On 21/05/2017 21:46, Chris Angelico wrote:
On Mon, May 22, 2017 at 5:32 AM, bartc <b...@freeuk.com> wrote:
Why are you so afraid of
multiple source files?
[When other people build your app from sources]
Because then they are likely to need automation to deal with it. And
that intr
that only had a C compiler as a requirement, and nothing
else. Unless I'm missing something.
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On 21/05/2017 17:51, breamore...@gmail.com wrote:
On Saturday, May 20, 2017 at 10:56:17 PM UTC+1, bartc wrote:
I am still also sticking with the belief that you know about as much
about programming as the RUE knows about unicode. What major projects
have you worked on? Actually what have
s, fast memory, fast storage, fast
connections, nor super-optimising compilers.
And we wouldn't have people spending considerable efforts on tracing
JITs as used for Javascript or the PyPy project for Python.
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keyboard). /And/ you have to select a suitable format code. Suddenly,
having to type:
print (a)
doesn't seem so bad.
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for print to be a
little special.
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prices. The increase would actually be
just over 2.1% (a £100 ex-VAT price increases from £117.50 to £120.00).
Etc.
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looked at me and said proudly "$10.03 is your
change."
My bill in a store came to £3.20 (GBP3.20), so I handed over £10.20.
I was given back £16.90 in change!
It turned out the cashier had entered £20.10 as the amount tendered. It
was sorted out in the end.
Sometimes its easier not
et(,value):
a = value
set(x,100)
Here the type of x is irrelevant anyway. It doesn't even need to be
initialised to anything first (that might violate something in Python, I
don't know what).
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ew of "intuitiveness". It's much easier to tell what's
going on, at a glance, in a C++ program.
You're being serious, aren't you?
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ven:
A = [10,20,30]
B = ["X","Y","Z"]
and wanting to swap A[0] and B[2]. Although these being list elements,
they /could/ be exchanged via a function:
def swapelems(a,i,b,j):
a[i],b[j]=b[j],a[i]
swapelems(A,0,B,2)
Just not using a general-purpose swap function.
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utable.
(To make it work would require a new reference type. And extra versions
of the byte-codes or whatever is used to evaluate terms such as:
a, a[i], x.y
that evaluate a reference rather than the value. So LOADFASTREF as well
as LOADFAST)
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On 06/10/2017 18:42, Chris Angelico wrote:
On Sat, Oct 7, 2017 at 4:13 AM, bartc <b...@freeuk.com> wrote:
So what's the excuse for an unresponsive text display in 2017?
Got it. You assume that a system is a coherent computer with its
peripherals, rather than being a networked coll
On 06/10/2017 15:55, Chris Angelico wrote:
On Fri, Oct 6, 2017 at 11:38 PM, bartc <b...@freeuk.com> wrote:
Have you ever worked on a slow remote session where a GUI is
completely impracticable (or maybe even unavailable), and redrawing
the screen is too expensive to do all the tim
On 05/10/2017 14:13, Steve D'Aprano wrote:
On Thu, 5 Oct 2017 10:51 pm, bartc wrote:
Am I allowed to say that it all seems a bit of a mess?
You may or may not be pleased to learn that there's a push to create a "record
like" or "struct like" datatype for Python 3.7
On 06/10/2017 14:11, Peter J. Holzer wrote:
On 2017-10-06 12:38, bartc <b...@freeuk.com> wrote:
On 06/10/2017 12:51, Chris Angelico wrote:
What you REALLY mean is that you can't see the point of an interactive
sort command. It doesn't fit into your workflow. And that's fine. It's
not som
On 06/10/2017 14:35, Paul Moore wrote:
On 6 October 2017 at 13:56, bartc <b...@freeuk.com> wrote:
If you don't like the word 'crude', try 'lazy'. Take this example of the gcc
C compiler:
> gcc -E program.c
This preprocesses the code and shows the result. Typical programs will
On 06/10/2017 18:55, Marko Rauhamaa wrote:
bartc <b...@freeuk.com>:
The internal utilities used within an operating system, primarily
intended for file or redirected i/o with no live interaction, should be
distinct from those designed to be used directly with a live user.
