[issue26181] argparse can't handle positional argument after list (help message is wrong)

Changes by SilentGhost : -- nosy: +bethard versions: +Python 3.5, Python 3.6 -Python 3.4 ___ Python tracker ___

Re: import locale and print range on same line

This works also but I thought it was possible to do it easier: import locale; locale.setlocale(locale.LC_ALL, ""); print('\n'.join(locale.format("%2f", i, 1) for i in range(1,20,4))) -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

[issue26098] PEP 510: Specialize functions with guards

STINNER Victor added the comment: Patch version 4: * Keywords are now supported everywhere and tested by unit tests * Inline specode_check() into PyFunction_GetSpecializedCode() -- Added file: http://bugs.python.org/file41702/specialize-4.patch ___

[issue26146] PEP 511: Add ast.Constant to allow AST optimizer to emit constants

Roundup Robot added the comment: New changeset 5de1bd759f3b by Victor Stinner in branch 'default': Issue #26146: marshal.loads() now uses the empty frozenset singleton https://hg.python.org/cpython/rev/5de1bd759f3b -- nosy: +python-dev ___ Python

[issue26149] Suggest PyCharm Community as an editor for Unix platforms

Ezio Melotti added the comment: The two links for VIM and Emacs are useful for Unix developers that happen to use these editors, but I agree that we should link to the wiki instead of having other links to specific editors. If we want to recommend a few specific ones, we could list their names

[issue26177] tkinter: Canvas().keys returns empty strings.

Serhiy Storchaka added the comment: > Is avoiding splitlist calls when not needed worthwhile? We can't guarantee that future release of Tk wouldn't return a list of strings. Calling splitlist() for a tuple is cheap (but looks cumbersome). > I am a bit curious why Canvas gives a different

locale and for loop on same line

Can someone tell me why this doesn't work? import locale; locale.setlocale(locale.LC_ALL, ""); for i in range(1,20,4): print(locale.format("%2f", i, 1)) It gives an error: SyntaxError: invalid syntax (highlighting the word 'for') I need this code on one and the same line. However when I

[issue25907] Documentation i18n: Added trans tags in sphinx templates

Julien added the comment: @haypo: And here is the patch for 2.7, and here is the result of the patch applied and new msgids translated: http://www.afpy.org/doc/python/2.7/ -- Added file: http://bugs.python.org/file41699/trans-tags-in-2.7.patch ___

Re: import locale and print range on same line

2016-01-23 11:36 GMT+01:00 Marko Rauhamaa : > rai...@gmail.com: > >> Can someone tell me why next code doesn't work? >> >> import locale; locale.setlocale(locale.LC_ALL, ""); for i in >> range(1,20,4): print(locale.format("%2f", i, 1)) >> >> It gives an error: SyntaxError:

[issue25907] Documentation i18n: Added trans tags in sphinx templates

Roundup Robot added the comment: New changeset 72edb81e456b by Victor Stinner in branch '2.7': doc: i18n HTML templates https://hg.python.org/cpython/rev/72edb81e456b -- ___ Python tracker

Re: one more question on regex

2016-01-22 23:47 GMT+01:00 mg : > Il Fri, 22 Jan 2016 21:10:44 +0100, Vlastimil Brom ha scritto: > >> [...] > > You explanation of re.findall() results is correct. My point is that the > documentation states: > > re.findall(pattern, string, flags=0) > Return all

[issue26146] PEP 511: Add ast.Constant to allow AST optimizer to emit constants

STINNER Victor added the comment: > New changeset 5de1bd759f3b by Victor Stinner in branch 'default': > Issue #26146: marshal.loads() now uses the empty frozenset singleton > https://hg.python.org/cpython/rev/5de1bd759f3b This change is not directly related to this issue. It's required by

Re: import locale and print range on same line

On Sun, Jan 24, 2016 at 12:07 AM, Steven D'Aprano wrote: > On Sat, 23 Jan 2016 09:02 pm, rai...@gmail.com wrote: > >> However I need to put the code on one single line. > > Why? Is the Enter key on your keyboard broken? Maybe it's for a python -c invocation. ChrisA --

