Re: Business issues regarding adapting Python
Python-related programming job. Positions both very rare (comparing with Java/C++ - maybe 1/100) and not pays well. And about 99% of them are web+Django. To who/what are you replying? Nope. Just a replic. BTW I agreed - just peek a good programmers and let them learn python. Literally in a days they will be able to write average production code. Don't expect hovewer that this code will be a very pythonic. Especially from guys with strong C++ - like background. My advise - show em a generators. IMHO that is a mindblowing feature for everybody who get up from static-type languages. Vladimir -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Business issues regarding adapting Python
Nash wrote: cut can't get enough Python Developers I think normal market rules will apply to Pakistan too, if your desired trade has not the quantity you wish, the price per item should get higher. Net result should be that more quantity will be available due to increased interest. -- MPH http://blog.dcuktec.com 'If consumed, best digested with added seasoning to own preference.' -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Business issues regarding adapting Python
Ha-ha-ha (sorry, can't resist). Here is at Moscow/Russia I have had a tought time finding a Python-related programming job. Positions both very rare (comparing with Java/C++ - maybe 1/100) and not pays well. And about 99% of them are web+Django. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Business issues regarding adapting Python
Nash wrote: Hello everyone, I'm a big time python fan and it has helped me write code fast and push it out quickly. We have a medium sized telecom product written 90% in Python and 10% in Java. The problem is, in the place where we work (Pakistan), we can't find Python developers. I asked HR to send me figures on how many people do we have available who have worked with C++, Java, PHP and Python with 2-3 years of experience. They did a search on available candidates on Pakistan's biggest jobsite and this is what they sent: Language: Available Candidates in Pakistan (Available Candidates in our city) Java: 2020 (750) C++: 1540 (650) PHP: 630 (310) Python: 25 (4) Almost no-one shows up with Python experience when we put out a job opening and now it is becoming a real hurdle. Despite our liking and cost savings with the language, we are thinking about shifting to Java. 1. Have any of you faced a similar issue? How did you resolve it? 2. Do you think it makes sense to hire good programmers and train them on Python? 3. If we do train people in Python for say a month; are we just creating a team of mediocre programmers? Someone who has worked with Python for over an year is much different than someone who has worked with Python for only a month. 4. Any suggestions or idea? Related posts, articles etc would certainly help! I know that going Java will probably mean a 3x increase in the number of people that we have and require time for Python component replacement with Java ones. But for Business Continuity sake, management doesn't mind. Thanks a lot everyone! My 2 cents: We're about 5 people working with python on a quite complex application. No one of us had ever heard about python before starting on this project. And now, I'm so grateful to the guy who decided to use python, because everything is working perfectly well. Python is just an amazing easy-to-learn yet powerful language. I now use it whenever I can. JM -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Business issues regarding adapting Python
On Sep 27, 12:13 am, Nash nasrul...@gmail.com wrote: Hello everyone, I'm a big time python fan and it has helped me write code fast and push it out quickly. We have a medium sized telecom product written 90% in Python and 10% in Java. The problem is, in the place where we work (Pakistan), we can't find Python developers. I asked HR to send me figures on how many people do we have available who have worked with C++, Java, PHP and Python with 2-3 years of experience. They did a search on available candidates on Pakistan's biggest jobsite and this is what they sent: Language: Available Candidates in Pakistan (Available Candidates in our city) Java: 2020 (750) C++: 1540 (650) PHP: 630 (310) Python: 25 (4) Almost no-one shows up with Python experience when we put out a job opening and now it is becoming a real hurdle. Despite our liking and cost savings with the language, we are thinking about shifting to Java. 1. Have any of you faced a similar issue? How did you resolve it? 2. Do you think it makes sense to hire good programmers and train them on Python? 3. If we do train people in Python for say a month; are we just creating a team of mediocre programmers? Someone who has worked with Python for over an year is much different than someone who has worked with Python for only a month. 4. Any suggestions or idea? Related posts, articles etc would certainly help! I know that going Java will probably mean a 3x increase in the number of people that we have and require time for Python component replacement with Java ones. But for Business Continuity sake, management doesn't mind. Thanks a lot everyone! If I were the one looking for developers, I wouldn't search for people with Python experience. IMO, any good developer can rapidly learn to be a good Python developer. In contrast, ISTM that it takes at least 6 months to become a good Java developer and a couple years to become a decent C++ programmer. Python is distinct because it is not that hard to learn. So, if I were hiring, I would focus on general programming skills and knowledge of the problem domain. Raymond -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Business issues regarding adapting Python
Vladimir Ignatov wrote: Ha-ha-ha (sorry, can't resist). Here is at Moscow/Russia I have had a tought time finding a Python-related programming job. Positions both very rare (comparing with Java/C++ - maybe 1/100) and not pays well. And about 99% of them are web+Django. To who/what are you replying? -- MPH http://blog.dcuktec.com 'If consumed, best digested with added seasoning to own preference.' -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Business issues regarding adapting Python
