Hello again, people
On Feb 11, 6:30 pm, Francis Carr coldtort...@gmail.com wrote:
I can't believe the code editing situation today is in a such sorry
state.
I can't believe an old coder is feeling so sorry for himself.
Ok, I'm feeling sorry; still, I think I made a point.
Today, I
In article mailman.2085.1265546107.28905.python-l...@python.org,
Steve Holden st...@holdenweb.com wrote:
bartc wrote:
Arnaud Delobelle arno...@googlemail.com wrote in message
news:m28wb6ypfs@googlemail.com...
Gabriel Genellina gagsl-...@yahoo.com.ar writes:
Note the *literal* part. If
In article 4b743340$0$20738$426a7...@news.free.fr,
Bruno Desthuilliers bruno.42.desthuilli...@websiteburo.invalid wrote:
Ever read worst is better ?-)
Nope -- maybe you mean worse is better?
http://www.jwz.org/doc/worse-is-better.html
(Nitpicking because you need the correct term to search.)
catonano a écrit :
(snip)
Today, I tried to understand the twisted.web.client code and I found 3
methods I couldn't find by who were called.
I asked on the mailing list and they suggested me where they were
called and that the tool for such thing is grep.
So, you grep, you get a list of files,
I can't believe the code editing situation today is in a such sorry
state.
I can't believe an old coder is feeling so sorry for himself.
Today, I tried to understand the twisted.web.client code and I found 3
methods I couldn't find by who were called.
I asked on the mailing list and they
On Feb 3, 7:38 pm, Phlip phlip2...@gmail.com wrote:
On Feb 3, 10:57 am, Adam Tauno Williams awill...@opengroupware.us
wrote:
Current editors suck because they can't see into the code and browse
it - unless it's so statically typed it's painful.
? I edit Python in MonoDevelop 2.2;
Vladimir,
On Feb 3, 12:10 pm, Vladimir Ignatov kmis...@gmail.com wrote:
Hello,
I am sitting here for quite some time, but usually keep silent ;-) I
Finally I develop a feeling that strong instrumentation / tools can
bring us the best of two worlds. That I am dreaming on is an absolute
new
catonano wrote:
[... much wishing for the good old day of SmallTalk ...]
Today, I tried to understand the twisted.web.client code and I found 3
methods I couldn't find by who were called.
I asked on the mailing list and they suggested me where they were
called and that the tool for such
catonano caton...@gmail.com wrote:
You know what I'm doing now ? I'm drawing the map of
twisted.web.client on a paper with a pencil :-(
You're a programmer. Why are you complaining about the problem instead
of endeavouring to solve it?
--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
bartc wrote:
Arnaud Delobelle arno...@googlemail.com wrote in message
news:m28wb6ypfs@googlemail.com...
Gabriel Genellina gagsl-...@yahoo.com.ar writes:
En Fri, 05 Feb 2010 19:22:39 -0300, bartc ba...@freeuk.com escribió:
Steve Holden st...@holdenweb.com wrote in message
Gabriel Genellina gagsl-...@yahoo.com.ar writes:
En Fri, 05 Feb 2010 19:22:39 -0300, bartc ba...@freeuk.com escribió:
Steve Holden st...@holdenweb.com wrote in message
news:mailman.1998.1265399766.28905.python-l...@python.org...
Arnaud Delobelle wrote:
Robert Kern robert.k...@gmail.com
Arnaud Delobelle arno...@googlemail.com wrote in message
news:m28wb6ypfs@googlemail.com...
Gabriel Genellina gagsl-...@yahoo.com.ar writes:
En Fri, 05 Feb 2010 19:22:39 -0300, bartc ba...@freeuk.com escribió:
Steve Holden st...@holdenweb.com wrote in message
On Sun, 07 Feb 2010 01:34:14 +, bartc wrote:
For a real-world example, it means instead of having a room with a
light-switch in it, if I *know* I want the light on or off, I should
have two rooms: one with the light permanently on, and one with it
permanently off, and just walk into the
* Steven D'Aprano:
On Sun, 07 Feb 2010 01:34:14 +, bartc wrote:
For a real-world example, it means instead of having a room with a
light-switch in it, if I *know* I want the light on or off, I should
have two rooms: one with the light permanently on, and one with it
permanently off, and
En Sat, 06 Feb 2010 22:34:14 -0300, bartc ba...@freeuk.com escribió:
Arnaud Delobelle arno...@googlemail.com wrote in message
news:m28wb6ypfs@googlemail.com...
