Re: Learning Python (or Haskell) makes you a worse programmer

2016-03-31 Thread Sven R. Kunze 

On 31.03.2016 18:30, Travis Griggs wrote:



British:  http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/python
American: http://www.dictionary.com/browse/python?s=t

That does it. If I ever make some sort of open source module for pythun/pythawn 
I’ll be sure to call it either tuhmayto/tomawto. Or maybe I’ll call it 
puhtayto/potawto.


Isn't it more like "Pythn"?
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Re: Learning Python (or Haskell) makes you a worse programmer

2016-03-31 Thread Ian Kelly 
On Thu, Mar 31, 2016 at 10:30 AM, Travis Griggs  wrote:
>
>> On Mar 30, 2016, at 2:36 PM, Gregory Ewing  
>> wrote:
>>
>> Tim Golden wrote:
>>
>>> (I don't know how other English-speaking groups say the word, but in
>>> England the first syllable is stressed and the second is the
>>> conventional short "uh" sound).
>>
>> I can attest that New Zealand follows the UK on this. I was
>> surprised when I first heard an American pronounce it too.
>>
>> The curious can hear the difference on these pages:
>>
>> British:  http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/python
>> American: http://www.dictionary.com/browse/python?s=t
>
> That does it. If I ever make some sort of open source module for 
> pythun/pythawn I’ll be sure to call it either tuhmayto/tomawto. Or maybe I’ll 
> call it puhtayto/potawto.

Pytato?
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Re: Learning Python (or Haskell) makes you a worse programmer

2016-03-31 Thread Travis Griggs 

> On Mar 30, 2016, at 2:36 PM, Gregory Ewing  
> wrote:
> 
> Tim Golden wrote:
> 
>> (I don't know how other English-speaking groups say the word, but in
>> England the first syllable is stressed and the second is the
>> conventional short "uh" sound).
> 
> I can attest that New Zealand follows the UK on this. I was
> surprised when I first heard an American pronounce it too.
> 
> The curious can hear the difference on these pages:
> 
> British:  http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/python
> American: http://www.dictionary.com/browse/python?s=t

That does it. If I ever make some sort of open source module for pythun/pythawn 
I’ll be sure to call it either tuhmayto/tomawto. Or maybe I’ll call it 
puhtayto/potawto.

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Re: Learning Python (or Haskell) makes you a worse programmer

2016-03-30 Thread Gregory Ewing 

Tim Golden wrote:


(I don't know how other English-speaking groups say the word, but in
England the first syllable is stressed and the second is the
conventional short "uh" sound).


I can attest that New Zealand follows the UK on this. I was
surprised when I first heard an American pronounce it too.

The curious can hear the difference on these pages:

British:  http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/python
American: http://www.dictionary.com/browse/python?s=t

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Re: Learning Python (or Haskell) makes you a worse programmer

2016-03-30 Thread Eric S. Johansson 



On 3/30/2016 9:09 AM, Chris Angelico wrote:

On Thu, Mar 31, 2016 at 12:06 AM, Eric S. Johansson  wrote:

I need a co-conspirator with better hands than mine to get through the next
stage which is some form of an AST smart editor that operates on larger
chunks such as idioms or snippets in a speech friendly way. Ideally I'd like
to see a bidirectional transform between the spoken form and a code form so
that you can edit the spoken form and regenerate the code.

Sounds to me like what you want is a variant language, a
speech-friendly programming language that compiles to Python. You
effectively store the spoken version, and translate it (one way) to
Python for execution.


That would be ideal but the problem comes with working with the team. I 
can't expect the other members the team to learn the system. I need to 
be able to work according to the teams rules (coding style etc.) for 
proper integration into an effort. Maybe I should be looking at machine 
learning for identifying patterns in the code and translation back to a 
spoken form.


It be interesting to see what people could come up with though for a 
speech friendly Python model. I've been wrestling with the problem so 
long, I probably have tons of blind spots.