Nash wrote: 3. If we do train people in Python for say a month; are we just creating a team of mediocre programmers? Someone who has worked with Python for over an year is much different than someone who has worked with Python for only a month. In my experience the best way to train new developers is to have them work on porting, maintenance, bug fixing, testing etc of your product. This way they get exposed to your code, methodologies, quirks and values (eg security, internationalization, test coverage etc). It only needs to happen for a few months and has them in a position where they will do little harm to the main development. You'll also get a good idea where they will be best deployed. If your existing code base is a good example for the new developers to follow then this should work very well even for developers new to Python (but competent in other languages). 4. Any suggestions or idea? Related posts, articles etc would certainly help! Start a user group: http://wiki.python.org/moin/LocalUserGroups There is a Pakistan Linux User's Group and so should be some affinity and overlap with them. I know that going Java will probably mean a 3x increase in the number of people that we have and require time for Python component replacement with Java ones. But for Business Continuity sake, management doesn't mind. Or you could offer to pay Python developers more, and make it known that is happening. You'll soon find some more supply :-) Hopefully your next question will be about interviewing Python developers ... Roger -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Business issues regarding adapting Python
Hi, Am Sun, 27 Sep 2009 00:13:47 -0700 (PDT) schrieb Nash nasrul...@gmail.com: I'm a big time python fan and it has helped me write code fast and push it out quickly. We have a medium sized telecom product written 90% in Python and 10% in Java. The problem is, in the place where we work (Pakistan), we can't find Python developers. I asked HR to send [...] 4. Any suggestions or idea? Related posts, articles etc would certainly help! http://www.paulgraham.com/pypar.html -- Gregor http://gregor-horvath.com -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Business issues regarding adapting Python
On Sun, 2009-09-27 at 00:13 -0700, Nash wrote: Hello everyone, Salam Valicum. I am Krishnakant from Mumbai India and in our country case was exactly the same but now pritty different in just a matter of few years. I have answered your queries inline with your questions so read on. I'm a big time python fan and it has helped me write code fast and push it out quickly. We have a medium sized telecom product written 90% in Python and 10% in Java. The problem is, in the place where we work (Pakistan), we can't find Python developers. I asked HR to send me figures on how many people do we have available who have worked with C++, Java, PHP and Python with 2-3 years of experience. They did a search on available candidates on Pakistan's biggest jobsite and this is what they sent: snip Almost no-one shows up with Python experience when we put out a job opening and now it is becoming a real hurdle. Despite our liking and cost savings with the language, we are thinking about shifting to Java. Well, As I said this was a case in India just a few years back. But now we pritty well find programmers in languages like python or ruby or php. The main reason for such growth in the number of python programmers is the awareness people like myself create amongst the masses of new computer programmres. Moreover the industry itself is slowly realising the time and resulting cost saving by making use of python. 1. Have any of you faced a similar issue? How did you resolve it? I currently lead the development of an accounting software called GNUKhata ( http://gnukhata.gnulinux.in ) which is totally developed in python. Let me tell you that none of the developers working on this project were python programmers. It took me about 15 days to train them till intermediate level. The trick here is to take good programmers who have good logical sence and have the fundamental idea of programming in some other language. For example the coordinator of this project knew .net pritty well and today she is a much better python programmer than me. 2. Do you think it makes sense to hire good programmers and train them on Python? Exactly. Look at my anser to your question number 1. 3. If we do train people in Python for say a month; are we just creating a team of mediocre programmers? Someone who has worked with Python for over an year is much different than someone who has worked with Python for only a month. Firstly, that's true with all programming languages. Whether you will create good efficient programmers in python depends on how well you use my trick of taking good programmers proficient in any other language, and yes they should be open to learning new languages. May I repeat, including GNUKhata, the accounting software I lead, all the projects I worked on, we hardly had python programmres. But we trained them by making them do porting work and also do some bug fixing. So the other hack is that you make the new python programmres port the code from let's say some module in Java. Now if you hire java programmers and decide to train them in python for example, then this trick works very well because they alredy know the language of the source module and now portint it to python. Now due to many such projects being done in huge companies in India, we have a good repository of python programmers. Remember that popularity of a programming language directly depends on how much you involve the programmers. 4. Any suggestions or idea? Related posts, articles etc would certainly help! I think you can find that your self. I know that going Java will probably mean a 3x increase in the number of people that we have and require time for Python component replacement with Java ones. But for Business Continuity sake, management doesn't mind. Well, If you take my words as coming from an experienced person, I highly recommend you to believe in what your inner feelings say about this decision. If you feel python will svae cost and time then just go ahead and train programmers in python. From your own experience you might have realised that trainning people in python for a month will be not as bad as trainning new programmers in java for a month. I mean the learning curve is very very narrow in python. Khuda Hafiz. Krishnakant. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Business issues regarding adapting Python
