[ql-users] ProForma Filter
I was reading the archives and noticed that Rich Mellor was after a copy of my BlackHole device driver - the one which 'does nothing' as someone succinctly put it - and I was wondering if he (Rich) had managed to get hold of a copy of the source. Cheers, Norm. -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.7 - Release Date: 10/02/2005 ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: [ql-users] ProForma Filter
Tue, 15 Feb 2005 15:07:04 +0100,() Norman Dunbar [EMAIL PROTECTED] /wrote: I was reading the archives and noticed that Rich Mellor was after a copy of my BlackHole device driver - the one which 'does nothing' as someone succinctly put it - and I was wondering if he (Rich) had managed to get hold of a copy of the source. One thing I can say about BlackHole is that it is extremely useful for debugging or for silencing output especially with c68 compiled programs (the ones with standard output ;-) ) Actually it is my belief that it should be part of the OS (as a nul device like most OSes have) On that note, could I use it in freeQDOS? (Please?) Ffibys... ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: [ql-users] ProForma Filter
Phoebus Dokos wrote: Actually it is my belief that it should be part of the OS (as a nul device like most OSes have) Erm, what's wrong with SMSQ/E's NUL device? Marcel ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: [ql-users] ProForma Filter
Phoebus Dokos wrote: One thing I can say about BlackHole is that it is extremely useful for debugging or for silencing output especially with c68 compiled programs (the ones with standard output ;-) ) Actually it is my belief that it should be part of the OS (as a nul device like most OSes have) On that note, could I use it in freeQDOS? (Please?) Ffibys... Of course you can. Cheers, Norman. -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.7 - Release Date: 10/02/2005 ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: [ql-users] ProForma Filter
Marcel Kilgus wrote: Phoebus Dokos wrote: Actually it is my belief that it should be part of the OS (as a nul device like most OSes have) Erm, what's wrong with SMSQ/E's NUL device? Marcel ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm Maybe it doesn't have as glamorous a name as 'Black_Hole' ? Maybe it needs to have two 'L's in the name to avoid confusing all us C and Database programmers out here who use NULL all the time. :o) Cheers, Norm. -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.7 - Release Date: 10/02/2005 ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: [ql-users] Proforma Filter
Hi all, there is a new beta version of the Printer Control Program (formerly known as Proforma printe) on my website. Thanks to P. Witte's extensive testing, this is now close to release, once I implement one or two more features. Please test it let me know. Wolfgang www.scp-paulet-lenerz.com ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: [ql-users] Proforma Filter
On Sun, 12 Dec 2004 10:53:04 +0100, Wolfgang Lenerz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi all, there is a new beta version of the Printer Control Program (formerly known as Proforma printe) on my website. Thanks to P. Witte's extensive testing, this is now close to release, once I implement one or two more features. Please test it let me know. Thankyou Wolfgang for all the hard work - I am snowed under with QWord at the moment, so can't really do much for the next week or so... -- Rich Mellor RWAP Services 26 Oak Road, Shelfield, Walsall, West Midlands WS4 1RQ http://www.rwapservices.co.uk/ ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: [ql-users] Proforma Filter
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Wolfgang Lenerz [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes SNIP This is a real beta version, meaning that I hope to have most bugs out, the doc is in sync with the facilities and it *should* now work with Qdos, which doesn't have named pipes. That aspect is not testes (yet). I am sure you do not mean 'testes' although there is a connection with a named 'pipe'. . -- Roy Wood Q Branch. 20 Locks Hill, Portslade, Sussex.BN41 2LB Tel: +44 (0) 1273 386030fax: +44 (0) 1273 430501 web : www.qbranch.demon.co.uk ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
RE: Re: [ql-users] Proforma Filter
On 3 Dec 2004 at 21:58, Duncan Neithercut wrote: the GUI - I find that it does not list all printer drivers correctly - loses first the one so passes the driver ID one position out of step to the filter. I only have 6 installed only the Epson stylus ones. Ooops, yes, done. Also the radio button Yes for print on the screen does not clear when switched off No. Both remain selected so its difficult to know what is selected. Done Ok, there is a new version on my website. This is a real beta version, meaning that I hope to have most bugs out, the doc is in sync with the facilities and it *should* now work with Qdos, which doesn't have named pipes. That aspect is not testes (yet). I'd be greatful if somebody could test it on a Qdos machine... The GUI is renamed PCP, there are many bugfixes. To be done: ** Freeze the interface between the PCP and the filters. (this depends on the feature y'all want - up to now I've seen - colour to be printed it + choose the font (this latter will NOT be implemented at first, until somebody tells me of another fontpack i.e. normal + bold +italic+ bold italic). ** Implement this interface in the PCP and the filter supplied. RTM! as usual at: www.scp-paulet-lenerz.com/14mljkl24/wolf/download/ Wolfgang www.scp-paulet-lenerz.com ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: [ql-users] Proforma Filter, monospace font
Phoebus Dokos wrote: Thu, 02 Dec 2004 21:30:41 +0100,() Wolfgang Lenerz [EMAIL PROTECTED] /wrote: Phoebus () - I want to see who can decode this one :-) Both and are OK on Thunderbird e-mail, but why is Phoibos all in caps - is his name engraved in stone? AND why is Thu ? Looks suspiciously like a Nordic god rather than a Greek god. Tony ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: [ql-users] Proforma Filter, monospace font
Fri, 03 Dec 2004 11:27:38 +0100,() Tony Tebby [EMAIL PROTECTED] /wrote: Phoebus Dokos wrote: Thu, 02 Dec 2004 21:30:41 +0100,() Wolfgang Lenerz [EMAIL PROTECTED] /wrote: Phoebus () - I want to see who can decode this one :-) Both and are OK on Thunderbird e-mail, but why is Phoibos all in caps - is his name engraved in stone? AND why is Thu ? The all caps was at the spur of the moment... it should normally come in as ... I don't push it else I would put Unicode and I would write it in polytonic (multi-accented kinda like French) and that would be even more interesting... In reality up to the Alexandrian (or Hellenestic Era) Greek was written all caps... the lowercase and accent/stress marks were introduced so that barbarians (not my term) could read and write it -That was keeping in line with the saying: Greek is the one participating in Greek education- so there you have it... The Thu is not translated actually :-) Days in Greek are feminine and that's the translation for On (in its feminine form of course) ' of course means wrote... The names of days are generated by Windows and as such I cannot do much as my wife needs to use it as well :-D Looks suspiciously like a Nordic god rather than a Greek god. Neither ;-) hehe maybe Pan the Satyre ;-) (Dust up your Greek mythologies people ;-) Tony ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm -- Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
RE: Re: [ql-users] Proforma Filter
Hi, the GUI - I find that it does not list all printer drivers correctly - loses first the one so passes the driver ID one position out of step to the filter. I only have 6 installed only the Epson stylus ones. Also the radio button Yes for print on the screen does not clear when switched off No. Both remain selected so its difficult to know what is selected. Duncan Neithercut -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Wolfgang Lenerz Sent: 01 December 2004 19:29 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Re: [ql-users] Proforma Filter Hi all, work on the Proforma printing suite continues. There is a new version on my website. This now contains the PFF device which, hopefully, is close to completion, pending bug fixes of the bugs you will find... Anyway, it will now call up a (configurable) file or (configurable) executable thing to be executed as soon as a channel is opened to it. It works here, but probably not at your place. Please give it a try, though. Please also Read The revamped Manual. As usual at: www.scp-paulet-lenerz.com/14mljkl24/wolf/download/ Now it's more the question of what else will be implemented in the GUI (the printer option prog). For the time being, you can choose your Proforma printer, plus the font size. More options I can think of would be: - where to print to (par, ser etc...) - landscape printing? (i.e. rotate by 90 degrees - left upper margins - font size - font to be used (doesn't make that much sense, it should probably be a monspaced font, there is only one, courrier). What else can you think of? Wolfgang www.scp-paulet-lenerz.com ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
RE: Re: [ql-users] Proforma Filter
On 3 Dec 2004 at 21:58, Duncan Neithercut wrote: Hi, the GUI - I find that it does not list all printer drivers correctly - loses first the one so passes the driver ID one position out of step to the filter. I only have 6 installed only the Epson stylus ones. Also the radio button Yes for print on the screen does not clear when switched off No. Both remain selected so its difficult to know what is selected. Duncan Neithercut Please try the new version on the website... Wolfgang www.scp-paulet-lenerz.com ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: Re: [ql-users] Proforma Filter
On Fri, 3 Dec 2004 21:58:46 -, Duncan Neithercut [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, the GUI - I find that it does not list all printer drivers correctly - loses first the one so passes the driver ID one position out of step to the filter. I only have 6 installed only the Epson stylus ones. Also the radio button Yes for print on the screen does not clear when switched off No. Both remain selected so its difficult to know what is selected. Yes, you are quite right about the list of printer drivers - the Yes and No has been corrected in the latest version - download it again from http://www.scp-paulet-lenerz.com/14mljkl24/wolf/download/. -- Rich Mellor RWAP Services 26 Oak Road, Shelfield, Walsall, West Midlands WS4 1RQ http://www.rwapservices.co.uk/ ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: Re: [ql-users] Proforma Filter, monospace font
Is there an easy way of finding out what characters a font supports?? You could try 'ProWesS Fonts Utilities'. Or for those using only Proforma, not ProWesS, the older SHOWPFF or whatever the font viewing utility was called (supplied with pre-ProWesS Line Designs) Dilwyn Jones ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: [ql-users] Proforma Filter, monospace font
On 1 Dec 2004 at 23:22, Joachim Van der Auwera wrote: Wolfgang Lenerz wrote: - font to be used (doesn't make that much sense, it should probably be a monspaced font, there is only one, courrier). I distincly remember spending a lot of time manually creating a simple font, I think it was either called complete or builtin. Then intention was to include all allowed characters in that one. Don't think it ever got that far, but I do think it was a monospaced font. Complete, yes. However, what one wants probably isn't just a font but four fonts (normal, bold, italic, bold+italic) which are grouped into a fontpack. (else how do you produce , e.g., bold letters?) IIRC, the builtin cimplete font is only normal, isn't it? Hence the courier (which exists as four fonts) Wolfgang www.scp-paulet-lenerz.com ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: [ql-users] Proforma Filter, monospace font
Thu, 02 Dec 2004 21:30:41 +0100,() Wolfgang Lenerz [EMAIL PROTECTED] /wrote: On 1 Dec 2004 at 23:22, Joachim Van der Auwera wrote: Wolfgang Lenerz wrote: - font to be used (doesn't make that much sense, it should probably be a monspaced font, there is only one, courrier). I distincly remember spending a lot of time manually creating a simple font, I think it was either called complete or builtin. Then intention was to include all allowed characters in that one. Don't think it ever got that far, but I do think it was a monospaced font. Complete, yes. However, what one wants probably isn't just a font but four fonts (normal, bold, italic, bold+italic) which are grouped into a fontpack. (else how do you produce , e.g., bold letters?) IIRC, the builtin cimplete font is only normal, isn't it? Hence the courier (which exists as four fonts) I think I have adapted a proper monospace font (IIRC it wasn't Courier -which I BTW despise with a passion- but a full (Unicode) version of Bitrstream Monospace 821) using Joachim's modified PFB2PFF converter... which I am not sure I have anymore... However time permitting I could either dig it out or whip up another one for inclusion :-) (The problem with PFB2PFF remains though... I will have to see if I have the newest version that can deal with Unicode PFBs or the older one that I originally bought) Phoebus () - I want to see who can decode this one :-) ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: [ql-users] Proforma Filter
Hi all, work on the Proforma printing suite continues. There is a new version on my website. This now contains the PFF device which, hopefully, is close to completion, pending bug fixes of the bugs you will find... Anyway, it will now call up a (configurable) file or (configurable) executable thing to be executed as soon as a channel is opened to it. It works here, but probably not at your place. Please give it a try, though. Please also Read The revamped Manual. As usual at: www.scp-paulet-lenerz.com/14mljkl24/wolf/download/ Now it's more the question of what else will be implemented in the GUI (the printer option prog). For the time being, you can choose your Proforma printer, plus the font size. More options I can think of would be: - where to print to (par, ser etc...) - landscape printing? (i.e. rotate by 90 degrees - left upper margins - font size - font to be used (doesn't make that much sense, it should probably be a monspaced font, there is only one, courrier). What else can you think of? Wolfgang www.scp-paulet-lenerz.com ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: Re: [ql-users] Proforma Filter
Hi all, work on the Proforma printing suite continues. There is a new version on my website. This now contains the PFF device which, hopefully, is close to completion, pending bug fixes of the bugs you will find... Anyway, it will now call up a (configurable) file or (configurable) executable thing to be executed as soon as a channel is opened to it. It works here, but probably not at your place. Please give it a try, though. Please also Read The revamped Manual. As usual at: www.scp-paulet-lenerz.com/14mljkl24/wolf/download/ Now it's more the question of what else will be implemented in the GUI (the printer option prog). For the time being, you can choose your Proforma printer, plus the font size. More options I can think of would be: - where to print to (par, ser etc...) - landscape printing? (i.e. rotate by 90 degrees - left upper margins - font size - font to be used (doesn't make that much sense, it should probably be a monspaced font, there is only one, courrier). What else can you think of? Wolfgang www.scp-paulet-lenerz.com ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: [ql-users] Proforma Filter
