flebber wrote:
so in my file I had on line 44 this trainer name.
Michael, Wayne John Hawkes
and in line 95 this horse name. Inz'n'out
this throws of my capturing correct item 9. How do I protect against this?
Use python's csv module to read the file. Don't try to
do it yourself; the rules
Steven D'Aprano wrote:
Disadvantages of tabs:
- Many standard Unix/Linux/POSIX tools have a hard time dealing with tabs.
I call such tools *broken*,
They're not broken, they're just using a different set of
conventions. Unix traditionally uses tab characters as a
form of space compression.
Steven D'Aprano wrote:
That's exactly the problem with tabs - whatever you think your code
looks like with tabs, other people will see quite different picture.
Why do you consider this a problem?
It's a problem if you try to use tabs for lining things
up in a tabular fashion in your source
eGenix.com at the EuroPython Conference 2014
July 21-27 2014
Berlin, Germany
wxjmfa...@gmail.com:
Le vendredi 4 juillet 2014 08:35:04 UTC+2, Gregory Ewing a écrit :
The truly broken tools IMO are things like mail handlers that shrink
away in terror when they see a tab and remove it altogether. There's
no excuse for that, as far as I can see.
Yes, and you can extend
I try to insert username in to my table
it show
Internal Server Error
The server encountered an internal error and was unable to complete your
request. Either the server is overloaded or there is an error in the
application.
it maybe mean no request
i try to change username to '123123'
then
On Fri, Jul 4, 2014 at 8:15 PM, Frank Liou fk2654159...@gmail.com wrote:
I try to insert username in to my table
it show
Internal Server Error
The server encountered an internal error and was unable to complete your
request. Either the server is overloaded or there is an error in the
On Friday, 4 July 2014 14:12:15 UTC+10, flebber wrote:
I have taken the code and gone a little further, but I need to be able to
protect myself against commas and single quotes in names.
How is it the best to do this?
so in my file I had on line 44 this trainer name.
On Thu, Jul 3, 2014 at 7:31 PM, Tobiah tshep...@rcsreg.com wrote:
Anyway, I gave up the 80 char line length long
ago, having little feeling for some dolt on
a Weiss terminal that for some reason needs to
edit my code.
And yet, you did not give up an even more insane line length limit, in
On Friday, 4 July 2014 16:19:09 UTC+10, Gregory Ewing wrote:
flebber wrote:
so in my file I had on line 44 this trainer name.
Michael, Wayne John Hawkes
and in line 95 this horse name. Inz'n'out
this throws of my capturing correct item 9. How do I protect against
On Wednesday, July 2, 2014 9:59:46 PM UTC-7, Ned Deily wrote:
In article a7809952-685b-489b-a94c-63b83c971...@googlegroups.com,
Conrad Taylor conra...@gmail.com wrote:
Hi, shouldn't pip be automatically installed for Python 3.4.0 release? I
have read through the release and the PEP
On Saturday, 24 May 2014 04:45:14 UTC+5:30, subhaba...@gmail.com wrote:
Dear Group,
It seems there is a nice language processing library named TextBlob, like
NLTK.
But I am being unable to install it on my Windows(MS-Windows 7 machine. I am
using Python 2.7
If anyone of the
Hello,
I have that piece of code:
def _split_block(self, block):
cre = [re.compile(r, flags = re.MULTILINE) for r in self.regexps]
block = .join(block)
print(block)
print(---)
for regexp in cre:
match = regexp.match(block)
On 07/04/2014 12:28 PM, flebber wrote:
On Friday, 4 July 2014 14:12:15 UTC+10, flebber wrote:
I have taken the code and gone a little further, but I need to be able to
protect myself against commas and single quotes in names.
How is it the best to do this?
so in my file I had on line 44
I want to monitor printers for events such as the completion of printing.
If the printer initiates an SNMP trap event when the job has finished printing,
how can I capture this?
Presumably I need some sort of deamon to listen for these trap messages. I have
looked at pySNMP but am not sure if
In article c1n08qfhvj...@mid.individual.net,
Gregory Ewing greg.ew...@canterbury.ac.nz wrote:
As long as *all* your tools follow that convention, everything
is fine. The problems arise when you mix in tools that use
different conventions.
The problem is, tools always get mixed. I use emacs.
