On Aug 14, 10:15 pm, Bill Jones oracleb...@gmail.com wrote:
On Aug 8, 3:27 pm, Mark Lawrence breamore...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
My gut feeling (which could of course be wrong) is that many hard core
Pythonistas are cheesed off with newbies who refuse to help themselves.
The funny thing is that
Bill Jones wrote:
On Aug 8, 3:27 pm, Mark Lawrence breamore...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
Kee Nethery wrote:
As someone trying to learn the language I want to say that the tone on
this list towards people who are trying to learn Python feels like it
has become anti-newbies.
[snip]
Kee Nethery
My
On Aug 8, 3:27 pm, Mark Lawrence breamore...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
Kee Nethery wrote:
As someone trying to learn the language I want to say that the tone on
this list towards people who are trying to learn Python feels like it
has become anti-newbies.
[snip]
Kee Nethery
My gut feeling
On Mon, 10 Aug 2009 20:05:00 -0400, David Lyon wrote:
So, what you're advocating is let things stay how they are...
If it's not broken, don't fix it.
Ignore feedback... tell people to freak off...
Only useless feedback.
--
Steven
--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
r a écrit :
(snip)
A little note for tutorial writers:
==
Dear Expert,
Whilst writing any tutorial on any subject matter please remember, you
may be an expert, but mostly *non-experts* will be reading your
material...
I can only second Paul on this : just
On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 6:12 PM, Kee Nethery k...@kagi.com wrote:
I too find the Python docs not very useful and it really slows down my
learning curve.
I wonder if it would make sense to find good tech writers, get a quotes,
and get some professionally written documentation WITH LOTS OF
David Lyon wrote:
On Mon, 10 Aug 2009 09:13:34 -0700, Ethan Furman et...@stoneleaf.us
wrote:
As someone who relies heavily on the docs I will also say that the idea
of giving the ability to modify the official documentation to somebody
who is /learning/ the language is, quite frankly,
On Aug 11, 1:47 am, Steven D'Aprano
ste...@remove.this.cybersource.com.au wrote:
On Mon, 10 Aug 2009 20:05:00 -0400, David Lyon wrote:
Ignore feedback... tell people to freak off...
Only useless feedback.
And who decides what is useless and what isn't Steven?. You?, alex23?,
Bruno?, Paul?
r wrote:
On Aug 11, 1:47 am, Steven D'Aprano
ste...@remove.this.cybersource.com.au wrote:
On Mon, 10 Aug 2009 20:05:00 -0400, David Lyon wrote:
Ignore feedback... tell people to freak off...
Only useless feedback.
[snip]
I am sorry but i feel many here would not judge fairly based on the
[Paul Rubin]
I think the Python tutorial is aimed at users who are newbies to
Python but not newbies to programming. Writing a tutorial for total
newbies is a completely different problem, that would result in a much
different document that's less useful to the existing tutorial's
intended
r rt8...@gmail.com writes:
Some say the tutorial is not meant for non-programmers, but for
programmers with no Python experience. So! How does that justify
obstruction of the tut? Why not present the same information in a way
both can easily understand?
I agree that a tutorial for
Raymond Hettinger pyt...@rcn.com writes:
Here is the page specifically marked for those who are new to programming:
http://wiki.python.org/moin/BeginnersGuide
Oh cool, I didn't know about that one.
--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
On Thu, Aug 6, 2009 at 2:36 PM, Kee Netheryk...@kagi.com wrote:
As someone trying to learn the language I want to say that the tone on this
list towards people who are trying to learn Python feels like it has become
anti-newbies.
Learning a new language is difficult enough without seeing
Ok people follow me here. Open your winders help file and click the
Tutorial link. What is this FLUFF doing here!?!?! Where is the damn
index? Where is the damn tutorial? I want to learn Python not read the
HISTORY OF THE WORLD.