- font to be used (doesn't make that much sense, it should probably be a monspaced font, there is only one, courrier). What else can you think of? Wolfgang It might make sense if someone chooses to convert another monospaced font at some point. Well done for all the work you've put into this. My SER/PAR to PFF program is up and running, although still waiting for a front end. Will post that as soon as I can (held up by my experiences with this PC recently) -- Dilwyn Jones ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: [ql-users] Proforma Filter
On Wed, 1 Dec 2004 20:36:50 -, Dilwyn Jones [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: cut It might make sense if someone chooses to convert another monospaced font at some point. Yes possibly... Might also want to provide an option in the GUI to select the output colour !! Well done for all the work you've put into this. My SER/PAR to PFF program is up and running, although still waiting for a front end. Will post that as soon as I can (held up by my experiences with this PC recently) Great :-) -- Rich Mellor RWAP Services 26 Oak Road, Shelfield, Walsall, West Midlands WS4 1RQ http://www.rwapservices.co.uk/ ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: [ql-users] Proforma Filter, monospace font
Wolfgang Lenerz wrote: - font to be used (doesn't make that much sense, it should probably be a monspaced font, there is only one, courrier). I distincly remember spending a lot of time manually creating a simple font, I think it was either called complete or builtin. Then intention was to include all allowed characters in that one. Don't think it ever got that far, but I do think it was a monospaced font. Joachim ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: [ql-users] Proforma Filter, monospace font
On Wed, 01 Dec 2004 23:22:16 +0100, Joachim Van der Auwera [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Wolfgang Lenerz wrote: - font to be used (doesn't make that much sense, it should probably be a monspaced font, there is only one, courrier). I distincly remember spending a lot of time manually creating a simple font, I think it was either called complete or builtin. Then intention was to include all allowed characters in that one. Don't think it ever got that far, but I do think it was a monospaced font. Is there an easy way of finding out what characters a font supports?? -- Rich Mellor RWAP Services 26 Oak Road, Shelfield, Walsall, West Midlands WS4 1RQ http://www.rwapservices.co.uk/ ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: [ql-users] Proforma Filter, monospace font
Rich Mellor wrote: On Wed, 01 Dec 2004 23:22:16 +0100, Joachim Van der Auwera [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Wolfgang Lenerz wrote: - font to be used (doesn't make that much sense, it should probably be a monspaced font, there is only one, courrier). I distincly remember spending a lot of time manually creating a simple font, I think it was either called complete or builtin. Then intention was to include all allowed characters in that one. Don't think it ever got that far, but I do think it was a monospaced font. Is there an easy way of finding out what characters a font supports?? You could try 'ProWesS Fonts Utilities'. François Van Emelen ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: Re: [ql-users] Proforma Filter
Hmm - just thought - if you allow for C strings, you need to ensure that the character BEFORE the SER or PAR is not another letter, eg we could replace a prompt: Print to (SER), but not You are a loser (both would end with byte 0. And yes, Joachim is correct - you do also need to be able to handle the byte length format. Fairly easy to program - check if the word length6 (?) if not, is the byte length6. OK. Dilwyn Jones ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: [ql-users] Proforma Filter
Per Witte wrote: Please keep talking! :-) Sadly, neither of the above will work as described in /this/ case as, as someone already pointed out, the trap stores the calling job's PC, and the matching rte scribbles over any PC value set in the JCB (blithly supported by the scheduler). I think that was me (in the first of the trilogy). Or have I missed a contribution from someone else? The second part of my algorithm had an additional flaw, as you pointed out. It is not impossible to know where the calling job's PC is on the SSP, but this is undocumented and may differ between OSes. Yes, that was the thrust of episode 2 - find the PC on the supervisor stack and do the fiddle there rather than in the JCB. I later realised that although this might work for nested system calls etc. it would fail if the calling job had deliberately entered supervisor mode via TRAP#0 since no evidence is left on the stack... Well, I stipulated from the start that I didnt want to have to THINK, and obviously, Ive stuck to that ;) That was the first measurement. Glad nobody cut yet! :-) As usual, Wolfgang seems to have come up with a sensible solution to the (original) problem. John ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: Re: [ql-users] Proforma Filter
Do all programs have a word length counter before the device name or do some have a byte length one? And any programs known to use a device name delimited by LF or whatever rather than the internal format with length word/byte? Good question - normally a word length. What about inside a C program (remembering that C expects strings to end with a 0 byte and not have a word length. ?? C does not use a length, in C the string is null terminated (so a null byte after the string, no easy way to figure out what the beginning of the string is. What about tokenized basic, or compiled basic? In SBasic (in some places at least), string length is indicated with a byte. Thanks, Joachim, I shall gather various type sof programs to throw at this and find out by trial and error how it works. Do you think the program should have a batch conversion mode as well, or do you think it's better doing just one program conversion at a time? Certainly easier to write to handle one named program at a time. Dilwyn Jones ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: [ql-users] Proforma Filter
On 27 Nov 2004 at 19:12, P Witte wrote: At least the latter is not impossible. Whats the workaround? The Open call exits via the scheduler. Not the way I do it - I just call the open routines of the different device drivers directly Anyway, didn't the ancient PRT device back then already solve most problems discussed here. Not these specific problems, but it would be worth looking into for ideas. (...) Wolfgang www.scp-paulet-lenerz.com ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: [ql-users] Proforma Filter
I think that Wolfgang has put together an excellent proposal here which is obviously very well thought out in the light of previous discussions. Having given this problem some considerable thought myself, I do think that Wolfgang's solution has some definite positive aspects, not least of which is the ability for us to program a GUI (Printer Control Program) in something easier than machine code PLUS no-one has to learn how to program in THINGs. The idea of a small background job initiated when the PFF device is loaded sounds ideal, provided that it can be configured with the location of the Printer Control Program which it needs to launch. I would also rather go for having this Printer Control Program start with a priority of zero, which can then be set to 1 (or higher) by the PFF device when it is asked to open a channel. The job's priority can be reset to 0 once it has created the necessary link between the PFF device and the Filter Program. However, I do perceive a problem here. I still favour the ability of the user being able to use either a PIPE or a file as the temporary storage for the output from the PFF device. This could of course be configurable in the same configuration block that contains the location of the Printer Control Program. However, we return to the main stumbling block. The Printer Control Program needs to maintain a set of channels open to temporary storage areas - how does the Printer Control Program pass the ID of the channel back to the PFF Device so that the PFF device knows where to output its data?? The GUI === The idea of this being launched as and when needed from disk sounds ideal. However, the reasons why it was proposed that some of this function be included within the Printer Control Program (running as a THING) are as follows: 1) If stored on floppy disk, we have to remember that the user may not have the correct disk in the drive. OK we can overcome this by prompting the user to insert this in the disk if required - however, what if they are using XChange program in one disk drive, their documents in another disk drive and then need a third disk containing the GUI and filter programs. 2) The various filter programs written for use with the system could register themselves with the THING, so that the user can be offered a list of the various output options available (it also means we do not have to re-write the GUI each time a new filter is written). The solution to this would be (presumably) for each filter to be stored in a specific directory - the GUI program could then look at the list of filters in that directory and check some sort of header (either within the filter or in a separate file for each filter), to see what solutions are available. A header would be preferable to using the actual name of the Filter. 3) How do we report back to the PFF device that printing has failed?? PFF options === Just a small comment here - the PFF device was not designed to allow the user (or program) to specify the type of output to produce. It is mainly to specify the type of output produced by the program - PFFe would be Epson ESC/P2 codes PFFn would be Native Proforma Output PFFp would be Postscript Output PFFg would be QL Graphics Dump Output Obviously these all require different filters - PFFn would be a simple filter to send the output directly to Proforma and PFFp would be one to send it directly to Ghostscript. The idea is not to allow a long device name, but rather one that is at most 5 characters, the same as allowed for SER devices. A letter is better than using the number to identify the type of output because it makes it a lot easier to patch old programs - rather than having to convert various SER1e settings to PFF3 etc It was always envisaged that the user would then be offered the choice of output options based on the known filters which could handle this intermediate protocol - perhaps you have misunderstood this Wolfgang (or just forgotten in the sea of emails). COMMUNICATION = Perhaps we still need a THING - possibly just a small one which can be used to contain various data to allow each element of the program to communicate with each other? Finally I am pleased that this has gnerated so much interest - I realise it may be beyond many of the subscribers to this list, and possibly provided too many emails for them to digest - please bear with us - at least the list is showing a lot of activity for now rather than simply moaning and arguing -- Rich Mellor RWAP Services 26 Oak Road, Shelfield, Walsall, West Midlands WS4 1RQ http://www.rwapservices.co.uk/ ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
RE: [ql-users] Proforma Filter
Hi Rich, Whats wrong with a back ground job started at boot with low priority as the intermediate. It could : look for a configuration file and read that in then know to ; clear the pipe anytime something is put into it by PFF device save the contents of the pipe to a designated location on disk - ram rom win flp if so configured call the appropriate filter eg Quill files configured to be treated as ASCII as no printer driver loaded for this version of Quill Text 87 files treated as ESCP2 and a proportional font used for printing QD files have FF added by the filter and so on upto the user Or call the GUI before exec ing a filter if thats the configuration set up. GUI could be used to change configuration at run time and inform the background task by printing the new config file to the PFF device with a header that tells it to read the new configuration rather than call a filter etc Duncan Neithercut -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Rich Mellor Sent: 28 November 2004 12:57 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [ql-users] Proforma Filter I think that Wolfgang has put together an excellent proposal here which is obviously very well thought out in the light of previous discussions. Having given this problem some considerable thought myself, I do think that Wolfgang's solution has some definite positive aspects, not least of which is the ability for us to program a GUI (Printer Control Program) in something easier than machine code PLUS no-one has to learn how to program in THINGs. The idea of a small background job initiated when the PFF device is loaded sounds ideal, provided that it can be configured with the location of the Printer Control Program which it needs to launch. I would also rather go for having this Printer Control Program start with a priority of zero, which can then be set to 1 (or higher) by the PFF device when it is asked to open a channel. The job's priority can be reset to 0 once it has created the necessary link between the PFF device and the Filter Program. However, I do perceive a problem here. I still favour the ability of the user being able to use either a PIPE or a file as the temporary storage for the output from the PFF device. This could of course be configurable in the same configuration block that contains the location of the Printer Control Program. However, we return to the main stumbling block. The Printer Control Program needs to maintain a set of channels open to temporary storage areas - how does the Printer Control Program pass the ID of the channel back to the PFF Device so that the PFF device knows where to output its data?? The GUI === The idea of this being launched as and when needed from disk sounds ideal. However, the reasons why it was proposed that some of this function be included within the Printer Control Program (running as a THING) are as follows: 1) If stored on floppy disk, we have to remember that the user may not have the correct disk in the drive. OK we can overcome this by prompting the user to insert this in the disk if required - however, what if they are using XChange program in one disk drive, their documents in another disk drive and then need a third disk containing the GUI and filter programs. 2) The various filter programs written for use with the system could register themselves with the THING, so that the user can be offered a list of the various output options available (it also means we do not have to re-write the GUI each time a new filter is written). The solution to this would be (presumably) for each filter to be stored in a specific directory - the GUI program could then look at the list of filters in that directory and check some sort of header (either within the filter or in a separate file for each filter), to see what solutions are available. A header would be preferable to using the actual name of the Filter. 3) How do we report back to the PFF device that printing has failed?? PFF options === Just a small comment here - the PFF device was not designed to allow the user (or program) to specify the type of output to produce. It is mainly to specify the type of output produced by the program - PFFe would be Epson ESC/P2 codes PFFn would be Native Proforma Output PFFp would be Postscript Output PFFg would be QL Graphics Dump Output Obviously these all require different filters - PFFn would be a simple filter to send the output directly to Proforma and PFFp would be one to send it directly to Ghostscript. The idea is not to allow a long device name, but rather one that is at most 5 characters, the same as allowed for SER devices. A letter is better than using the number to identify the type of output because