Re: import locale and print range on same line

The reason why I want to have it on onto one line has nothing to do with my question, "why doesn't it work on one line" :) But if you want to know it, I use this python code in the commandline of a texteditor :) Btw.. thank you all for your help. Very happy with it :) --

[issue26149] Suggest PyCharm Community as an editor for Unix platforms

Georg Brandl added the comment: > The doc section is woefully incomplete and unix-specific. That might be because the doc section is called "Using Python on Unix platforms". -- nosy: +georg.brandl ___ Python tracker

[issue25907] Documentation i18n: Added trans tags in sphinx templates

INADA Naoki added the comment: O/T Hi, Julien. I'm maintainer of Python Document Japanese translation project. (http://docs.python.jp/ ) We use Transifex to ease many volunteers working on translating. https://www.transifex.com/python-doc-ja/python-35/dashboard/ Repository of Python 3.5

[issue25907] Documentation i18n: Added trans tags in sphinx templates

Julien added the comment: @naoki Not sure, but with those patches you'll may be able to translate the documentation without forking it. Like we're doing here: https://github.com/afpy/python_doc_fr Also did you contacted the upstream to ask them if they want to cross-link your versions ?

[issue26185] zipfile.ZipInfo slots can raise unexpected AttributeError

Changes by SilentGhost : -- stage: -> patch review ___ Python tracker ___ ___

[issue26185] zipfile.ZipInfo slots can raise unexpected AttributeError

Changes by SilentGhost : -- nosy: +alanmcintyre, serhiy.storchaka, twouters ___ Python tracker ___

[issue26183] 2.7.11 won't clean install on Windows 10 x64

Changes by SilentGhost : -- components: +Windows nosy: +paul.moore, steve.dower, tim.golden, zach.ware ___ Python tracker ___

[issue26146] PEP 511: Add ast.Constant to allow AST optimizer to emit constants

STINNER Victor added the comment: @Serhiy: Would you mind reviewing constant-2.patch? I reviewed my own patch and added some comments, I found a refleak ;-) -- ___ Python tracker

Re: How to simulate C style integer division?

On 22/01/16 04:48, Steven D'Aprano wrote: [ ... ] math.trunc( float(a) / b ) That fails for sufficiently big numbers: py> a = 3**1000 * 2 py> b = 3**1000 py> float(a)/b # Exact answer should be 2 Traceback (most recent call last): File "", line 1, in OverflowError: long int too large

Re: import locale and print range on same line

On Sat, 23 Jan 2016 09:02 pm, rai...@gmail.com wrote: > However I need to put the code on one single line. Why? Is the Enter key on your keyboard broken? -- Steven -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

[issue19883] Integer overflow in zipimport.c

STINNER Victor added the comment: Serhiy Storchaka added the comment: > Updated patch addresses Victor's comments and adds (mandatory now) > parenthesis. Thank you Victor. Do you mean braces {...}? The new patch looks good to me, thanks for taking all my comments in account ;-) --

Re: How to simulate C style integer division?

def intdiv(a, b): return (a - (a % (-b if a < 0 else b))) / b Duh ... Got confused with modulos (again). def intdiv(a, b): return (a - (a % (-abs(b) if a < 0 else abs(b / b -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: import locale and print range on same line

On Sun, 24 Jan 2016 12:19 am, Chris Angelico wrote: > On Sun, Jan 24, 2016 at 12:07 AM, Steven D'Aprano > wrote: >> On Sat, 23 Jan 2016 09:02 pm, rai...@gmail.com wrote: >> >>> However I need to put the code on one single line. >> >> Why? Is the Enter key on your keyboard

[issue19883] Integer overflow in zipimport.c

Serhiy Storchaka added the comment: Updated patch addresses Victor's comments and adds (mandatory now) parenthesis. Thank you Victor. -- assignee: -> serhiy.storchaka Added file: http://bugs.python.org/file41697/zipimport_int_overflow_4.patch ___

[issue26185] zipfile.ZipInfo slots can raise unexpected AttributeError

New submission from Matthew Zipay: The zipfile.ZipInfo.__init__ method permits several of ZipInfo's slot attributes to go uninitialized unless the object is obtained from ZipFile.getinfo() or ZipFile.infolist(). As a result, accessing those attributes (header_offset, CRC, compress_size, or

