Re: [ql-developers] Re: [ql-users] Source Code
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Peter Graf [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes Hi Wolfgang, *** Distribution of executables for free was *not* forbidden in the first official statement! This has changed and caused severe implications on the availability of non-commercial work. *** I must take the blame for that - it was always INTENDED that the binaries were not to be distributed other than through the resellers. I don't blame you for tolerating distribution of SMSQ/E executables for free in the first statement. This is what Tony Tebby would have allowed us! The public ought to know it, even if it was published unintended. Note the 'other than through the resellers' part of the sentence Peter. He is talking about upgrades as you well know. -- Roy Wood Q Branch, 20 Locks Hill Portslade. Sussex. BN41 2LB. UK Tel : +44 (0)1273 386030 Fax : +44 (0)1273 430501 (New number!) Mobile +44(0)7836 745501 Web : www.qbranch.demon.co.uk
Re: [ql-developers] Re: [ql-users] Source Code
On 19 May 2002, at 7:18, Dave Walker wrote: Timothy, When I got SMSQ/E from Jochen, I got: a) A generic SMSQ/E User Guide (38 pages) that was not machine specific b) Custom supplement pages for each hardware environment I bought (typically 6-10 pages) Same here when I got my Q60. Wolfgang - www.wlenerz.com
Re: [ql-developers] Re: [ql-users] Source Code
Wolfgang wrote: Timothy, When I got SMSQ/E from Jochen, I got: a) A generic SMSQ/E User Guide (38 pages) that was not machine specific b) Custom supplement pages for each hardware environment I bought (typically 6-10 pages) Same here when I got my Q60. And more. Peter
Re: [ql-developers] Re: [ql-users] Source Code
I guess the point I was trying to make was that the 38 page guide was no where near comprehensive enough to document a full OS. I'm sure that it assumed that the user was already familiar with QDOS. The Gold Card/TKII manual was a little more in depth, as it only covered some extensions to the OS. The original poster said something about a printed handbook for SMSQ/E and I would expect a little more than a 38 page guide that barely covers the topics. This is a little bit more revealing than the comment you originally made. I gave with each Q 40 I sold (and the US ones were mostly sent out by TF but I am sure he also sent the documentation too) all of the documentation I could lay my hands on. A few people (three) bought Q 40s with no prior knowledge of the QL or SMSQ/E I spent a bit of time with them getting them up and running both in person at my house and on the phone / Internet. There was no poster just an ad in QL Today and you received documentation on the hardware too. You do know about TK II and I do agree that the state of the SMSQ/E documentation is really just an upgrade notice but none of us have the resources to do anything else. At the end of the day we did our best and we were there to support you as we have been for all users over the years. Yes it was buggy and it still is. We all tried to get it fixed and make it better but TT was the only person available to do that. If we all stop this argument and get on with it maybe we could make it better. -- Roy Wood Q Branch, 20 Locks Hill Portslade. Sussex. BN41 2LB. UK Tel : +44 (0)1273 386030 Fax : +44 (0)1273 430501 (New number!) Mobile +44(0)7836 745501 Web : www.qbranch.demon.co.uk
Re: [ql-developers] Re: [ql-users] Source Code
On Sun, May 19, 2002 at 01:05:42AM +0100, Roy Wood wrote: Interestingly, not all legitimate commercial interests are served equally humbly here. When Peter Graf tried to acquire the right to give away (for free) SMSQ-Q40 binaries in exchange for a substantial payment to TT he was turned down (not because he offered too little money btw). This means that Peter has no means to ensure that SMSQ will be available for the Q40/Q60 in the future - and that after having invested horrendeous amounts of money into SMSQ development for functionality that isn't even implemented until today. This line of argument is spurious. SMSQ/E for the Q40/Q60 will continue to exist and Peter or you have the right to apply to become an official reseller. Your only commitment in this regard is that you offer support for the versions you sell and you pay the licence fee for the copies you sell. You can sell them at cost if you want that is up to you. I will not be selling Q40/Q60 SMSQ/E and neither will Jochen so the ball is in your court. thanks for clarifying this. Again apply to be a =n official reseller and follow the rules. Give it away for free if you want but pay TT for each one sold. It is that simple. As far as I can tell this was exactly what Peter wanted - what was the problem? Richard
Re: [ql-developers] Re: [ql-users] Source Code
As far as I can tell this was exactly what Peter wanted - what was the problem? He wanted a one off payment and exemption as far as I was told. -- Roy Wood Q Branch, 20 Locks Hill Portslade. Sussex. BN41 2LB. UK Tel : +44 (0)1273 386030 Fax : +44 (0)1273 430501 (New number!) Mobile +44(0)7836 745501 Web : www.qbranch.demon.co.uk
Re: [ql-developers] Re: [ql-users] Source Code
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Peter Graf [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes Roy Wood wrote: Distribution of executables for free was always forbidden. Not true. I refer to the official statement made in public, not to the secrets of your meeting. The fact that it was not forbidden in the beginning, was a reason why some developers considered to work under this license at all! Some developers may still have missed this change. *** Distribution of executables for free was *not* forbidden in the first official statement! This has changed and caused severe implications on the availability of non-commercial work. *** You do like to split the words don't you ? It may have been missed out of the official statement but it was discussed and agreed at the very first meeting. You knew about the meeting and were going to come but decided not to. You mislead the public here. I became sick with influenza, staying in bed all week, another person was known to be on vacation, TT was not attending, and DD Systems was not invited. Also I was not informed the Eindhoven meeting was to *decide* anything. I would never expect such a meeting without TT. Everyone was invited via the message on the Internet. We were expecting you and I was not told to you had a cold and could not come. I was told that you had decided not to come and that was what I said. The meeting was