Or is it a
On 06/10/2017 20:38, Grant Edwards wrote:
On 2017-10-06, bartc <b...@freeuk.com> wrote:
For sort, there is no real need. You use a text editor to create
your data. Then use existing file-based sort.
I sort streams on stdin far more often than I sort named files.
So what's been estab
On 06/10/2017 20:21, Chris Angelico wrote:
On Sat, Oct 7, 2017 at 5:51 AM, bartc <b...@freeuk.com> wrote:
If you're stuck, whip out a tablet computer or smartphone (they should still
function without connectivity) and use a preloaded text editor. Or just
compose and then save an email
On 07/10/2017 15:40, Steve D'Aprano wrote:
On Sat, 7 Oct 2017 11:54 pm, bartc wrote:
So my programs that use Escape on Windows needed
to use Escape Escape on Linux to get around that.
Or you could just follow the expected Unix interface instead of inventing your
own.
Your job is to port
On 08/10/2017 10:12, Steve D'Aprano wrote:
On Sun, 8 Oct 2017 02:06 am, bartc wrote:
Thousands of Python programmers on Windows successfully learned to use Ctrl-Z
ENTER back in the days of Python 1.5, before quit/exit were added as a
convenience for beginners, and many of them probably still
OS. And I believe each file works with any C compiler.
(Actually, I just found it had a dependency on a Windows time function;
I've removed that temporarily for this upload.)
See the pattern here? Simplicity not complexity. Consideration for
others by making life easier.)
--
bart
On 08/10/2017 13:05, Chris Angelico wrote:
On Sun, Oct 8, 2017 at 10:46 PM, bartc <b...@freeuk.com> wrote:
Just look at any interactive page on the web, they all work differently.
People are used to it. And it allows innovation.
Maybe it's just that you're not old enough to have
On 08/10/2017 17:13, Chris Angelico wrote:
On Mon, Oct 9, 2017 at 2:01 AM, bartc <b...@freeuk.com> wrote:
However as graphics became more mainstream then yes I did adopt some
commonly expected styles (menubars for example). As for Alt-F4, if that
generates a WM_CLOSE message for example,
On 07/10/2017 00:43, Steve D'Aprano wrote:
On Sat, 7 Oct 2017 12:24 am, bartc wrote:
print ("Enter blank expression to quit.")
I *despise* programs that do that, and would cheerfully and unapologetically
take their designers, disguise them as a lettuce, and stake them out to
On 08/10/2017 19:10, Chris Angelico wrote:
On Mon, Oct 9, 2017 at 3:50 AM, bartc <b...@freeuk.com> wrote:
You assume that since
*you* have never needed to produce one lower-case letter in a block of
upper-case, that "probably no one else has", and then you make it
eans."
Exactly the same could be said of pretty much any of the advanced
features that /have/ been added.
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ss loop from a loop-and-a-half.
My proposed while-do has a less chaotic structure. It wouldn't preclude
'break' from still being used, but there would be less need.
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least
half a dozen different ideas for implementing what the OP really wanted
to do, which was expressed using C-like syntax. None of which were as
obvious.
And that C-like one worked because it could use an assignment within a
while-condition.
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On 04/10/2017 06:32, Steve D'Aprano wrote:
On Wed, 4 Oct 2017 02:00 am, bartc wrote:
Does all this advanced stuff (which I don't understand and which doesn't
look very appealing either; hopefully I will never come across such
code) still count as programming?
I could not have hoped to see
On 04/10/2017 14:41, Ian Kelly wrote:
On Wed, Oct 4, 2017 at 5:07 AM, bartc <b...@freeuk.com> wrote:
For that matter, I don't think Python has such a feature either. So that you
write for example:
const C = 123345
and then whenever C appears within the code, it's imple
. And in your example, which I don't really understand, it
seems more like the headache of the application.