Gabriel Genellina gagsl-...@yahoo.com.ar writes:
Note the *literal* part. If you (the programmer) is likely to know the
Robert Kern robert.k...@gmail.com writes:
I prefer Guido's formulation (which, naturally, I can't find a direct
quote for right now): if you expect that a boolean argument is only
going to take *literal* True or False, then it should be split into
two functions.
So rather than three boolean
Arnaud Delobelle wrote:
Robert Kern robert.k...@gmail.com writes:
I prefer Guido's formulation (which, naturally, I can't find a direct
quote for right now): if you expect that a boolean argument is only
going to take *literal* True or False, then it should be split into
two functions.
Steve Holden st...@holdenweb.com wrote in message
news:mailman.1998.1265399766.28905.python-l...@python.org...
Arnaud Delobelle wrote:
Robert Kern robert.k...@gmail.com writes:
I prefer Guido's formulation (which, naturally, I can't find a direct
quote for right now): if you expect that a
On 2010-02-05 16:22 PM, bartc wrote:
Steve Holden st...@holdenweb.com wrote in message
news:mailman.1998.1265399766.28905.python-l...@python.org...
Arnaud Delobelle wrote:
Robert Kern robert.k...@gmail.com writes:
I prefer Guido's formulation (which, naturally, I can't find a direct
quote
bartc wrote:
Steve Holden st...@holdenweb.com wrote in message
news:mailman.1998.1265399766.28905.python-l...@python.org...
Arnaud Delobelle wrote:
Robert Kern robert.k...@gmail.com writes:
I prefer Guido's formulation (which, naturally, I can't find a direct
quote for right now): if you
On Fri, 05 Feb 2010 22:22:39 +, bartc wrote:
Steve Holden st...@holdenweb.com wrote in message
news:mailman.1998.1265399766.28905.python-l...@python.org...
Arnaud Delobelle wrote:
Robert Kern robert.k...@gmail.com writes:
I prefer Guido's formulation (which, naturally, I can't find a
En Fri, 05 Feb 2010 19:22:39 -0300, bartc ba...@freeuk.com escribió:
Steve Holden st...@holdenweb.com wrote in message
news:mailman.1998.1265399766.28905.python-l...@python.org...
Arnaud Delobelle wrote:
Robert Kern robert.k...@gmail.com writes:
I prefer Guido's formulation (which,
This is obvious even in the Python documentation itself where one
frequently asks oneself Uhh... so what is parameter X supposed to be...
a string... a list... ?
That is partially why I created this search engine for python, to see
what parameters other people feed in.
http://nullege.com/
That is partially why I created this search engine for python, to see
what parameters other people feed in.
http://nullege.com/
Thank you for excellent effort! I found it very useful and start using
it on almost everyday basis. It's much simple to learn from real live
examples.
Vladimir
http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/message.php?msg_name=9c768dc61001121642t5bd1a7ddmd1fe9e088e1d9...@mail.gmail.com
Thanks a lot! That is a great reference (a must read for everybody
interested). Reading just this: Internally at Google we have a
language-neutral representation shared by all our
Vladimir Ignatov kmis...@gmail.com writes:
I notice however, that maintaining existing/older python code is may
be not so enjoyable task. It may be even harder than supporting old
code written in some type of static languages (like Java or C++).
Surely dynamic nature of python comes with
On Wed, 2010-02-03 at 14:10 +0300, Vladimir Ignatov wrote:
Hello,
I am sitting here for quite some time, but usually keep silent ;-) I
use Python since 2003 both professionally and for my hobby projects
and love it a much.
I notice however, that maintaining existing/older python code is may
Paul Rubin, 03.02.2010 14:07:
Instead of current text-oriented IDEs, it
should be a database-centric and resemble current CAD systems
I've never used a current CAD system, so I can't make any sense of this.