On 07/04/2014 04:47 PM, Roy Smith wrote:
As long as*all* your tools follow that convention, everything
is fine. The problems arise when you mix in tools that use
different conventions.
The problem is, tools always get mixed. I use emacs. The next guy uses
vi. Somebody else uses Sublime.
On 2014-07-03, Emile van Sebille em...@fenx.com wrote:
On 7/3/2014 2:23 PM, Tobiah wrote:
I think your suggestion of having GIT handle the transformations
is the way we'll go. nothing to quibble or worry about. Well put
spaces in the repository since it still seems to be the community's
Grant Edwards invalid@invalid.invalid:
Definitely. Indenting with tabs vs. spaces is mostly personal
preference (though spaces are better!). But, mixing the two is right
out, and should be stomped on hard.
Often one person writes the code and another person fixes bugs in it or
adds features
On 04/07/2014 15:28, Grant Edwards wrote:
On 2014-07-03, Emile van Sebille em...@fenx.com wrote:
On 7/3/2014 2:23 PM, Tobiah wrote:
I think your suggestion of having GIT handle the transformations
is the way we'll go. nothing to quibble or worry about. Well put
spaces in the repository since
On Sat, Jul 5, 2014 at 12:54 AM, Marko Rauhamaa ma...@pacujo.net wrote:
Grant Edwards invalid@invalid.invalid:
Definitely. Indenting with tabs vs. spaces is mostly personal
preference (though spaces are better!). But, mixing the two is right
out, and should be stomped on hard.
Often one
On 04/07/2014 15:54, Marko Rauhamaa wrote:
Grant Edwards invalid@invalid.invalid:
Definitely. Indenting with tabs vs. spaces is mostly personal
preference (though spaces are better!). But, mixing the two is right
out, and should be stomped on hard.
Often one person writes the code and
On 04/07/2014 14:59, Mihamina Rakotomandimby wrote:
On 07/04/2014 04:47 PM, Roy Smith wrote:
As long as*all* your tools follow that convention, everything
is fine. The problems arise when you mix in tools that use
different conventions.
The problem is, tools always get mixed. I use emacs.
Mark Lawrence breamore...@yahoo.co.uk:
Only for the very old fashioned Python 2, the modern Python 3 has
booted mixed tabs and spaces into touch.
Since Python 3 (alas!) got into the business of booting, it should have
booted tabs altogether.
Marko
--
Isn't this an old discussion? Just configure your editor properly. In my
team we all use spaces, but I'll be damned if I need to type 12 spaces in a
row. I'll just configured Sublime to insert spaces instead of tabs. Problem
solved.
On Fri, Jul 4, 2014 at 12:12 PM, Mark Lawrence
On 7/4/2014 7:57 AM, Mark Lawrence wrote:
On 04/07/2014 15:28, Grant Edwards wrote:
On 2014-07-03, Emile van Sebille em...@fenx.com wrote:
snip
Just watch out for mixed tabs and spaces in the same file -- a tab
counts as eight spaces and can be used interchangeably in python2.
Definitely.
On 2014-07-04 13:27, Florian Lindner wrote:
Hello,
I have that piece of code:
def _split_block(self, block):
cre = [re.compile(r, flags = re.MULTILINE) for r in self.regexps]
block = .join(block)
print(block)
print(---)
for
On 04/07/2014 16:57, Emile van Sebille wrote:
On 7/4/2014 7:57 AM, Mark Lawrence wrote:
On 04/07/2014 15:28, Grant Edwards wrote:
On 2014-07-03, Emile van Sebille em...@fenx.com wrote:
snip
Just watch out for mixed tabs and spaces in the same file -- a tab
counts as eight spaces and can be
Surely the issue of mixing tabs and spaces is much more important than
working systems? :)
Python 3 considers tabs as an error and refuses to work.
--
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
In article mailman.11497.1404486912.18130.python-l...@python.org,
George Silva georger.si...@gmail.com wrote:
Isn't this an old discussion? Just configure your editor properly. In my
team we all use spaces, but I'll be damned if I need to type 12 spaces in a
row. I'll just configured Sublime
On Fri, 04 Jul 2014 09:19:24 -0700, Maciej Dziardziel wrote:
Surely the issue of mixing tabs and spaces is much more important than
working systems? :)
Python 3 considers tabs as an error and refuses to work.
Incorrect.
