Hello again, people
On Feb 11, 6:30 pm, Francis Carr wrote:
> > I can't believe the code editing situation today is in a such sorry
> > state.
>
> I can't believe an old coder is feeling so sorry for himself.
Ok, I'm feeling sorry; still, I think I made a point.
> > Today, I tried to understan
In article <4b743340$0$20738$426a7...@news.free.fr>,
Bruno Desthuilliers wrote:
>
>Ever read "worst is better" ?-)
Nope -- maybe you mean "worse is better"?
http://www.jwz.org/doc/worse-is-better.html
(Nitpicking because you need the correct term to search.)
--
Aahz (a...@pythoncraft.com)
In article ,
Steve Holden wrote:
>bartc wrote:
>> "Arnaud Delobelle" wrote in message
>> news:m28wb6ypfs@googlemail.com...
>>> "Gabriel Genellina" writes:
Note the *literal* part. If you (the programmer) is likely to know the
parameter value when writing the code, then the f
> I can't believe the code editing situation today is in a such sorry
> state.
I can't believe an old coder is feeling so sorry for himself.
> Today, I tried to understand the twisted.web.client code and I found 3
> methods I couldn't find by who were called.
>
> I asked on the mailing list and t
catonano a écrit :
(snip)
Today, I tried to understand the twisted.web.client code and I found 3
methods I couldn't find by who were called.
I asked on the mailing list and they suggested me where they were
called and that the tool for such thing is "grep".
So, you grep, you get a list of files
catonano wrote:
> You know what I'm doing now ? I'm drawing the map of
> twisted.web.client on a paper with a pencil :-(
You're a programmer. Why are you complaining about the problem instead
of endeavouring to solve it?
--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
catonano wrote:
[... much wishing for the "good old day" of SmallTalk ...]
> Today, I tried to understand the twisted.web.client code and I found 3
> methods I couldn't find by who were called.
>
> I asked on the mailing list and they suggested me where they were
> called and that the tool for suc
Vladimir,
On Feb 3, 12:10 pm, Vladimir Ignatov wrote:
> Hello,
>
> I am sitting here for quite some time, but usually keep silent ;-) I
> Finally I develop a feeling that strong instrumentation / tools can
> bring us the best of two worlds. That I am dreaming on is an absolute
> new type/class
On Feb 3, 7:38 pm, Phlip wrote:
> On Feb 3, 10:57 am, Adam Tauno Williams
> wrote:
>
> > > Current editors suck because they can't see into the code and browse
> > > it - unless it's so statically typed it's painful.
>
> > ? I edit Python in MonoDevelop 2.2; and I can browse my file,
> > class
bartc wrote:
> "Arnaud Delobelle" wrote in message
> news:m28wb6ypfs@googlemail.com...
>> "Gabriel Genellina" writes:
>>
>>> En Fri, 05 Feb 2010 19:22:39 -0300, bartc escribió:
"Steve Holden" wrote in message
news:mailman.1998.1265399766.28905.python-l...@python.org...
> Arnau
En Sat, 06 Feb 2010 22:34:14 -0300, bartc escribió:
"Arnaud Delobelle" wrote in message
news:m28wb6ypfs@googlemail.com...
"Gabriel Genellina" writes:
Note the *literal* part. If you (the programmer) is likely to know the
parameter value when writing the code, then the function is actu
* Steven D'Aprano:
On Sun, 07 Feb 2010 01:34:14 +, bartc wrote:
For a real-world example, it means instead of having a room with a
light-switch in it, if I *know* I want the light on or off, I should
have two rooms: one with the light permanently on, and one with it
permanently off, and jus
On Sun, 07 Feb 2010 01:34:14 +, bartc wrote:
> For a real-world example, it means instead of having a room with a
> light-switch in it, if I *know* I want the light on or off, I should
> have two rooms: one with the light permanently on, and one with it
> permanently off, and just walk into th
"Arnaud Delobelle" wrote in message
news:m28wb6ypfs@googlemail.com...
"Gabriel Genellina" writes:
En Fri, 05 Feb 2010 19:22:39 -0300, bartc escribió:
"Steve Holden" wrote in message
news:mailman.1998.1265399766.28905.python-l...@python.org...