I don't see how databases would help.
Just like they help in current IDEs to
Adam Tauno Williams, 03.02.2010 14:18:
This is obvious even in the Python documentation itself where one
frequently asks oneself Uhh... so what is parameter X supposed to be...
a string... a list... ?
Not knocking Python; Python is great. I maintain a rapidly growing
Python code base.
Adam Tauno Williams wrote:
Yes, it certainly does. Not that you'll get many Pythonistas to confess
to that fact. Somehow those who brag about the readability and
expressiveness of source code just cannot admit that:
class.method(sting name, int count)
- is *obviously* more expressive than
This is obvious even in the Python documentation itself where one
frequently asks oneself Uhh... so what is parameter X supposed to be...
a string... a list... ?
Exactly. Often I don't need to know the exact type, but to figure out
that kind of type it is.
should be a database-centric and
On Feb 3, 12:10 pm, Vladimir Ignatov kmis...@gmail.com wrote:
Hello,
I am sitting here for quite some time, but usually keep silent ;-) I
use Python since 2003 both professionally and for my hobby projects
and love it a much.
I notice however, that maintaining existing/older python code is
Jean-Michel Pichavant jeanmic...@sequans.com writes:
class.method(string name, int count):
Return the cap'tain's age.
name: a string giving the name of the cap'tain daughter
count: an int giving the number of fingers left in the cap'tain
right hand
In python, attributes/parameters
The maintenance thing may be true but for me that doesn't outweigh the
clear benefits I get from using Python i.s.o. e.g. C++: the fact that
I have much less code that is more compact and for me more directly
readable is a clear advantage when doing maintance on code I didnt
touch for a
Yes, it certainly does. Not that you'll get many Pythonistas to confess
to that fact. Somehow those who brag about the readability and
expressiveness of source code just cannot admit that:
class.method(sting name, int count)
- is *obviously* more expressive than -
class.method(name,
On Wed, Feb 3, 2010 at 10:18 PM, Adam Tauno Williams
awill...@opengroupware.us wrote:
On Wed, 2010-02-03 at 14:10 +0300, Vladimir Ignatov wrote:
Hello,
I am sitting here for quite some time, but usually keep silent ;-) I
use Python since 2003 both professionally and for my hobby projects
and
Finally I develop a feeling that strong instrumentation / tools can
bring us the best of two worlds. That I am dreaming on is an absolute
new type/class of IDE suitable for Python and potentially for other
dynamic-type languages. Instead of current text-oriented IDEs, it
should be a
On Wed, 2010-02-03 at 16:23 +0100, Stef Mientki wrote:
Yes, it certainly does. Not that you'll get many Pythonistas
to confess
to that fact. Somehow those who brag about the readability
and
expressiveness of source code just cannot admit that:
I don't see what the advantage of the use of a database is in a fairly
linear hierarchical structure like python objects and modules.
Imagine simple operation like method renaming in a simple dumb
environment like text editor + grep. Now imagine how simple it can be
if system knows all your
On 03-02-2010 16:48, Vladimir Ignatov wrote:
I don't see what the advantage of the use of a database is in a fairly
linear hierarchical structure like python objects and modules.
Imagine simple operation like method renaming in a simple dumb
environment like text editor + grep. Now
-Original Message-
From: Vladimir Ignatov
Sent: 03/02/2010 7:24:26 pm
Subject: Re: Dreaming of new generation IDE
This is obvious even in the Python documentation itself where one
frequently asks oneself Uhh... so what is parameter X supposed to be...
a string... a list... ?
Exactly
Imagine simple operation like method renaming in a simple dumb
environment like text editor + grep. Now imagine how simple it can be
if system knows all your identifiers and just regenerates relevant
portions of text from internal database-alike representation.
I think every IDE (not older
On Feb 3, 3:10 am, Vladimir Ignatov kmis...@gmail.com wrote:
Finally I develop a feeling that strong instrumentation / tools can
bring us the best of two worlds. That I am dreaming on is an absolute
new type/class of IDE suitable for Python and potentially for other
dynamic-type languages.
