On 18 Aug, 05:19, ru...@yahoo.com wrote:
Yes, I agree. I should have mentioned this as an exception
in my wikis suck diatribe. Although it far better than
most wiki's I've seen, it is still pretty easy to find signs
of typical wiki-ness. On the Documentation page my first
click was on
ru...@yahoo.com writes:
I took a look at the PHP docs last night which seem pretty well
done. The User Comments looked rather as I expected, there was
useful info but most did not contain documentation quality writing.
So if they are used as a source for improving the docs, there
clearly
On Aug 12, 12:15 pm, Raymond Hettinger pyt...@rcn.com wrote:
[Xah Lee]
i've wrote several articles about this issue, total time spend on this
is probably more than 2 months full-time work. See:
• Python Documentation Problems
http://xahlee.org/perl-python/python_doc_index.html
I just
Xah Lee wrote:
On Aug 12, 12:15 pm, Raymond Hettinger pyt...@rcn.com wrote:
* The reason for implementing the key= parameter had nothing to do
with limitations of Python's compiler. Instead, it was inspired by
the
decorate-sort-undecorate pattern.
The decorate-sort-undecorate pattern is a
Jon Harrop j...@ffconsultancy.com wrote:
Xah Lee wrote:
[...]
Please do not feed this well-known troll.
He is known to spew some remotely on-topic junk into a bunch of
unrelated NGs and to enjoy the ensuing confusion.
jue
--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Jon Harrop j...@ffconsultancy.com writes:
You mean people use that pattern as a fast alternative in languages where
user-defined functions are very slow, like Python and Mathematica?
It really doesn't matter whether the language is fast or slow--there
are going to be applications where calling
Jon Harrop wrote:
Xah Lee wrote:
On Aug 12, 12:15 pm, Raymond Hettinger pyt...@rcn.com wrote:
* The reason for implementing the key= parameter had nothing to do
with limitations of Python's compiler. Instead, it was inspired by
the
decorate-sort-undecorate pattern.
The
[Xah Lee]
This part i don't particular agree:
* The reason for implementing the key= parameter had nothing to do
with limitations of Python's compiler. Instead, it was inspired by
the
decorate-sort-undecorate pattern.
The decorate-sort-undecorate pattern is a compiler limitation, for
On 08/13/2009 08:46 AM, Paul Boddie wrote:
On 13 Aug, 16:05, ru...@yahoo.com wrote:
All the above not withstanding, I too think a wiki is worth
trying. But without doing a lot more than just setting up
a wiki, I sadly believe even a python.org supported wiki
is doomed to failure.
The ones
Nathan Keel wrote:
idiot ... asshole
absolutely clueless ... idiot ...incredibly
arrogant, yet incredibly clueless.
To me, such name-calling is as obnoxious as the intended target.
tjr
--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
On Mon, 17 Aug 2009 13:56:13 -0700, Paul Rubin wrote:
Python 3.0 went overboard by actually removing the cmp argument and
requiring use of the key argument. That requires various kludges if the
key is, say, a tree structure that has to be recursively compared with
another such structure.
Thanks Raymond.
I've been out of python community for a couple of years. I've saved
your messages and will study it later when next time i work in python.
Possibly today and will reply in some of your points.
But just wanted to say thanks for improving python.
Also, sometimes ago out of the
On 08/12/2009 12:27 PM, Raymond Hettinger wrote:
On Aug 12, 3:32 am, Paul Boddiep...@boddie.org.uk wrote:
Maybe the problem is that although everyone welcomes contributions and
changes (or says that they do), the mechanisms remain largely beyond
criticism.
FWIW, I support the idea the
On 13 Aug, 16:05, ru...@yahoo.com wrote:
All the above not withstanding, I too think a wiki is worth
trying. But without doing a lot more than just setting up
a wiki, I sadly believe even a python.org supported wiki
is doomed to failure.
The ones on python.org seem to function reasonably
On Wed, 12 Aug 2009 20:23:27 -0700, rurpy wrote:
That's no different from *any* major refactoring. The exact same
problem exists for code as well as documentation. It's a solved problem
for code, and it's a solved problem for documentation.
Huh? I don't buy this at all. Code refactoring
A basic question in this thread is: Who will host the
doc-wiki/whatever and how will it be linked to?
If not hosted at python.org it can still be linked to from their
docs, if allowed, possibly with 3rd level domain and re-direct.
I host a number of commercial servers but I don't expect Guido to
ru...@yahoo.com wrote:
Such a reorg is not a simple matter
of moving a file from here to there. It will require a lot
moving about of sections and a lot of word-smithing to glue
them back together again in a coherent way.