Arnaud Delobelle wrote:
Robert Kern writ
"Gabriel Genellina" writes:
> En Fri, 05 Feb 2010 19:22:39 -0300, bartc escribió:
>> "Steve Holden" wrote in message
>> news:mailman.1998.1265399766.28905.python-l...@python.org...
>>> Arnaud Delobelle wrote:
Robert Kern writes:
> I prefer Guido's formulation (which, naturally, I
En Fri, 05 Feb 2010 19:22:39 -0300, bartc escribió:
"Steve Holden" wrote in message
news:mailman.1998.1265399766.28905.python-l...@python.org...
Arnaud Delobelle wrote:
Robert Kern writes:
I prefer Guido's formulation (which, naturally, I can't find a direct
quote for right now): if you e
On Fri, 05 Feb 2010 22:22:39 +, bartc wrote:
> "Steve Holden" wrote in message
> news:mailman.1998.1265399766.28905.python-l...@python.org...
>> Arnaud Delobelle wrote:
>>> Robert Kern writes:
>>>
I prefer Guido's formulation (which, naturally, I can't find a direct
quote for right
bartc wrote:
>
> "Steve Holden" wrote in message
> news:mailman.1998.1265399766.28905.python-l...@python.org...
>> Arnaud Delobelle wrote:
>>> Robert Kern writes:
>>>
I prefer Guido's formulation (which, naturally, I can't find a direct
quote for right now): if you expect that a boolea
On 2010-02-05 16:22 PM, bartc wrote:
"Steve Holden" wrote in message
news:mailman.1998.1265399766.28905.python-l...@python.org...
Arnaud Delobelle wrote:
Robert Kern writes:
I prefer Guido's formulation (which, naturally, I can't find a direct
quote for right now): if you expect that a boo
"Steve Holden" wrote in message
news:mailman.1998.1265399766.28905.python-l...@python.org...
Arnaud Delobelle wrote:
Robert Kern writes:
I prefer Guido's formulation (which, naturally, I can't find a direct
quote for right now): if you expect that a boolean argument is only
going to take *
Arnaud Delobelle wrote:
> Robert Kern writes:
>
>> I prefer Guido's formulation (which, naturally, I can't find a direct
>> quote for right now): if you expect that a boolean argument is only
>> going to take *literal* True or False, then it should be split into
>> two functions.
>
> So rather t
Robert Kern writes:
> I prefer Guido's formulation (which, naturally, I can't find a direct
> quote for right now): if you expect that a boolean argument is only
> going to take *literal* True or False, then it should be split into
> two functions.
So rather than three boolean arguments, would y
> http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/message.php?msg_name=9c768dc61001121642t5bd1a7ddmd1fe9e088e1d9...@mail.gmail.com
Thanks a lot! That is a great reference (a must read for everybody
interested). Reading just this: "Internally at Google we have a
language-neutral representation shared by all our
> That is partially why I created this search engine for python, to see
> what parameters other people feed in.
> http://nullege.com/
Thank you for excellent effort! I found it very useful and start using
it on almost everyday basis. It's much simple to learn from real live
examples.
Vladimir Ign
> This is obvious even in the Python documentation itself where one
> frequently asks oneself "Uhh... so what is parameter X supposed to be...
> a string... a list... ?"
>
That is partially why I created this search engine for python, to see
what parameters other people feed in.
http://nullege.co
On Thu, Feb 4, 2010 at 1:13 PM, Vladimir Ignatov wrote:
>>> > […] system "knows" all your identifiers and just regenerates
>>> > relevant portions of text from internal database-alike
>>> > representation.
>>
>> You will probably want to learn about “refactoring” to see if that's
>> related to wha
>> > […] system "knows" all your identifiers and just regenerates
>> > relevant portions of text from internal database-alike
>> > representation.
>
> You will probably want to learn about “refactoring” to see if that's
> related to what you mean http://www.refactoring.com/>.
I mean if system actu
Robert Kern writes:
> It is perfectly reasonable (and often necessary) for the unit test of
> class B to use a mock object instead of a real A() instance. The unit
> test for class B will fail to catch the renaming of A.foo() to A.bar()
> because it never tries to call .foo() on a real A instance
Steven D'Aprano writes:
> On Wed, 03 Feb 2010 18:48:12 +0300, Vladimir Ignatov wrote:
> > […] system "knows" all your identifiers and just regenerates
> > relevant portions of text from internal database-alike
> > representation.