Re: [ql-users] Proforma Filter
Wolfgang Lenerz wrote: Anyway, let me all know what you think of the above scheme, knowing that I could continue developemnt on the PF GUI and the PFF to implement all of what I have mentioned above. Wow, Wolfgang, great work. I have to admit that your scheme sounds much more sensible than the stuff I proposed. It sounds very sensible and (major major advantage) quite easy to implement and solves all the problems I tried to consider. Even better, as you seem to already have sone most of the work, it even exists. Hear hear for Wolfgang ! Well done. Where does PROforma print? == However - how does PROforma know WHERE to print? Mine just worked straight out of the box prnting to PAR. The only thing I have found is that this seems to be hard coded in the device drivers (pfd). Is this correct? It is indeed configured in the device drivers. There is a PFconfig program which is part of ProWesS (in the utilities button). This allows you to configure the printer drivers, and part of that allows setting the default printer device. In a standard ProWesS configuration, these configurations are stored in the win1_pws_mine_PROforma_cfg file. There is a section for each printer driver which contains (amongst other things) the default driver setting. When actually printing, you can still pass a printer device. IIRC when nothing is passed the default is used. Joachim ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: [ql-users] Proforma Filter
Joachim Van der Auwera writes: Please remember, PROforma exists, has existed for almost ten years now I installed ProWesS some years ago, but never really used it very often, because what I always liked about the QL was its simplicity and efficiency. This is in no way a critism of ProWesS, which is an absolute master piece! It just never suited me. The machines we had at the time were also not ideal, being too slow and having a limited resolution. In connection with the printer project, I wanted to run Proforma, but couldnt get it to work, so I tried loading it together with the ProWesS installation I did some years ago, which I know was working. I couldnt get it to work either. So I downloaded the latest files from your website (progs.be) and started all over again. No problem installing everything from flp1_ and modifying my boot file accordingly - but no joy. It still didnt work. After mucking about for too many hours, I wiped out the installation and started again. To speed things up I cloned the floppy to a ramdisk, altered the PWSDIR$ variable and ran the boot program: The machine hangs during the loader startup, just after installing DATAdesign (ie, that is the last message on the display) - more or less the same problem I was having with the installation all along. Ie, it appears I can only run it from a floppy disk. Any suggestions? Per ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: Re: [ql-users] Proforma Filter
Depends - someone might at some stage develop a program which can output both text and graphics.. I think there was an old utility which already could do this from a Quill DOC file - am thinking back to CGH Services days (late 80s) Surely it would make more sense to send everything as graphics, then? Wolfgang The way my NLQL program was going to work from what I remember all those years ago was that it would output a line of text, CR back to the start of the line, calculate how much graphics would fit in that line and print those over the line of text, in other words mixed text and graphics. In other words, rather than rasterise the text, text was output as text and graphics superimposed. It meant I had a very long winded print process to say the least. The one hiccup was 9-pin dot matrix printers which printed NLQ by 2 slightly vertically offset passes to reduce their dottiness so the 9-pin printer driving was difficult to say the least. Looking back, it seems so complex I'm amazed I took it as far as I did before I stopped writing it! -- Dilwyn Jones ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: Re: [ql-users] Proforma Filter
Well, there is a program called NLQ in Quanta library which IIRC takes plain text and prints it as bit image graphics using NLQ fonts. Must go and have a look to see how that works. Dilwyn Jones - Original Message - From: Rich Mellor [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, November 27, 2004 4:17 PM Subject: Re: Re: [ql-users] Proforma Filter cut Depends - someone might at some stage develop a program which can output both text and graphics.. I think there was an old utility which already could do this from a Quill DOC file - am thinking back to CGH Services days (late 80s) Surely it would make more sense to send everything as graphics, then? In that case it would, but then you need a rendering program like Proforma to do the conversion from text to graphics !! -- Rich Mellor RWAP Services 26 Oak Road, Shelfield, Walsall, West Midlands WS4 1RQ http://www.rwapservices.co.uk/ ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
RE: [ql-users] Proforma Filter
Duncan - what has happened to your formatting?? Sorry I have been playing with the stettings in OE and thought I had improved them - obviously not!! -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Rich Mellor Sent: 28 November 2004 17:06 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [ql-users] Proforma Filter On Sun, 28 Nov 2004 14:08:14 -, Duncan Neithercut [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Rich, Whats wrong with a back ground job started at boot with low priority as the intermediate. Didn't say there was anything wrong with this - it sounded quite a good idea. Its the communications which are a problem... It could : look for a configuration file and read that in then know to clear the pipe anytime something is put into it by PFF device save the contents of the pipe to a designated location on disk - ram rom win flp if so configured call the appropriate filter eg Quill files configured to be treated as ASCII as no printer driver loaded for this version of Quill. Text 87 files treated as ESCP2 and a proportional font used for printing. QD files have FF added by the filter and so on upto the user Or call the GUI before exec ing a filter if thats the configuration set up. Hmm I guess this could be an answer - the pipe from the PFF device could be kept relatively small and would soon be emptied as the Printer Control Program would soon open a channel to the temporary storage area and copy the information from the pipe to there... Good idea unless anyone else sees a problem here GUI could be used to change configuration at run time and inform the background task by printing the new config file to the PFF device with a header that tells it to read the new configuration rather than call a filter etc Yes - that could be an idea - the header to tell it to read the new configuration data MUST containt non-printable codes however (otherwise you might get this special header inside a document - eg. the manual !!) Duncan - what has happened to your formatting?? Also, please don't quote the whole of an email - just the relevent parts as it makes it awkward to read. Duncan Neithercut -- Rich Mellor RWAP Services 26 Oak Road, Shelfield, Walsall, West Midlands WS4 1RQ http://www.rwapservices.co.uk/ ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
RE: [ql-users] Proforma Filter
At 19:49 28/11/2004 +, you wrote: Duncan - what has happened to your formatting?? Also, please don't quote the whole of an email - just the relevent parts as it makes it awkward to read. For some reason your quoted text is coming thru unmarked - really hard to tell what is new, or in this last from whom it comes. Last signature being Rich. ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: [ql-users] Proforma Filter
Dilwyn Jones wrote: The Filter is in effect a partial printer emulator. What you print from Quill, S*Basic, or Easel, etc, via a device (Ser, Par, etc) with or without printer drivers (printer_dat, gprt_dat) is what the Filter responds to. But instead of converting the incoming data into ink on paper, it converts the data stream into an intermediate format which is processed by other tasks This is what I mean with OE cannot produce readable output, no matter how you configure it. It is the only email program daft enough to wrap quoted text. Having seen reference to named pipes in all this, does that mean this project will be restricted to SMSQ/E users only? Even so, might be a good incentive to finally do the switch, wouldn't it? One question: are there any Proforma versions handling GD2 colours, i.e. any screen dumps for 256 colour and 16-bit colour graphics? Joachim did the Q40 and I adapted it for QPC/QXL driver. There is no Aurora driver. I've looked into it but soon gave up. Do all programs have a word length counter before the device name or do some have a byte length one? And any programs known to use a device name delimited by LF or whatever rather than the internal format with length word/byte? Remember, the string is supposed to be a device name string that can be recognised by SMS. And SMS needs 2 bytes (1 word) length counter and no LF, so there you are. The program could of course do a runtime conversion into a buffer, but I think this is pretty unlikely. Marcel ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: [ql-users] Proforma Filter
Wolfgang Lenerz wrote: The FILTER === Nice work there. Much more reasonable than most things that have been floating around lately. Marcel has pointed out on this list that the old PRTBUF device would be suitable, however I feel this is not the case since that can only send output to ser or par IIRC (?). And it can't start the job we'll come to later on. I admit I've never used it (and I have neither the sources nor the binary of it, only a library), but as a spooler driver, didn't it have to start a job at some point? This however was felt to be too complicated for the poor end user who, some think, cannot be counted upon to remember to do this. Even though I'd have a tendancy to think that such an end user should be shot rather then receive an award for his behaviour, lol, that made my day, thanks. Marcel ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: [ql-users] Proforma Filter
P Witte wrote: In connection with the printer project, I wanted to run Proforma, but couldnt get it to work, Best way is either install ProWesS (make a copy of your boot and let the program rip), or else you could simply have a look at the boot file on the disk. It should IIRC be quite well documented. Just cut off all the ProWesS loading stuff. Basically, once PROforma has been loaded, everything else after that can be removed. However, some of the extensions loaded before executing PROforma are required (hot_rext, syslib etc). Joachim ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: [ql-users] Proforma Filter
On Sun, 28 Nov 2004 21:01:26 -, Dilwyn Jones [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: cut The filter only needs to respond to two different types of output: ESC/P2 (for example, as this was the most commonly available and emulated printer in the QL's heyday) and, as a concession to Linedesign users, output that has already been formatted by Proforma and doesnt need any further processing, ie it should go unFiltered straight through to Proforma. Great, this is exactly how I saw it going as I watched the correspondence develop. I see no reason for building in obsolesence - why should it not be able to support PCL output as well from one of Dilwyn's programs if someone wants to write a filter which would convert that to Proforma or Postscript?? It seems as though this is arguing over nothing really - it is not exactly difficult to allow filters which will support a different intermediate protocol. Anyone is able to write the filters so it is up to the users and programmers to decide which intermediate protocols they want to support - the program which we are discussing on the list is simply an interface so why put restrictions on it. cut Whatever printer is attached, in theory Proforma should be able to rasterise with a suitable driver. With these difficult printers data has to be in a rasterised format even if we don't know yet what format that is. There are two choices, Pistscript or Proforma. I guess if a driver was written Proforma might be able to output Postscript? Yes Dilwyn, but Joachim says this would not be very easy. There is already a simple Epson to Postscript convertor which should be used as a starting point methinks. AFAIK Proforma is the only rastering system available to us, so it's use that, Postscript or nothing. Yes... Having seen reference to named pipes in all this, does that mean this project will be restricted to SMSQ/E users only? Although I think there is a named pipe driver for QDOS somewhere IIRC. There are QDOS named pipes (by Hans Luub??) though they are not quite compatible with the SMSQ/e ones from memory. You've got a copy of them with the SBASIC/SuperBASIC Reference Manual toolkits !! We should only strictly need a pipe between the PFF device and the Print Control Program (GUI), since the GUI can be configured to use a temporary file or a pipe to communicate with filters. As the PFF device will start up the GUI, there is actually no need for a named pipe - a normal one could presumably be used? cut Thanks to those who contributed ideas for the SER/PAR to PFF converter. I had a play with looking at the string length bytes before the found string and it works, although it slows it down slightly of course. Hope you have remembered to allow for both upper and lower case !! Next job, put a nice front end on it. Do you think it'll need a 'query each replace' option for when 'auto-replace' fails or for those who don't trust it to work correctly? Hmm - probably you do need to offer this and show say the 10 bytes either side of the string... Do all programs have a word length counter before the device name or do some have a byte length one? And any programs known to use a device name delimited by LF or whatever rather than the internal format with length word/byte? Good question - normally a word length. What about inside a C program (remembering that C expects strings to end with a 0 byte and not have a word length. ?? -- Rich Mellor RWAP Services 26 Oak Road, Shelfield, Walsall, West Midlands WS4 1RQ http://www.rwapservices.co.uk/ ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: [ql-users] Proforma Filter
