Re: [Ql-Users] SERNET question

[Wolf]

It isn't on the sources I originally got, hence it isn't part of the 
SMSQ/E sources.


I'll have a look-see whether I can find a version of it on old disks.

Wolfgang
On 25/04/2017 00:35, Dilwyn Jones wrote:

It took a little longer than I expected to gather the files together and
upload... Sernet is now available to download from Toolkits page on my
website at:

http://www.dilwyn.me.uk/tk/index.html

Note that I only have the two station version of sernet, I will gladly add
the multi-station version if anyone has a copy.

Note also that Sernet requires split receive/transmit serial ports so this
normally needs SMSQ/E. It *might* be possible to achieve this on QDOS using
the SimSer extensions (link on my page) but I have never tested this.

Also happy to add V3 if anyone has a copy.

Dilwyn

-Original Message- From: Giorgio Garabello
Sent: Monday, April 24, 2017 10:43 PM
To: ql-us...@q-v-d.com
Subject: Re: [Ql-Users] SERNET question

This is good news, has it officially released?

2017-04-24 23:39 GMT+02:00 Marcel Kilgus :


Dilwyn Jones wrote:
> Bernd Reinhardt in Germany did most of the work on Sernet. If anyone is
> still in contact with him, he could give a definitive answer.

I talked to him a few weeks ago, he's generally fine with his stuff
being free.

Marcel

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Re: [Ql-Users] SMSQ/E and unset variables

[Jan Bredenbeek]

On 24 April 2017 at 18:27, Dilwyn Jones 
wrote:


> When SBASIC was first mooted, I remember that there was at the time
> discussion that other BASICs gave variables default zero value rather than
> stopping with an error - "why couldn't the QL do this?"
>
> Don't know if that influenced Tony Tebby to make SBASIC variables behave
> in this way or not, or was that just coincidence?
>

I've been struggling with this issue too when adapting the Spectrum's BASIC
for BASICODE, which was largely based on M$ BASIC. This allowed default
values for variables, which broke computers like the Spectrum and BBC. The
official BASICODE spec required proper initialisation of variables but this
was a common mistake among programmers that went undetected many times
because of poor testing before airing (obviously they used a C64 as testing
machine ;)). Since my adapted BASIC was expected to be used mainly to run
existing programs I decided to allow defaults (and leave out syntax checks
at entry too).

So, default variable values might probably be a good thing to run BASIC
programs converted from other platforms, but a bad thing when developing
your own.

-- 
*Jan Bredenbeek* | Hilversum, NL | j...@bredenbeek.net
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Re: [Ql-Users] SMSQ/E and unset variables

[Michael Bulford]

Hi all,

Thanks for your comments.  I will look into both XREF and QREF which I have on 
my system.

My latest thoughts are that perhaps we can combine the best of both worlds.  We 
can continue to have default values of zero in the case of locals, while at the 
same time give an error if no value is available.  Any global variables used 
will need to be initialised.  Locals do get initialised and so are seen as bona 
fide variables.  Looking at the SB name table, this is easy to see, even using 
SBASIC.  Using Turbo toolkit, a "type" function can be defined as ...

DEFine FuNction type(var)
LOCal var$(127)
 var$ = PARNAM$(1)
 RETurn BASIC_B%(BASIC_L(24)+BASIC_INDEX%(var$)*8)
END DEFine type

This function returns 2 if var has a value, else zero.
By giving an error, this will trap both spelling mistakes and also variables 
accessed out of scope.
Michael Bulford
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Re: [Ql-Users] SERNET question

[Dilwyn Jones]

I realise that I only have the two-station version. There is a multi-station 
version which needs slightly more complex serial cabling (circular link) but 
I don't have a copy of this.


Dilwyn

-Original Message- 
From: Giorgio Garabello

Sent: Monday, April 24, 2017 10:54 PM
To: ql-us...@q-v-d.com
Subject: Re: [Ql-Users] SERNET question

What's the latest version?

2017-04-24 23:42 GMT+02:00 Dilwyn Jones :


Thank you Marcel. I'll see if I have a full set of recent Sernet files to
make available.

Dilwyn

-Original Message- From: Marcel Kilgus
Sent: Monday, April 24, 2017 10:39 PM
To: ql-us...@q-v-d.com
Subject: Re: [Ql-Users] SERNET question

Dilwyn Jones wrote:


Bernd Reinhardt in Germany did most of the work on Sernet. If anyone is
still in contact with him, he could give a definitive answer.