Upon clicking the Tutorial link pre 2.6, a nice menu was placed
r wrote:
Ok people follow me here. Open your winders help file and click the
Tutorial link. What is this FLUFF doing here!?!?! Where is the damn
index? Where is the damn tutorial? I want to learn Python not read the
HISTORY OF THE WORLD.
Upon clicking the Tutorial link pre 2.6, a nice menu was
Ah Ha! the docs are broken and i was right all along! Are the good
folks at Python dev rolling a new installer as we speak, or we must
wait for new version?
--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
r wrote:
Ah Ha! the docs are broken and i was right all along! Are the good
folks at Python dev rolling a new installer as we speak, or we must
wait for new version?
As I pointed out a few minutes ago thicko, the new version has been
available for months.
--
Kindest regards.
Mark Lawrence.
On Aug 11, 1:46 pm, Mark Lawrence breamore...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
r wrote:
Ah Ha! the docs are broken and i was right all along! Are the good
folks at Python dev rolling a new installer as we speak, or we must
wait for new version?
As I pointed out a few minutes ago thicko, the new version
Carl Banks wrote:
On Aug 11, 1:46 pm, Mark Lawrence breamore...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
r wrote:
Ah Ha! the docs are broken and i was right all along! Are the good
folks at Python dev rolling a new installer as we speak, or we must
wait for new version?
As I pointed out a few minutes ago thicko,
...(Carl Banks doing what he does best)
I'm mailing you to kindly request, again, that you please stop
validating r's disruptiveness by responding to him on
comp.lang.python. Thank you.
Carl,
You have no right to tell people when where and how they should speak
to anyone. And how dare you
Hello Paul,
This is strictly OT, but when you get a chance, could you contact me off
list at the above address?
I need your help with the From: email address specified in your posts to
the list.
Thanks,
CJ
--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
On Aug 11, 2:46 pm, Mark Lawrence breamore...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
r wrote:
Ah Ha! the docs are broken and i was right all along! Are the good
folks at Python dev rolling a new installer as we speak, or we must
wait for new version?
As I pointed out a few minutes ago thicko, the new version
Kee Nethery wrote:
As someone trying to learn the language I want to say that the tone on
this list towards people who are trying to learn Python feels like it
has become anti-newbies.
Learning a new language is difficult enough without seeing other
newbies getting shamed for not knowing
On Aug 10, 11:13 am, Ethan Furman et...@stoneleaf.us wrote:
(snip)
As someone who relies heavily on the docs I will also say that the idea
of giving the ability to modify the official documentation to somebody
who is /learning/ the language is, quite frankly, terrifying.
(snip)
Ethan,
I think
On Mon, 10 Aug 2009 09:13:34 -0700, Ethan Furman et...@stoneleaf.us
wrote:
As someone who relies heavily on the docs I will also say that the idea
of giving the ability to modify the official documentation to somebody
who is /learning/ the language is, quite frankly, terrifying.
What is
r rt8...@gmail.com writes:
Whilst writing any tutorial on any subject matter please remember, you
may be an expert, but mostly *non-experts* will be reading your
material... pssft, this may come as a surprise, but tutorials are
meant for *NON-EXPERTS*!
I think the Python tutorial is aimed at
On Sat, 08 Aug 2009 20:27:49 +0100, Mark Lawrence wrote:
Further, I have seen many requests here which are nothing really to do
with Python, say a query about which algorithm to use. Response Not
really a Python question, but try Put the same question on (say)
the C ng and you'd be
On Aug 7, 5:15 pm, Dave Angel da...@ieee.org wrote:
alex23 wrote:
Paul Rubin http://phr...@nospam.invalid wrote:
The PHP docs as I remember are sort of regular (non-publically
editable) doc pages, each of which has a public discussion thread
where people can post questions and answers
As someone trying to learn the language I want to say that the tone on
this list towards people who are trying to learn Python feels like it
has become anti-newbies.
Learning a new language is difficult enough without seeing other
newbies getting shamed for not knowing everything there is
Terry Reedy tjre...@udel.edu wrote:
RayS wrote:
http://www.php.net/manual/en/language.types.array.php is a prime example
[ ... ]
I consider consider this to an unreadable mishmash.
