Steven D'Aprano wrote:
In an attempt to keep this post from hitting the ridiculous length of one
(Aside: I've learned one thing in this discussion. Despite the number of
sources I've read that claim that if you pass an array to a C function
the entire array will be copied, this does not appea
On Nov 8, 8:42 am, Joe Strout <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Nov 7, 2008, at 6:21 PM, Aaron Brady wrote:
>
> > Therefore objects don't need names to exist. Having a name is
> > sufficient but not necessary to exist. Being in a container is
> > neither necessary -nor- sufficient.
>
> What do you
On Nov 7, 2008, at 6:21 PM, Aaron Brady wrote:
Therefore objects don't need names to exist. Having a name is
sufficient but not necessary to exist. Being in a container is
neither necessary -nor- sufficient.
What do you mean? Being in a container isn't necessary, but it
certainly is suffi
On Fri, 07 Nov 2008 13:05:16 -0700, Joe Strout wrote:
> In Python, AFAICT, there is only one type, the object reference. So,
> the type of every variable is 'reference', and each one contains a
> reference.
This is wrong. If we take "variable" to mean "name", then Python names do
not have types
In an attempt to keep this post from hitting the ridiculous length of one
of my posts last night, I'm going to skip over a lot of things Joe writes
that aren't critical. Just because I've skipped over a comment doesn't
mean I agree with it, merely that I don't think it gains much to argue
the p
On Nov 7, 3:39 pm, Arnaud Delobelle <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Aaron Brady <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> > Furthermore, some class models variables like this:
>
> > a.b= 'abc'
> > a.c= 'def'
> > a.d= 'ghi'
>
> > It also allows index access: a[0], a[1], a[2], respectively. 'abc'
> > has two name
Aaron Brady <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> Furthermore, some class models variables like this:
>
> a.b= 'abc'
> a.c= 'def'
> a.d= 'ghi'
>
> It also allows index access: a[0], a[1], a[2], respectively. 'abc'
> has two names: 'a.b', and 'a[0]'. Correct?
You know very well that a.b and a[0] aren't
On Nov 7, 3:03 pm, Arnaud Delobelle <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Joe Strout <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> > So. How about this for a summary?
>
> > "Python uses call-by-sharing. That's a special case of call-by-value
> > where the variables are references to objects; it is these references
> > th
Joe Strout wrote:
> On Nov 7, 2008, at 12:13 PM, Terry Reedy wrote:
[...]
>>> I wonder if that could be tested systematically. Perhaps we could
>>> round up 20 newbies, divide them into two groups of 10, give each one
>>> a 1-page explanation either based on passing object references
>>> by-value,
Joe Strout <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> So. How about this for a summary?
>
> "Python uses call-by-sharing. That's a special case of call-by-value
> where the variables are references to objects; it is these references
> that are copied to the parameters, not the objects themselves. For
> user
On Nov 7, 2008, at 12:35 PM, Terry Reedy wrote:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Call_by_something#Call_by_sharing
Call by sharing
Also known as "call by object" or "call by object-sharing" is an
evaluation strategy first named by Barbara Liskov et al for the
language CLU in 1974[1]. It is use
On Nov 7, 2008, at 12:13 PM, Terry Reedy wrote:
Python has two types of names. Some complex objects -- modules,
classes, and functions, and wrappers and subclasses thereof, have
'definition names' that are used instead of a 'value' to print a
representation. Otherwise, names are identifie
Steven D'Aprano wrote:
On Fri, 07 Nov 2008 08:48:19 -0700, Joe Strout wrote:
Unfortunately, the term "name" is *slightly* ambiguous in Python. There
are names, and then there are objects which have a name attribute, which
holds a string. This attribute is usually called __name__ but sometimes
Joe Strout wrote:
On Nov 6, 2008, at 10:35 PM, Steve Holden wrote:
Note: I tried to say "name" above instead of "variable" but I couldn't
bring myself to do it -- "name" seems to generic to do that job.
Python has two types of names. Some complex objects -- modules,
classes, and functions,
On Nov 7, 2008, at 10:29 AM, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
Note: I tried to say "name" above instead of "variable" but I
couldn't
bring myself to do it -- "name" seems to generic to do that job.
Lots
of things have names that are not variables: modules have names,
classes
have names, methods hav
On Fri, 07 Nov 2008 08:48:19 -0700, Joe Strout wrote:
> I think of it this way: every variable is an object reference; no
> special syntax needed for it because that's the only type of variable
> there is. (Just as with Java or .NET, when dealing with any class type;
> Python is just a little mor
On Nov 6, 2008, at 10:35 PM, Steve Holden wrote:
That's good to hear. Your arguments are sometimes pretty good, and
usually well made, but there's been far too much insistence on all
sides
about being right and not enough on reaching agreement about how
Python's well-defined semantics for ass
Steve Holden <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> One of the reasons for Python's continue march towards world
> domination (allow me my fantasies) is its consistent simplicity.
> Those last two words would be my candidate for the definition of
> "Pythonicity".
+1 QOTW
--
\ Eccles: “I'll get
Joe Strout wrote:
> On Nov 6, 2008, at 12:44 PM, Arnaud Delobelle wrote:
>
>> I know this thread has grown quite personal for some of its
>> participants. I am posting in a spirit of peace and understanding :)
>
> Thanks, I'll do the same.
>
That's good to hear. Your arguments are sometimes pre
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