Re: import locale and print range on same line

rai...@gmail.com: > Can someone tell me why next code doesn't work? > > import locale; locale.setlocale(locale.LC_ALL, ""); for i in > range(1,20,4): print(locale.format("%2f", i, 1)) > > It gives an error: SyntaxError: invalid syntax --> indicating 'for' > > However I need to put the code on one

[issue25907] Documentation i18n: Added trans tags in sphinx templates

STINNER Victor added the comment: > @haypo: And here is the patch for 2.7, and here is the result of the patch > applied and new msgids translated: http://www.afpy.org/doc/python/2.7/ Thanks. I also pushed this change. @INADA Naoki, @Julien: Don't hesitate to bug me if you want to push other

import locale and print range on same line

Can someone tell me why next code doesn't work? import locale; locale.setlocale(locale.LC_ALL, ""); for i in range(1,20,4): print(locale.format("%2f", i, 1)) It gives an error: SyntaxError: invalid syntax --> indicating 'for' However I need to put the code on one single line. When I separate

[issue26182] Deprecation warnings for the future async and await keywords

Changes by SilentGhost : -- components: +asyncio nosy: +giampaolo.rodola, gvanrossum, haypo, pitrou, yselivanov ___ Python tracker

Re: locale and for loop on same line

According to the documentation, "...simple statements may occur on a single line separated by semicolons." The "for" statement is a compound, not simple, statement. Would it be possible to place your statements in a function and then you would just need to invoke the function? Bev in TX On

Re: import locale and print range on same line

On Sun, Jan 24, 2016 at 12:45 AM, Steven D'Aprano wrote: > On Sun, 24 Jan 2016 12:19 am, Chris Angelico wrote: > >> On Sun, Jan 24, 2016 at 12:07 AM, Steven D'Aprano >> wrote: >>> On Sat, 23 Jan 2016 09:02 pm, rai...@gmail.com wrote: >>> However I

[issue26058] PEP 509: Add ma_version to PyDictObject

STINNER Victor added the comment: Patch version 6: remove now unused function _testcapi.dict_set_version(). I also moved tests to test_pep509.py to make it more explicit that the implementation of the PEP 509 is not part the Python dictionary type specification, other Python implementations

[issue26145] PEP 511: Add sys.set_code_transformers()

STINNER Victor added the comment: > Note: ast.PyCF_TRANSFORMED_AST is not implemented yet. Additionnal pycf_transformed_ast.patch implements it. The patch should be applied on top of transformers-4.patch. Note: PyCF_TRANSFORMED_AST has the same value (0x1000) than the old constant

Re: How to simulate C style integer division?

Grobu writes: >> def intdiv(a, b): >> return (a - (a % (-b if a < 0 else b))) / b >> >> > > Duh ... Got confused with modulos (again). > > def intdiv(a, b): > return (a - (a % (-abs(b) if a < 0 else abs(b / b You should use // here to get an exact integer result. --

Re: Question about asyncio and blocking operations

"Frank Millman" wrote in message news:n8038j$575$1...@ger.gmane.org... So I thought I would ask here if anyone has been through a similar exercise, and if what I am going through sounds normal, or if I am doing something fundamentally wrong. Thanks for any input Just a quick note of

[issue26187] sqlite3 trace callback prints duplicate line

New submission from Aviv Palivoda: I am running the following script: -- >>> import sqlite3 >>> import os >>> import time >>> con1 = sqlite3.connect("/tmp/test.db") >>> con2 = sqlite3.connect("/tmp/test.db") >>> con1.set_trace_callback(print) >>> cur =

Re: pip install mitmproxy - fails on watchdog-0.8.3.tar.gz with "Permission denied" error (Python 2.7.11 on Win XP SP3);

On Sun, Jan 24, 2016 at 6:43 AM, Steve Petrie, P.Eng. wrote: > In case other Windows XP "orphans" want to use mitmdump, here's what I > learned (via Google): > > I changed the bang line (wrapping the pathname in double quotes) in file > mitmdump-script.py: > > from: #!e:\a

FW: Bill Sconce memorial, SAT 13 FEB, Boire Field, Nashua, NH

:-( -- Forwarded message -- From: mad...@li.org Date: Sat, Jan 16, 2016 at 2:11 PM Subject: Bill Sconce obituary and memorial date (February 13th at Boire Field, Nashua, NH) To: "Linux, Greater" Cc: "Hall, Jon"

Re: Question about asyncio and blocking operations

On Sun, Jan 24, 2016 at 1:38 AM, Frank Millman wrote: > I find I am bumping my head more that I expected, so I thought I would try > to get some feedback here to see if I have some flaw in my approach, or if > it is just in the nature of writing an asynchronous-style

Re: How to simulate C style integer division?