[steve@ando ~]$ python3
Python 3.3.0rc3 (default, Sep 27 2012,
I assume any sane editor has similar functionality. I see my coworkers
using vim, sublime, eclipse, and X-code. They all appear to do these
things, and I would thus classify any of them as sane editors. I'm sure
there are others. If the tool you're (in the generic sense of you)
using
On 4-7-2014 1:09, Rita wrote:
here is what I am doing now,
egrep 'from|import' *.py | wc -l which is giving me that. But this does not
give me the number of times the particular module gets called. I was
thinking of adding a logging feature to all of my modules so every time
they get
On 4-7-2014 19:05, Irmen de Jong wrote:
The code at the end of this message outputs the following on my machine:
[...]
hmm the formatting got screwed up a bit it seems.
Here's the same code: https://gist.github.com/irmen/c3d07118a8e1a00367f5
Irmen
--
On 04/07/14 07:55, Gregory Ewing wrote:
Steven D'Aprano wrote:
That's exactly the problem with tabs - whatever you think your code
looks like with tabs, other people will see quite different picture.
Why do you consider this a problem?
It's a problem if you try to use tabs for lining
On 4 July 2014 15:54:50 BST, Marko Rauhamaa ma...@pacujo.net wrote:
Even if we accepted that to be bad style, there's nothing on the screen
that would warn against such usage: the lines seemingly align
perfectly,
and the code runs as expected.
If using vim, set list and listchars, you get to
In article mailman.11507.1404498596.18130.python-l...@python.org,
Lie Ryan lie.1...@gmail.com wrote:
PEP8 suggests using this style of method invocation:
obj.method(foo,
bar,
baz)
which is an effect impossible to do correctly with tabs alone.
If
On 04/07/2014 20:04, Roy Smith wrote:
In article mailman.11507.1404498596.18130.python-l...@python.org,
Lie Ryan lie.1...@gmail.com wrote:
PEP8 suggests using this style of method invocation:
obj.method(foo,
bar,
baz)
which is an effect impossible to
Hi,
I am learning a Python Tool from web:
http://www.ohwr.org/projects/hdl-make/wiki/Quick-start-new
I download the program to Ubuntu 12.04. I find that in the folder it is shown as
hdlmake-v1.0, 37.8 KB Python Script. I remember that script file can be loaded
to an editor to read its content.
Hi there
the script is 'actually' a python script compressed, with a short header
(see the '#!/usr/bin/python' right at the front? I'm guessing that if you make
it executable, and run it, then it will either create a .py file that you can
edit, or just run the hdlmake function that you
Lie Ryan wrote:
PEP8 suggests using this style of method invocation:
obj.method(foo,
bar,
baz)
which is an effect impossible to do correctly with tabs alone.
Yes, PEP 8 is self-contradictory in that regard.
I also happen to think that recommendation is
Roy Smith wrote:
The problem is, tools always get mixed. I use emacs. The next guy uses
vi. Somebody else uses Sublime. The list goes on and on. You will
never control what tools other people use.
Yes, but my point is that none of the tools are broken,
they're just incompatible.
--
Greg
On 2014-07-05 11:17, Gregory Ewing wrote:
PEP8 suggests using this style of method invocation:
obj.method(foo,
bar,
baz)
which is an effect impossible to do correctly with tabs alone.
Yes, PEP 8 is self-contradictory in that regard.
I also
On Fri, 04 Jul 2014 14:50:02 -0700, rxjwg98 wrote:
Hi,
I am learning a Python Tool from web:
http://www.ohwr.org/projects/hdl-make/wiki/Quick-start-new
Did you read that web page? It says:
To get the code you have two choices: you might clone the
repository, which contains the
On Thursday, July 3, 2014 12:31:04 PM UTC-5, Tobiah wrote:
Coworker takes PEP8 as gospel and uses 4 spaces snip
I'm saddened that every one of these little tabs versus
spaces arguments revolve more around selfishness and less
around an understanding of what a tabs and spaces
actually *are*,
[A continuation of my last reply...]
Here is a recent situation that occurred to me that showcases
the tendency of humans to carelessly bind illogical terms to
common objects, thereby creating a inverse esoteric of
ubiquitous illogic, in this case, the term: flash-light.
Your mail to 'sqlite-users' with the subject
hi
Is being held until the list moderator can review it for approval.