Rich Mellor wrote: On Sun, 28 Nov 2004 21:01:26 -, Dilwyn Jones [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Do all programs have a word length counter before the device name or do some have a byte length one? And any programs known to use a device name delimited by LF or whatever rather than the internal format with length word/byte? Good question - normally a word length. What about inside a C program (remembering that C expects strings to end with a 0 byte and not have a word length. ?? C does not use a length, in C the string is null terminated (so a null byte after the string, no easy way to figure out what the beginning of the string is. What about tokenized basic, or compiled basic? In SBasic (in some places at least), string length is indicated with a byte. Joachim ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: [ql-users] Proforma Filter
John Hall writes: John Hall wrote: John Hall wrote: I think you'll find that the JCB is only updated when a task switch occurs... When a TRAP#n is executed, the PC and SP are saved on the supervisor stack, hence WL's earlier comment... Oops! PC and SR, of course :-) In supervisor mode, the job's SP is in the USP... Now I can forsee there might be a problem if the calling job is in SV mode when it makes the Open call, as it would first have to exit SV mode before it could set up jobs, open channels and things, but it must sooner or later exit that mode, and the execution will procede as described. This is wrong, for the above reason. Correction. This would work, so long as the job's PC could be found on the supervisor stack by the driver code... ...which, of course, it couldn't if the job had entered supervisor mode via TRAP#0 :-( (Time to stop talking to myself and have a beer, I think!) Please keep talking! Sadly, neither of the above will work as described in /this/ case as, as someone already pointed out, the trap stores the calling job's PC, and the matching rte scribbles over any PC value set in the JCB (blithly supported by the scheduler). The second part of my algorithm had an additional flaw, as you pointed out. It is not impossible to know where the calling job's PC is on the SSP, but this is undocumented and may differ between OSes. Well, I stipulated from the start that I didnt want to have to THINK, and obviously, Ive stuck to that ;) That was the first measurement. Glad nobody cut yet! To re-discover the point about the above matter it is worth going back to first principles: The idea is that a device is used, to hide the complexity for the user and to allow transparent backward comatibility. By opening the device for output we want to - seamlessly - send data ( text and markup) down it until it comes out the other end via the printer, or in a file, or even on screen. There are programs (Proforma and Ghostscript, for example) that, with the aid of drivers, specific to a given terminal device, are able to output data - pre-formatted in a certain way - to that device. The problem I was trying to solve relates to the fact that drivers cant start jobs or open channels, so some external agent is required. Since that agent must be active, ie it is not just utility code and/or data, a job seems to be indicated (rather than a Thing, unless it were an executable Thing). This job must complete the connection between the application and the rastering program, because the driver cannot do so itself, as it involves opening other channels. The driver can also not start any jobs itself. This agent is the printer utility - it could be called PRTSRV - which has to do the following: Start up the rastering program and connect it to the other end of the device, or Spool the converted data coming from the application via PFF first and then start up the rastering program connected to the file. (However, the rastering program may have a spooling facility itself, making this step unnecessay) Probably a function to abort the current print run should go here too. The rest is done by the printer device driver (PFF), application and rastering program We could have a pre-running job that would snoop on the printer device and activate when it detected the device was open, but this wastes clock cycles. Since the printer device driver knows when it is being openened, it seems sensible that it would somehow activate the job itself when necessary, which is what the above suggestion was all about. Another way this might be achieved is by pre-initialising PRTSRV but leaving it suspended until required. It could be activated by the driver as part of the Open call like this: The normal way of releasing a suspended job is to use the trap sms.usjb (d0 = $9) but this is not atomic, and may therefore not be called within the driver. However, all this trap appears to do is: shd_usjb bsr.s shd_ckjx ; check the job exists bsr.s shd_relf ; release flag clr.w jcb_wait(a0) ; un-suspend bra.s shd_done shd_relf move.l jcb_rflg(a0),d0 ; get flag address beq.s shd_rts ; ... none clr.l jcb_rflg(a0) ; (and clear address) exg d0,a1 clr.b (a1) ; clear flag move.l d0,a1 shd_rts rts before exiting via the scheduler. Thus the printer device driver could perform this action before exiting (without involving the scheduler) and the job should be activated shortly after the Open call returns. No doubt, while weve been talking all this over, some busy beavers will have gone and written the whole thing themselves, which is of course very nice, but defeats the object of collaboration. Apologies for the length of this mail! Per
Re: [ql-users] Proforma Filter
P Witte wrote: The problem I was trying to solve relates to the fact that drivers cant start jobs or open channels, At least the latter is not impossible. Anyway, didn't the ancient PRT device back then already solve most problems discussed here. Marcel ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: [ql-users] Proforma Filter
On Sat, 27 Nov 2004 13:06:10 +0100, Wolfgang Lenerz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi all, I've put the new version of the Proforma Ascii filter on my website. This now includes the PFF device. (very primitive - for the time being (?). Please RTM. As usual at: www.scp-paulet-lenerz.com/14mljkl24/wolf/download/ I'd be happy if you could try to break it and report erros back to me. Thankyou very much Wolfgang - this is a good start - will have a good look at it later when I've got time. -- Rich Mellor RWAP Services 26 Oak Road, Shelfield, Walsall, West Midlands WS4 1RQ http://www.rwapservices.co.uk/ ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: [ql-users] Proforma Filter
On Sat, 27 Nov 2004 17:00:24 +0100, Marcel Kilgus [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: P Witte wrote: The problem I was trying to solve relates to the fact that drivers cant start jobs or open channels, At least the latter is not impossible. Anyway, didn't the ancient PRT device back then already solve most problems discussed here. Did it? I thought the PRT device was just a pseudonym device so that you could output to PRT and it would be configured with PRT_USE to use either SER or PAR. Anyone still got the sources? -- Rich Mellor RWAP Services 26 Oak Road, Shelfield, Walsall, West Midlands WS4 1RQ http://www.rwapservices.co.uk/ ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: Re: [ql-users] Proforma Filter
On 27 Nov 2004 at 16:02, Rich Mellor wrote: Trouble is we need to foresee that not everyone will think to swap the printer driver over. No. If they don't swap - too bad for them. If we can support it - why not I am happy to assist with writing the programs, I don't expect it to all lie on your shoulders Wolfgang. Neither do I... The sources are on my website. No, the filter wouldn't need to spot that, you'd use another filter. Depends - someone might at some stage develop a program which can output both text and graphics.. I think there was an old utility which already could do this from a Quill DOC file - am thinking back to CGH Services days (late 80s) Surely it would make more sense to send everything as graphics, then? Wolfgang www.scp-paulet-lenerz.com ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: Re: [ql-users] Proforma Filter
Remember, each different GDI printer needs its own driver... I have mentioned this so many times. ProForma as it stands will only print to printers for which it has drivers and there are no ESC/P raster drivers. The cheap printers have no emulations. Even the expensive printers often have no emulations and some that have ESC/P2 - like my C80 - print from the QL and from Q40 but not from QPC2 which will happily print to the EPL 6200 using ESC/P2. It is a veritable minefield. Yet looking at the Epson documentation, my Stylus 880 for example has a 'raster graphics compatibility mode' whatever that may be. I haven't been able to find anyone able to answer this fully. It seems that some of these textless printers we assume are good for nothing do have a broad equivalent of a graphics mode, some with compression to reduce (and so speed up) the transfer of rasterised data. Since Proforma does devolve text down to raster graphics there may be scope for investigating possibilities here. If it is indeed true that at least some of these printers have raster graphics possibilities, it is definitely worth progressing with Proforma as although it won't by itself solve the Windows-only printer problem, if it does turn out that there is a route to these printers even if only blindly sending graphics data via a PAR or SER port, we may yet see a route ahead with them. As there are plenty of Linux drivers out there complete with sources, it's worth someone with the necessary knowledge having a look at what the Linux driver does. As we have sources for a PAR driver, it may not be beyond the bo unds of possibility that at least some of these printers are accessible even if indirectly. The Epson documentation is much less than clear on this - the raster codes (just two or three) it lists may be just to switch the printer out of Epson mode into Windows-only mode, I can't tell from the documentation and I haven't a Windows-only printer to try. It would be fairly straightforward I think to create a file with the right byte values in it and some random meaningless graphics such as a series of squares to copy_n to a printer, but I'm not very optimistic to be honest. Yuk, this is getting messy. It would have been nice and clear cut if I could have given a 'no chance whatsoever' or 'good chance' reply, but now I find myself in that horrible '1% chance' scenario where I originally thought there was hope, then thought 'no chance' and so on. Dilwyn Jones ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: [ql-users] Proforma Filter
Rich Mellor wrote: On Thu, 25 Nov 2004 20:43:29 +0100, Wolfgang Lenerz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 25 Nov 2004 at 18:46, Rich Mellor wrote: Just add a graphics filter. I'll let this stand as is. I have no idea how easy it is to pass a PIC file to Proforma - Joachim?? Great to know that PROforma has existsed for (I think) close to ten years now, and still hardly anybody knows anything about it :-( Just tell PROforma to produce a bitmap picture of type pic at given position/size. The bitmap needs to be in a buffer somewhere. Joachim ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: [ql-users] Proforma Filter
On Fri, 26 Nov 2004 01:33:47 -, P Witte [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Wolfgang Lenerz writes: To to this within the device driver will be a non trivial task because you wil have to open a filing system channel from withing the open call of a non filing system device driver. That's what the FILTER THING would be very good for. Probably not (?). I presume the 'thing' use call would open the channel to the filing system. If you call the thing use routine from within the PFF channel open call (which is what I see proposed), you have the same problem as you will STILL be within the channel open call when using the 'thing'! Or skip the Thing altogether and make its fuctionality part of the PFF device driver: On the Open call the PFF device driver's primary functions are decode the name check the details set up and configure a channel definition block If all of the above are ok then, on exiting, set the calling job's program counter to a subroutine that starts an independent job that opens any channels and keeps things moving, ie a Driver JOB, and then returns to the calling job, where it left off, with a channel ID. Trouble is Per, that you cannot do all this within a device driver because it is running in supervisor mode. I also understand that a non-directory device cannot open a channel to a file This is why the THING was envisaged The Driver Job could then set up the appropriate Filter Program for that protocol (is this really needed?) and provide it with an input pipe which would be connected with the driver at the other end and operated like a queue via normal serial IO. Different protocols are needed to handle different QL programs and add extra functionality. Not really too much trouble to add support for different protocols - its more a question of whether the filters are written to support them -- Rich Mellor RWAP Services 26 Oak Road, Shelfield, Walsall, West Midlands WS4 1RQ http://www.rwapservices.co.uk/ ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: Re: [ql-users] Proforma Filter
I have no idea how easy it is to pass a PIC file to Proforma - Joachim?? Great to know that PROforma has existsed for (I think) close to ten years now, and still hardly anybody knows anything about it :-( The term is more like knew rather than knows. I probably have forgotten more about it than I know now. These days I tend to only use it when I use Line Design. Dilwyn Jones ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: [ql-users] Proforma Filter
On Fri, 26 Nov 2004 11:46:04 +0100, Joachim Van der Auwera [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Rich Mellor wrote: Trouble is Per, that you cannot do all this within a device driver because it is running in supervisor mode. I also understand that a non-directory device cannot open a channel to a file This is why the THING was envisaged As the thing will be called in supervisor mode itself, it could just keep track of some ready for use channels which are then passed to the device driver when needed. Then the problem is fully solved. The thing itself checks whether there are still enough waiting devices and allocates new devices in user mode which are queued for use by the device (in supervisor mode). Joachim ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm Hmm - still hoping someone will put themselves forward to look at writing the THING Does anyone have some source code I could look at for creating THINGs and using them?? Need more than a simple example I guess - would of course not disclose it to anyone without permission if it is for a commercial product -- Rich Mellor RWAP Services 26 Oak Road, Shelfield, Walsall, West Midlands WS4 1RQ http://www.rwapservices.co.uk/ ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: Re: [ql-users] Proforma Filter