(Where a language allows elements of a program to be disseminated across
a network, that's rather different, and an advanced feature that only
some languages might have. Not all.)
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On 09/10/2017 01:37, boB Stepp wrote:
On Sun, Oct 8, 2017 at 5:36 AM, bartc <b...@freeuk.com> wrote:
And Bart, when large numbers of technical experts in their fields have
spent many hours/months/years, yea, even several decades, developing
these software systems, why do you think th
yellow= 201
but it's not hard. Although it might not be worth doing until a program
is finished. Compare to:
red = 1
green = 2
blue = 3
turquoise = 4
yellow = 201
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oop. There isn't a dedicated
statement for that, the closest Python feature would be 'for i in
range(n)' with i a dummy loop variable.
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write to
it will cause a crash. On my home-made system, they just did nothing.
Much more graceful.
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On 15/10/2017 12:20, Chris Angelico wrote:
On Sun, Oct 15, 2017 at 9:15 PM, bartc <b...@freeuk.com> wrote:
I assume you're talking about the while-loop (because on my machine, it
hangs just using 'from turtle...' or 'import turtle').
(Machine was screwed up I think, as I had to r
On 05/10/2017 12:29, Gregory Ewing wrote:
bartc wrote:
Result? You can't just look at my 'any' class and see what fields it
uses. You can't even just look at the static source code. You have to
run the program to find out. And it might be different each time.
You can usually get a pretty
On 05/10/2017 12:09, Chris Angelico wrote:
On Thu, Oct 5, 2017 at 9:56 PM, bartc <b...@freeuk.com> wrote:
This doesn't make sense. For interactive use, you wouldn't bother testing
for eof, as you'd be testing the eof status of the keyboard.
You mean the way heaps and heaps of Unix pr
ot;Bye")
This is a loop-and-a-half.
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On 05/10/2017 18:01, Chris Angelico wrote:
On Thu, Oct 5, 2017 at 10:26 PM, bartc <b...@freeuk.com> wrote:
On 05/10/2017 12:09, Chris Angelico wrote:
On Thu, Oct 5, 2017 at 9:56 PM, bartc <b...@freeuk.com> wrote:
This doesn't make sense. For interactive use, you wouldn't bo
g such a program will only run on the programmer's
machine and not a million consumer machines who would also need to fork
out for extra memory. Their salaries may not stretch as far.)
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On 06/10/2017 12:04, Rhodri James wrote:
On 05/10/17 19:45, bartc wrote:
Yes, I tried typing 'sort' in Linux, where it apparently hangs (same
on Windows actually). The reason: because it might have killed someone
to have added a message saying what you are expected to type and how
to end
rolling up the screen
while it's doing so.
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d here, and even a reference to team[2] won't help.
Presumably there is no other way to do an in-place deletion of an
element of a list. (Inserting an element is different.)
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= anything# any other undefined name
which is currently not allowed.
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e like that work now?
BTW, when you're developing a new bit of hardware or software, and
you're not part of team, then the user-base is normally just yourself.
Nothing wrong with that, but you seem to like belittling people with
such comments. What was the userbase when GvR started Python?
that same algorithm?
We mustn't forget the person writing the code, who may have a certain
type in mind for X, but their (I nearly said 'his') analysis may not
match the compiler's.
Annotations can be useful.
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On 13/10/2017 15:59, Julien Salort wrote:
Le 12/10/2017 à 17:57, bartc a écrit :
With a const struct, you are stopped from directly modifying elements,
but if an element is a pointer, nothing stops you writing to what the
pointer points to, unless that has a const target too. And then you've
On 13/10/2017 14:16, Chris Angelico wrote:
On Sat, Oct 14, 2017 at 12:00 AM, bartc <b...@freeuk.com> wrote:
Even if data is actually in write-protected memory, attempts to write to it
will cause a crash. On my home-made system, they just did nothing. Much more
graceful.
