Re: Help Required for Choosing Programming Language
On Feb 24, 7:04 pm, Thomas Bartkus [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Most user apps. require 95% of coding effort to provide a usable user interface and 5% effort on the algorithmic meat. The afterwards you allude to. So why do we still endure so much programming effort on the unimportant part? Why should a programmer waste even so much as 10% of his effort to throw together a standard interface with ordinary textboxes, labels, and option buttons? Over and over again? That is why at least two modern GUI toolkits (Microsoft's 'avalon' and GTK with GLADE) export the GUI as an XML-resource from a graphical GUI designer. It then takes only a line of code to import the GUI and another to register the event handlers. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Help Required for Choosing Programming Language
On Mon, 19 Feb 2007 08:03:43 -0800, Andy Dingley wrote: snip GUI-based is fairly unimportant as it's just how you build your programs, not what they do afterwards Most user apps. require 95% of coding effort to provide a usable user interface and 5% effort on the algorithmic meat. The afterwards you allude to. So why do we still endure so much programming effort on the unimportant part? Because elegent algorithms require bullet proof and intuitive user interfaces or people won't use or buy your software. snip GUI programs are less important now than they were a few years ago, owing to the huge importance of the web and HTML. Now with html the programming load rises to about 99.8% effort for the user interface and 0.2% on the algorithmic core. All that coding effort wasted on a user interface that looks and works like crap. The top poster is quite correct to ask for a system like VB6 that banishes the problem of user interface coding to the trivial role it deserves. Why should a programmer waste even so much as 10% of his effort to throw together a standard interface with ordinary textboxes, labels, and option buttons? Over and over again? Thomas Bartkus -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Help Required for Choosing Programming Language
Mark Morss a écrit : On Feb 16, 4:22 pm, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I am VB6 programmer and wants to start new programming language but i am unable to deciced. i have read about Python, Ruby and Visual C++. but i want to go through with GUI based programming language like VB.net so will you please guide me which GUI based language has worth with complete OOPS Characteristics will wait for the answer hope to have a right direction from you Programmer Good grief. I suppose it is Microsoft to whom we owe the idea that there could be such a thing as a GUI based programming language. Maybe HyperCard (and its language, HyperTalk) come before VB (SuperCard and MetaCard too)... and its Apple... Whatever we - as professional developers - think about these tools/languages - its very nice to allow not-developers people to build the tools they need, even if these are not perfect in a conceptual view, these are software with users' need filled. Note: I agree, in professionnal world with software service during long years, with software growing to manage more and more tasks, some languages and tools are better than others. Different needs, different personal experience, different skills... different languages. L.Pointal. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Help Required for Choosing Programming Language
On Feb 18, 7:35 pm, Dave Cook [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 2007-02-16, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: i have read about Python, Ruby and Visual C++. but i want to go through with GUI based programming language like VB.net You might take a look athttp://dabodev.com Dave Cook Learn python, and then learn wxpython (python binding of wxWidgets). wxWidgets is one of the most extensive and well built gui tools (in my opinion) and is easier to implement in python than C++ (also my opinion). The only reason I can see for using C++ over Python for gui building is if for some obscure reason Python wasn't fast enough. On the other hand, this brings up the argument of which is faster: Python or C++ ;) so let's not get into that. Python + WxPython = Good Language with Good GUI Toolkit. Cheers, Jordan -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Help Required for Choosing Programming Language
On Feb 17, 1:34 am, Stef Mientki [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: - designing the GUI will cost me about 2 .. 3 times as much in Python Use a design tool like GLADE for PyGTK, wxGlade for wxPython or Komodo for tkinter. The more of the GUI code you can remove from your functional code the better. GUI code tends to clutter up the functional code. Have you ever tried to make changes in an MFC project? The optimal solutions are Microsoft's 'Avalon' and GTK/ libglade, where all GUI code are placed inside an XML resource. The second thing is that GUIs are made very differently in Python and traditional Windows tools like Delphi and VS.NET. Most Python toolkit have a concept of 'layout managers' that will size and lay out the widgets for you. In Delphi and VB you will typically drag and drop controls on a form, and use anchors and docking and manually size the controls. You are therefore much more dependent on graphical GUI design in these environments. In Python toolkits, the layout manager do all this work for you. Layout managers are also found in Java toolkits like Swing and SWT. In order to make effective GUIs in Python you must learn to use these, and forget about all the bad habits Delphi thought you. Try to imagine the GUI as a tree of containers, where the widgets reside on the leafs, instead