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Re: Learning Python (or Haskell) makes you a worse programmer

2016-03-30 Thread Chris Angelico 
On Thu, Mar 31, 2016 at 12:06 AM, Eric S. Johansson  wrote:
> I need a co-conspirator with better hands than mine to get through the next
> stage which is some form of an AST smart editor that operates on larger
> chunks such as idioms or snippets in a speech friendly way. Ideally I'd like
> to see a bidirectional transform between the spoken form and a code form so
> that you can edit the spoken form and regenerate the code.

Sounds to me like what you want is a variant language, a
speech-friendly programming language that compiles to Python. You
effectively store the spoken version, and translate it (one way) to
Python for execution.

ChrisA
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Re: Learning Python (or Haskell) makes you a worse programmer

2016-03-30 Thread Eric S. Johansson 



On 3/30/2016 6:21 AM, BartC wrote:

On 30/03/2016 11:07, Sven R. Kunze wrote:

On 30.03.2016 01:29, Eric S. Johansson wrote:



On 3/29/2016 6:05 AM, Sven R. Kunze wrote:


Python = English


As someone who writes English text and code using speech recognition,
I can assure you that Python is not English. :-)


:D Interesting. Never thought of how Python sounds when spoken.


Among other things, it becomes case insensitive...


Which makes complying with Pep 8 quite the bitch. Fortunately, I have a 
workaround (togglename) which lets me dictate what I need to say and 
preserve the spoken to code for mapping for later translation. (I.e. 
this thing is that thing mapping).


I need a co-conspirator with better hands than mine to get through the 
next stage which is some form of an AST smart editor that operates on 
larger chunks such as idioms or snippets in a speech friendly way. 
Ideally I'd like to see a bidirectional transform between the spoken 
form and a code form so that you can edit the spoken form and regenerate 
the code.


Just one example of what I am thinking of is when you say the string 
name of a previously defined class instance, you get a dialogue of all 
available methods and string names. When you are at the point of 
speaking the argument list, it gives you an abstract form of the 
argument list that is filled in with a minimal set of speech commands. 
I'm too lazy to create the full description right now what if anybody 
wants to know more, ask and I'll fill in the blanks.


It's important to remember though that using simple or accelerated 
methods for creating code is the easy part of the problem. It's editing 
existing code that is hard because you've lost a lot of the information 
necessary for speech user interface. This is where I think an AST based 
editor will come in quite handy. So far, I haven't found any.

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Re: Learning Python (or Haskell) makes you a worse programmer

2016-03-30 Thread Sven R. Kunze 

On 30.03.2016 12:21, BartC wrote:

On 30/03/2016 11:07, Sven R. Kunze wrote:

On 30.03.2016 01:29, Eric S. Johansson wrote:



On 3/29/2016 6:05 AM, Sven R. Kunze wrote:


Python = English


As someone who writes English text and code using speech recognition,
I can assure you that Python is not English. :-)


:D Interesting. Never thought of how Python sounds when spoken.


Among other things, it becomes case insensitive...



Now that you mention it... ;)

You do coding with speech recognition, too?


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Re: Learning Python (or Haskell) makes you a worse programmer

2016-03-30 Thread BartC 

On 30/03/2016 11:07, Sven R. Kunze wrote:

On 30.03.2016 01:29, Eric S. Johansson wrote:



On 3/29/2016 6:05 AM, Sven R. Kunze wrote:


Python = English


As someone who writes English text and code using speech recognition,
I can assure you that Python is not English. :-)


:D Interesting. Never thought of how Python sounds when spoken.


Among other things, it becomes case insensitive...

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Re: Learning Python (or Haskell) makes you a worse programmer

2016-03-30 Thread Sven R. Kunze 

On 30.03.2016 12:14, Tim Golden wrote:

Not that you quite meant this, but I'm always amused (and still a little
startled) when I listen to talks recorded from, say, PyCon and hear
people with American accents pronouncing Python with the stress on the
slightly longer second syllable.

(I don't know how other English-speaking groups say the word, but in
England the first syllable is stressed and the second is the
conventional short "uh" sound).