Concerning this particular issue, not everyone would
agree that the doc
On Tue, 11 Aug 2009 14:50:51 -0700, rurpy wrote:
The issue tracker is fine for many things, but the process it provides
is equivalent to peep-hole optimization. How does one submit a
tracker issue for something like the overall organization of the docs
(for example, the mis-placement of
On Tuesday 11 August 2009 19:53:16 Steven D'Aprano wrote:
You want community input into the docs, but you're not willing to give
that input except to bitch and moan and sook that the tracker is no good.
wtf does the verb sook mean?
I find:
sook
/sʊk/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [sook] Show
On 12 Aug, 09:58, Steven D'Aprano
ste...@remove.this.cybersource.com.au wrote:
We know that there are problems. We've said repeatedly that corrections
and patches are welcome. We've repeatedly told you how to communicate
your answer to the question of what should be done. None of this is good
On Wed, 12 Aug 2009 03:32:08 -0700, Paul Boddie wrote:
On 12 Aug, 09:58, Steven D'Aprano
ste...@remove.this.cybersource.com.au wrote:
We know that there are problems. We've said repeatedly that corrections
and patches are welcome. We've repeatedly told you how to communicate
your answer to
Paul Boddie paul at boddie.org.uk writes:
A free-for-all isn't likely to be the best solution for more actively
edited Python documentation, but Wiki solutions undeniably provide a
superior fast path for edits by trusted users to be incorporated and
published in accessible end-user
On 12 Aug, 14:08, Steven D'Aprano st...@remove-this-
cybersource.com.au wrote:
With tens of millions of web users, it's no surprise that Wikipedia can
attract thousands of editors. But this does not apply to Python, which
starts from a comparatively tiny population, primarily those interested
Paul Boddie wrote:
[snip]
One can always spend one's time doing something which isn't 100%
enjoyable or 100% rewarding if one feels that the time is still being
spent on something worthwhile. I'm getting the feeling that lots of
Python-related stuff doesn't quite satisfy such criteria any more.
On Wed, 12 Aug 2009 06:24:18 -0700, Paul Boddie wrote:
On 12 Aug, 14:08, Steven D'Aprano st...@remove-this-
cybersource.com.au wrote:
With tens of millions of web users, it's no surprise that Wikipedia can
attract thousands of editors. But this does not apply to Python, which
starts from a
On 12 Aug, 17:08, Steven D'Aprano st...@remove-this-
cybersource.com.au wrote:
On Wed, 12 Aug 2009 06:24:18 -0700, Paul Boddie wrote:
What does the Python entry on Wikipedia have to do with editing the
Python documentation in a Wiki?
Good question. I was responding to you mentioning
Paul Boddie wrote:
On 12 Aug, 17:08, Steven D'Aprano st...@remove-this-
cybersource.com.au wrote:
It's not the people who suggest improvements to the docs that are the
problem, but the ones who insist that the docs are terrible, but aren't
willing to do anything but complain. Oh, and trolls
On Aug 12, 3:32 am, Paul Boddie p...@boddie.org.uk wrote:
Maybe the problem is that although everyone welcomes contributions and
changes (or says that they do), the mechanisms remain largely beyond
criticism.
FWIW, I support the idea the regular docs incorporating links to
freely editable wiki
[Xah Lee]
i've wrote several articles about this issue, total time spend on this
is probably more than 2 months full-time work. See:
• Python Documentation Problems
http://xahlee.org/perl-python/python_doc_index.html
I just read you post. You did devote a substantial amount of time
to the
On Aug 12, 1:27 pm, Raymond Hettinger pyt...@rcn.com wrote:
(snip)
* Many doc requests come from people just learning the language
(that makes sense because the learning process involves reading
the docs). Unfortunately, a fair number of those requests are
flat-out wrong or represent a
[Raymond Hettinger]
Here are a few thoughts on list.sort() for those who are interested:
After one more reading of Xah Lee's posts on the documentation for
sort,
here are couple more thoughts:
* The reason that list.sort() allows None for the cmp parameter is not
so that you can write
FWIW, I support the idea the regular docs incorporating links
to freely editable wiki pages. That will at least make it
easier for people to make changes or add notes.
That being said, I would like to add a few thoughts about the
current process. ISTM that important corrections (when
On 08/12/2009 01:58 AM, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
On Tue, 11 Aug 2009 14:50:51 -0700, rurpy wrote:
The issue tracker is fine for many things, but the process it provides
is equivalent to peep-hole optimization. How does one submit a
tracker issue for something like the overall organization of
Raymond Hettinger wrote:
On Aug 12, 3:32 am, Paul Boddie p...@boddie.org.uk wrote:
Maybe the problem is that although everyone welcomes contributions and
changes (or says that they do), the mechanisms remain largely beyond
criticism.