On 23/01/16 16:07, Jussi Piitulainen wrote: Grobu writes: def intdiv(a, b): return (a - (a % (-b if a < 0 else b))) / b Duh ... Got confused with modulos (again). def intdiv(a, b): return (a - (a % (-abs(b) if a < 0 else abs(b / b You should use // here to get an exact

Re: import locale and print range on same line

On Sun, Jan 24, 2016 at 1:03 AM, Ramo wrote: > The reason why I want to have it on onto one line has nothing to do with my > question, "why doesn't it work on one line" :) > > But if you want to know it, I use this python code in the commandline of a > texteditor :) Called

pip install mitmproxy - fails on watchdog-0.8.3.tar.gz with "Permission denied" error (Python 2.7.11 on Win XP SP3);

Greetings To Python-list, I'm trying to install Python package: mitmproxy (https://mitmproxy.org/) on Windows XP SP3. I'm a complete Python newbie. Not planning to do any Python programming at this time. Just trying to get package mitmproxy working (or at least the mitmdump component,

Re: Question about asyncio and blocking operations

On Sat, Jan 23, 2016 at 8:44 AM, Ian Kelly wrote: > This is where it would make sense to me to use callbacks instead of > subroutines. You can structure your __init__ method like this: Doh. s/subroutines/coroutines -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

[issue26169] Pasting 900000 chars into a tk Entry widget fails

Soufiane BOUSSALI added the comment: thanks terry reedy For Fixing This Stack Overflow :) -- ___ Python tracker ___

Re: pip install mitmproxy - fails on watchdog-0.8.3.tar.gz with "Permission denied" error (Python 2.7.11 on Win XP SP3);

On Fri, Jan 22, 2016 at 3:40 AM, Steve Petrie, P.Eng. wrote: > In both failure cases, it looks to me like there is a bug in the pip logic, > that is using a *nix forward slash "/" instead of a double backslash "\\" > before the file name "make.bat". I'm not sure what your

[issue26186] LazyLoader rejecting use of SourceFileLoader

Brett Cannon added the comment: One way to possibly improve this is to remove the create_module() check and replace it with a warning if create_module() doesn't return None. Another option is to use an assert statement. The final option is to just drop the check entirely, although that can

[issue26186] LazyLoader rejecting use of SourceFileLoader

Changes by Brett Cannon : -- nosy: +eric.snow, ncoghlan ___ Python tracker ___ ___

Re: Question about asyncio and blocking operations

On Sat, Jan 23, 2016 at 7:38 AM, Frank Millman wrote: > Here is the difficulty. The recommended way to handle a blocking operation > is to run it as task in a different thread, using run_in_executor(). This > method is a coroutine. An implication of this is that any method

[issue26183] 2.7.11 won't clean install on Windows 10 x64

Steve Dower added the comment: This is trying to remove 2.7.10, so I guess it's not as clean as you think. You'll need to repair the 2.7.10 install (not just reinstall it - it has to be the right version so you can choose repair) and then try again. --

Re: Same function but different names with different set of default arguments

Às 07:30 de 21-01-2016, Paulo da Silva escreveu: > Hi all. > > What is the fastest implementation of the following code? > > def g(p): > ... > return something > > def f1(p="p1"): > return g(p) > > def f2(p="p2"): > return g(p) > Thanks to all who responded. I'll try

Question about asyncio and blocking operations

Hi all I am developing a typical accounting/business application which involves a front-end allowing clients to access the system, a back-end connecting to a database, and a middle layer that glues it all together. Some time ago I converted the front-end from a multi-threaded approach to an