of controls dropped on a form. When you can do that in your head, you can make GUIs more quickly in Python than VB or Delphi. The main advantages to using layout managers are: GUIs are less tedious to develop, you don't have to worry about resizing and adapting to different screen sizes, and large projects become easier to maintain. - Python is not capable of doing everything I need (almost all interactive actions are very primitive and crashes a lot) - designing my other functional code in Python, will reduce the development time with an estimated factor of 2 So the combination of Delphi (or VB) and Python seems the optimal combination for heavily GUI's. - one of the big problems with Python is the version differences (compatibility) In one of the other threads, Dabo was meant as a GUI designer, I tried it yesterday, and although it looks very promising, at the moment this is not a graphical design environment, just a complex (compared to Delphi) design environment with graphical feedback. Just my 2 cents ;-) (although others in this group will definitely have a different opinion), the beautiful thing about Python is, that you can easily embed /encapsulate it in VB, giving you the best of both worlds. Why would one go thru the pain of embedding Python in VB (if that's even possible) when Python can directly access the Win32 API and all COM components and have bindings for GUI toolkits like wxWidgets ? Pain of embedding ? About 10 lines of code, which you find ready to use on the web ;-) And the performance is fantastic ! (I even use it for realtime, as a complete replacement for MatLab and LabView) Bruno, I think we've a different audience / target application, and at the moment we'll never agree about GUI, but I promise that'll try the different Python graphics in the future, and you will be the first to hear if my current conclusions are wrong. cheers, Stef -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Help Required for Choosing Programming Language
On Feb 16, 11:12 pm, Bruno Desthuilliers [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: GUI based programming languages ? What's that ? LabView -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Help Required for Choosing Programming Language
On Feb 17, 3:22 am, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I am VB6 programmer and wants to start new programming language but i am unable to deciced. i have read about Python, Ruby and Visual C++. but i want to go through with GUI based programming language like VB.net so will you please guide me which GUI based language has worth with complete OOPS Characteristics will wait for the answer hope to have a right direction from you Programmer Regards Iftikhar [EMAIL PROTECTED] There is no other GUI based programming language like VB. That's because there is no such thing as a GUI based programming language. If you want to learn a real general purpose programming language try learning python. If you are only interested in making GUI's for windows applications, better stick with VB or any of the other .NET languages. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Help Required for Choosing Programming Language
Muntasir Azam Khan wrote: On Feb 17, 3:22 am, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I am VB6 programmer and wants to start new programming language but i am unable to deciced. i have read about Python, Ruby and Visual C++. but i want to go through with GUI based programming language like VB.net so will you please guide me which GUI based language has worth with complete OOPS Characteristics will wait for the answer hope to have a right direction from you Programmer Regards Iftikhar [EMAIL PROTECTED] There is no other GUI based programming language like VB. That's because there is no such thing as a GUI based programming language. If you want to learn a real general purpose programming language try learning python. If you are only interested in making GUI's for windows applications, better stick with VB or any of the other .NET languages. It's also worth remembering that you can use COM to drive a VB interface from Python, and of course there's now IronPython that allows you to use .NET-based interfaces directly. regards Steve -- Steve Holden +44 150 684 7255 +1 800 494 3119 Holden Web LLC/Ltd http://www.holdenweb.com Skype: holdenweb http://del.icio.us/steve.holden Blog of Note: http://holdenweb.blogspot.com See you at PyCon? http://us.pycon.org/TX2007 -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Help Required for Choosing Programming Language
On 16 Feb, 21:22, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I am VB6 programmer and wants to start new programming language Why? What is causing you to do this, and what do you need to achieve by doing it? i want to go through with GUI based programming language like VB.net GUI-based is fairly unimportant as it's just how you build your programs, not what they do afterwards. VB is GUI-based, Python can be GUI-based but is usually fairly text-based. What's probably more significant here is whether the resulting program runs in a GUI or not. VB obviously does, on the Windows desktop. Java also has a sizable market for cross-platform GUI applications. In many ways Java is more capable than VB, but also far less easy to work with for rapid simple applications (I'd take 10 year old VB over GridBag any time!). GUI programs are less important now than they were a few years ago, owing to the huge importance of the web and HTML. Although HTML can still be seen as GUI, it really needs to be worked with at the raw HTML source level (at least for quality work). This doesn't need any sort of GUI built into the language, so Python (or Ruby or Perl) are ideal. With the rise of AJAX toolkits, we're finally seeing