You will probably want to learn about “refactoring” to see if that
Adam Tauno Williams wrote:
> This is obvious even in the Python documentation itself where one
> frequently asks oneself "Uhh... so what is parameter X supposed to be...
> a string... a list... ?"
Could you provide an actual example to support this?
The only places I tend to see 'x' as a paramet
Vladimir Ignatov wrote:
>> can you sketch an example/use case more concretely?
>
> Sorry, I don't have anything written down. I just have some rough idea
> of implementation and some concrete features I would like to see in
> such system. For example:
>
> 1) Instant refactoring. No more needs fo
On 2010-02-03 18:01 PM, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
On Wed, 03 Feb 2010 16:38:21 -0600, Robert Kern wrote:
class.method(name, count)
Obviously? I don't know about that. Being told that "count" is an int
doesn't really help me -- it's obvious just from the name. In a well-
written API, what else co
On Wed, 03 Feb 2010 16:38:21 -0600, Robert Kern wrote:
>>> class.method(name, count)
>>
>> Obviously? I don't know about that. Being told that "count" is an int
>> doesn't really help me -- it's obvious just from the name. In a well-
>> written API, what else could it be?
>
> A bool. As in tellin
On 2010-02-03 15:37 PM, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
On Wed, 03 Feb 2010 08:18:40 -0500, Adam Tauno Williams wrote:
On Wed, 2010-02-03 at 14:10 +0300, Vladimir Ignatov wrote:
Hello,
I am sitting here for quite some time, but usually keep silent ;-) I
use Python since 2003 both "professionally" and f
On 2010-02-03 15:40 PM, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
On Wed, 03 Feb 2010 06:42:52 -0800, Paul Rubin wrote:
One nice trick with static types is if you change
what the method does (even if its type signature doesn't change), you
can rename the method:
class.method2(string name, int count): # chan
On 2/3/2010 8:18 AM, Adam Tauno Williams wrote:
class.method(sting name, int count)
- is *obviously* more expressive than -
class.method(name, count)
So write
class.method(name:str, count:int)->return_type # 3.x
if you really prefer.
In spite of you disparagement of 'pythonistas', it seem
Vladimir Ignatov writes:
>> I guess Vladimir means what's called a structure editor. The (by me)
>> aforementioned Synthesizer Generator is an example of such an editor
>> (environment).
>
> Maybe. Yes, it kind of "generator". It has (entered somehow) internal
> representation of target program.
Steven D'Aprano writes:
>> and recompile your codebase. Every place in the code that called
>> 'method' now gets a compile time "undefined method" error that you can
>> examine to see if you need to update it. This is something you can't
>> catch with unit tests because the call sites can be in
On Wed, 03 Feb 2010 10:39:53 -0500, Adam Tauno Williams wrote:
> On Wed, 2010-02-03 at 16:23 +0100, Stef Mientki wrote:
>> Yes, it certainly does. Not that you'll get many Pythonistas
>> to confess
>> to that fact. Somehow those who brag about the readability and
>>
On Wed, 03 Feb 2010 18:48:12 +0300, Vladimir Ignatov wrote:
> Imagine simple operation like "method renaming" in a simple "dumb"
> environment like text editor + grep. Now imagine how simple it can be if
> system "knows" all your identifiers and just regenerates relevant
> portions of text from i
On Wed, 03 Feb 2010 06:42:52 -0800, Paul Rubin wrote:
> One nice trick with static types is if you change
> what the method does (even if its type signature doesn't change), you
> can rename the method:
>
>class.method2(string name, int count): # change 'method' to
>'method2'
>
> and re
On Wed, 03 Feb 2010 08:18:40 -0500, Adam Tauno Williams wrote:
> On Wed, 2010-02-03 at 14:10 +0300, Vladimir Ignatov wrote:
>> Hello,
>> I am sitting here for quite some time, but usually keep silent ;-) I
>> use Python since 2003 both "professionally" and for my hobby projects
>> and love it a mu
> I guess Vladimir means what's called a structure editor. The (by me)
> aforementioned Synthesizer Generator is an example of such an editor
> (environment).