I talked to him a few weeks ago, he's generally fine with his stuff
being free.

Marcel

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Re: [Ql-Users] SERNET question

[Dilwyn Jones]

The latest version I have here is version 2.25. I'm just putting the set of 
files together now to add to my website.


Dilwyn

-Original Message- 
From: Giorgio Garabello

Sent: Monday, April 24, 2017 10:54 PM
To: ql-us...@q-v-d.com
Subject: Re: [Ql-Users] SERNET question

What's the latest version?

2017-04-24 23:42 GMT+02:00 Dilwyn Jones :


Thank you Marcel. I'll see if I have a full set of recent Sernet files to
make available.

Dilwyn

-Original Message- From: Marcel Kilgus
Sent: Monday, April 24, 2017 10:39 PM
To: ql-us...@q-v-d.com
Subject: Re: [Ql-Users] SERNET question

Dilwyn Jones wrote:


Bernd Reinhardt in Germany did most of the work on Sernet. If anyone is
still in contact with him, he could give a definitive answer.



I talked to him a few weeks ago, he's generally fine with his stuff
being free.

Marcel

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Re: [Ql-Users] SERNET question

[Giorgio Garabello]

What's the latest version?

2017-04-24 23:42 GMT+02:00 Dilwyn Jones :

> Thank you Marcel. I'll see if I have a full set of recent Sernet files to
> make available.
>
> Dilwyn
>
> -Original Message- From: Marcel Kilgus
> Sent: Monday, April 24, 2017 10:39 PM
> To: ql-us...@q-v-d.com
> Subject: Re: [Ql-Users] SERNET question
>
> Dilwyn Jones wrote:
>
>> Bernd Reinhardt in Germany did most of the work on Sernet. If anyone is
>> still in contact with him, he could give a definitive answer.
>>
>
> I talked to him a few weeks ago, he's generally fine with his stuff
> being free.
>
> Marcel
>
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Re: [Ql-Users] SERNET question

[Marcel Kilgus]

Giorgio Garabello wrote:
> This is good news, has it officially released?

No. But if somebody wants to do it, it should be fine.

Marcel

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Re: [Ql-Users] SERNET question

[Giorgio Garabello]

This is good news, has it officially released?

2017-04-24 23:39 GMT+02:00 Marcel Kilgus :

> Dilwyn Jones wrote:
> > Bernd Reinhardt in Germany did most of the work on Sernet. If anyone is
> > still in contact with him, he could give a definitive answer.
>
> I talked to him a few weeks ago, he's generally fine with his stuff
> being free.
>
> Marcel
>
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Re: [Ql-Users] SERNET question

[Dilwyn Jones]

I'm sorry, I don't know.

Dilwyn

-Original Message- 
From: Giorgio Garabello 
Sent: Monday, April 24, 2017 10:30 PM 
To: ql-us...@q-v-d.com 
Subject: Re: [Ql-Users] SERNET question 


Can I download it somewhere?

2017-04-24 23:15 GMT+02:00 Dilwyn Jones :


Bernd Reinhardt in Germany did most of the work on Sernet. If anyone is
still in contact with him, he could give a definitive answer.

Dilwyn Jones

-Original Message- From: Giorgio Garabello
Sent: Monday, April 24, 2017 8:26 PM
To: ql-us...@q-v-d.com
Subject: [Ql-Users] SERNET question

Hi, SERNET is free or commercial?

Thanks
Giorgio
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Re: [Ql-Users] SERNET question

[Marcel Kilgus]

Dilwyn Jones wrote:
> Bernd Reinhardt in Germany did most of the work on Sernet. If anyone is
> still in contact with him, he could give a definitive answer.

I talked to him a few weeks ago, he's generally fine with his stuff
being free.

Marcel

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Re: [Ql-Users] SERNET question

[Giorgio Garabello]

Can I download it somewhere?

2017-04-24 23:15 GMT+02:00 Dilwyn Jones :

> Bernd Reinhardt in Germany did most of the work on Sernet. If anyone is
> still in contact with him, he could give a definitive answer.
>
> Dilwyn Jones
>
> -Original Message- From: Giorgio Garabello
> Sent: Monday, April 24, 2017 8:26 PM
> To: ql-us...@q-v-d.com
> Subject: [Ql-Users] SERNET question
>
> Hi, SERNET is free or commercial?
>
> Thanks
> Giorgio
> ___
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>
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> This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
> http://www.avg.com
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Re: [Ql-Users] SERNET question

[Dilwyn Jones]

Bernd Reinhardt in Germany did most of the work on Sernet. If anyone is 
still in contact with him, he could give a definitive answer.