HTML as a GUI turn into a workable choice for building sophisticated GUI apps in a sensible amount of time. Finally! The tools used here depend significantly on the toolkits used and it's still early days to pick winners. If I had to write Windows-only desktop GUI apps, then I'd stick with VB6 (which I wrote for years) or whatever M$oft decree to be its moral successor. Actually I'd probably stick with VB6 If I had to write cross-platform GUI desktop apps, then I'd be looking at whatever the favoured toolkit for Java is this week. Maybe Swing, if I wanted to get a paid job using it. Java Web Start needs looking at too. If I just had to make a sophisiticated GUI app appear on a lot of corporate desktops, then it would probably be based on Java Server Faces. For nearly all of the choices above, the language part of the task is minor in comparison to tiresome GUI building. That's just the way commerce works, and why we don't all get to write everything in Scheme or Haskell. If I had a free hand in writing better shell scripts, or in writing moderately complex algorithms with no visible UI, then I have chosen Python. It beats the hell out of Perl and is (AFAICS) better than Ruby. For building web reporting apps that generate HTML, then I'm also choosing to use my sparse Python knowledge rather than my substantial Java / JSP knowledge. Seems to be working so far. For web-hosted GUI apps, I don't know enough about Python to say. Doesn't look like it beats JSF though. There's also the question of what OOP means. For the mainstream languages, then classic statically-typed OO is done best by writing in Java. This has a cleaner OOP language design than C++, the benefit of a decade's hindsight and a clean slate. Dynamically or duck-typed languages like Python and Ruby are quite different from this. It's still OOP, but not how your uncle Bjarne knew it. Quite a culture shock too. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Help Required for Choosing Programming Language
On Feb 16, 4:22 pm, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I am VB6 programmer and wants to start new programming language but i am unable to deciced. i have read about Python, Ruby and Visual C++. but i want to go through with GUI based programming language like VB.net so will you please guide me which GUI based language has worth with complete OOPS Characteristics will wait for the answer hope to have a right direction from you Programmer Regards Iftikhar [EMAIL PROTECTED] Good grief. I suppose it is Microsoft to whom we owe the idea that there could be such a thing as a GUI based programming language. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Help Required for Choosing Programming Language
On 19 Feb 2007 09:56:06 -0800, Mark Morss [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Good grief. I suppose it is Microsoft to whom we owe the idea that there could be such a thing as a GUI based programming language. Who do we blame for the idea that everyone in the world should be able to express themselves in perfect English without confusion? It was obvious what the OP meant. He's looking for something akin to VB, but in Python. -- # p.d. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Help Required for Choosing Programming Language
Hendrik van Rooyen a écrit : Bruno Desthuilliers [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Stef Mientki a écrit : (snip) I've been using Python for just 2 months, and didn't try any graphical design, So how can you comment on GUI programming with Python ? I think we have a language problem here (no pun intended) When Stef says Gui Programming he means using something like Delphi or Boa to do the Graphical Layout, while on this group it normally means writing the python code to make your own windows etc., using Tkinter or better... It's now the *3rd* time I mention Glade, wxGlade and QTDesigner in this thread. Hendrik, I know *exactly* what Stef is talking about - been here, done that. So from Stef's perspective he is right when he claims that Python's Gui Programming is poor - in the standard library it is non existent, as there are no Delphi-, Glade- or Boa-like tools available. And one can argue that something like Boa or the WX.. packages are not Python, as they are not included in the standard library... Then ObjectPascal his poor too. All the GUI part of Delphi is to ObjectPascal what wxPython etc are to Python. From thiw POV, Python is much richer than ObjectPascal : you have at least 3 or 4 usable GUI toolkits, at least two of them being full-featured and cross-platform. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Help Required for Choosing Programming Language
[EMAIL PROTECTED] a écrit : On Feb 16, 4:22 pm, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I am VB6 programmer and wants to start new programming language but i am unable to deciced. i have read about Python, Ruby and Visual C++. but i want to go through with GUI based programming language like VB.net so will you please guide me which GUI based language has worth with complete OOPS Characteristics will wait for the answer hope to have a right direction from you Programmer Regards Iftikhar [EMAIL PROTECTED] Despite what real programmers and various apologists might say, there isn't much out there that comes close to the ease-of-use and functionality of VB when it comes to designing a GUI. Lol. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Help Required for Choosing Programming Language
It's now the *3rd* time I mention Glade, wxGlade and QTDesigner in this thread. Hendrik, I know *exactly* what Stef is talking about - been here, done that. Doubt, that know what I'm talking about ... ... Glade, wxGlade, QTDesigner are not my choice ;-) ... at the moment I tend towards VisualWX + openGL for the future. cheers, Stef -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Help Required for Choosing Programming Language