Release of PyGreSQL version 4.2

The PyGreSQL team is please to announce release 4.2 of PyGreSQL. It is available at: http://pygresql.org/files/PyGreSQL-4.2.tgz. If you are running NetBSD, look in the packages directory under databases for py-postgresql. There should also be a package in the FreeBSD ports collection. Please

Deprecation warning for async and await

I enabled the deprecation warning in Python 3.5.1 and Python 3.6 dev, but I did not get any warning when assigning to async or await: $ python -Wd -c "import sys; print(sys.version); async = 33" 3.5.1 (default, Jan 21 2016, 19:59:28) [GCC 4.8.4] Is it normal? -- Marco Buttu INAF-Osservatorio

[issue26186] LazyLoader rejecting use of SourceFileLoader

New submission from Brett Cannon: It was privately reported to me that importlib.util.LazyLoader rejects using importlib.machinery.SourceFileLoader (or at least _frozen_importlib.SourceFileLoader). At least a test should be added for LazyLoader to make sure it will happily accept

Install Numba on Debian

I'd like to install Numba on Debian Jessie to work with the system Python 2.7.9 (rather than installing Anaconda). When I follow the instructions at https://github.com/numba/numba#custom-python-environments ...I get errors when trying to install Numba either with the git clone method or

How do I add 18 seconds ISO-8301 String in Python?

How do I add 18 seconds to this string in Python? 2000-01-01T16:36:25.000Z -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

[issue26189] Interpreter returns control to cmd.exe early

Zachary Ware added the comment: What version of Python are you using, where did you get it from, and what version of Windows are you using? -- components: +Windows nosy: +paul.moore, steve.dower, tim.golden, zach.ware ___ Python tracker

Calculating longitudinal acceleration, lateral acceleration and normal acceleration

Is there a python library to calculate longitudinal acceleration, lateral acceleration and normal acceleration? Thanks. -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: How do I add 18 seconds to an ISO-8601 String in Python?

Thank you so much! Btw, how do I convert back to ISO-8301? -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: import locale and print range on same line

On Sun, Jan 24, 2016 at 1:45 PM, Terry Reedy wrote: > C:\Users\Terry>python -c "for i in range(5):\n\tprint('hello world')" > File "", line 1 > for i in range(5):\n print('hello world') > ^ > SyntaxError: unexpected character

[issue26189] Interpreter returns control to cmd.exe early

Ivan Pozdeev added the comment: This also happens when running interactively - so the interactive interpreter has to be run from a non-console program to be usable. This doesn't happen with other programs (e.g. Cygwin bash) or IPython console. -- title: Non-interactive interpreter

[issue26160] Tutorial incorrectly claims that (explicit) relative imports don't work in the main module

Kevin Norris added the comment: >It could be misleading saying “the name of the current package”, because the >import could be relative to the a higher level parent package if more than one >dot is specified. While this is correct, Python still uses __package__ to determine what to import in

Re: How do I add 18 seconds to an ISO-8601 String in Python?

Robert James Liguori writes: (I've corrected the Subject field. The standard you're referring to is ISO 8601, I believe.) > How do I add 18 seconds to this string in Python? > > 2000-01-01T16:36:25.000Z Two separate parts: * How do I get a timestamp object from a text

[issue23076] list(pathlib.Path().glob("")) fails with IndexError

Thomas Nyberg added the comment: I added a patch which causes glob to raise a ValueError exception if it is called with an empty string. I also added a test verifying the change and have run all the tests and they pass. Though I've been reading the developer guide, I'm a bit unfamiliar with

[issue26186] LazyLoader rejecting use of SourceFileLoader

Changes by Keith Dart : -- nosy: +kdart ___ Python tracker ___ ___ Python-bugs-list

Re: Question about how to do something in BeautifulSoup?

On Fri, Jan 22, 2016 at 8:01 AM, inhahe wrote: > Say I have the following HTML (I hope this shows up as plain text here > rather than formatting): > > "Is > today the day?" > > And I want to extract the "Is today the day?" part. There are other places > in the document with and

Re: Install Numba on Debian

Dave Farrance wrote: >I'd like to install Numba on Debian Jessie to work with the system >Python 2.7.9 (rather than installing Anaconda). OK, never mind. Fixed. By Googling the first error code, finding a suggested fix for that, running again, Googling the new error,

[issue26188] Provide more helpful error message when `await` is called inside non-`async` method

New submission from Nicholas Chammas: Here is the user interaction: ```python $ python3 Python 3.5.1 (default, Dec 7 2015, 21:59:10) [GCC 4.2.1 Compatible Apple LLVM 7.0.0 (clang-700.1.76)] on darwin Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information. >>> def oh_hai(): ...