FWIW, I support the idea the regular docs incorporating
Paul Boddie wrote:
Right, but those good points are still worth taking on board. There
have been Xah Lee posts which have been relatively constructive,
The last time that he did do so that I read, I responded rationally like
I would with any other normal post. He responded with foul insults.
r rt8396 at gmail.com writes:
On Aug 9, 11:02 pm, David Lyon david.l...@preisshare.net wrote:
Since you're talking about documentation, which is a part of python,
don't you think you should be discussing it on python-dev ?
Yea, them's be a friendly bunch to noob ideas ;). Hey i got a
Antoine Pitrou wrote:
r rt8396 at gmail.com writes:
On Aug 9, 11:02 pm, David Lyon david.l...@preisshare.net wrote:
Since you're talking about documentation, which is a part of python,
don't you think you should be discussing it on python-dev ?
Yea, them's be a friendly bunch to noob ideas
On 08/11/2009 01:47 AM, Antoine Pitrou wrote:
rrt8396at gmail.com writes:
On Aug 9, 11:02 pm, David Lyondavid.l...@preisshare.net wrote:
Since you're talking about documentation, which is a part of python,
don't you think you should be discussing it on python-dev ?
Yea, them's be a
On Tue, 11 Aug 2009 07:57:28 -0700, rurpy wrote:
On 08/11/2009 01:47 AM, Antoine Pitrou wrote:
rrt8396at gmail.com writes:
On Aug 9, 11:02 pm, David Lyondavid.l...@preisshare.net wrote:
Since you're talking about documentation, which is a part of python,
don't you think you should be
Steven D'Aprano st...@remove-this-cybersource.com.au writes:
- if people are keen on a Python wiki, then by all means publish one,
just don't expect the Python dev team to build and manage it for you;
There are already some nice ones at:
http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Python
--
On 08/11/2009 11:53 AM, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
On Tue, 11 Aug 2009 07:57:28 -0700, rurpy wrote:
On 08/11/2009 01:47 AM, Antoine Pitrou wrote:
rrt8396at gmail.com writes:
On Aug 9, 11:02 pm, David Lyondavid.l...@preisshare.net wrote:
Since you're talking about documentation, which is a
On 11 Aug, 23:50, ru...@yahoo.com wrote:
However, were the Python docs site to provide a wiki, along
with a mechanism to migrate suggestions developed on the wiki
into the docs, it might well be a viable (and easier because of
the wysiwyg effect) way of improving the docs. As other have
At 03:08 PM 8/11/2009, you wrote:
I recommend going to the existing Wiki and looking at what there is
already:
http://wiki.python.org/moin/Documentation
http://wiki.python.org/moin/CategoryDocumentation
I also can't see how to get
from http://wiki.python.org/moin/Documentation to
On Aug 11, 3:08 pm, Paul Boddie p...@boddie.org.uk wrote:
Certainly, the documentation situation with
Python is not ideal; otherwise, people would not be complaining about
it so frequently.
I will not take an opinion on whether Python's documentation is ideal
(more on why below) but I will
On 11 Aug, 11:37 pm, pavlovevide...@gmail.com wrote:
I will not take an opinion on whether Python's documentation is ideal
(more on why below) but I will opine that the conclusion doesn't
follow from your premise. People's expectations of what documentation
should be are too different, there
On Aug 11, 4:08 pm, Paul Boddie p...@boddie.org.uk wrote:
On 11 Aug, 23:50, ru...@yahoo.com wrote:
However, were the Python docs site to provide a wiki, along
with a mechanism to migrate suggestions developed on the wiki
into the docs, it might well be a viable (and easier because of
the
Carl Banks pavlovevide...@gmail.com writes:
On For example, kj (who started this mess of thread) complained that
pydoc didn't give exhaustive usage documentation. In contrast, I
think pydoc gives too much information. I would rather have only the
bare minimum; I don't want to pan through ten
On Aug 9, 10:02 pm, David Lyon david.l...@preisshare.net wrote:
...
Before you do that, you should clearly work out in your own mind
how you think things need to improve. It's not good enough just
saying this or that is bad without having specific ideas on what
needs to change.
'''
He did.
On Aug 9, 11:02 pm, David Lyon david.l...@preisshare.net wrote:
Since you're talking about documentation, which is a part of python,
don't you think you should be discussing it on python-dev ?
Yea, them's be a friendly bunch to noob ideas ;). Hey i got a better
idea, lets go to the IRS and see
Since you're talking about documentation, which is a part of python,
don't you think you should be discussing it on python-dev ?
That's where discussions about the documentation should be held.
haha - I'm just curious to see how long it will for them to
shut the discussion down.
Before you do
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