Stef Mientki wrote: Some examples: - Creating a treeview (like in the M$ explorer), with full edit capabilities and full drag drop facilities: Delphi takes about 40 lines of code (most of them even ^C ^V). - Creating a graphical overview of relations between database tables, which can be graphical manipulated by the user (like in M$ Access): Delphi 20 lines of code. I wonder what this costs in Python ? My Chrysler 300C SRT8 takes someVeryLowNumber seconds to accelerate to 100 mph. I wonder how long this takes with a BMW? I would love to see: - a comparison between wx and gtk Best would be to try the introduction tutorials yourself. Also be aware that wxWidgets and GTK are C/C++ libraries and wxPython and wxGTK are just Python bindings with a few enhancements for it. (QT doesn't have a very inviting license ;-) GNU GPL isn't inviting? Regards, Björn -- BOFH excuse #352: The cables are not the same length. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Help Required for Choosing Programming Language
Stef Mientki a écrit : (snip) I'm not an (educated) programmer, so I don't always use the right terms :-( If I look at a well established program like DIA, and see that it still can't repaint it's screen always correctly, ... I suppose you're talking about the Diagram drawing program Dia. If so, I don't see how it is relevant to Python GUI programming since Dia is written in C with the GTK toolkit. The stability problems you experience have probably more to do with the status of the Windows port of GTK (which is originally a X toolkit). I've been using Python for just 2 months, and didn't try any graphical design, So how can you comment on GUI programming with Python ? -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Help Required for Choosing Programming Language
On 2/17/07, Stef Mientki [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Some examples: - Creating a treeview (like in the M$ explorer), with full edit capabilities and full drag drop facilities: Delphi takes about 40 lines of code (most of them even ^C ^V). - Creating a graphical overview of relations between database tables, which can be graphical manipulated by the user (like in M$ Access): Delphi 20 lines of code. I wonder what this costs in Python ? You really need to get your thinking straightened out. You can't compare Delphi to Python; Delphi is a product that uses Pascal as its language, while Python is a language. When you compare a product for a language to an entire language, it makes the rest of your arguments look silly. BTW, you said you looked at the Dabo Class Designer - did you know that that tool itself was written in Dabo? The power is there. The fact that you couldn't completely understand it in a brief review says more about you than it does about Python, wxPython or Dabo. -- # p.d. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Help Required for Choosing Programming Language
Stef Mientki schrieb: - designing the GUI will cost me about 2 .. 3 times as much in Python You mean delphi here I presume? No, but if that's your believe .. I'm sorry, that was a misreading of mine. Some examples: - Creating a treeview (like in the M$ explorer), with full edit capabilities and full drag drop facilities: Delphi takes about 40 lines of code (most of them even ^C ^V). As does Qt. - Creating a graphical overview of relations between database tables, which can be graphical manipulated by the user (like in M$ Access): Delphi 20 lines of code. I wonder what this costs in Python ? Qt has data-aware classes, albeit I didn't play with them. I've been using Python for just 2 months, and didn't try any graphical design, I've other priorities first. May I cite you: - Python is not capable of doing everything I need (almost all interactive actions are very primitive and crashes a lot) To me, that sounded like you were talking about gui-design. Diez -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Help Required for Choosing Programming Language
On 2007-02-16, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: i have read about Python, Ruby and Visual C++. but i want to go through with GUI based programming language like VB.net You might take a look at http://dabodev.com Dave Cook -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Help Required for Choosing Programming Language
On Feb 16, 4:22 pm, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I am VB6 programmer and wants to start new programming language but i am unable to deciced. i have read about Python, Ruby and Visual C++. but i want to go through with GUI based programming language like VB.net so will you please guide me which GUI based language has worth with complete OOPS Characteristics will wait for the answer hope to have a right direction from you Programmer Regards Iftikhar [EMAIL PROTECTED] Despite what real programmers and various apologists might say, there isn't much out there that comes close to the ease-of-use and functionality of VB when it comes to designing a GUI. I say this not to discourage you, but to let you know that if a GUI designer is your sole criteria for a new language, you're going to be disappointed with everything you see. I'd suggest that with whatever new language you go with, you either write apps that aren't gui-based, or write a web application with a web-based GUI. Another alternative would be to write the business logic in the new language, and have a shell VB app implementing the GUI call it. You can do this easily in python by creating python based COM components (not sure how easy it is in ruby, and it's a comparitive pain-in-the-ass in C++) Good luck, Grant -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Help Required for Choosing Programming Language