[compared to]
something compact and readable.
Are you talking about the language or the documentation? 9-)
On Aug 7, 12:41 am, alex23 wuwe...@gmail.com wrote:
...(snip)
How about a secondary site that embeds the docs and provides
commenting functionality around it? That's certainly a finitely scoped
project that those with issues about the docs could establish and
contribute to, with the
Paul Rubin schreef:
Steven D'Aprano st...@remove-this-cybersource.com.au writes:
As for the rest, you're right that the current bug-tracker puts up
barriers to people submitting comments and bugs. That's actually a good
thing. The only thing worse than not enough information is too much
Kee Nethery wrote:
As someone trying to learn the language I want to say that the tone on
this list towards people who are trying to learn Python feels like it
has become anti-newbies.
[snip]
Kee Nethery
My gut feeling (which could of course be wrong) is that many hard core
Pythonistas
On Aug 6, 11:36 am, Kee Nethery k...@kagi.com wrote:
As someone trying to learn the language I want to say that the tone on
this list towards people who are trying to learn Python feels like it
has become anti-newbies.
I don't think this NG is anti-newbie so much as anti-whining-loser.
Paul Rubin http://phr...@nospam.invalid wrote:
Stephen, Alex, etc.: have you actually used the php.net doc system?
Don't knock it til you've tried it. IMO it is superior to Python's
system.
I've tried it, a lot. Is it okay for me to keep criticising it now, or
would you like some time to
alex23 wrote:
Paul Rubin http://phr...@nospam.invalid wrote:
The PHP docs as I remember are sort of regular (non-publically
editable) doc pages, each of which has a public discussion thread
where people can post questions and answers about the topic of that
doc page. I thought it worked
alex23 wuwe...@gmail.com writes:
I'd still like to see this kept out of the official docs as much as
possible, mostly for reasons of brevity clarity. I think the
official docs should be considered definitive and not require a
hermeneutic evaluation against user comments to ensure they're
alex23 wrote:
Paul Rubin http://phr...@nospam.invalid wrote:
The PHP docs as I remember are sort of regular (non-publically
editable) doc pages, each of which has a public discussion thread
where people can post questions and answers about the topic of that
doc page. I thought it worked
Paul Rubin http://phr...@nospam.invalid wrote:
Such evaluation would only do them good. The official docs are full
of errors and omissions, which is why we have this thread going on
here in the newsgroup.
And there is a process for reporting and correcting such errors and
omissions, which is
During all this conversation there was a ticket posted in the bug
tracking system with the suggestion of each section in the official
docs linking to a fixed wiki page that can contain user contributions.
The ticket has been closed because this addition to the official docs
is already in
On Aug 7, 11:03 am, Kee Nethery k...@kagi.com wrote:
...(snip)
I'm looking forward to the acceleration of improvements to the
official docs based upon easy to provide user feedback. Glad to see
that the bug tracking system is going to not be the primary means for
documentation changes.
Kee Nethery k...@kagi.com wrote:
I'm looking forward to the acceleration of improvements to the
official docs based upon easy to provide user feedback. Glad to see
that the bug tracking system is going to not be the primary means for
documentation changes.
I'm not sure what you see as
On Fri, Aug 7, 2009 at 1:48 PM, alex23wuwe...@gmail.com wrote:
Why exactly is posting an open comment on a bug tracker somehow
inferior to posting an open comment on a wiki?
When one believes that development is controlled by a cabal which is
jealous of outsiders and actively prevents
David Robinow drobi...@gmail.com wrote:
When one believes that development is controlled by a cabal which is
jealous of outsiders and actively prevents improvements to the docs,
any change, even if only in perception, helps to weaken the hold of
the evil forces holding back the success of
On Aug 7, 2009, at 10:48 AM, alex23 wrote:
Kee Nethery k...@kagi.com wrote:
I'm looking forward to the acceleration of improvements to the
official docs based upon easy to provide user feedback. Glad to see
that the bug tracking system is going to not be the primary means for
documentation
On Aug 7, 3:35 pm, Kee Nethery k...@kagi.com wrote:
(snip)
Kee,
that was an eloquent and enlighting post and i think it speaks volumes
to the lack of inclusion of all Pythoneers in this community. Not to
mention the viscous attitudes and self indulgence we have around here.