Maybe. Yes, it kind of "generator". It has (entered somehow) internal
representation of target program. Then it generates code out of this
On 2010-02-03 14:40 PM, Robert wrote:
Vladimir Ignatov wrote:
dynamic-type languages. Instead of current text-oriented IDEs, it
should be a database-centric and resemble current CAD systems instead
of being just "fancy text editor". Source text should be an output
product of that CAD and not a "
> can you sketch an example/use case more concretely?
Sorry, I don't have anything written down. I just have some rough idea
of implementation and some concrete features I would like to see in
such system. For example:
1) Instant refactoring. No more needs for manual
search/inspect/rename. Since
Robert writes:
> Vladimir Ignatov wrote:
>> dynamic-type languages. Instead of current text-oriented IDEs, it
>> should be a database-centric and resemble current CAD systems instead
>> of being just "fancy text editor". Source text should be an output
>> product of that CAD and not a "source mat
Phlip writes:
> John Bokma wrote:
>
>> my $x = ( 5, "hello", sub {}, [], {} )[ int rand 5 ];
>>
>> what's $x? The answer is: it depends.
>
> That's why my blog post advocated (as usual for me) developer tests.
> Then you either mock the rand, like all developers should, or you get
> what you pay
John Bokma wrote:
> my $x = ( 5, "hello", sub {}, [], {} )[ int rand 5 ];
>
> what's $x? The answer is: it depends.
That's why my blog post advocated (as usual for me) developer tests.
Then you either mock the rand, like all developers should, or you get
what you pay for, and Principle of Least S
Vladimir Ignatov wrote:
dynamic-type languages. Instead of current text-oriented IDEs, it
should be a database-centric and resemble current CAD systems instead
of being just "fancy text editor". Source text should be an output
product of that CAD and not a "source material" itself.
can you sket
Phlip writes:
> On Feb 3, 10:57 am, Adam Tauno Williams
> wrote:
>
>> > Current editors suck because they can't see into the code and browse
>> > it - unless it's so statically typed it's painful.
>>
>> ? I edit Python in MonoDevelop 2.2; and I can browse my file,
>> classes, etc... So I don
On Feb 3, 10:57 am, Adam Tauno Williams
wrote:
> > Current editors suck because they can't see into the code and browse
> > it - unless it's so statically typed it's painful.
>
> ? I edit Python in MonoDevelop 2.2; and I can browse my file,
> classes, etc... So I don't know what you mean by "
On Wed, 2010-02-03 at 10:05 -0800, Phlip wrote:
> On Feb 3, 3:10 am, Vladimir Ignatov wrote:
> > Finally I develop a feeling that strong instrumentation / tools can
> > bring us the best of two worlds. That I am dreaming on is an absolute
> > new type/class of IDE suitable for Python and potential
On 03-02-2010 18:21, Vladimir Ignatov wrote:
Imagine simple operation like "method renaming" in a simple "dumb"
environment like text editor + grep. Now imagine how simple it can be
if system "knows" all your identifiers and just regenerates relevant
portions of text from internal database-alike
Vladimir Ignatov writes:
> Finally I develop a feeling that strong instrumentation / tools can
> bring us the best of two worlds. That I am dreaming on is an absolute
> new type/class of IDE suitable for Python and potentially for other
> dynamic-type languages. Instead of current text-oriented I
On Feb 3, 3:10 am, Vladimir Ignatov wrote:
> Finally I develop a feeling that strong instrumentation / tools can
> bring us the best of two worlds. That I am dreaming on is an absolute
> new type/class of IDE suitable for Python and potentially for other
> dynamic-type languages. Instead of curre
>> Imagine simple operation like "method renaming" in a simple "dumb"
>> environment like text editor + grep. Now imagine how simple it can be
>> if system "knows" all your identifiers and just regenerates relevant
>> portions of text from internal database-alike representation.
>>
>
> I think ever
-Original Message-
From: Vladimir Ignatov
Sent: 03/02/2010 7:24:26 pm
Subject: Re: Dreaming of new generation IDE
> This is obvious even in the Python documentation itself where one
> frequently asks oneself "Uhh... so what is parameter X supposed to be...
> a st
On 03-02-2010 16:48, Vladimir Ignatov wrote:
I don't see what the advantage of the use of a database is in a fairly
linear hierarchical structure like python objects and modules.