The novice thin
be accessed as:
i.spam
So this would be a const attribute.
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me actually; there is zero cost to devising,
implementing and using the most helpful syntax, and actually there are
real benefits. So why use something so bizarre?
(**This is my actual language but as someone guessed, this part is
derived from Algol68.)
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ightly complex type, it won't work (the head of a linked list for
example, where the node elements need to be writeable). It gives a false
sense of security.
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On 12/10/2017 11:39, Stefan Ram wrote:
bartc <b...@freeuk.com> writes:
(1) Define named constants; except (in C) they can't be used like
constant expressions, you can take their addresses, and accidentally or
maliciously change their values.
When I think of »const«, I do not think
nd endless loops are
probably used more with short test programs than in final applications,
so having a very quick way to express them is convenient.)
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On 16/10/2017 18:46, Michael Torrie wrote:
On 10/16/2017 11:21 AM, bartc wrote:
del x effectively removes it from the namespace so trying to use it on
line 4 generates the same 'undefined' error.
However, the byte-code still needs to be aware of x: at the time when
line 1 is executed, the byte
On 17/10/2017 01:53, Steve D'Aprano wrote:
On Tue, 17 Oct 2017 03:16 am, Oren Ben-Kiki wrote:
That doesn't explain why `del` isn't a method though.
`del` cannot be a method or a function, because the argument to `del` is the
name of the variable, not the contents of the variable.
If we
read-only memory like a ROM. And it might have trouble going into a
memory page with read-only attributes.
'const' tries to do too many things, most of them poorly, although it
does a very good job at adding clutter.
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the caller as there is no way to get
from X's box to A's box. And the strings to the object are one-way.
In the case of fn(A+2), a new object is created (with value '3', or an
existing '3' might be used), a new string is attached to it, and the
other is attached to X.
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wn( 'Abbeville' ),
town( 'Addison' ),
state( 'Arizona' ),
town( 'Apache Junction' ),
town( 'Avondale' ),
town( 'Benson' )
)
This pretends they are arguments to a dummy function. But it probably
won't work with anything that isn't also an expression.
--
bartc
--
takes
time.
If it recalculates 'last' once for each of those couple of dozen printed
lines, that I doubt accessing a few MB of memory is the issue. More
doing such a big calculation.
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On 02/10/2017 14:54, Peter Otten wrote:
bartc wrote:
On 02/10/2017 08:41, Peter Otten wrote:
Daniel Bastos wrote:
def make_sequence_non_recursive(N, x0 = 2, c = -1):
"What's wrong with this function? It's very slow."
last = x0
def sequence():
nonlocal last
(and fun, a lot of it), and
the second is the usual lot of tools and technologies that programmers
seems to have to know about these days (and not so much fun).
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On 28/09/2017 12:31, Steve D'Aprano wrote:
On Thu, 28 Sep 2017 09:12 pm, bartc wrote:
And I have little interest in most of this lot (my eyes glaze over just
reading some of these):
> - how to use operating systems
You've never used a system call? Written to a file? Moved the mo
code) still count as programming?
It seems to me the equivalent of an advanced driving course teaching you
how to customise your car rather than involving any actual driving.
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000)
println p.bytes# 16
It's not Pythonic, but it is pretty handy
(I know Python can also do structs like this but it appeared to be quite
a slog last time I looked.)
I guess my kind of coding is somewhat less esoteric than the kind of
thing I typically see in Python here.
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e by
line or by byte won't work.
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).
Other replies suggest that deleting the import [name] doesn't affect any
data it contains. So might as well move it to the top where it belongs.
del mystuff
import mystuff
mystuff.some_more_expensive_stuff( x )
You'll have to comment these lines out first I think.