TJG


I recognize this too. I also started with the England variant but now I 
am not so sure anymore. :D


Sven
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Re: Learning Python (or Haskell) makes you a worse programmer

2016-03-30 Thread Tim Golden 
On 30/03/2016 11:07, Sven R. Kunze wrote:
> On 30.03.2016 01:29, Eric S. Johansson wrote:
>>
>>
>> On 3/29/2016 6:05 AM, Sven R. Kunze wrote:
>>>
>>> Python = English
>>>
>> As someone who writes English text and code using speech recognition,
>> I can assure you that Python is not English. :-)
> 
> :D Interesting. Never thought of how Python sounds when spoken.

Not that you quite meant this, but I'm always amused (and still a little
startled) when I listen to talks recorded from, say, PyCon and hear
people with American accents pronouncing Python with the stress on the
slightly longer second syllable.

(I don't know how other English-speaking groups say the word, but in
England the first syllable is stressed and the second is the
conventional short "uh" sound).

TJG
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Re: Learning Python (or Haskell) makes you a worse programmer

2016-03-30 Thread Sven R. Kunze 

On 30.03.2016 01:29, Eric S. Johansson wrote:



On 3/29/2016 6:05 AM, Sven R. Kunze wrote:


Python = English

As someone who writes English text and code using speech recognition, 
I can assure you that Python is not English. :-)


:D Interesting. Never thought of how Python sounds when spoken.

Btw. the equivalence was more meant in the context of this thread. ;)

Best,
Sven
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Re: Learning Python (or Haskell) makes you a worse programmer

2016-03-29 Thread Eric S. Johansson 



On 3/29/2016 6:05 AM, Sven R. Kunze wrote:


Python = English

As someone who writes English text and code using speech recognition, I 
can assure you that Python is not English. :-)

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Re: [OT] C# -- sharp or carp? was Re: Learning Python (or Haskell) makes you a worse programmer

2016-03-29 Thread Vito De Tullio 
Sven R. Kunze wrote:

>>> My question to those who know a bit of C#: what is the state-of-the-art
>>> equivalent to
>>>
>>> "\n".join(foo.description() for foo in mylist
>>>   if foo.description() != "")

> Friend of mine told me something like this:
> 
> String.Join("\n", mylist.Where(foo =>
> !String.IsNullOrEmpty(foo.description)).Select(foo => foo.description))


I don't know if is "better" or not, but I find more readable using the 
"sql"-like syntax


string.Join("\n", from foo in mylist
  where !string.IsNullOrEmpty(foo.description())
  select foo.description());

which is relatively similar to the python's comprehension.


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Re: [OT] C# -- sharp or carp? was Re: Learning Python (or Haskell) makes you a worse programmer

2016-03-29 Thread Sven R. Kunze 

On 29.03.2016 18:05, Peter Otten wrote:

Reformatting it a bit

String.Join(
 "\n",
 mylist.Where(
 foo => !String.IsNullOrEmpty(foo.description)
 ).Select(
 foo => foo.description))

this looks like a variant of Python's

str.join(
"\n",
map(lambda foo: foo.description,
filter(lambda foo: foo.description, mylist)))

Assuming it's type-safe and can perhaps reshuffle the where and select part
into something optimised there is definitely progress.

But still, Python's generator expressions are cool..


Haha, sure. But don't get stuck there. Learn something new from time to 
time; even a new language.