Vladimir Ignatov kmis...@gmail.com writes:
Finally I develop a feeling that strong instrumentation / tools can
bring us the best of two worlds. That I am dreaming on is an absolute
new type/class of IDE suitable for Python and potentially for other
dynamic-type languages. Instead of current
On 03-02-2010 18:21, Vladimir Ignatov wrote:
Imagine simple operation like method renaming in a simple dumb
environment like text editor + grep. Now imagine how simple it can be
if system knows all your identifiers and just regenerates relevant
portions of text from internal database-alike
On Wed, 2010-02-03 at 10:05 -0800, Phlip wrote:
On Feb 3, 3:10 am, Vladimir Ignatov kmis...@gmail.com wrote:
Finally I develop a feeling that strong instrumentation / tools can
bring us the best of two worlds. That I am dreaming on is an absolute
new type/class of IDE suitable for Python
On Feb 3, 10:57 am, Adam Tauno Williams awill...@opengroupware.us
wrote:
Current editors suck because they can't see into the code and browse
it - unless it's so statically typed it's painful.
? I edit Python in MonoDevelop 2.2; and I can browse my file,
classes, etc... So I don't know
Phlip phlip2...@gmail.com writes:
On Feb 3, 10:57 am, Adam Tauno Williams awill...@opengroupware.us
wrote:
Current editors suck because they can't see into the code and browse
it - unless it's so statically typed it's painful.
? I edit Python in MonoDevelop 2.2; and I can browse my
Vladimir Ignatov wrote:
dynamic-type languages. Instead of current text-oriented IDEs, it
should be a database-centric and resemble current CAD systems instead
of being just fancy text editor. Source text should be an output
product of that CAD and not a source material itself.
can you sketch
John Bokma wrote:
my $x = ( 5, hello, sub {}, [], {} )[ int rand 5 ];
what's $x? The answer is: it depends.
That's why my blog post advocated (as usual for me) developer tests.
Then you either mock the rand, like all developers should, or you get
what you pay for, and Principle of Least
Phlip phlip2...@gmail.com writes:
John Bokma wrote:
my $x = ( 5, hello, sub {}, [], {} )[ int rand 5 ];
what's $x? The answer is: it depends.
That's why my blog post advocated (as usual for me) developer tests.
Then you either mock the rand, like all developers should, or you get
what
Robert no-s...@non-existing.invalid writes:
Vladimir Ignatov wrote:
dynamic-type languages. Instead of current text-oriented IDEs, it
should be a database-centric and resemble current CAD systems instead
of being just fancy text editor. Source text should be an output
product of that CAD and
can you sketch an example/use case more concretely?
Sorry, I don't have anything written down. I just have some rough idea
of implementation and some concrete features I would like to see in
such system. For example:
1) Instant refactoring. No more needs for manual
search/inspect/rename. Since
On 2010-02-03 14:40 PM, Robert wrote:
Vladimir Ignatov wrote:
dynamic-type languages. Instead of current text-oriented IDEs, it
should be a database-centric and resemble current CAD systems instead
of being just fancy text editor. Source text should be an output
product of that CAD and not a
I guess Vladimir means what's called a structure editor. The (by me)
aforementioned Synthesizer Generator is an example of such an editor
(environment).
Maybe. Yes, it kind of generator. It has (entered somehow) internal
representation of target program. Then it generates code out of this
On Wed, 03 Feb 2010 08:18:40 -0500, Adam Tauno Williams wrote:
On Wed, 2010-02-03 at 14:10 +0300, Vladimir Ignatov wrote:
Hello,
I am sitting here for quite some time, but usually keep silent ;-) I
use Python since 2003 both professionally and for my hobby projects
and love it a much.
