Re: [Ql-Users] WIN drive gone missing
Op Sun, 20 Mar 2016 12:54:07 +0100 schreef Urs Koenig (QL) : (...) Last Thursday I was repeatedly able to reproduce the freeze using my QL/E v3.13 wip (work-in-progress). I then reduced the steps needed to get the freeze. In the end I can say you can get the freeze when doing this scenario: 1. Start QL/E (e.g. start QPC2.exe). 2. From now on do not use the mouse, do not use the mouse pointer. 3. After the BOOT sequence of QL/E is completed (SBASIC job 0 is minimised as "System" in the button frame, wait until Photo QL has completed displaying the QL collection photo) press +<\> to pick "System". 4. Now that you see the BOOT process windows in the middle of the screen press + to pick QPAC2 "Files". 5. Once QPAC2 "Files" is on screen press then followed by to choose the drive "WIN1_" as the Source Directory. 6. Now the QL/E system freezes! Urs, I repeated your process to the letter with SMSQ/m (8217) and QPC2 (4.02/3.22) and an unchanged copy QLE.win from the Nov.2015 update. Both did NOT freeze on access to WIN1_. I selected and Viewed the Boot file from Files using only the keyboard. No problems. My laptop is already in its seventh year with a conventional SATA HDD running W$7. Yours I suspect, is running W$10 from an SSD. Could that be an issue? (...) I then found an easy workaround for the Freeze case. Perform one time a simple SAVE WIN1_boot_bak (e.g. between steps 3 and 4) and you never get the freeze. My feeling is that QPAC2 Files has a problem when displaying the content of the chosen Source Directory WIN1_ at exactly the position where QPAC2 Files is positioned in above mentioned scenario. So you suggest to write something to WIN1_ before opening Files? That's something my normal Boot already does. A list of actually loaded extensions is generated and saved before I have time to do anything useful. That is the beauty / problem with SMSQ/E, everybody has a completely different Boot. Enjoy the sunny Sunday! At the moment it's quite gray here. That's why I have a sunny picture of the Scottish Highlands as wallpaper. QLE forever! Bob -- The BSJR QL software site at: http://members.upc.nl/b.spelten/ql/ ___ QL-Users Mailing List
Re: [Ql-Users] WIN drive gone missing
Urs Koenig (QL) wrote: > Because we have a Windows Freeze case at work which is very hard to trace > and analyse (visitors of the ZX-TEAM meeting will know) I wanted to at least > catch the QL/E Freeze case. > Last Thursday I was repeatedly able to reproduce the freeze using my QL/E > v3.13 wip (work-in-progress). I then reduced the steps needed to get the > freeze. In the end I can say you can get the freeze when doing this > scenario: > 1. Start QL/E (e.g. start QPC2.exe). > 2. From now on do not use the mouse, do not use the mouse pointer. > 3. After the BOOT sequence of QL/E is completed (SBASIC job 0 is minimised > as "System" in the button frame, wait until Photo QL has completed > displaying the QL collection photo) press +<\> to pick "System". > 4. Now that you see the BOOT process windows in the middle of the screen > press + to pick QPAC2 "Files". > 5. Once QPAC2 "Files" is on screen press then followed by > to choose the drive "WIN1_" as the Source Directory. > 6. Now the QL/E system freezes! Okay, I can reproduce it. But the crash happens in the screen driver. The problem is that SMSQ/E does not have any kind of memory protection and you're loading a quadrillion extensions at boot-time. Any one of them could be responsible of corrupting the memory in a way that QPAC2 will crash later on without being at fault itself. Trying to track down these kind of problems is a huge pain, not sure if I can find the time to do so. Cheers, Marcel ___ QL-Users Mailing List
Re: [Ql-Users] WIN drive gone missing
Hi, Is it possible the problem lies with Qpac2. I have been ytrying to disassemble Qpac2 to try and improve Files. But it is quite hard to reverse engineer something like Qpac2. Since the binary version of Qpac2 is download able, is it possible for the source code to be related under some sort of licence. Regards Derek Original message From: Wolfgang Lenerz Date: 20/03/2016 16:42 (GMT+00:00) To: ql-us...@q-v-d.com Subject: Re: [Ql-Users] WIN drive gone missing Hi, I downloaded QLE from your website. used SMSQmulator 8 from that distribution, with the SMSQE that came with it. I followed all of your steps. No Problem here. > Last Thursday I was repeatedly able to reproduce the freeze using my QL/E > v3.13 wip (work-in-progress). I then reduced the steps needed to get the > freeze. In the end I can say you can get the freeze when doing this > scenario: > 1. Start QL/E (e.g. start QPC2.exe). check > 2. From now on do not use the mouse, do not use the mouse pointer. check > 3. After the BOOT sequence of QL/E is completed (SBASIC job 0 is minimised > as "System" in the button frame, wait until Photo QL has completed > displaying the QL collection photo) press +<\> to pick "System". no, it's ALT+ > > 4. Now that you see the BOOT process windows in the middle of the screen > press + to pick QPAC2 "Files". check > 5. Once QPAC2 "Files" is on screen press then followed by > to choose the drive "WIN1_" as the Source Directory. check > 6. Now the QL/E system freezes! Nope Wolfgang ___ QL-Users Mailing List ___ QL-Users Mailing List