not decide anything but to get the framework set out and that is what we did. If you want to have a voice you have to make the effort. Why should TT be there? He had clearly given his rights to Wolfgang and he said that on this user group. Just by the way, my hearing is not well enough to completely follow a such a complicated negotiation in *spoken* English. If we had shouted in your ear you would not have 'listened'. Fine. Develop it. Get it accepted as an authorised version. Sell it for 10 Euros or give it away for free. Just pay TT 10 Euros for each one sold. No problem. Unfortunately the license doesn't say that. Can I have this statement, without additions that make it void, from the registrar, and guarantees it won't change in the future ??? What ? A large problem would still remain: My *person* is no guaranty to non-commercial developers. I can get sick, or whatever. Their rights should be in the *license*. If they are not, I can hardly expect them to work for Qx0 SMSQ/E. These two comments smack of paranoia. [...] All of this is yet more paranoia. All the statements I made are clearly given by the license. If you want something else than the license says, change the liscense. I will be very happy to admit that you are right, then. There are extremly strict conditions to ensure everything *you* want. Why not rights for non-commercial development as well? That is something we have been discussing. [...] We all decided [...] This and other remarks suggest repeatedly that you participate in *decisions* about the license. So it is not just the registar and TT. Is this correct? No I reply when I am asked. Have you paid *more* for SMSQ/E development than I have, so *you* have the right to participate in decisions about SMSQ/E, and I have not? You have as much right to participate in the discussions as I have and I suspect that over the eight years I have been selling SMSQ/E and QPC 2 I have contributed more to TT than you have. You are, in fact participating in discussion right now. -- Roy Wood Q Branch, 20 Locks Hill Portslade. Sussex. BN41 2LB. UK Tel : +44 (0)1273 386030 Fax : +44 (0)1273 430501 (New number!) Mobile +44(0)7836 745501 Web : www.qbranch.demon.co.uk
Re: [ql-developers] Re: [ql-users] Source Code
At 07:18 AM 5/19/2002 +0100, you wrote: Timothy, When I got SMSQ/E from Jochen, I got: a) A generic SMSQ/E User Guide (38 pages) that was not machine specific b) Custom supplement pages for each hardware environment I bought (typically 6-10 pages) I agree that the SMSQ/E Reference manual is extra - but I do not think that is what was being refrred to. Dave I guess the point I was trying to make was that the 38 page guide was no where near comprehensive enough to document a full OS. I'm sure that it assumed that the user was already familiar with QDOS. The Gold Card/TKII manual was a little more in depth, as it only covered some extensions to the OS. The original poster said something about a printed handbook for SMSQ/E and I would expect a little more than a 38 page guide that barely covers the topics. Tim
Re: [ql-developers] Re: [ql-users] Source Code
Interestingly, not all legitimate commercial interests are served equally humbly here. When Peter Graf tried to acquire the right to give away (for free) SMSQ-Q40 binaries in exchange for a substantial payment to TT he was turned down (not because he offered too little money btw). This means that Peter has no means to ensure that SMSQ will be available for the Q40/Q60 in the future - and that after having invested horrendeous amounts of money into SMSQ development for functionality that isn't even implemented until today. This line of argument is spurious. SMSQ/E for the Q40/Q60 will continue to exist and Peter or you have the right to apply to become an official reseller. Your only commitment in this regard is that you offer support for the versions you sell and you pay the licence fee for the copies you sell. You can sell them at cost if you want that is up to you. I will not be selling Q40/Q60 SMSQ/E and neither will Jochen so the ball is in your court. Does he also have a good case to actually get the features implemented? Peter might have respondend himself would you have kept the cc ql-developpers (I am adding it again). He could also have replied had he not behaved like a teenager and stormed out this group. This fragmentation is stupid and childish. Ususally I would not hold *you* responsible for this as Peter and me would do the few fixes myself, however your license does make it impossible for a few people to support SMSQ so you should see how you want to fill the holes. Your license also leaves the question of availablity for specific platforms completely unresolved, hence my concern about Q40/Q60 SMSQ availability. Is that too much asked? You can also try to convince me with a different license. Again apply to be a =n official reseller and follow the rules. Give it away for free if you want but pay TT for each one sold. It is that simple. -- Roy Wood Q Branch, 20 Locks Hill Portslade. Sussex. BN41 2LB. UK Tel : +44 (0)1273 386030 Fax : +44 (0)1273 430501 (New number!) Mobile +44(0)7836 745501 Web : www.qbranch.demon.co.uk
Re: [ql-developers] Re: [ql-users] Source Code
Timothy, When I got SMSQ/E from Jochen, I got: a) A generic SMSQ/E User Guide (38 pages) that was not machine specific b) Custom supplement pages for each hardware environment I bought (typically 6-10 pages) I agree that the SMSQ/E Reference manual is extra - but I do not think that is what was being refrred to. Dave - Original Message - From: Timothy Swenson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, May 19, 2002 4:59 AM Subject: Re: [ql-developers] Re: [ql-users] Source Code At 01:43 AM 5/19/2002 +0100, Roy Wood wrote: What rights are they ? As I have said we have no objections to you becoming an official reseller if you follow the rules. In fact we would be glad if you did because we have no wish to be involved with support for the Q40/Q60. As an official reseller you can sell SMSQ/E for whatever you want provided you pay the fee to TT, provide a printed manual, disk and support for the platforms that you sell.It really is that simple. Printed Manual When I got SMSQ/E I did not get a full printed manual. I got a hardware guide and a very short guide to SMSQ/E for the Q40 (bought mine 2 years ago). The Reference Manual was extra. If I had not know much about QDOS and SMSQ/E when I got the Q40, the manual would not have kept me from being SOL. The Gold Card manual was much more in depth than the SMSQ/E manual I got. Tim Swenson