Rich Mellor wrote: Does anyone have some source code I could look at for creating THINGs and using them?? Need more than a simple example I guess - would of course not disclose it to anyone without permission if it is for a commercial product 1) Have a look at Jochen's THING articles in QL Today (think there's copies on either the documentation CD or documentation website or both). 2) While on the documentation website, have a look at other entries in the Thing section, don't remember if there's any examples in there. Dilwyn Jones ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: [ql-users] Proforma Filter
On 26 Nov 2004 at 1:33, P Witte wrote: (...) On the Open call the PFF device driver's primary functions are decode the name check the details set up and configure a channel definition block yes, indeed! If all of the above are ok then, on exiting, set the calling job's program counter to a subroutine that starts an independent job that opens any channels and keeps things moving, ie a Driver JOB, and then returns to the calling job, where it left off, with a channel ID. This poses a certain number of problems, not alone that of not knowing at all where the calling job's PC lies. After all, by the time your (my) device driver open routine is called, there are so many things on the stack including return addresses within the IOSS (the very first one, for example, is one), that I would be very hesitant to say ok, this is the job's routine address and I'll change that. Wolfgang The Driver Job could then set up the appropriate Filter Program for that protocol (is this really needed?) I don't belive it, but Rich does. (...) Wolfgang www.scp-paulet-lenerz.com ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: Re: [ql-users] Proforma Filter
On 25 Nov 2004 at 20:44, Rich Mellor wrote: The trouble is locating them - if these printers are so readily available at low prices, then what exactly are we developing this for as the QL can already output PCL 3 (just not the later versions). Well all I (innocently) did to get this started was to write an ASCII to PROfoma transformer... I stil think that the mian printing should be done from PROforma, after all Joachim did a great job there! Easiest thing is to print a test page from Quill as it includes some codes at the start which also need to be ignored ESC @ - reset printer ESC C n - set page length in lines CHR$(13) - Carriage Return CHR$(10) - Line Feed CHR$(12) - Form Feed ESC R n - Select international character set - used to translate £ symbol (n=0 is USA, n=3 is UK) ESC E - Bold on ESC F - Bold off ESC 4 - Italics on ESC 5 - Italics off ESC - n - Underline on / off (n=1,49 ON or 0,48 OFF) ESC S 0 and ESC S 48 - Superscript on ESC S 1 and ESC S 49 - Subscript on ESC T - turn off subscript / superscript OK, I'll see what I can do. Those are probably the main ones from memory - the translates are the problem areas. (...) If only all programs could output to a file - certainly accounts programs do not allow you to do this - as this is part of the security - prevents you from altering the reports by hand. OK, hence the PFF driver... Yes lol !! Chances are however, they will forget to launch the second print spooler program. OK. I've been thinking about that a few days now, and the only thing I can come up with to avoid that is that you have some kind of background job that is suspended until(either a byte is set in a thing or a byte is present in a pipe etc...) Of course, the job only needs to come up every x seconds. This is feasable. I find this scheme intellectually unsatisfying, though, since it seems wasteful to me as you will have a job querying th byte/channel/whatever periodically, thus eating up resources (memory -the job is loaded, time - the job runs) But I have been unable to think of something better. Anbody ? Yes but why should the QL be limited like this - it is much easier if you can add a job to a print queue and close the current program you are using. Ok, so now we aren't talking about a printer conversion, but about print spooling/queuing etc A whole new ballgame (...) What if this punter wants to print 1000 files at the same time to 1000 different printers hanging off a super USB interface, some of which use Epson emulation, some others Postscript, yet others GDI and whatnot? Do we care if he can't do that? Not that hypothetical - if the user is using a complicated filter (eg. convert to postscript), then they could be waiting a while, without actually knowing what is going on in the background as there is no reassuring noise of the printer running. You're pleading my case here - if they then initiated the printing via a separate print job, that could keep them informed... (...) I have no idea how easy it is to pass a PIC file to Proforma - Joachim?? No it isn't olny that. Until now, we've been talking text conversion programs. No you're mixing (?) text graphices. This is a different league. (...) Yes this would be easier IF the user has enough memory to hold the document in a pipe Remember we want to aim this at the lowest common denominator. No we don't. We need somebody with a machine big enough to run Proforma, PTR_GEN (for things) etc. At least a Gold Card, I'd say. (...) Wolfgang www.scp-paulet-lenerz.com ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: [ql-users] Proforma Filter
On 26 Nov 2004 at 10:10, Rich Mellor wrote: (...) I wonder why it will not print from QPC2. ?? Me too! If the same printer prints from the Q60, QPC should be able to handle it, too. Unless it's the way the printer port is set up in your bios (ECP EPP and whatnot) ? Wolfgang www.scp-paulet-lenerz.com ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: [ql-users] Proforma Filter
On 26 Nov 2004 at 11:46, Joachim Van der Auwera wrote: As the thing will be called in supervisor mode itself, it could just keep track of some ready for use channels which are then passed to the device driver when needed. Then the problem is fully solved. The thing itself checks whether there are still enough waiting devices and allocates new devices in user mode which are queued for use by the device (in supervisor mode). There's something I don't understand. When will the thing allocate devices in user mode? Perhaps we can agree that a thing never does any...thing by itself. The only time something is achieved with a thing is when a JOB calls the thing's use routine. Then that thing use routine is executed as if it was part of the job's code. To allocate new devices in user mode a job would have to call the thing in user mode, and we're back to the beginning (at least I think we are). Wolfgang www.scp-paulet-lenerz.com ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: [ql-users] Proforma Filter
Rich Mellor writes: Or skip the Thing altogether and make its fuctionality part of the PFF device driver: On the Open call the PFF device driver's primary functions are decode the name check the details set up and configure a channel definition block If all of the above are ok then, on exiting, set the calling job's program counter to a subroutine that starts an independent job that opens any channels and keeps things moving, ie a Driver JOB, and then returns to the calling job, where it left off, with a channel ID. Trouble is Per, that you cannot do all this within a device driver because it is running in supervisor mode. I also understand that a non-directory device cannot open a channel to a file This is why the THING was envisaged I KNOW, and this is a way round the problem. NO channels are opened inside the driver - just as shown above. And whether a Thing or a Job is used to manage the different stages of the printing utility doesnt really make a difference. Jobs are more universal (Hot_rext is required for Things as its not part of Qdos) and the only Things that actually do any unsupervised work anyway are EXECutable Things - ie jobs. The Driver Job could then set up the appropriate Filter Program for that protocol (is this really needed?) and provide it with an input pipe which would be connected with the driver at the other end and operated like a queue via normal serial IO. Different protocols are needed to handle different QL programs and add extra functionality. Not really too much trouble to add support for different protocols - its more a question of whether the filters are written to support them You seem to forget that straight ASCII is understood by ESC/P2, so you could LIST a Basic program to the device driver/printer utility that only supported EAS/P2. Other application programs will usually come with their own printer drivers. If these are all configured to use ESC/P2 then there is no need to support any other protocol. Graphics programs will have drivers that provide the codes required to show that it is not just outputting plain text. Again, if the ESC/P2 driver were chosen then that would simplify the whole design of this project by cutting out another unnecessary middleman! Per ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: [ql-users] Proforma Filter
Rich Mellor writes: Hmm - still hoping someone will put themselves forward to look at writing the THING Does anyone have some source code I could look at for creating THINGs and using them?? Need more than a simple example I guess - would of course not disclose it to anyone without permission if it is for a commercial product I hope nobody's thinking about writing a single line of fuctional code before the design is finalised. I think weve all seen what that could lead to.. Per ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: Re: [ql-users] Proforma Filter
On Fri, 26 Nov 2004 13:54:49 +0100, Wolfgang Lenerz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 25 Nov 2004 at 20:44, Rich Mellor wrote: The trouble is locating them - if these printers are so readily available at low prices, then what exactly are we developing this for as the QL can already output PCL 3 (just not the later versions). Well all I (innocently) did to get this started was to write an ASCII to PROfoma transformer... I stil think that the mian printing should be done from PROforma, after all Joachim did a great job there! Yes agreed :-) cut Those are probably the main ones from memory - the translates are the problem areas. (...) Best option is to throw some files at the filter once it is running on a wide number of setups. Everyone uses different translates where one character in Quill is translated to various printer control codes, eg. to use italics, get both the # and £ symbol etc... May just need to build up the various character set tables in the filter program to support this... cut Yes lol !! Chances are however, they will forget to launch the second print spooler program. OK. I've been thinking about that a few days now, and the only thing I can come up with to avoid that is that you have some kind of background job that is suspended until(either a byte is set in a thing or a byte is present in a pipe etc...) Of course, the job only needs to come up every x seconds. This is feasable. I find this scheme intellectually unsatisfying, though, since it seems wasteful to me as you will have a job querying th byte/channel/whatever periodically, thus eating up resources (memory -the job is loaded, time - the job runs) But I have been unable to think of something better. Anbody ? Maybe the better option would be for all filter programs to be installed into a common directory. Some form of header could be added (in REM statements, C, or Machine code block) which could be interrogated by the FILTER THING to find out what filters are available for each intermediate protocol - it could then either launch the default filter as required.. (maybe offer the user a list of filters to choose from). The only problem here is if the user only has floppy disk drives and no permanent storage. Maybe they should get a ROMDisq !! Yes but why should the QL be limited like this - it is much easier if you can add a job to a print queue and close the current program you are using. Ok, so now we aren't talking about a printer conversion, but about print spooling/queuing etc A whole new ballgame Yes it is - however, the FILTER THING could be adapted to handle this at some time in the future... What if this punter wants to print 1000 files at the same time to 1000 different printers hanging off a super USB interface, some of which use Epson emulation, some others Postscript, yet others GDI and whatnot? Do we care if he can't do that? Not that hypothetical - if the user is using a complicated filter (eg. convert to postscript), then they could be waiting a while, without actually knowing what is going on in the background as there is no reassuring noise of the printer running. You're pleading my case here - if they then initiated the printing via a separate print job, that could keep them informed... Yes I agree - but the filters are intended to be bolt on programs - they can give whatever feedback to the user they like. Where is this point heading?? I have no idea how easy it is to pass a PIC file to Proforma - Joachim?? No it isn't olny that. Until now, we've been talking text conversion programs. No you're mixing (?) text graphices. This is a different league. Yes it is - scheme as it stands allows this to be developed for the future. If we are capturing standard ESC/P2 graphics data sent to the PFF device (by SDUMP for example), then a filter could spot the header for this and convert it to Proforma (or PIC file) as necessary. The ESC/P2 raster graphics format is failry easy to decode :-) Still not exactly required at the outset is it!! Yes this would be easier IF the user has enough memory to hold the document in a pipe Remember we want to aim this at the lowest common denominator. No we don't. We need somebody with a machine big enough to run Proforma, PTR_GEN (for things) etc. At least a Gold Card, I'd say. Looks like they will also need some form of permanent storage. At least if we persuade users to move onto a Gold Card, they can then look at updating to a modern operating system as well (SMSQ/e) plus bring their QLs into the modern world. We need some idea from the questionnaire as to how many people are still sub Gold Card standard don't we (thank heavens Tony and Quanta did this form in the end) I have at least 3 Gold Cards here for sale... -- Rich Mellor RWAP Services 26 Oak Road, Shelfield, Walsall, West Midlands WS4 1RQ http://www.rwapservices.co.uk/ ___ QL-Users Mailing List
Re: [ql-users] Proforma Filter