Re: [Ql-Users] WIN drive gone missing
Hi Urs, tut mir leid, du wirst auf der Liste gesehen haben dass es bei mir keinen "Freeze" gibt. 2 Fragen: Ich sehe, dass Du menu_rext und menuconfig dabei hast. Darf man deise Programme jetzt frei verteilen (ich dachte JMS hätte das nicht freigegeben)? 2 - Hast du mit Markus sprechen können? Alles Gute Wolfgang ___ QL-Users Mailing List
Re: [Ql-Users] WIN drive gone missing
Hi, I downloaded QLE from your website. used SMSQmulator 8 from that distribution, with the SMSQE that came with it. I followed all of your steps. No Problem here. Last Thursday I was repeatedly able to reproduce the freeze using my QL/E v3.13 wip (work-in-progress). I then reduced the steps needed to get the freeze. In the end I can say you can get the freeze when doing this scenario: 1. Start QL/E (e.g. start QPC2.exe). check 2. From now on do not use the mouse, do not use the mouse pointer. check 3. After the BOOT sequence of QL/E is completed (SBASIC job 0 is minimised as "System" in the button frame, wait until Photo QL has completed displaying the QL collection photo) press +<\> to pick "System". no, it's ALT+ > 4. Now that you see the BOOT process windows in the middle of the screen press + to pick QPAC2 "Files". check 5. Once QPAC2 "Files" is on screen press then followed by to choose the drive "WIN1_" as the Source Directory. check 6. Now the QL/E system freezes! Nope Wolfgang ___ QL-Users Mailing List
Re: [Ql-Users] WIN drive gone missing
Marcel Kilgus wrote: > > Yesterday I had a similar freeze/crash but I put that down to a fault > > in the program I am updating. > > No QPAC2 File access at that moment. > > So today's QPC2 session started OK but at the time of the crash I was > > using Files (?). > > There are about a billion ways to crash SMSQ/E, so I wouldn't count on your > problems being the same. Personally I never had Files crash on me and even > then it's more likely that the device driver is at fault, but if somebody can > reproduce it I can have a look. As it may be known I'm maintaining QL/E - a pre-configured and ready to go QL environment (applications, desktops, games, tools, utilities) using the latest versions of the virtual QL machines (aka emulators) QPC2 and SMSQmulator and the Operating System SMSQ/E - since 2002. Since 2014 QL/E is part of THE DISTRIBUTION. Core of QL/E is a "QXL.WIN" file named QLE.win (a virtual WINchester hard-drives in QXL format). Last public release is v3.11 from Nov 2nd 2015. This version is fine-tuned for use with QPC2, SMSQmulator and QXL. Download link: http://www.sinclairql.net/repository.html#QLE For a couple of months now (the winter) I was busy adapting QL/E for other QL compatible platforms running under QDOS/Minerva, such as systems which include the emulators Q-emuLator, uQLx (Raspberry Pi) plus also real hardware like MIST (QL core with QL-SD support) and the original Sinclair QL with QL-SD. I'm almost ready with this and shall release QL/E v3.13 in the coming weeks if not days. While testing QL/E on various systems and with various scenarios and use cases I experienced several FREEZEs of the OS (the QL side, not the host when running the QL as an emulation). After such freezes the only possibility to bring the QL/E system back to life was to "power it off" and restart it. In terms of QPC2 a restart was only successful after a remaining but invisible QPC2 task has been terminated using the Windows Task manager. At around the 2016 ZX-TEAM meeting which took place last weekend in Germany I experienced multiple freezes of QL/E. OK, I was QLing many many hours recently. The more hours you run QL(/E) environments the greater is the chance you experience something. The good thing was that I got the impression that there's a common pattern to the freezes. I got the impression that it always was when QPAC2 Files was used. Because we have a Windows Freeze case at work which is very hard to trace and analyse (visitors of the ZX-TEAM meeting will know) I wanted to at least catch the QL/E Freeze case. Last Thursday I was repeatedly able to reproduce the freeze using my QL/E v3.13 wip (work-in-progress). I then reduced the steps needed to get the freeze. In the end I can say you can get the freeze when doing this scenario: 1. Start QL/E (e.g. start QPC2.exe). 