Dilwyn Jones

-Original Message- 
From: Giorgio Garabello

Sent: Monday, April 24, 2017 8:26 PM
To: ql-us...@q-v-d.com
Subject: [Ql-Users] SERNET question

Hi, SERNET is free or commercial?

Thanks
Giorgio
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Re: [Ql-Users] SERNET question

[Michael Grunditz]

I am using the binaries I got with my old Q40. But everything QL
related is now down in storage.

On 24 April 2017 at 22:04, Giorgio Garabello  wrote:
> I did not find any traces on Lenerz's site
>
> 2017-04-24 21:55 GMT+02:00 Michael Grunditz :
>
>> I have asked the same question before.
>> SERNET used to be supplied with SMSQ/E I guess. I think it should be
>> on the SMSQ/E site.
>>
>> Just my thoughts.
>>
>> Michael
>>
>> On 24 April 2017 at 21:26, Giorgio Garabello 
>> wrote:
>> > Hi, SERNET is free or commercial?
>> >
>> > Thanks
>> > Giorgio
>> > ___
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Re: [Ql-Users] SERNET question

[Giorgio Garabello]

I did not find any traces on Lenerz's site

2017-04-24 21:55 GMT+02:00 Michael Grunditz :

> I have asked the same question before.
> SERNET used to be supplied with SMSQ/E I guess. I think it should be
> on the SMSQ/E site.
>
> Just my thoughts.
>
> Michael
>
> On 24 April 2017 at 21:26, Giorgio Garabello 
> wrote:
> > Hi, SERNET is free or commercial?
> >
> > Thanks
> > Giorgio
> > ___
> > QL-Users Mailing List
> ___
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>
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Re: [Ql-Users] SERNET question

[Michael Grunditz]

I have asked the same question before.
SERNET used to be supplied with SMSQ/E I guess. I think it should be
on the SMSQ/E site.

Just my thoughts.

Michael

On 24 April 2017 at 21:26, Giorgio Garabello  wrote:
> Hi, SERNET is free or commercial?
>
> Thanks
> Giorgio
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[Ql-Users] SERNET question

[Giorgio Garabello]

Hi, SERNET is free or commercial?

Thanks
Giorgio
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Re: [Ql-Users] SMSQ/E and unset variables

[Ralf Reköndt]

Yes, everyone should read "A Brief History". But exactly this case was 
not bespoken ;-).


Ralf


Am 24.04.2017 um 18:27 schrieb Dilwyn Jones:
When QDOS evaluates an expression and encounters a variable with no 
value assigned, it STOPs with “error
in expression” and reports the line number.  The programmer may well 
have made some spelling mistake, and can immediately make a 
correction.  QDOS is doing exactly what the programmer wants.


Can SMSQ/E be upgraded to follow suit?

Currently, in the above-mentioned case, SMSQ/E will use a zero value 
and will carry on blindly with no error reported.  The assumption is 
made that any new variable will have a default value of zero.  This 
behaviour does not take account of the fact that people are human and 
will sometimes make spelling mistakes.  The unintentional mistake 
gets buried and lost in the middle of the code.  I can spend a great 
deal of time and effort composing a program; I can type it all in, 
and can even double check it, but I can still overlook things.  After 
writing a program in SMSQ/E, I can never be certain that it is free 
of typos.  There is this constant anxiety in the mind.  Programming 
can be difficult, even without the additional workload required of 
having to track down possible spelling mistakes, when there might be 
none at all - one can never tell.  QDOS is much friendlier in this 
respect.  This is why I would like for SMSQ/E to be upgraded to act 
like QDOS.  If this would entail a slight loss of efficiency, then 
that would be acceptable.  For me, the most important aspect of 
programming is to be able to write code that is going to work as 
intended.  If SMSQ/E could be upgraded, then this would mean that all 
new variables would need to be initialised with values before
they are used.  This would apply to both global and local variables 
in procedure/functions.  However, this is a recognised good practice 
in any case.  It is good practice because these initialisations are 
being documented.  We have to remember that others will want to look 
at and understand the code we write. SMSQ/E would be enforcing this 
desirable state of affairs, as QDOS does.