Bruno Desthuilliers [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Stef Mientki a écrit : (snip) I've been using Python for just 2 months, and didn't try any graphical design, So how can you comment on GUI programming with Python ? I think we have a language problem here (no pun intended) When Stef says Gui Programming he means using something like Delphi or Boa to do the Graphical Layout, while on this group it normally means writing the python code to make your own windows etc., using Tkinter or better... There is no doubt that the first approach gets you going faster, albeit true that you have more flexibility with the second. The learning curves are also different, the first approach feeling less painful, as you seem to make progress from the start, and you don't have to worry about questions like : whats a frame/toplevel/mainloop/etc.? So from Stef's perspective he is right when he claims that Python's Gui Programming is poor - in the standard library it is non existent, as there are no Delphi-, Glade- or Boa-like tools available. And one can argue that something like Boa or the WX.. packages are not Python, as they are not included in the standard library... - Hendrik -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Help Required for Choosing Programming Language
Peter Decker wrote: On 2/16/07, Stef Mientki [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In one of the other threads, Dabo was meant as a GUI designer, I tried it yesterday, and although it looks very promising, at the moment this is not a graphical design environment, just a complex (compared to Delphi) design environment with graphical feedback. Just my 2 cents ;-) Dabo is indeed a work in progress. They are developing the various tools now to get people started, but have plans for a full graphical IDE in the manner of Delphi or Visual Studio. You can complain that this free tool developed by volunteers in their spare time isn't as polished as a commercial tool backed by large corporations that can afford large paid staffs. Sorry, but I didn't complain !! I just wrote down my observations. I didn't write my observations to dis-encourage people, (if so, my sincere appologies) but to show that their are other (and maybe better) ways. Or you could contribute. Believe me or not, I love free and open software, and I do contribute to the open source community, but let everyone do what he/she is good in. Why do you think I want to replace the use of MatLab and LabView (and a number of others) with Python ;-) cheers, Stef Mientki -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Help Required for Choosing Programming Language
The final goal of programming language is (in most cases) meant to create functional things, that can assist people to perform their tasks. The UI of that resulting thing should be optimal adapted to the final audience (and task). My audience is most comfortable with a intuitive GUI. In most of my applications, I need about 50% of the time for the GUI and 50% for the other functional code. These estimates are for Delphi (is about identical as VB, which I used previous). For what I've seen until now from Python, - designing the GUI will cost me about 2 .. 3 times as much in Python You mean delphi here I presume? - Python is not capable of doing everything I need (almost all interactive actions are very primitive and crashes a lot) I'm not sure what you are talking about here, and I have the deep impression you yourself don't as well. Matter of factly, there is no the python GUI. There are quite a few choices. The built-in tkinter, which - while limited in some senses - is developed by Frederik Lundh, and while I personally haven't done too much with it, his reputation as one of the most high profiled python developers doesn't go along pretty well with your assertions above. So -whatever you used as GUI-toolkit, you either used it wrong, or it really wasn't good. But then there are at least three major other toolkits available, wx, gtk and Qt. The first two I've only dabbled a bit with and can't comment on. But I've done extensive, cross-platform development with Qt. And can assert that it is unmatched in productivity and feature richness, especially when combined with python. And certainly beat VB, and most probably even delphi (albeit I haven't done too much in that to really put all my weight behind these words). And so I'm under the strong impression that your - undoubtedly correct from a personal point of view, and I don't think your meaning evil here - observations are wrong and are based on a lack of experience in python and it's available gui-options. Diez -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Help Required for Choosing Programming Language
In your situation consider C# too. If you like python then try IronPython for .NET. I think that C++ is not ideal for you. P.S.: VB6 is NOT a real OOP language. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Help Required for Choosing Programming Language
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I am VB6 programmer and wants to start new programming language but i am unable to deciced. i have read about Python, Ruby and Visual C++. but i want to go through with GUI based programming language like VB.net By 'GUI based programming language' I think that you mean an integrated development environment that includes a visual designer that allows you to layout your GUI and that generates a skeleton application for you to complete. If this is so then the nearest thing that I have found is Boa Constructor, although you will need to know more about the underlying windowing system (wxPython) than you would when using VB.net in Visual Studio. Another system worth a close look is Pythoncard. Other folks have already mentioned Dabo, but this is probably too early in its development for your needs. As an alternative, you can make your own choice of editor/IDE and use a stand-alone visual designer for your GUI. I like Pydev/Eclipse for an IDE and wxGlade for the visual designer. Again, you will need to learn something about wxPython if you want avoid lots of frustration - Robin Dunn's book 'wxPython in Action' is good. There are probably similar toolkits available for combinations of Python and other windowing systems (Tkinter, Qt). Don. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Help Required for Choosing Programming Language