2. From now on do not use the mouse, do not use the mouse pointer. 3. After the BOOT sequence of QL/E is completed (SBASIC job 0 is minimised as "System" in the button frame, wait until Photo QL has completed displaying the QL collection photo) press +<\> to pick "System". 4. Now that you see the BOOT process windows in the middle of the screen press + to pick QPAC2 "Files". 5. Once QPAC2 "Files" is on screen press then followed by to choose the drive "WIN1_" as the Source Directory. 6. Now the QL/E system freezes! What I did to isolate the problem relies on QPAC2 or at least is caused by QPAC2 is: - Running QL/E with SMSQmulator does also freeze. > It's not a QPC2 problem. - Running QL/E with other version of SMSQ/E does also freeze. > If it's a SMSQ/E problem then it's there for some time already. - Executing DRVCHK and DRVLINK does not find anything wrong with the QLE.win. - Copying the entire content of the QLE.win to a freshly formatted QLE.win and the running QL/E. with this does also freeze. > It's not a problem of the content/structure of the "QXL.WIN" file - Using the BOOT file of previous versions of QL/E does not help; such a modified system does also freeze. - After inspecting and comparing various QLE.wins (some which have been used and new files have been created or files have been deleted) I found out that some of those do not freeze. I then found an easy workaround for the Freeze case. Perform one time a simple SAVE WIN1_boot_bak (e.g. between steps 3 and 4) and you never get the freeze. My feeling is that QPAC2 Files has a problem when displaying the content of the chosen Source Directory WIN1_ at exactly the position where QPAC2 Files is positioned in above mentioned scenario. Enjoy the sunny Sunday! QL forever! Urs ___ QL-Users Mailing List
Re: [Ql-Users] WIN drive gone missing
On Sun, 20 Mar 2016, at 10:59 AM, Bob Spelten wrote: > Op Sun, 20 Mar 2016 10:23:27 +0100 schreef Derek Stewart : > > > Hi, > > > > This sounds like a Windows Feature or bug? > > > W$ is often very busy in the background, not clear to me what with. > Recently I have noticed sometimes a delay when opening Files before the > list is produced. > Is that W$ putting QPC2 on hold? Who knows. > Thats not a great mystery, the virus checker is hooked into the open file action! Graeme ___ QL-Users Mailing List
Re: [Ql-Users] WIN drive gone missing
Op Sun, 20 Mar 2016 10:23:27 +0100 schreef Derek Stewart : Hi, This sounds like a Windows Feature or bug? W$ is often very busy in the background, not clear to me what with. Recently I have noticed sometimes a delay when opening Files before the list is produced. Is that W$ putting QPC2 on hold? Who knows. I have never had a lockup of SMSQ/E since using a Gold Card Version in the mid 1990s That seems a remarkable record. Seems impossible when developing programs, so mostly when it happens to me, I can blame my code. I use Linux and SMSQmulator, QPC2, QEmulator and they have never locked out any WIN drives. I have a fresh Linux machine set up and QPC2 seems even to be faster there. But so far it's only been a quick test. Migrating is not something I want to do in the middle of a project and it's not so simple when I have direct access to most of my data on W$ from QPC2. Bob -- The BSJR QL software site at: http://members.upc.nl/b.spelten/ql/ ___ QL-Users Mailing List
Re: [Ql-Users] WIN drive gone missing
Hi, This sounds like a Windows Feature or bug? I have never had a lockup of SMSQ/E since using a Gold Card Version in the mid 1990s I use Linux and SMSQmulator, QPC2, QEmulator and they have never locked out any WIN drives. Regards, Derek On 19/03/16 03:57, Timothy Swenson wrote: I agree with Wolfgang in that there probably was an outstanding file lock on the .WIN file. The file lock would keep other programs from writing to the .WIN file, but it would allow programs to read from it. This is why you could copy it and why SMSQmulator said it was read-only. The reboot cleared the lock and all was well. The cause of the crash might be difficult to determine. Windows is not easy to troubleshoot. There is no truss or par trace capability built into the OS (at least not that I am aware of), so you can't look inside a process to see what is happening. I remember the old bit: "The software said to install Windows 95 or better, so I installed Linux." Tim Swenson ___ QL-Users Mailing List ___ QL-Users Mailing List