On Sep 27, 4:13 pm, Martin P. Hellwig martin.hell...@dcuktec.org wrote: Nash wrote: cut can't get enough Python Developers I think normal market rules will apply to Pakistan too, if your desired trade has not the quantity you wish, the price per item should get higher. Net result should be that more quantity will be available due to increased interest. -- MPHhttp://blog.dcuktec.com 'If consumed, best digested with added seasoning to own preference.' If I rephrase the question: In an absense of steady Python Developers; can there be a viable strategy involving training? Or will it be much safer going with an already common developer pool. Please note that my goal is not to promote python but to make a sound business decision. Using Python is not an absolute requirement. I appreciate all the feedback thus far, please keep it coming in, thanks everyone! -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Business issues regarding adapting Python
On Sun, Sep 27, 2009 at 10:48 AM, Nash nasrul...@gmail.com wrote: On Sep 27, 4:13 pm, Martin P. Hellwig martin.hell...@dcuktec.org wrote: Nash wrote: cut can't get enough Python Developers I think normal market rules will apply to Pakistan too, if your desired trade has not the quantity you wish, the price per item should get higher. Net result should be that more quantity will be available due to increased interest. -- MPHhttp://blog.dcuktec.com 'If consumed, best digested with added seasoning to own preference.' If I rephrase the question: In an absense of steady Python Developers; can there be a viable strategy involving training? Or will it be much safer going with an already common developer pool. Please note that my goal is not to promote python but to make a sound business decision. Using Python is not an absolute requirement. I appreciate all the feedback thus far, please keep it coming in, thanks everyone! -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list Hire good programmers, they can pick up python rapidly. It's widely acknowledged that hiring good people is a (the?) crucial factor in the success of programming endeavors. Good programmers, almost by definition, will be able to handle learning python without problems. Just my $0.02, ~Simon -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Business issues regarding adapting Python
On Sun, 2009-09-27 at 10:57 -0400, Simon Forman wrote: On Sun, Sep 27, 2009 at 10:48 AM, Nash nasrul...@gmail.com wrote: On Sep 27, 4:13 pm, Martin P. Hellwig martin.hell...@dcuktec.org wrote: Nash wrote: cut can't get enough Python Developers I think normal market rules will apply to Pakistan too, if your desired trade has not the quantity you wish, the price per item should get higher. Net result should be that more quantity will be available due to increased interest. -- MPHhttp://blog.dcuktec.com 'If consumed, best digested with added seasoning to own preference.' If I rephrase the question: In an absense of steady Python Developers; can there be a viable strategy involving training? Or will it be much safer going with an already common developer pool. Please note that my goal is not to promote python but to make a sound business decision. Using Python is not an absolute requirement. I appreciate all the feedback thus far, please keep it coming in, thanks everyone! -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list Hire good programmers, they can pick up python rapidly. Bingo! That's the point even I mentioned to Nash in my last email. When I take interviews of programmres aspiring for a job, I never ask them which programming language they know and never take them on the basis of how good they are in comparison to that language for my projects (in python for example ). It's widely acknowledged that hiring good people is a (the?) crucial factor in the success of programming endeavors. Good programmers, almost by definition, will be able to handle learning python without problems. + the easy and power of python. Happy hacking. Krishnakant. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Business issues regarding adapting Python
Nash nasrul...@gmail.com wrote: If I rephrase the question: In an absense of steady Python Developers; can there be a viable strategy involving training? Or will it be much safer going with an already common developer pool. My experience has been that: a) Python developers come from the better end of the programmer pool. It doesn't really matter that there are 100 times as many PHP programmer if you wouldn't want to employ 99% of them. In an environment where the Python programmers are rare you can be pretty sure that the ones there are the ones with an interest in finding out the best way to do things, not just the ones for whom cutting code is a 9 to 5 job. b) Python is pretty easy to learn. Any half way competent programmer picks it up pretty quickly. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Business issues regarding adapting Python
Nash wrote: cut my own short tempered answer :-) If I rephrase the question: In an absense of steady Python Developers; can there be a viable strategy involving training? Or will it be much safer going with an already common developer pool. Please note that my goal is not to promote python but to make a sound business decision. Using Python is not an absolute requirement. I appreciate all the feedback thus far, please keep it coming in, thanks everyone! I would like to say YES!, however there is no general answer. Much of it depends on your business strategy. If your average flow-out of programmers is less then two* years (whether this is due to management, location, reward system, trigger happy HR or anything else doesn't matter) than it is not cost effective to 'train' your staff. So the options left are hire 'expensive' staff which meet your requirements or adjust your requirements and hire 'less expensive' staff. However if you intend to have staff for long term periods and do what you need to do to keep them happy (market conform or above salary, room for personal improvements, keeping politics away and no micro-management), than training staff up to your requirements may be cost effective and is generally beneficial not only for the sheer work that needs to be done. Actually if you make sure you have self motivated people with reasonable intelligence they will do much of that training for them self, the only thing you need to give them is time and a clear understanding what the long-term expectation is. The expectation bit is very important and should be detailed, well at least for you. How can you blame your staff for not being up to expectation if you are not sure for yourself what it should be. So in short, if you run your business where people are considered more than resources, training is beneficial and provides long term stability. *YMMV -- MPH http://blog.dcuktec.com 'If consumed, best digested with added seasoning to own preference.' -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