On Feb 17, 1:35 am, Diez B. Roggisch [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: But I've done extensive, cross-platform development with Qt. And can assert that it is unmatched in productivity and feature richness, especially when combined with python. And certainly beat VB, and most probably even delphi (albeit I haven't done too much in that to really put all my weight behind these words). [snip] Thanks for the pointer--my hobby right now is a GURPS-based wargame and I'm still looking for a good front-end generator. pygsear seems nice in a lot of ways, but it's possible Qt will require less development on my part. (I need to have one window, but split into separate panels in the style of old RPGs like Wizardry and Bard's Tale.) I'll have a look. -Maximilian -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Help Required for Choosing Programming Language
Stef Mientki a écrit : Bruno Desthuilliers wrote: Stef Mientki a écrit : [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I am VB6 programmer and wants to start new programming language but i am unable to deciced. i have read about Python, Ruby and Visual C++. but i want to go through with GUI based programming language like VB.net so will you please guide me which GUI based language has worth with complete OOPS Characteristics Although the GUI of Python is not as good as VB, the GUI of Python ? What's that ? Python is a *programming language*, not a GUI toolkit. The final goal of programming language is (in most cases) meant to create functional things, that can assist people to perform their tasks. The UI of that resulting thing should be optimal adapted to the final audience (and task). My audience is most comfortable with a intuitive GUI. In most of my applications, I need about 50% of the time for the GUI and 50% for the other functional code. These estimates are for Delphi (is about identical as VB, which I used previous). Stef, I come from the Mac world, at a time where Windows didn't even exist. I learned programming on a Mac (by the System7 days), then, a few years later, became a professional Windows programmer - using VB, VisualC++, etc. My first steps with Python were about GUI apps on Windows. I've switched to Linux and web programming since, but I do know what Windows GUI programming with Python is. For what I've seen until now from Python, - designing the GUI will cost me about 2 .. 3 times as much in Python Bullshit. You don't design the GUI with Python, but with one of the GUI designers coming with your GUI toolkit (that's, mostly, wxGlade for wxWidgets, Glade for GTK, and QTDesigner for QT). All these tools have all the needed features. - Python is not capable of doing everything I need (almost all interactive actions are very primitive and crashes a lot) I've shipped some wxPython apps, and tehy were usually more stable than the VB ones. - designing my other functional code in Python, will reduce the development time with an estimated factor of 2 So the combination of Delphi (or VB) and Python seems the optimal combination for heavily GUI's. My experience is that you *dont* need Delphi nor VB at all. - one of the big problems with Python is the version differences (compatibility) By itself, Python is very carefully designed for backward compat - you'll find that much of the code written by the 1.5.2 days still work as is. True, there are some compat requirements wrt/ which version of wxPython works with which versions of wxWidgets and Python, but nothing unusual here. Bruno, I think we've a different audience / target application, and at the moment we'll never agree about GUI, cf above. When I was writing Windows GUI apps, my target audience was mostly people knowing how to use a professional app on Windows. Now I'm doing web apps, and my target audience may include my own mother - which is not specially computer savy (even MacOS is too complex for her...). -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Help Required for Choosing Programming Language
- designing the GUI will cost me about 2 .. 3 times as much in Python You mean delphi here I presume? No, but if that's your believe .. Some examples: - Creating a treeview (like in the M$ explorer), with full edit capabilities and full drag drop facilities: Delphi takes about 40 lines of code (most of them even ^C ^V). - Creating a graphical overview of relations between database tables, which can be graphical manipulated by the user (like in M$ Access): Delphi 20 lines of code. I wonder what this costs in Python ? - Python is not capable of doing everything I need (almost all interactive actions are very primitive and crashes a lot) I'm not sure what you are talking about here, and I have the deep impression you yourself don't as well. I'm not an (educated) programmer, so I don't always use the right terms :-( If I look at a well established program like DIA, and see that it still can't repaint it's screen always correctly, ... If I just look at MathPlotLib ;-) But I also know one beautiful program based on wx: KICAD. Matter of factly, there is no the python GUI. There are quite