--
bartc
On 07/10/2017 01:14, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
bartc <b...@freeuk.com> writes:
On 06/10/2017 14:35, Paul Moore wrote:
On 6 October 2017 at 13:56, bartc <b...@freeuk.com> wrote:
If you don't like the word 'crude', try 'lazy'. Take this example of the gcc
C compiler:
> g
On 07/10/2017 02:46, Steve D'Aprano wrote:
On Sat, 7 Oct 2017 06:18 am, bartc wrote:
For sort, there is no real need. You use a text editor to create your
data. Then use existing file-based sort.
What you mean is, *you* see no need for sorting interactively, or sorting as
part of a pipeline
On 07/10/2017 14:19, Steve D'Aprano wrote:
On Sat, 7 Oct 2017 11:06 pm, bartc wrote:
Ctrl-K to enter "operate on selected text" mode;
Y to Delete
Ctrl-K to enter "operate on selected text" mode;
R to Read from a file (at last an actual mnemonic command!)
enter a file nam
r. Then the same with the next page. I think I did a 350-page
manual like that. With pictures.
My current language doesn't link its 'print' to graphic displays or images.)
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On 07/10/2017 09:35, Steve D'Aprano wrote:
On Sat, 7 Oct 2017 11:05 am, bartc wrote:
Um, that actually follows what interactive Python does.
What is "that" to which you refer?
If you mean, "what I, Bart C, suggested, namely having the program exit on a
blank line"
On 06/10/2017 12:51, Chris Angelico wrote:
On Fri, Oct 6, 2017 at 10:41 PM, bartc <b...@freeuk.com> wrote:
> What you REALLY mean is that you can't see the point of an interactive
> sort command. It doesn't fit into your workflow. And that's fine. It's
> not something you'd
On 06/10/2017 12:45, Chris Angelico wrote:
On Fri, Oct 6, 2017 at 9:32 PM, bartc <b...@freeuk.com> wrote:
(And properly, by being given the same of an actual file rather than using
crude redirection.)
Why do you call redirection "crude"? Do you not understand the value
of g
On 07/10/2017 17:28, Steve D'Aprano wrote:
On Sun, 8 Oct 2017 01:15 am, bartc wrote:
You do remember this was about using programs /like/ sort as a model for
writing true interactive scrolling text apps?
I don't remember any such thing. I remember you *claiming* that, but if anyone
actually
On 07/10/2017 14:19, Steve D'Aprano wrote:
On Sat, 7 Oct 2017 11:06 pm, bartc wrote:
So I have to copy 33,000 lines from a document,
Don't be daft. Nobody says that stdin is a sufficient interface for a
heavy-weight task like that. With 33000 lines of text, I absolutely would
save them
On 07/10/2017 15:45, Grant Edwards wrote:
On 2017-10-07, bartc <b...@freeuk.com> wrote:
Interactive Python requires quit() or exit(), complete with parentheses.
Nonsense. On Unix you can just press ctrl-D (or whatever you have
configured as eof) at the command prompt. On windows, it'
On 05/10/2017 23:42, Gregory Ewing wrote:
bartc wrote:
It can be done with an in-band end-of-data code,
Then you need some way of escaping that in-band code, in case
it happens to equal some of the data you want to sort.
It needn't be a big deal. You can do this (you have to in Python
rror, divide string by string
.1e10 1e5 # 1.00
ten twenty # error, divide string by string
For throwaway programs, or for testing, or for trusted input, this is
perfectly reasonable. For perfect error checking, you need to do a bit
more work on either verifying input, or using mo
On 11/10/2017 23:03, Gregory Ewing wrote:
bartc wrote:
tokenrec * (*)[]
>
the original source and that type is written like this:
ref [] ref tokenrec
The idiomatic way to write that type in C would be
tokenrec **
The original has an extra pointer so idiomatic C mi
.