I
On Wed, 03 Feb 2010 06:42:52 -0800, Paul Rubin wrote:
One nice trick with static types is if you change
what the method does (even if its type signature doesn't change), you
can rename the method:
class.method2(string name, int count): # change 'method' to
'method2'
and recompile
On Wed, 03 Feb 2010 18:48:12 +0300, Vladimir Ignatov wrote:
Imagine simple operation like method renaming in a simple dumb
environment like text editor + grep. Now imagine how simple it can be if
system knows all your identifiers and just regenerates relevant
portions of text from internal
On Wed, 03 Feb 2010 10:39:53 -0500, Adam Tauno Williams wrote:
On Wed, 2010-02-03 at 16:23 +0100, Stef Mientki wrote:
Yes, it certainly does. Not that you'll get many Pythonistas
to confess
to that fact. Somehow those who brag about the readability and
Steven D'Aprano ste...@remove.this.cybersource.com.au writes:
and recompile your codebase. Every place in the code that called
'method' now gets a compile time undefined method error that you can
examine to see if you need to update it. This is something you can't
catch with unit tests
Vladimir Ignatov kmis...@gmail.com writes:
I guess Vladimir means what's called a structure editor. The (by me)
aforementioned Synthesizer Generator is an example of such an editor
(environment).
Maybe. Yes, it kind of generator. It has (entered somehow) internal
representation of target
On 2/3/2010 8:18 AM, Adam Tauno Williams wrote:
class.method(sting name, int count)
- is *obviously* more expressive than -
class.method(name, count)
So write
class.method(name:str, count:int)-return_type # 3.x
if you really prefer.
In spite of you disparagement of 'pythonistas', it
On 2010-02-03 15:40 PM, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
On Wed, 03 Feb 2010 06:42:52 -0800, Paul Rubin wrote:
One nice trick with static types is if you change
what the method does (even if its type signature doesn't change), you
can rename the method:
class.method2(string name, int count): #
On 2010-02-03 15:37 PM, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
On Wed, 03 Feb 2010 08:18:40 -0500, Adam Tauno Williams wrote:
On Wed, 2010-02-03 at 14:10 +0300, Vladimir Ignatov wrote:
Hello,
I am sitting here for quite some time, but usually keep silent ;-) I
use Python since 2003 both professionally and
On Wed, 03 Feb 2010 16:38:21 -0600, Robert Kern wrote:
class.method(name, count)
Obviously? I don't know about that. Being told that count is an int
doesn't really help me -- it's obvious just from the name. In a well-
written API, what else could it be?
A bool. As in telling the method
On 2010-02-03 18:01 PM, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
On Wed, 03 Feb 2010 16:38:21 -0600, Robert Kern wrote:
class.method(name, count)
Obviously? I don't know about that. Being told that count is an int
doesn't really help me -- it's obvious just from the name. In a well-
written API, what else
Vladimir Ignatov wrote:
can you sketch an example/use case more concretely?
Sorry, I don't have anything written down. I just have some rough idea
of implementation and some concrete features I would like to see in
such system. For example:
1) Instant refactoring. No more needs for
Adam Tauno Williams awill...@opengroupware.us wrote:
This is obvious even in the Python documentation itself where one
frequently asks oneself Uhh... so what is parameter X supposed to be...
a string... a list... ?
Could you provide an actual example to support this?
The only places I tend to
Steven D'Aprano ste...@remove.this.cybersource.com.au writes:
On Wed, 03 Feb 2010 18:48:12 +0300, Vladimir Ignatov wrote:
[…] system knows all your identifiers and just regenerates
relevant portions of text from internal database-alike
representation.
You will probably want to learn about
Robert Kern robert.k...@gmail.com writes:
It is perfectly reasonable (and often necessary) for the unit test of
class B to use a mock object instead of a real A() instance. The unit
test for class B will fail to catch the renaming of A.foo() to A.bar()
because it never tries to call .foo() on
[…] system knows all your identifiers and just regenerates
relevant portions of text from internal database-alike
representation.
You will probably want to learn about “refactoring” to see if that's
related to what you mean URL:http://www.refactoring.com/.
I mean if system actually
On Thu, Feb 4, 2010 at 1:13 PM, Vladimir Ignatov kmis...@gmail.com wrote:
[…] system knows all your identifiers and just regenerates
relevant portions of text from internal database-alike
representation.
You will probably want to learn about “refactoring” to see if that's
related to what
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