a few choices. The built-in tkinter, which - while limited in some senses - is developed by Frederik Lundh, and while I personally haven't done too much with it, his reputation as one of the most high profiled python developers doesn't go along pretty well with your assertions above. So -whatever you used as GUI-toolkit, you either used it wrong, or it really wasn't good. But then there are at least three major other toolkits available, wx, gtk and Qt. The first two I've only dabbled a bit with and can't comment on. But I've done extensive, cross-platform development with Qt. And can assert that it is unmatched in productivity and feature richness, especially when combined with python. And certainly beat VB, and most probably even delphi (albeit I haven't done too much in that to really put all my weight behind these words). And so I'm under the strong impression that your - undoubtedly correct from a personal point of view, and I don't think your meaning evil here - observations are wrong and are based on a lack of experience in python and it's available gui-options. I've been using Python for just 2 months, and didn't try any graphical design, I've other priorities first. I would love to see: - a comparison between wx and gtk (QT doesn't have a very inviting license ;-) - some Python applications that uses one of these graphical libraries. To give you an impression of some features I'm after, I've prepared an animation (not completely ready yet), of the program I've written in Delphi, with both embedded MatLab and embedded Python, where MatLab or Python does all the real-time numerical analysis. http://oase.uci.kun.nl/~mientki/download/medilab_tot.htm Writing this program, including teaching myself Python (with a lot of help of this group, thank you all !!), and writing the bloodpressure analysis in both MatLab and Python, excluding the ADC-drivers, costed me about 150 .. 200 hours ... ... can that be done be an experienced programmer in Python. cheers, Stef Mientki -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Help Required for Choosing Programming Language
I would love to see: - a comparison between wx and gtk (QT doesn't have a very inviting license ;-) I just found this: http://www.wxwidgets.org/wiki/index.php/WxWidgets_Compared_To_Other_Toolkits -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Help Required for Choosing Programming Language
En Sat, 17 Feb 2007 21:12:07 -0300, Stef Mientki [EMAIL PROTECTED] escribió: I would love to see: - a comparison between wx and gtk (QT doesn't have a very inviting license ;-) I just found this: http://www.wxwidgets.org/wiki/index.php/WxWidgets_Compared_To_Other_Toolkits But keep in mind that that comparison may be biased... A more impartial source would be better. -- Gabriel Genellina -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Help Required for Choosing Programming Language
I am VB6 programmer and wants to start new programming language but i am unable to deciced. i have read about Python, Ruby and Visual C++. but i want to go through with GUI based programming language like VB.net so will you please guide me which GUI based language has worth with complete OOPS Characteristics will wait for the answer hope to have a right direction from you Programmer Regards Iftikhar [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Help Required for Choosing Programming Language
On 2007-02-16, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I am VB6 programmer and wants to start new programming language but i am unable to deciced. i have read about Python, Ruby and Visual C++. but i want to go through with GUI based programming language like VB.net so will you please guide me which GUI based language has worth with complete OOPS Characteristics will wait for the answer hope to have a right direction from you Programmer Heck, yeah! Python rules! It will be perfect for your next language acquisition. (Well, what else did you excect a denizen of a Python group to tell you?) -- Neil Cerutti Baseball has the great advantage over cricket of being sooner ended. --George Bernard Shaw -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Help Required for Choosing Programming Language
[EMAIL PROTECTED] a écrit : I am VB6 programmer and wants to start new programming language but i am unable to deciced. i have read about Python, Ruby and Visual C++. but i want to go through with GUI based programming language GUI based programming languages ? What's that ? like VB.net so will you please guide me which GUI based language has worth with complete OOPS Characteristics complete OOPS Characteristics ? What's that ? Visual C++ is not a language, it's a (proprietary, non portable) implementation of a language named C++. Ruby and Python are both hi-level, object-oriented languages, and both have bindings to the main GUI toolkits. These GUI toolkits usually have language-independant GUI designers. For the programming part, you're free to choose whatever editor you like. Both Python and Ruby are worth learning. Since both have open-source implementations, you can easily try them for yourself and choose the one you like best. Now I don't know what's the situation for Ruby, but - since you seem to be mostly on the MS side -, Python has a pretty good integration with Windows (COM programming and scripting, Win32 API bindings etc), and is usually a better choice than VB for this j=kind of tasks. Note also that there's IronPython (Python for .NET). HTH -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Help Required for Choosing Programming Language