The reason it is being held:
Post by non-member to a members-only list
Either the message will get posted to the list, or you will receive
notification of the moderator's
Changes by Raymond Hettinger raymond.hettin...@gmail.com:
--
assignee: - rhettinger
nosy: +rhettinger
___
Python tracker rep...@bugs.python.org
http://bugs.python.org/issue21720
___
Mark Lawrence added the comment:
I've just tried this and didn't see anything about warnings.filters changed.
Full test run output in attached file.
--
nosy: +BreamoreBoy
Added file: http://bugs.python.org/file35848/Issue14784.log
___
Python
Mark Lawrence added the comment:
#13609 is closed fixed so can this also be closed? I've tried to reproduce
this on Windows with the help of unxutils but it didn't want to know, sorry :(
--
nosy: +BreamoreBoy
type: - behavior
versions: +Python 3.4, Python 3.5 -Python 3.3
Mark Lawrence added the comment:
A quick glance tells me the patch is okay, apart from the name
test_issue_XXX, so can we have a formal patch review please. See also #14743.
--
nosy: +BreamoreBoy
versions: +Python 3.4, Python 3.5 -Python 3.2
___
Mark Lawrence added the comment:
Can we have a formal patch review please, but note the similar patch on #14788.
--
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versions: +Python 3.4, Python 3.5 -Python 3.2, Python 3.3
___
Python tracker rep...@bugs.python.org
Mark Lawrence added the comment:
I'm still not brave enough to take on C code, but could this be handled by
someone from the core-mentorship list?
--
nosy: +BreamoreBoy
versions: +Python 3.4, Python 3.5 -Python 3.2, Python 3.3
___
Python tracker
Andy Maier added the comment:
Terry,
I'd like to comment on your statement:
3. By default, == and /= compare identities.
in msg148774.
What experiment lead you to that conclusion?
Here is one that contradicts it (using cpython 3.4.1):
i1 = 42
f1 = 42.0
i1 == f1
True
i1 is f1
False
Is it
Raymond Hettinger added the comment:
inverse' is probably more obvious to understand than 'area',
although it doesn't tie into the 'a' of 'acosh', etc.
Please don't make this gratuitous change. The decision about whether to use
inverse or arc was cast in stone when the functions were named
Changes by Raymond Hettinger raymond.hettin...@gmail.com:
--
assignee: rhettinger -
___
Python tracker rep...@bugs.python.org
http://bugs.python.org/issue21720
___
___
Arfrever Frehtes Taifersar Arahesis added the comment:
This bug is still reproducible in Python 3.4 and 3.5.
--
___
Python tracker rep...@bugs.python.org
http://bugs.python.org/issue14841
___
Berker Peksag added the comment:
Thanks Zachary! Here's a combined patch.
--
Added file: http://bugs.python.org/file35849/issue21906_v2.diff
___
Python tracker rep...@bugs.python.org
http://bugs.python.org/issue21906
Xavier de Gaye added the comment:
Sorry Xavier for your patches, but it's time to focus our efforts on a single
module and asyncio has a much better design to handle such use cases.
No problem. Thanks for taking your time to review patches made on this old
module.
--
Andy Maier added the comment:
Uploaded v5 of the patch.
Changes:
1. The statement that comparison of different built-in types (always) raises
TypeError, was too general. Changed to distinguish equal and order operators,
as summarized by Ezio in items 3) and 4) of msg148760.
2. Ensured max
Andy Maier added the comment:
It seems I still need to practice creating patches ... uploading v6 which
should create a review link. No other changes.
Sorry for that.
Andy
--
Added file: http://bugs.python.org/file35851/issue12067-expressions-py34_v6.diff
Berker Peksag added the comment:
Updated patch.
--
type: behavior - enhancement
Added file: http://bugs.python.org/file35852/issue9554_v3.diff
___
Python tracker rep...@bugs.python.org
http://bugs.python.org/issue9554
Andy Maier added the comment:
Another attempt. Really sorry...
--
Added file: http://bugs.python.org/file35853/issue12067-expressions-py34_v7.diff
___
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http://bugs.python.org/issue12067
Changes by Arve Knudsen arve.knud...@gmail.com:
--
nosy: +Arve.Knudsen
___
Python tracker rep...@bugs.python.org
http://bugs.python.org/issue21258
___
___
Arve Knudsen added the comment:
I noticed this issue too, thanks for fixing it!