Imagine simple operation like "method renaming" in a simple "dumb"
environment like text editor + grep. Now ima
> I don't see what the advantage of the use of a database is in a fairly
> linear hierarchical structure like python objects and modules.
Imagine simple operation like "method renaming" in a simple "dumb"
environment like text editor + grep. Now imagine how simple it can be
if system "knows" all y
On Wed, 2010-02-03 at 16:23 +0100, Stef Mientki wrote:
> Yes, it certainly does. Not that you'll get many Pythonistas
> to confess
> to that fact. Somehow those who brag about the readability
> and
> expressiveness of source code just cannot admit that:
>
Finally I develop a feeling that strong instrumentation / tools can
> bring us the best of two worlds. That I am dreaming on is an absolute
> new type/class of IDE suitable for Python and potentially for other
> dynamic-type languages. Instead of current text-oriented IDEs, it
> should be a databa
On Wed, Feb 3, 2010 at 10:18 PM, Adam Tauno Williams
wrote:
> On Wed, 2010-02-03 at 14:10 +0300, Vladimir Ignatov wrote:
>> Hello,
>> I am sitting here for quite some time, but usually keep silent ;-) I
>> use Python since 2003 both "professionally" and for my hobby projects
>> and love it a much.
> Yes, it certainly does. Not that you'll get many Pythonistas to confess
> to that fact. Somehow those who brag about the readability and
> expressiveness of source code just cannot admit that:
>
> class.method(sting name, int count)
>
> - is *obviously* more expressive than -
>
> class.method(n
> The maintenance thing may be true but for me that doesn't outweigh the
> clear benefits I get from using Python i.s.o. e.g. C++: the fact that
> I have much less code that is more compact and for me more directly
> readable is a clear advantage when doing maintance on code I didnt
> touch for a w
Jean-Michel Pichavant writes:
> class.method(string name, int count):
> """Return the cap'tain's age.
>
>name: a string giving the name of the cap'tain daughter
>count: an int giving the number of fingers left in the cap'tain
> right hand
> """
>
> In python, attributes/parameters have no
On Feb 3, 12:10 pm, Vladimir Ignatov wrote:
> Hello,
>
> I am sitting here for quite some time, but usually keep silent ;-) I
> use Python since 2003 both "professionally" and for my hobby projects
> and love it a much.
> I notice however, that "maintaining" existing/older python code is may
> be
> This is obvious even in the Python documentation itself where one
> frequently asks oneself "Uhh... so what is parameter X supposed to be...
> a string... a list... ?"
Exactly. Often I don't need to know the exact type, but to figure out
that "kind of type" it is.
>> should be a database-centri
Adam Tauno Williams wrote:
Yes, it certainly does. Not that you'll get many Pythonistas to confess
to that fact. Somehow those who brag about the readability and
expressiveness of source code just cannot admit that:
class.method(sting name, int count)
- is *obviously* more expressive than -
Adam Tauno Williams, 03.02.2010 14:18:
> This is obvious even in the Python documentation itself where one
> frequently asks oneself "Uhh... so what is parameter X supposed to be...
> a string... a list... ?"
>
> Not knocking Python; Python is great. I maintain a rapidly growing
> Python code ba
Paul Rubin, 03.02.2010 14:07:
>> Instead of current text-oriented IDEs, it
>> should be a database-centric and resemble current CAD systems
>
> I've never used a current CAD system, so I can't make any sense of this.
> I don't see how databases would help.
Just like they help in current IDEs t
On Wed, 2010-02-03 at 14:10 +0300, Vladimir Ignatov wrote:
> Hello,
> I am sitting here for quite some time, but usually keep silent ;-) I
> use Python since 2003 both "professionally" and for my hobby projects
> and love it a much.
> I notice however, that "maintaining" existing/older python code
Vladimir Ignatov writes:
> I notice however, that "maintaining" existing/older python code is may
> be not so enjoyable task. It may be even harder than supporting old
> code written in some type of "static" languages (like Java or C++).
> Surely "dynamic" nature of python comes with price.
Yes,
Hello,
I am sitting here for quite some time, but usually keep silent ;-) I
use Python since 2003 both "professionally" and for my hobby projects
and love it a much.
I notice however, that "maintaining" existing/older python code is may
be not so enjoyable task. It may be even harder than supporti
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