Best,
Sven
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Re: [OT] C# -- sharp or carp? was Re: Learning Python (or Haskell) makes you a worse programmer

2016-03-29 Thread Peter Otten 
Sven R. Kunze wrote:

> On 29.03.2016 12:18, Sven R. Kunze wrote:
>> On 29.03.2016 11:39, Peter Otten wrote:
>>> My question to those who know a bit of C#: what is the state-of-the-art
>>> equivalent to
>>>
>>> "\n".join(foo.description() for foo in mylist
>>>   if foo.description() != "")
>>>
>>
>> Using LINQ, I suppose:
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Language_Integrated_Query
> 
> Friend of mine told me something like this:
> 
> String.Join("\n", mylist.Where(foo =>
> !String.IsNullOrEmpty(foo.description)).Select(foo => foo.description))
> 
> [untested, but from what I know of quite correct]

Reformatting it a bit

String.Join(
"\n", 
mylist.Where(
foo => !String.IsNullOrEmpty(foo.description)
).Select(
foo => foo.description))

this looks like a variant of Python's

str.join(
   "\n",
   map(lambda foo: foo.description,
   filter(lambda foo: foo.description, mylist)))

Assuming it's type-safe and can perhaps reshuffle the where and select part 
into something optimised there is definitely progress.

But still, Python's generator expressions are cool..

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Re: [OT] C# -- sharp or carp? was Re: Learning Python (or Haskell) makes you a worse programmer

2016-03-29 Thread Sven R. Kunze 

On 29.03.2016 12:18, Sven R. Kunze wrote:

On 29.03.2016 11:39, Peter Otten wrote:

My question to those who know a bit of C#: what is the state-of-the-art
equivalent to

"\n".join(foo.description() for foo in mylist
  if foo.description() != "")



Using LINQ, I suppose: 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Language_Integrated_Query


Friend of mine told me something like this:

String.Join("\n", mylist.Where(foo => 
!String.IsNullOrEmpty(foo.description)).Select(foo => foo.description))


[untested, but from what I know of quite correct]

Best,
Sven
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Re: [OT] C# -- sharp or carp? was Re: Learning Python (or Haskell) makes you a worse programmer

2016-03-29 Thread Sven R. Kunze 

On 29.03.2016 11:39, Peter Otten wrote:

My question to those who know a bit of C#: what is the state-of-the-art
equivalent to

"\n".join(foo.description() for foo in mylist
  if foo.description() != "")



Using LINQ, I suppose: 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Language_Integrated_Query

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Re: Learning Python (or Haskell) makes you a worse programmer

2016-03-29 Thread Sven R. Kunze 



On 29.03.2016 06:13, Michael Torrie wrote:

On 03/28/2016 06:44 PM, Steven D'Aprano wrote:

http://lukeplant.me.uk/blog/posts/why-learning-haskell-python-makes-you-a-worse-programmer/

I have the same problem as the writer.  Working in Python makes me
really dislike working in any other language!



Python = English


 :)
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[OT] C# -- sharp or carp? was Re: Learning Python (or Haskell) makes you a worse programmer

2016-03-29 Thread Peter Otten 
Steven D'Aprano wrote:

> http://lukeplant.me.uk/blog/posts/why-learning-haskell-python-makes-you-a-worse-programmer/

I was about to post that in a few years' time C# will acquire enough 
features to make code that follows the functional paradigm feasible in that 
language.

Then I noted that this was the 10th anniversary repost ;)

My question to those who know a bit of C#: what is the state-of-the-art 
equivalent to

"\n".join(foo.description() for foo in mylist
 if foo.description() != "")

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Re: Learning Python (or Haskell) makes you a worse programmer

2016-03-28 Thread Michael Torrie 
On 03/28/2016 06:44 PM, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
> http://lukeplant.me.uk/blog/posts/why-learning-haskell-python-makes-you-a-worse-programmer/

I have the same problem as the writer.  Working in Python makes me
really dislike working in any other language!

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Re: Learning Python (or Haskell) makes you a worse programmer

2016-03-28 Thread Ethan Furman 

On 03/28/2016 05:44 PM, Steven D'Aprano wrote:


http://lukeplant.me.uk/blog/posts/why-learning-haskell-python-makes-you-a-worse-programmer/


Beautiful.  And my deepest sympathies for the OP.

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Learning Python (or Haskell) makes you a worse programmer

2016-03-28 Thread Steven D'Aprano 
http://lukeplant.me.uk/blog/posts/why-learning-haskell-python-makes-you-a-worse-programmer/



-- 
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