On Fri, 26 Nov 2004 14:12:46 +0100, Wolfgang Lenerz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 26 Nov 2004 at 11:46, Joachim Van der Auwera wrote: As the thing will be called in supervisor mode itself, it could just keep track of some ready for use channels which are then passed to the device driver when needed. Then the problem is fully solved. The thing itself checks whether there are still enough waiting devices and allocates new devices in user mode which are queued for use by the device (in supervisor mode). There's something I don't understand. When will the thing allocate devices in user mode? Perhaps we can agree that a thing never does any...thing by itself. The only time something is achieved with a thing is when a JOB calls the thing's use routine. Then that thing use routine is executed as if it was part of the job's code. To allocate new devices in user mode a job would have to call the thing in user mode, and we're back to the beginning (at least I think we are). Wolfgang Perhaps the best solution (?) would be for the FILTER THING to maintain a user defineable number of open channels (say 5?) - it would open them all at initialisation. Then when a filter program is launched to deal with the data contained within one of the open channels, it could tell the FILTER THING (in user mode) to open another one ready... How memory hungry would this be -- Rich Mellor RWAP Services 26 Oak Road, Shelfield, Walsall, West Midlands WS4 1RQ http://www.rwapservices.co.uk/ ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: [ql-users] Proforma Filter
P Witte wrote: Rich Mellor writes: Hmm - still hoping someone will put themselves forward to look at writing the THING Does anyone have some source code I could look at for creating THINGs and using them?? Need more than a simple example I guess - would of course not disclose it to anyone without permission if it is for a commercial product I hope nobody's thinking about writing a single line of fuctional code before the design is finalised. I think weve all seen what that could lead to.. I hope that anybody wanting and having time to actually write something simply goes ahead and does it. We may be building a good spec, but everybody will write it differently. And even having a good spec is no use when nobody can or wants to implement it. Joachim ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: [ql-users] Proforma Filter
Joachim Van der Auwera writes: A device driver can never setup a job. You didnt read my algorithm: It doesnt. All it does is to CAUSE the calling job to do that. This is an accepted tequnique in Qdos. Don't think so. I would like to know the details about how that would be done. How detailed do you want it? When the Open call is entered the system is in SV mode. The job making the call is the current job The current job's ID is known Current job is known to be alive and is not removable during the call Find its JCB entry Find its SP and increment it by four Put its PC into the location pointed to by its SP (top of its User Stack) Put the initialisation code's address in its PC Exit the Open call, ie return control to the calling program It, quite unconciously, will continue executing the next instruction which happens to be our initialisation code The initialisation code is now being executed under the auspices of our calling program (the application) It saves all registers it uses Sets up the Printer utility job Opens an input pipe for Proforma Connects the input pipe with the output pipe from the application Activates the Printer utility job Restores registers Exits via rts thus handing control back to the application Now I can forsee there might be a problem if the calling job is in SV mode when it makes the Open call, as it would first have to exit SV mode before it could set up jobs, open channels and things, but it must sooner or later exit that mode, and the execution will procede as described. The driver will have to set a flag in the CDB to indicate that initialisation is not yet complete and no data may pass through it before the Printer utility job has initialised. This would only be a problem if the calling job, ie the application opening the PFF device, were in SV mode during the Open call, and then proceded to squirt out data without coming up for air in the mean time. A rather unlikely scenario? To simplify matters (the cheapest way of writing code) only a queue (pipe) would need to be used between the PFF device driver and the page rendering program (ie Proforma or Ghostscript). The page rendering program would be instructed how to output the data by the printer utility job based on settings found in the channel definition block [CDB] of the PFF driver. If it was that simple there would be no discussion. PROforma is not a page rendering program, it is just a library. If you call the library, there is no need for the device. Ghostscript is a program which requires a specific input format (Postscript). If you can modify the software to generate the specific format, then you can just as well call Ghostscript directly, and there is no need for the device. The filter programs are needed to support existing format and render using an existing library (we are discussing using PROforma) Right, so I misunderstood the functionality of Proforma (Ive just downloaded it and am working through the documentation, ditto Ghostscript). It doesnt really matter: Only a single intermediary protocol needs to be used, ie from ESC/P2 to Proforma and this could be performed by the device driver. If one wants Ghostscript support (instead) then the driver would have to support ESC/P2 to Postscript. If you wanted to have both, then either the driver has to support both or the driver could load and register additional modules, eg as part of its loading-and-initialisation process (ie during LRESPRing of the driver). When this is used, to support ancient programs, you need the device. When this is written, you could use this mechanism in more recent programs to make it easier to produce fancy output (hence the native PROforma intermediate format). Per ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: [ql-users] Proforma Filter
Wolfgang Lenerz wrote: I wonder why it will not print from QPC2. ?? Me too! If the same printer prints from the Q60, QPC should be able to handle it, too. Unless it's the way the printer port is set up in your bios (ECP EPP and whatnot)? USB vs parallel connection? Just my guess. Marcel ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: [ql-users] Proforma Filter
John Hall wrote: I think you'll find that the JCB is only updated when a task switch occurs... When a TRAP#n is executed, the PC and SP are saved on the supervisor stack, hence WL's earlier comment... Oops! PC and SR, of course :-) In supervisor mode, the job's SP is in the USP... Now I can forsee there might be a problem if the calling job is in SV mode when it makes the Open call, as it would first have to exit SV mode before it could set up jobs, open channels and things, but it must sooner or later exit that mode, and the execution will procede as described. This is wrong, for the above reason. Correction. This would work, so long as the job's PC could be found on the supervisor stack by the driver code... John ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: Re: [ql-users] Proforma Filter
- Original Message - From: Rich Mellor Sent: Thursday, November 25, 2004 6:51 PM Subject: Re: Re: [ql-users] Proforma Filter Peter Graf is work on network drivers for the Qx0. What happens if an application crashes while printing, is the PFF device block from further use. Glad to hear it - its such a shame that Peter does not keep everyone informed of what he is working on - it might generate more interest in the Q40 / Q60. Plus someone might be willing to help. You cannot expect Peter to contribute to this discussion when he gets shot at everytime he pokes his head above the parapet. Don't forget that after his last contribution to this list two people told him he was not welcome and only one defended him. He is not there to be switched on an off as we want. If you want information from Peter, why don't you email him privately? I had an extensive correspondence with him over QL2004 without any problems. Best Wishes, Geoff ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: Re: [ql-users] Proforma Filter
On 26 Nov 2004 at 13:27, Rich Mellor wrote: (...) Best option is to throw some files at the filter once it is running on a wide number of setups. Everyone uses different translates where one character in Quill is translated to various printer control codes, eg. to use italics, get both the # and £ symbol etc... May just need to build up the various character set tables in the filter program to support this... No, definitely not. If printing from (Xchange) Quill use the printer driver I supplied.. (...) Yes I agree - but the filters are intended to be bolt on programs - they can give whatever feedback to the user they like. Where is this point heading?? :-))) Yes it is - scheme as it stands allows this to be developed for the future. If we are capturing standard ESC/P2 graphics data sent to the PFF device (by SDUMP for example), then a filter could spot the header for this and convert it to Proforma (or PIC file) as necessary. The ESC/P2 raster graphics format is failry easy to decode :-) No, the filter wouldn't need to spot that, you'd use another filter. (...) Wolfgang www.scp-paulet-lenerz.com ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: Re: [ql-users] Proforma Filter
On Fri, 26 Nov 2004, gwicks wrote: If you want information from Peter, why don't you email him privately? I had an extensive correspondence with him over QL2004 without any problems. I have always found Peter to speak his own mind. He is always willing to talk by email. I got off to a very poor start with him, but he was very patient with me and we have a good understanding of each other now. He's cool. That is to say he has actually done something, and released it. It takes a certain degree of stubbornness to do that. Dave ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: [ql-users] Proforma Filter
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Wolfgang Lenerz [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes Me too! If the same printer prints from the Q60, QPC should be able to handle it, too. Unless it's the way the printer port is set up in your bios (ECP EPP and whatnot) Tried all that. It prints fine from the PC and fine from the Q40 and QL. If you plug my Stylus 600 into the same port that prints fine from QPC2. I can print across the network from the PC to the Stylus 600 plugged into the laptop but not across the network from the laptop to the C80. The EPL 6200 is plugged into the USB port on the PC and that prints OK from QPC2 as well. -- Roy Wood Q Branch. 20 Locks Hill, Portslade, Sussex.BN41 2LB Tel: +44 (0) 1273 386030fax: +44 (0) 1273 430501 web : www.qbranch.demon.co.uk ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: [ql-users] Proforma Filter
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Marcel Kilgus [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes USB vs parallel connection? Just my guess. Nope. We tied that. See other posts -- Roy Wood Q Branch. 20 Locks Hill, Portslade, Sussex.BN41 2LB Tel: +44 (0) 1273 386030fax: +44 (0) 1273 430501 web : www.qbranch.demon.co.uk ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: Re: [ql-users] Proforma Filter
On Fri, 26 Nov 2004 13:40:57 -0600 (CST), Dave P [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Fri, 26 Nov 2004, gwicks wrote: If you want information from Peter, why don't you email him privately? I had an extensive correspondence with him over QL2004 without any problems. I have always found Peter to speak his own mind. He is always willing to talk by email. I got off to a very poor start with him, but he was very patient with me and we have a good understanding of each other now. He's cool. That is to say he has actually done something, and released it. It takes a certain degree of stubbornness to do that. Fair enough, but all I want is for him to post a message to the mailing list or even one of the magazines, letting us know what developments are happening every now and then !! -- Rich Mellor RWAP Services 26 Oak Road, Shelfield, Walsall, West Midlands WS4 1RQ http://www.rwapservices.co.uk/ ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
RE: Re: [ql-users] Proforma Filter
The problem is analysing the data, and the big difficulty with the QL survey is that it will be too biased to the users of this list who may not be typical of Quanta members. Yes but they are typical of active QL users the sort of people Quanta needs to court. What did you say you learned in market research? :- )) Duncan Neithercut -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of gwicks Sent: 25 November 2004 21:24 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Re: [ql-users] Proforma Filter - Original Message - From: Rich Mellor Sent: Thursday, November 25, 2004 6:54 PM Subject: Re: Re: [ql-users] Proforma Filter Yes, the survey MAY shed some light on the subject - however, what's the betting that we get no more than 40 replies. What's wrong with 40 replies? It may surprise you but a lot of professional market research uses samples that are not much bigger than that. I have twice done work for a major car manufacturer. Each time the sample was 50 interviews with Dutch users and 50 UK users. The first car we did was universally praised and went on to be heavily advertised. The second was a top of the range 4x4 and we heard nothing but stories of loose ashtrays and malfunctioning computers that could not be overriden manually. Out of the Dutch sample two drivers had had the experience of the car coming to a complete standstill on the fast lane of a motorway. That model was never advertised, disappeared from the range and it is only now after some years that a new version has been released. (Interesting addtional point. It was not in the survey, but I could also tell that that particularly make of car was very popular under devout catholics.) The problem is analysing the data, and the big difficulty with the QL survey is that it will be too biased to the users of this list who may not be typical of Quanta members. Best Wishes, Geoff ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
RE: Re: [ql-users] Proforma Filter