--
___
Python tracker rep...@bugs.python.org
http://bugs.python.org/issue21258
___
___
Andy Maier added the comment:
Uploaded patch version py34_v2, which contains the following changes relative
to 3.4:
1. The changes in the description of list.sort() from default in list.sort(),
by adding this text:
(the arguments can be used for sort customization, see :func:`sorted` for
Andy Maier added the comment:
uploaded patch version py27_v2, which contains the same changes as py34_v2,
relative to 2.7, except for this differences:
1. The change from default was already in 2.7.
2. The reference to defining ordering methods for user-defined classes includes
a reference
New submission from ingrid:
Non-gui tests for turtle that Lita and I wrote.
--
components: Tests
files: test_turtle_textonly.patch
keywords: patch
messages: 82
nosy: ingrid, jesstess
priority: normal
severity: normal
status: open
title: Create unit tests for turtle textonly
R. David Murray added the comment:
There are reasons for both of these things. In 2.7 we generally used the []
notation for keyword arguments. In both, the timeout doesn't have a default
that it is possible to document using our standard notation, so we use the []
notation. If you can
Andy Maier added the comment:
I would like to revive this issue.
From the discussion, it seems to me that the following changes in the Python
Library documentation would make sense:
1. Move add_history() higher up in the sequence of functions, for example to
after write_history_file().
2.
Mark Dickinson added the comment:
Raymond: I don't think it's gratuitous. I'd be happy to replace the 'inverse'
by 'area' if that's what people prefer. But hyperbolic arc cosine is just
plain incorrect. (And the in radians bit is utterly nonsensical.)
--
Mark Lawrence added the comment:
Latest patch LGTM. Can we have a patch review please as #18864 is dependent on
this.
--
nosy: +BreamoreBoy
___
Python tracker rep...@bugs.python.org
http://bugs.python.org/issue19711
Mark Lawrence added the comment:
Latest patch LGTM at a quick glance. Can we have a patch review please as
#18864 is dependent on this.
--
nosy: +BreamoreBoy
___
Python tracker rep...@bugs.python.org
http://bugs.python.org/issue19714
Mark Lawrence added the comment:
Can we have a patch review please as #18864 is dependent on this.
--
nosy: +BreamoreBoy
___
Python tracker rep...@bugs.python.org
http://bugs.python.org/issue21099
___
Mark Lawrence added the comment:
I've asked for patch reviewss on the three dependencies outstanding, #19711,
#19714 and #21099.
--
___
Python tracker rep...@bugs.python.org
http://bugs.python.org/issue18864
___
New submission from repcsike:
Python is built with IBM XLC compiler, some tests fail and after installation
mathematical executions are giving bad results. I corrected the
_sysconfigdata.py bug (issue18235) with ld_so_aix , and found this out when
tried to install some modules.
Please see
Andy Maier added the comment:
I have reviewed the descriptions of the built-in functions in Python 3.4, and
found only the following issues w.r.t. missing __special__functions:
1. getattr(), setattr(), delattr(): They only refer to object attributes and
miss to mention the fallback to
Changes by Berker Peksag berker.pek...@gmail.com:
--
versions: +Python 3.5 -Python 3.4
___
Python tracker rep...@bugs.python.org
http://bugs.python.org/issue4972
___
___
Changes by Jeremy Kloth jeremy.kloth+python-trac...@gmail.com:
--
nosy: +jkloth
___
Python tracker rep...@bugs.python.org
http://bugs.python.org/issue21907
___
___
Stefan Krah added the comment:
I think you need to figure out the right build flags -- we had
an xlc build slave for a while that did not have this behavior.
The flags were quite complicated though.
--
nosy: +skrah
___
Python tracker
Lita Cho added the comment:
submitted a patch that tests all of this. Issue 21914
--
resolution: - duplicate
status: open - closed
___
Python tracker rep...@bugs.python.org
http://bugs.python.org/issue21743
___
paul j3 added the comment:
The documentation currently warns
https://docs.python.org/2/library/multiprocessing.html#windows
Safe importing of main module
Make sure that the main module can be safely imported by a new Python
interpreter without causing unintended side effects (such a
Serhiy Storchaka added the comment:
Agree.