For those of you with
On Fri, 07 Aug 2009 13:35:26 -0700, Kee Nethery wrote:
Why exactly is posting an open comment on a bug tracker somehow
inferior to posting an open comment on a wiki?
It's a good question and deserves a good answer.
* Fewer Steps
* Immediate
* Does not need to be formally reviewed
*
On Aug 7, 9:25 pm, Steven D'Aprano st...@remove-this-
cybersource.com.au wrote:
If you want an open-access documentation system go right ahead and build
one. There are plenty of wikis available to use, and the Python docs are
freely available as your starting point. I might even contribute
Steven D'Aprano st...@remove-this-cybersource.com.au writes:
As for the rest, you're right that the current bug-tracker puts up
barriers to people submitting comments and bugs. That's actually a good
thing. The only thing worse than not enough information is too much
information, and the
RayS wrote:
At 08:35 PM 8/5/2009 -0700, r wrote:
... Any real sense of community is undermined -- or
even destroyed -- to be replaced by virtual equivalents that strive,
unsuccessfully, to synthesize a sense of community.
I've brought up the idea of the quasi-community doc that PHP uses to
On Aug 6, 2009, at 6:55 AM, Terry Reedy wrote:
RayS wrote:
At 08:35 PM 8/5/2009 -0700, r wrote:
... Any real sense of community is undermined -- or
even destroyed -- to be replaced by virtual equivalents that strive,
unsuccessfully, to synthesize a sense of community.
I've brought up the
Kee Nethery wrote:
As I struggle through trying to figure out how to make python do
simple stuff for me, I frequently generate samples. If some volunteer
here would point me towards the documentation that would tell me how I
can alter the existing Python docs to include sample code, I'd
alex23 wuwe...@gmail.com writes:
No offence, but the last thing the official documentation needs is
example code written by people learning how to code. Suggest changes,
request clarifications, submit samples for review, sure, but direct
modification by users? I've seen the PHP docs; thanks
Paul Rubin http://phr...@nospam.invalid wrote:
The PHP docs as I remember are sort of regular (non-publically
editable) doc pages, each of which has a public discussion thread
where people can post questions and answers about the topic of that
doc page. I thought it worked really well. The
On Aug 4, 12:55 am, David Lyon david.l...@preisshare.net wrote:
It isn't totally about the writers...
Peoples egos are also at stake - it seems.
If Fred X wrote Doc Y.. they don't want their name taken off.. So
they generally speaking don't want the docs changed.
If you talk too much about
At 08:35 PM 8/5/2009 -0700, r wrote:
... Any real
sense of community is undermined -- or
even destroyed -- to be replaced by virtual equivalents that
strive,
unsuccessfully, to synthesize a sense of
community.
I've brought up the idea of the quasi-community doc
that PHP uses to good effect.
It isn't totally about the writers...
Peoples egos are also at stake - it seems.
If Fred X wrote Doc Y.. they don't want their name taken off.. So
they generally speaking don't want the docs changed.
If you talk too much about docs.. you can be told you're OT..
even in a thread about docs...
On Aug 4, 3:55 pm, David Lyon david.l...@preisshare.net wrote:
It isn't totally about the writers...
Peoples egos are also at stake - it seems.
Citation please.
If Fred X wrote Doc Y.. they don't want their name taken off.. So
they generally speaking don't want the docs changed.
Ditto.
If
I too find the Python docs not very useful and it really slows down my
learning curve.
I wonder if it would make sense to find good tech writers, get a
quotes, and get some professionally written documentation WITH LOTS OF
EXAMPLES added to the standard Python documentation tree.
I'd
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