Re: How do I add 18 seconds to an ISO-8601 String in Python?

Oh... How do I convert it back to ISO 8301? -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: How do I add 18 seconds to an ISO-8601 String in Python?

I cant thank you enough -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

[issue26189] Non-interactive interpreter returns control to cmd.exe early

New submission from Ivan Pozdeev: When running python.exe from windows console non-interactively, cmd.exe prompt appears immediately after starting: C:\>python -c "import time; time.sleep(2); print 'bla-bla-bla'" C:\>bla-bla-bla Not only this prevents from cmd to setting ERRORLEVEL to the

[issue26074] Add a method to pip.. pip.require("package_name")

Blaize Rhodes added the comment: Righto.. will talk to the pip dudes. Thanks for your time. (@matrixise The reason I posted this here is because pip is included as part of the cpython distribution. None of the documentation I've seen suggests that this isn't a forum for discussing the std

Re: import locale and print range on same line

On 1/23/2016 8:58 AM, Chris Angelico wrote: On Sun, Jan 24, 2016 at 12:45 AM, Steven D'Aprano wrote: On Sun, 24 Jan 2016 12:19 am, Chris Angelico wrote: On Sun, Jan 24, 2016 at 12:07 AM, Steven D'Aprano wrote: On Sat, 23 Jan 2016 09:02 pm,

Re: How do I add 18 seconds to an ISO-8601 String in Python?

On 01/23/2016 07:22 PM, Robert James Liguori wrote: > Thank you so much! Btw, how do I convert back to ISO-8301? Have a look at the documentation for the datetime module. The docs will tell you how you can convert to a string, formatted to your specifications and needs. As always, the

Re: Calculating longitudinal acceleration, lateral acceleration and normal acceleration

Showing any bits of input would help us help you. Your question also seems too vague. Almost a "how to optimize". -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

[issue26189] Interpreter returns control to cmd.exe early

Steve Dower added the comment: That'd suggest a change in the link options since 2.7.10, probably SUBSYSTEM. Or possibly there's a config option that prevents allocating a console correctly on startup. FWIW, I don't think WinXP 64-bit was ever considered trustworthy, so it may be a bug in

Re: Calculating longitudinal acceleration, lateral acceleration and normal acceleration

On Sunday 24 January 2016 11:27, Robert James Liguori wrote: > Is there a python library to calculate longitudinal acceleration, lateral > acceleration and normal acceleration? Calculate acceleration of what? I think we need some more detail before we can give a sensible answer, but you could

[issue26189] Interpreter returns control to cmd.exe early

Ivan Pozdeev added the comment: Python 2.7.11 (v2.7.11:6d1b6a68f775, Dec 5 2015, 20:40:30) [MSC v.1500 64 bit (AMD64)] on win32 WinXP x64 SP2 I also tested with PowerShell 1.0. Python opens another window, but the shell's prompt also shows up immediately. --

Re: How do I add 18 seconds to an ISO-8601 String in Python?

Robert James Liguori writes: > Thank you so much! Btw, how do I convert back to ISO-8301? You are consistently referring to “ISO 8301”, but I am confident that you are not intending to talk about: ISO 8301: Thermal insulation -- Determination of steady-state

[issue26189] Interpreter returns control to cmd.exe early

Eryk Sun added the comment: Try forcing cmd to wait using the "start" command: C:\>start /b /w python -c "raise SystemExit(42)" C:\>echo %errorlevel% 42 -- nosy: +eryksun ___ Python tracker

Re: Calculating longitudinal acceleration, lateral acceleration and normal acceleration

Second attempt. On Sunday 24 January 2016 11:27, Robert James Liguori wrote: > Is there a python library to calculate longitudinal acceleration, lateral > acceleration and normal acceleration? Calculate acceleration of what? I think we need some more detail before we can give a sensible