--
resolution: - wont fix
___
Python tracker rep...@bugs.python.org
http://bugs.python.org/issue21844
___
___
Python-bugs-list
Serhiy Storchaka added the comment:
Sorry. Here is it.
--
keywords: +patch
Added file: http://bugs.python.org/file35857/capi_chain_exceptions.patch
___
Python tracker rep...@bugs.python.org
http://bugs.python.org/issue21715
Serhiy Storchaka added the comment:
Interesting, what result of getdouble?
import _tkinter
tk = _tkinter.create()
nan = float('nan')
tk.getdouble(nan)
nan
What returns getdouble() (note that _tkinter is imported instead of tkinter!)
for NaN value?
--
assignee: - serhiy.storchaka
Mark Lawrence added the comment:
Can we have a commit review on this please. I've already asked for reviews on
#18864 and its dependencies.
--
nosy: +BreamoreBoy
versions: +Python 3.5 -Python 3.4
___
Python tracker rep...@bugs.python.org
Andreas Schwab added the comment:
_tkinter.create().getdouble(float('nan'))
nan
--
___
Python tracker rep...@bugs.python.org
http://bugs.python.org/issue21881
___
___
Mark Lawrence added the comment:
There are 28 dependencies listed on #16510. 18 have already been closed,
presumably with patches committed but I haven't checked them all. 10 are still
open including this one. Can we have a decision now as to whether we move
forward with committing all of
Lita Cho added the comment:
Hi Terry, I started digging into this deeper and it looks like my tests doesn't
tear in Python 2.7. I have tried on Python 3.5 and 3.4 and it tears on those
versions.
I also tried the ttk objects, and the widgets also teared when I added frames.
Here is the code I
Lita Cho added the comment:
Should I file a bug? I feel like this a bug specifically related to Python 3
and Tkinter.
--
___
Python tracker rep...@bugs.python.org
http://bugs.python.org/issue21597
___
Serhiy Storchaka added the comment:
Updated patch has included recent changes from C implementation (issue21679 and
issue21090).
--
Added file: http://bugs.python.org/file35858/pyio_fileio_2.patch
___
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Changes by Serhiy Storchaka storch...@gmail.com:
--
resolution: - fixed
stage: patch review - resolved
status: open - closed
title: UTF-7 to UTF-8 decoding crash - UTF-7 can produce inconsistent Unicode
string
versions: +Python 2.7, Python 3.3, Python 3.4 -Python 3.2
Changes by Serhiy Storchaka storch...@gmail.com:
--
title: UTF-7 can produce inconsistent Unicode string - UTF-7 decoder can
produce inconsistent Unicode string
___
Python tracker rep...@bugs.python.org
http://bugs.python.org/issue19279
Serhiy Storchaka added the comment:
Som, what is full version of your Python?
--
___
Python tracker rep...@bugs.python.org
http://bugs.python.org/issue5712
___
___
New submission from Serhiy Storchaka:
Lib/test/test_tools.py becomes too large. It includes tests of unrelated
command-lines tools and scripts. It would be good to convert it to directory
containing separate test files for different tools.
--
components: Tests
messages: 222305
nosy:
Ned Deily added the comment:
If by tearing you mean leaving artifacts on the screen, differences in behavior
are almost certainly due to different versions of Tk being used. Tkinter is
really just a wrapper around calls to Tk; nearly all of the heavy-duty graphics
work is done by Tk making
Mark Lawrence added the comment:
I like the idea and the patch looks clean so can we have a commit review please.
--
nosy: +BreamoreBoy
versions: +Python 3.5 -Python 3.4
___
Python tracker rep...@bugs.python.org
http://bugs.python.org/issue17652
Mark Lawrence added the comment:
Can this be closed as out of date?
--
nosy: +BreamoreBoy
___
Python tracker rep...@bugs.python.org
http://bugs.python.org/issue17773
___
Mark Lawrence added the comment:
LGTM so can we have a commit review please.
--
nosy: +BreamoreBoy
___
Python tracker rep...@bugs.python.org
http://bugs.python.org/issue17055
___
Terry J. Reedy added the comment:
In py3, *everything* is an instance of class object. This makes like simple
than in 2.x. The default comparison rules are set by the rich comparison
methods of object. 'By experiment' meant by experiments with instances of
object, which use those default
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