Michael Bulford
When SBASIC was first mooted, I remember that there was at the time 
discussion that other BASICs gave variables default zero value rather 
than stopping with an error - "why couldn't the QL do this?"


Don't know if that influenced Tony Tebby to make SBASIC variables 
behave in this way or not, or was that just coincidence?


Dilwyn

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Re: [Ql-Users] SMSQ/E and unset variables

[pjwitte]

I  agree. Its annoying. In the mean time you could try DP's XREF 
utility. It lists all variables alphabetically together with the line 
number on which it is defined and on which it is used. This quickly 
reveals spelling mistakes and provides other useful debugging 
information. Works a doddle on SMSQ/E too.


Per

On 24/04/2017 12:46, Michael Bulford wrote:

Hi all,

When QDOS evaluates an expression and encounters a variable with no value 
assigned, it STOPs with “error
in expression” and reports the line number.  The programmer may well have made 
some spelling mistake, and can immediately make a correction.  QDOS is doing 
exactly what the programmer wants.

Can SMSQ/E be upgraded to follow suit?

Currently, in the above-mentioned case, SMSQ/E will use a zero value and will 
carry on blindly with no error reported.  The assumption is made that any new 
variable will have a default value of zero.  This behaviour does not take 
account of the fact that people are human and will sometimes make spelling 
mistakes.  The unintentional mistake gets buried and lost in the middle of the 
code.  I can spend a great deal of time and effort composing a program; I can 
type it all in, and can even double check it, but I can still overlook things.  
After writing a program in SMSQ/E, I can never be certain that it is free of 
typos.  There is this constant anxiety in the mind.  Programming can be 
difficult, even without the additional workload required of having to track 
down possible spelling mistakes, when there might be none at all - one can 
never tell.  QDOS is much friendlier in this respect.  This is why I would like 
for SMSQ/E to be upgraded to act like QDOS.  If this would entail a slight loss 
of efficiency, then that would be acceptable.  For me, the most important 
aspect of programming is to be able to write code that is going to work as 
intended.  If SMSQ/E could be upgraded, then this would mean that all new 
variables would need to be initialised with values before
they are used.  This would apply to both global and local variables in 
procedure/functions.  However, this is a recognised good practice in any case.  
It is good practice because these initialisations are being documented.  We 
have to remember that others will want to look at and understand the code we 
write.  SMSQ/E would be enforcing this desirable state of affairs, as QDOS does.

Michael Bulford
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[Ql-Users] SMSQ/E and unset variables

[Michael Bulford]

Hi all,

When QDOS evaluates an expression and encounters a variable with no value 
assigned, it STOPs with “error
in expression” and reports the line number.  The programmer may well have made 
some spelling mistake, and can immediately make a correction.  QDOS is doing 
exactly what the programmer wants.

Can SMSQ/E be upgraded to follow suit?  

Currently, in the above-mentioned case, SMSQ/E will use a zero value and will 
carry on blindly with no error reported.  The assumption is made that any new 
variable will have a default value of zero.  This behaviour does not take 
account of the fact that people are human and will sometimes make spelling 
mistakes.  The unintentional mistake gets buried and lost in the middle of the 
code.  I can spend a great deal of time and effort composing a program; I can 
type it all in, and can even double check it, but I can still overlook things.  
After writing a program in SMSQ/E, I can never be certain that it is free of 
typos.  There is this constant anxiety in the mind.  Programming can be 
difficult, even without the additional workload required of having to track 
down possible spelling mistakes, when there might be none at all - one can 
never tell.  QDOS is much friendlier in this respect.  This is why I would like 
for SMSQ/E to be upgraded to act like QDOS.  If this would entail a slight loss 
of efficiency, then that would be acceptable.  For me, the most important 
aspect of programming is to be able to write code that is going to work as 
intended.  If SMSQ/E could be upgraded, then this would mean that all new 
variables would need to be initialised with values before
they are used.  This would apply to both global and local variables in 
procedure/functions.  However, this is a recognised good practice in any case.  
It is good practice because these initialisations are being documented.  We 
have to remember that others will want to look at and understand the code we 
write.  SMSQ/E would be enforcing this desirable state of affairs, as QDOS does.

Michael Bulford
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