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On 11/10/2017 15:36, Chris Angelico wrote:
On Thu, Oct 12, 2017 at 1:14 AM, bartc <b...@freeuk.com> wrote:
Python, maybe. C syntax isn't as painful as C++ but I still have a lot of
trouble with it. (Eg. the variable declaration 'char(*(*x[3])())[5]'. The
name of the variable can be
On 11/10/2017 15:52, breamore...@gmail.com wrote:
On Wednesday, October 11, 2017 at 3:14:51 PM UTC+1, bartc wrote:
On 11/10/2017 14:16, Marko Rauhamaa wrote:
Python and C don't try to protect you. In return, you get syntactic
convenience that probably enhances the quality of your programs
On 11/10/2017 17:16, Jonathan Cast wrote:
On Wed, 2017-10-11 at 15:14 +0100, bartc wrote:
On 11/10/2017 14:16, Marko Rauhamaa wrote:
Python and C don't try to protect you. In return, you get syntactic
convenience that probably enhances the quality of your programs.
Python, maybe. C syntax
o int64'.
The line includes two dereferences (^^) which /I think/ account for two
of the "*" in the C version. Which * are dereferences, and which are
part of the type, or indeed whether only one * is the dereference, I
have absolutely no idea. Great language...)
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in one language that doesn't
exist in the other. Surely it's better to have neither the cryptic type
nor the typedef. Everything would be much cleaner.
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up being
used to mark the end of text files, I don't know.]
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element is a pointer, nothing stops you writing to what the
pointer points to, unless that has a const target too. And then you've
going to have problems doing normal updates. This constness just
insinuates itself everywhere.
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argument).
What does the second argument do?
I thought Load and Store were of equal rank.
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On 17/10/2017 21:05, Chris Angelico wrote:
On Wed, Oct 18, 2017 at 3:19 AM, bartc <b...@freeuk.com> wrote:
On 17/10/2017 16:44, Terry Reedy wrote:
In CPython left-hand expressions are not merely quoted for runtime
evaluation and use. They are parsed at compile time and compiled to
On 27/11/2017 13:57, Chris Angelico wrote:
On Mon, Nov 27, 2017 at 10:38 PM, bartc <b...@freeuk.com> wrote:
Your decoder was straight-up buggy, and tests would have proven this.
I created my Python version after the abysmal results from other Python
decoders I tried which didn'
On 27/11/2017 12:54, Cai Gengyang wrote:
Input :
count = 0
if count < 5:
print "Hello, I am an if statement and count is", count
while count < 10:
print "Hello, I am a while and count is", count
count += 1
Output :
Hello, I am an if statement and count is 0
Hello, I am a while and
On 27/11/2017 03:04, Michael Torrie wrote:
On 11/26/2017 08:39 AM, bartc wrote:
The problem was traced to two lines that were in the wrong order (in the
original program). I can't see how unit tests can have helped in any way
at all, and it would probably have taken much longer.
What makes
On 27/11/2017 17:41, Chris Angelico wrote:
On Tue, Nov 28, 2017 at 2:14 AM, bartc <b...@freeuk.com> wrote:
JPEG uses lossy compression. The resulting recovered data is an
approximation of the original.
Ah but it is a perfect representation of the JPEG stream. Any given
compressed strea
ing into sys.fn() uses the same
CALL_FUNCTION byte-code as calling into a regular Python function.)
As I said, it's not pure. More of a jungle as you've found out.)
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boards will already take care of those.
But which keyboards will have π [copied from the one above!]?
Apart perhaps from the ones in Greece, where π might already be heavily
used in the same way we use 'p'.
--
bartc
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On 25/11/2017 16:07, Michael Torrie wrote:
On 11/25/2017 06:00 AM, bartc wrote:
And there's a quite lot left of the rest of the program to worry about too!
If you add 'window()' at the end of the program, then it seems to run on
Python 3. I'd play around with it first before thinking up
On 26/11/2017 14:23, Chris Angelico wrote:
On Mon, Nov 27, 2017 at 1:11 AM, bartc <b...@freeuk.com> wrote:
The way I write code isn't incrementally top down or bottom up. It's
backwards and forwards. Feedback from different parts means the thing
develops as a whole. Sometimes parts are
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