Geoff He has done a good bit of shooting also and IMHO for his personal satisfaction first leaving aside the needs of the users who have rallied to his call and invested in the Qx0 series, time and real cash! Its also no suprise that now when he appears some people thoughtlessly continue to shoot first. No matter how talented Peter is he needs a critical mass of interest and support as much as other developers interested in more PC orientated QL things. Those in this other camp desperately need his talents and area of focus hence the shots. It is past time to bury hatchets and act like adults. Those with most status have most to gain by bending a little. Those who may have to concede a little need to realise that not every conflict is decided by a single battle. A step back today does not meet loss forever or oblivion for a final vision. In a dialogue one concession needs to be matched with another. The World is a funny place. Send flames if you wish. I advise asbestos suits if you do. Best Wishes Duncan -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of gwicks Sent: 26 November 2004 17:31 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Re: [ql-users] Proforma Filter - Original Message - From: Rich Mellor Sent: Thursday, November 25, 2004 6:51 PM Subject: Re: Re: [ql-users] Proforma Filter Peter Graf is work on network drivers for the Qx0. What happens if an application crashes while printing, is the PFF device block from further use. Glad to hear it - its such a shame that Peter does not keep everyone informed of what he is working on - it might generate more interest in the Q40 / Q60. Plus someone might be willing to help. You cannot expect Peter to contribute to this discussion when he gets shot at everytime he pokes his head above the parapet. Don't forget that after his last contribution to this list two people told him he was not welcome and only one defended him. He is not there to be switched on an off as we want. If you want information from Peter, why don't you email him privately? I had an extensive correspondence with him over QL2004 without any problems. Best Wishes, Geoff ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: [ql-users] Proforma Filter
Hi think that I saw Marcel ask this but if not: Lets say that we come up with a way to print to a modern printer. But don't all the printers use USB now? How would they connect to the non-QPC QLs (or QPC on older computers without USB)? Cheers, jim ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: [ql-users] Proforma Filter
On Fri, 26 Nov 2004 12:49:40 -0800, James Hunkins [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi think that I saw Marcel ask this but if not: Lets say that we come up with a way to print to a modern printer. But don't all the printers use USB now? How would they connect to the non-QPC QLs (or QPC on older computers without USB)? Cheers, jim ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm Not all printers use USB no But then not all printers are Windows only It is just becoming more and more difficult to track which ones suit our needs - lets face it, in the time its taken to write this email, EPSON have probably removed a couple of printers from their product line and brought out another model. We need to do something... What other option do we have - stick with buying and selling 2nd hand printers? I find it very hard to find a reliable source of second hand printers - when they are posted, they don't always survive the postal system (or the ink leaks out) and few people are willing to test them.. -- Rich Mellor RWAP Services 26 Oak Road, Shelfield, Walsall, West Midlands WS4 1RQ http://www.rwapservices.co.uk/ ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: [ql-users] Proforma Filter
On Thu, 25 Nov 2004 at 21:23:49, gwicks wrote: (ref: [EMAIL PROTECTED]) - Original Message - From: Rich Mellor Sent: Thursday, November 25, 2004 6:54 PM Subject: Re: Re: [ql-users] Proforma Filter Yes, the survey MAY shed some light on the subject - however, what's the betting that we get no more than 40 replies. What's wrong with 40 replies? It may surprise you but a lot of professional market research uses samples that are not much bigger than that. Sixty already just from my web form. Tony -- QBBS (QL fido BBS 2:252/67) +44(0)1442-828255 tony@surname.co.uk http://www.firshman.co.uk Voice: +44(0)1442-828254 Fax: +44(0)1442-828255 TF Services, 29 Longfield Road, TRING, Herts, HP23 4DG ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: [ql-users] Proforma Filter
On Fri, 26 Nov 2004 21:43:33 +, Tony Firshman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thu, 25 Nov 2004 at 21:23:49, gwicks wrote: (ref: [EMAIL PROTECTED]) - Original Message - From: Rich Mellor Sent: Thursday, November 25, 2004 6:54 PM Subject: Re: Re: [ql-users] Proforma Filter Yes, the survey MAY shed some light on the subject - however, what's the betting that we get no more than 40 replies. What's wrong with 40 replies? It may surprise you but a lot of professional market research uses samples that are not much bigger than that. Sixty already just from my web form. Tony That is a real surprise but at least shows there is some impetus behind the QL at the moment... The results will be very interesting - who is going to collate all the data to come up with the results?? I know that the details from non-Quanta members may not be sent to Quanta, but I do think this would be of interest to them - especially if they make any comments as to what they would like to see from Quanta (which may give incentive for them to join). -- Rich Mellor RWAP Services 26 Oak Road, Shelfield, Walsall, West Midlands WS4 1RQ http://www.rwapservices.co.uk/ ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: [ql-users] Proforma Filter
On Fri, 26 Nov 2004 21:32:50 -, John Hall [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: John Hall wrote: John Hall wrote: I think you'll find that the JCB is only updated when a task switch occurs... When a TRAP#n is executed, the PC and SP are saved on the supervisor stack, hence WL's earlier comment... Oops! PC and SR, of course :-) In supervisor mode, the job's SP is in the USP... Now I can forsee there might be a problem if the calling job is in SV mode when it makes the Open call, as it would first have to exit SV mode before it could set up jobs, open channels and things, but it must sooner or later exit that mode, and the execution will procede as described. This is wrong, for the above reason. Correction. This would work, so long as the job's PC could be found on the supervisor stack by the driver code... ...which, of course, it couldn't if the job had entered supervisor mode via TRAP#0 :-( (Time to stop talking to myself and have a beer, I think!) Hmm - this strategy would have benefits - however, it seems no-one is sure if it will work. Guess the only way to tell is to write a short test routine once the initial PFF driver is put together by Wolfgang - look forward to seeing what happens!! -- Rich Mellor RWAP Services 26 Oak Road, Shelfield, Walsall, West Midlands WS4 1RQ http://www.rwapservices.co.uk/ ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: Re: [ql-users] Proforma Filter
- Original Message - From: Rich Mellor Sent: Friday, November 26, 2004 7:47 PM Subject: Re: Re: [ql-users] Proforma Filter Fair enough, but all I want is for him to post a message to the mailing list or even one of the magazines, letting us know what developments are happening every now and then !! As it happens I am corresponding with Peter on another subject at the moment and have just emailed him. I took the opportunity of telling him of this thread and said people would be interested to hear of relevant Q60 developments. I did suggest that maybe private emails are better. BTW my impression is that there is a willingness on both sides to forget the arguments of the past. I was quite worried about the licence debate boiling up into a major row at QL2004 and spoiling the show if Peter came. (And I wanted him to be present.) I found both sides in the argument were prepared to be flexible to prevent that happening. We just have to be careful on both sides to avoid the subjects we know are too sensitive. Best Wishes, Geoff ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: [ql-users] Proforma Filter
On Fri, 26 Nov 2004 at 22:12:26, Rich Mellor wrote: (ref: [EMAIL PROTECTED]) On Fri, 26 Nov 2004 21:43:33 +, Tony Firshman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thu, 25 Nov 2004 at 21:23:49, gwicks wrote: (ref: [EMAIL PROTECTED]) - Original Message - From: Rich Mellor Sent: Thursday, November 25, 2004 6:54 PM Subject: Re: Re: [ql-users] Proforma Filter Yes, the survey MAY shed some light on the subject - however, what's the betting that we get no more than 40 replies. What's wrong with 40 replies? It may surprise you but a lot of professional market research uses samples that are not much bigger than that. Sixty already just from my web form. Tony That is a real surprise but at least shows there is some impetus behind the QL at the moment... I also mentioned on comp.sys.sinclair and told all those on my emailshot list. Quite a few people I thought had long since retired from the QL scene are popping up. Frank Davis is a notable one. He is still quietly keeping his had in it seems. The results will be very interesting - who is going to collate all the data to come up with the results?? I know that the details from non-Quanta members may not be sent to Quanta, but I do think this would be of interest to them - especially if they make any comments as to what they would like to see from Quanta (which may give incentive for them to join). John Southern is getting all the results. He said something to the effect that anything Quanta does is likely to benefit non-Quanta members too, so they should have some input. I am going to create an Archive export file of the results and give to John. I have saved to disk in text form. so they will be easily processable. John S - what are you doing with the paper input? It would be great to add to my database. Tony -- QBBS (QL fido BBS 2:252/67) +44(0)1442-828255 tony@surname.co.uk http://www.firshman.co.uk Voice: +44(0)1442-828254 Fax: +44(0)1442-828255 TF Services, 29 Longfield Road, TRING, Herts, HP23 4DG ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: Re: [ql-users] Proforma Filter
Yes, even Quill should be able to write to PFF as long as you enter it as '_PFF' in the printing dialogue if it won't accept just PFF. Quill can even accommodate unusual names like _n1_PAR for printing IIRC. Shouldn't be too difficult to write a program which looks for and automatically patches SER or PAR to PFF I'd have thought to help users not confident of their abilities to do it in a binary editors (new QL saying: PFF drivers do it with binary editors!) lbytes program into heap use something like Turbo Toolkit's SEARCH_MEMORY to locate a SER, ser or Ser string (think it's case sensitive) poke the new string in at this address redo until no more SER or PAR found SEXEC the program to overwrite the original It only becomes a problem if search and replace strings are different lengths I suppose I'm sure there was a lot of such programs around 20 years ago to change MDV to FLP, though I can't remember if the strings patched were fixed or could be changed. And didn't Freddy Vachha release a program called Transfer Utility or some name like that, which did pretty much the same thing? I don't know much about device drivers, so if I was involved I'd probably volunteer to write this as part of the project. In fact, I think I'll probably go ahead and write one anyway! Dilwyn Jones Marcel Kilgus wrote: Rich Mellor wrote: So how do we overcome this problem if we have a filter that captures output to PAR but our printer is connected to the PAR device?? Guess the simplest solution is to have the PFF_USE command alter the PAR device as well?? No no no. Do not mess up the system to accommodate 20 year old programs! Look at Windows, even XP is still compatible with Windows 1.0 applications and THAT is the main source of problems they have with that platform. Kludge over kludge! Ok, short recap: you want to rename all SER and PAR devices to be able to rename the PFF device to be a SER or PAR device. And because of what? To make some ancient programs happy that probably nobody uses anymore anyway! Work on the root of the problem! If you can't simply send those old bastards to bit heaven then change them! Usually it's a 1 minute job, take a hex editor, search for SER, overwrite with PFF and that's it. Marcel ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: [ql-users] Proforma Filter
Rich Mellor wrote: Wouldnt it be better for the filter Thing to run the filters as and when needed? Less resource hungry and could possibly simplify the filters themselves? Possibly - however, the problem (as always) lies in the FILTER THING knowing where the various filters are located in order to launch them. The idea is that they could remain as very low priority jobs until called upon - possibly run at a priority of 1 until a command is issued to them by the FILTER THING to launch them... - This is where the events would come in handy - however, are events available on all QL systems I wonder?? No, just use a normal priority. The filter job is a job to allow automatic registration. While there is nothing to print, the job will be sleeping (doing nothing, not taking up processor cycles). If the priority is low then the actual page rendering will be slow if there is something else happening at the same time. Joachim ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: [ql-users] Proforma Filter
Wolfgang Lenerz wrote: For the tilme being, I'll amend my filter prog so that it expects input from the pipe. When there is no more, the job will just hang. I hope you mean sleep :-) A question: do people really want to have several filter jobs in the machien at the same tile, i.e. have output to several printer form the same machine at the same time? Isn't that a bit of overkill? Don't think so, but it will depend on the applications. Maybe one program can only produce epson compatible output, and another is configured for your ascii thing. Joachim ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: [ql-users] Proforma Filter
Rich Mellor wrote: OK - good news - but does this mean that QDOS Classic will not work - I seem to recall that QDOS Classic does not support the pointer environment, though I could be wrong I am not sure PROforma will run without ptr_gen (I am pretty sure it needs hot_rext). Hmm - didn't comment on fonts - I guess that the filters will have to try and adapt standard fonts at present to represent those available on dot matrix printers. Ha, tricky. Besides how do you know which fonts are available in a certain installation? This may be configurable I guess on a per filter basis. That would ix it of course. However, I understand that Proforma can be launched on its own (without all of ProWesS) - which means it should fit on a Trump Card (have some of those too !!) - Joachim ?? I think you will want the GC's speed. Never tried it on a Trump card. Joachim ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: [ql-users] Proforma Filter
Wolfgang Lenerz wrote: On 24 Nov 2004 at 20:21, Rich Mellor wrote: OK that should fit on a Trump Card, especially if the FILTER THING can give the device driver the option of sending the output to a file instead of a pipe. To to this within the device driver will be a non trivial task because you wil have to open a filing system channel from withing the open call of a non filing system device driver. That's what the FILTER THING would be very good for. Joachim ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: Re: [ql-users] Proforma Filter