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I am VB6 programmer and wants to start new programming language but i am unable to deciced. i have read about Python, Ruby and Visual C++. but i want to go through with GUI based programming language like VB.net so will you please guide me which GUI based language has worth with complete OOPS Characteristics Although the GUI of Python is not as good as VB, (although others in this group will definitely have a different opinion), the beautiful thing about Python is, that you can easily embed /encapsulate it in VB, giving you the best of both worlds. cheers, Stef Mientki -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Help Required for Choosing Programming Language
Stef Mientki wrote: Although the GUI of Python is not as good as VB, What is the GUI of a language? Regards, Björn -- BOFH excuse #334: 50% of the manual is in .pdf readme files -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Help Required for Choosing Programming Language
Stef Mientki a écrit : [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I am VB6 programmer and wants to start new programming language but i am unable to deciced. i have read about Python, Ruby and Visual C++. but i want to go through with GUI based programming language like VB.net so will you please guide me which GUI based language has worth with complete OOPS Characteristics Although the GUI of Python is not as good as VB, the GUI of Python ? What's that ? Python is a *programming language*, not a GUI toolkit. (although others in this group will definitely have a different opinion), the beautiful thing about Python is, that you can easily embed /encapsulate it in VB, giving you the best of both worlds. Why would one go thru the pain of embedding Python in VB (if that's even possible) when Python can directly access the Win32 API and all COM components and have bindings for GUI toolkits like wxWidgets ? -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Help Required for Choosing Programming Language
Bruno Desthuilliers: Iftikhar: i have read about Python, Ruby and Visual C++. but i want to go through with GUI based programming language GUI based programming languages ? What's that ? Maybe a language like Gui4cli :-) http://users.hol.gr/~dck/g4c/ Bye, bearophile -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Help Required for Choosing Programming Language
Bruno Desthuilliers wrote: Stef Mientki a écrit : [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I am VB6 programmer and wants to start new programming language but i am unable to deciced. i have read about Python, Ruby and Visual C++. but i want to go through with GUI based programming language like VB.net so will you please guide me which GUI based language has worth with complete OOPS Characteristics Although the GUI of Python is not as good as VB, the GUI of Python ? What's that ? Python is a *programming language*, not a GUI toolkit. The final goal of programming language is (in most cases) meant to create functional things, that can assist people to perform their tasks. The UI of that resulting thing should be optimal adapted to the final audience (and task). My audience is most comfortable with a intuitive GUI. In most of my applications, I need about 50% of the time for the GUI and 50% for the other functional code. These estimates are for Delphi (is about identical as VB, which I used previous). For what I've seen until now from Python, - designing the GUI will cost me about 2 .. 3 times as much in Python - Python is not capable of doing everything I need (almost all interactive actions are very primitive and crashes a lot) - designing my other functional code in Python, will reduce the development time with an estimated factor of 2 So the combination of Delphi (or VB) and Python seems the optimal combination for heavily GUI's. - one of the big problems with Python is the version differences (compatibility) In one of the other threads, Dabo was meant as a GUI designer, I tried it yesterday, and although it looks very promising, at the moment this is not a graphical design environment, just a complex (compared to Delphi) design environment with graphical feedback. Just my 2 cents ;-) (although others in this group will definitely have a different opinion), the beautiful thing about Python is, that you can easily embed /encapsulate it in VB, giving you the best of both worlds. Why would one go thru the pain of embedding Python in VB (if that's even possible) when Python can directly access the Win32 API and all COM components and have bindings for GUI toolkits like wxWidgets ? Pain of embedding ? About 10 lines of code, which you find ready to use on the web ;-) And the performance is fantastic ! (I even use it for realtime, as a complete replacement for MatLab and LabView) Bruno, I think we've a different audience / target application, and at the moment we'll never agree about GUI, but I promise that'll try the different Python graphics in the future, and you will be the first to hear if my current conclusions are wrong. cheers, Stef -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Help Required for Choosing Programming Language
On 2/16/07, Stef Mientki [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In one of the other threads, Dabo was meant as a GUI designer, I tried it yesterday, and although it looks very promising, at the moment this is not a graphical design environment, just a complex (compared to Delphi) design environment with graphical feedback. Just my 2 cents ;-) Dabo is indeed a work in progress. They are developing the various tools now to get people started, but have plans for a full graphical IDE in the manner of Delphi or Visual Studio. You can complain that this free tool developed by volunteers in their spare time isn't as polished as a commercial tool backed by large corporations that can afford large paid staffs. Or you could contribute. -- # p.d. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