On Thu, 25 Nov 2004 14:11:19 +, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Yes, even Quill should be able to write to PFF as long as you enter it as '_PFF' in the printing dialogue if it won't accept just PFF. Quill can even accommodate unusual names like _n1_PAR for printing IIRC. Shouldn't be too difficult to write a program which looks for and automatically patches SER or PAR to PFF I'd have thought to help users not confident of their abilities to do it in a binary editors (new QL saying: PFF drivers do it with binary editors!) lbytes program into heap use something like Turbo Toolkit's SEARCH_MEMORY to locate a SER, ser or Ser string (think it's case sensitive) poke the new string in at this address redo until no more SER or PAR found SEXEC the program to overwrite the original It only becomes a problem if search and replace strings are different lengths I suppose I'm sure there was a lot of such programs around 20 years ago to change MDV to FLP, though I can't remember if the strings patched were fixed or could be changed. And didn't Freddy Vachha release a program called Transfer Utility or some name like that, which did pretty much the same thing? I don't know much about device drivers, so if I was involved I'd probably volunteer to write this as part of the project. In fact, I think I'll probably go ahead and write one anyway! Dilwyn Jones Yes please Dilwyn - the idea of the PFF device will be to cope with existing SER parameters as well (even if it just ignores some of them), so we need only be able to patch PAR and SER with PFF at the moment. There were some programs to do this already, as you say, but not everyone has the DP one and so its easier to write our own. Just need a nice interface to enter the name of the program to be patched - Menu extensions from Jochen seem the best bet as most people can use them. -- Rich Mellor RWAP Services 26 Oak Road, Shelfield, Walsall, West Midlands WS4 1RQ http://www.rwapservices.co.uk/ ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: Re: [ql-users] Proforma Filter
I am glad to see that this has at least inspired some interest and hopefully we will see the beginnings of some work towards an actual product - although we still have no confirmation that Proforms can output to a Windows only printer - if not, we may be in trouble. Surely someone has access to one of the cheap Epsons on a PC and can install QPC2 plus Linedesign and see if they can print something direct to that printer successfully. If there are no volunteers, guess I could always go and buy one for £40 or so just to try it. However, I have been asked to explain why the program needs to be so complex. I admit to the original moanings about using modern printers from within the QL. Wolfgang produced an excellent ASCII to Proforma filter which will overcome this, by taking an ASCII file and sending it to Proforma for printing. This is sufficient for printing plain ASCII files, and could be adapted to include EPSON control codes for files printed by some QL utilities. This however creates two problems: 1) Some programs on the QL only allow you to print to ser1 or PAR and do not allow you to send data to a file. 2) It is more user friendly to have a printing process which is invisible to the user. If the user has to always print to a file then run another program to get output, they will soon get fed up of this process and abandon the QL altogether. We therefore needed to design a PFF device which would allow these programs to print to the PFF device. The PFF device would then pass the output to the filter for processing and printing. Joachim then identified a third problem if we are to use a PFF device. If two programs on the QL try to print at the same time, then the output can become corrupt. We therefore decided that what is needed is a printer management program (the FILTER THING) which will capture the output from all the open PFF devices and store it for processing by filters one at a time. It would also enable more than one type of filter to be present in the QL at the same time (for example, for printing via Proforma, creating Postscript output or even for creating HTML output). This FILTER THING is the most complex part of the program, but essential to ensure that the user can have a wide range of printing options available. A flow chart appears below of the way the system will work: Proforma Filter Flow-Chart User initiates a Print command from within a program to the PFF device This will specify printer number and intermediate protocol (ASCII, EPSON, HP, Proforma) | | | PFF Device contacts the FILTER THING to check if the given printer exists and if the intermediate protocol is supported |- If given printer does not exist --- return error Not Found | |- If protocol not supported return error Not Implemented | FILTER THING opens a channel to the temporary storage (pipe or file) and passes the channel ID back to the PFF device | | | PFF device outputs the data to the specified channel ID | | | Once data printed by PFF device, PFF device notifies the FILTER THING that it is complete. FILTER THING closes the channel and then initiates the Filter Program for the specified protocol. FILTER THING opens a READ channel to the temporary storage and passes this to the filter program for processing | | | The Filter Program processes the data and passes it to Proforma / Ghostscript / Printer for printing. | | | Once the filter program has completed processing the data, it notifies the FILTER THING, passing back the READ channel ID. FILTER THING then closes the READ channel ID and deletes the temporary storage | | | Proforma / Ghostscript process the final data and send it to the printer. (NOTE: some filters
Re: [ql-users] Proforma Filter
On Wed, 24 Nov 2004 21:00:25 -, Duncan Neithercut [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Also willing to help out : Have you thought of starting with the source code of Norman Dunbars Black_Hole device publised in QLToday 1996 Duncan Neithercut Anyone got a copy please?? -- Rich Mellor RWAP Services 26 Oak Road, Shelfield, Walsall, West Midlands WS4 1RQ http://www.rwapservices.co.uk/ ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
RE: [ql-users] Proforma Filter
Its on Dilwyn Jones PD CDROM If you dont have that let me know I can zip you a copy. All it does its create a device to which you can send print output. Does nothing with it. Tested it last night on QPC2 with QD and nothing happened so it must work! Duncan Neithercut -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Rich Mellor Sent: 25 November 2004 16:06 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [ql-users] Proforma Filter On Wed, 24 Nov 2004 21:00:25 -, Duncan Neithercut [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Also willing to help out : Have you thought of starting with the source code of Norman Dunbars Black_Hole device publised in QLToday 1996 Duncan Neithercut Anyone got a copy please?? -- Rich Mellor RWAP Services 26 Oak Road, Shelfield, Walsall, West Midlands WS4 1RQ http://www.rwapservices.co.uk/ ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: [ql-users] Proforma Filter
On Thu, 25 Nov 2004 at 15:52:10, Rich Mellor wrote: (ref: [EMAIL PROTECTED]) 1) Some programs on the QL only allow you to print to ser1 or PAR and do not allow you to send data to a file. 2) It is more user friendly to have a printing process which is invisible to the user. If the user has to always print to a file then run another program to get output, they will soon get fed up of this process and abandon the QL altogether. For programs that allow printing to a file, one could write a background program that would search for files in a particular place, and then print them, and delete after printing. This would be ideal for hard disk users, but would work on floppy/romdisq too. or even ram if there is enough. The filter could be set up to handle all the special printer requirements. If the filename had a printer ID in it, it could even handle more than one printer at once connected to different ports. ie win1_pfiles_deskjet_file_lis Xchange would allow the long names. Other programs could use a re-directed name. Tony -- QBBS (QL fido BBS 2:252/67) +44(0)1442-828255 tony@surname.co.uk http://www.firshman.co.uk Voice: +44(0)1442-828254 Fax: +44(0)1442-828255 TF Services, 29 Longfield Road, TRING, Herts, HP23 4DG ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
RE: Re: [ql-users] Proforma Filter
Like SPLF tk2 ? -Message d'origine- De : [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] la part de Rich Mellor Envoyé : jeudi 25 novembre 2004 16:52 À : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Objet : Re: Re: [ql-users] Proforma Filter (...) Joachim then identified a third problem if we are to use a PFF device. If two programs on the QL try to print at the same time, then the output can become corrupt. We therefore decided that what is needed is a printer management program (the FILTER THING) which will capture the output from all the open PFF devices and store it for processing by filters one at a time. It would also enable more than one type of filter to be present in the QL at the same time (for example, for printing via Proforma, creating Postscript output or even for creating HTML output). ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: [ql-users] Proforma Filter
On Thu, 25 Nov 2004 17:48:32 +0100, Wolfgang Lenerz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 25 Nov 2004 at 16:09, Joachim Van der Auwera wrote: Wolfgang Lenerz wrote: On 24 Nov 2004 at 20:21, Rich Mellor wrote: OK that should fit on a Trump Card, especially if the FILTER THING can give the device driver the option of sending the output to a file instead of a pipe. To to this within the device driver will be a non trivial task because you wil have to open a filing system channel from withing the open call of a non filing system device driver. That's what the FILTER THING would be very good for. Probably not (?). I presume the 'thing' use call would open the channel to the filing system. If you call the thing use routine from within the PFF channel open call (which is what I see proposed), you have the same problem as you will STILL be within the channel open call when using the 'thing'! Hmm - had not thought of that . Guess the FILTER THING could open the channel ready until the PFF device calls for its use... In that way the open call will be entirely outside of the PFF device call. -- Rich Mellor RWAP Services 26 Oak Road, Shelfield, Walsall, West Midlands WS4 1RQ http://www.rwapservices.co.uk/ ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: Re: [ql-users] Proforma Filter
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED] Rich Mellor wrote: Finally, the other problem to be addressed is how the QL will communicate with the printer. Admittedly more and more printers have USB only connection which means that they currently cannot be connected to a native QL or the Qx0. However, this is down to the hardware designers to overcome. QPC2 users can print to USB printers (not sure about the other PC emulator users), but they still face the same problem that the printers cannot handle text sent directly to the USB port. Therefore there is a need for this software Peter Graf is work on network drivers for the Qx0. What happens if an application crashes while printing, is the PFF device block from further use. -- Tarquin Mills ACCUS (Anglia Classic Computer Users Society) http://www.speccyverse.me.uk/comp/accus/ ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: Re: [ql-users] Proforma Filter
On Thu, 25 Nov 2004 17:48:32 +0100, Wolfgang Lenerz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 25 Nov 2004 at 15:52, Rich Mellor wrote: I am glad to see that this has at least inspired some interest and hopefully we will see the beginnings of some work towards an actual product - although we still have no confirmation that Proforms can output to a Windows only printer - if not, we may be in trouble. Surely someone has access to one of the cheap Epsons on a PC and can install QPC2 plus Linedesign and see if they can print something direct to that printer successfully. If there are no volunteers, guess I could always go and buy one for £40 or so just to try it. Don't even bother. There is no Proforma driver for GDI printers, so no output to them. Remember, each different GDI printer needs its own driver... I'm not so sure - the EPSON GDI printers appear to use just the graphics driver which was used on the Epson 200 (maybe different DPIs but nothing else). Whether HP and Canon printers are the same, I do not know - it would be interesting to know what happens tho If Proforma cannot output to these printers - is there much point in persuing this further as people will still be struggling to find printers which are compatible with the QL... However, I have been asked to explain why the program needs to be so complex. I admit to the original moanings about using modern printers from within the QL. Wolfgang produced an excellent ASCII to Proforma filter which will overcome this, by taking an ASCII file and sending it to Proforma for printing. This is sufficient for printing plain ASCII files, and could be adapted to include EPSON control codes for files printed by some QL utilities. Well , if one told me what these were, I'd probably have done it already... Have a look at the standard Quill output for starters - Dilwyn will have a copy of the complete Epson ESC/P programming manual somewhere for download, but it is large. Text87 output is a lot more troublesome as it uses a large number of text formatting commands. This however creates two problems: 1) Some programs on the QL only allow you to print to ser1 or PAR and do not allow you to send data to a file. I haven't seen one of those yet, but anyway the PFF device will take care of this, a simple buffer (or actually not even that, it'll squirt everything to a pipe)... Yes it will... :-) However as you rightly say, the PFF device cannot open a directory device if the user wants to use a hard disk for temporary storage rather than space in memory... 2) It is more user friendly to have a printing process which is invisible to the user. If the user has to always print to a file then run another program to get output, they will soon get fed up of this process and abandon the QL altogether. I doubt it. Sell it to them as a modern version of a printer spooler. Not really a modern version of a printer spooler if they have to (a) Print from their program (b) remember to call up the printer spooler program to actually see any output.. !! It is all too easy to see no output from the printer and straight away think - oops have I run out of paper / ink Or just completely forget to print out the files (eg. if you go away from the QL while it is doing a series of reports). Joachim then identified a third problem if we are to use a PFF device. If two programs on the QL try to print at the same time, then the output can become corrupt. 1 - Design the PFF device so that it can only have one file open to it at any time. Trrivial,since we're designing that device anyway. Isn't that just adding to the annoyance factor - Cannot print now cos something else is spooling... 2 - What happens TODAY when two apps try to print to par/ser at the same time? In what way is the user better/worse off, even if we don't implement n° 1 above ? Because it prevents the user getting annoyed by having to wait until one print task is finished - they may not even know when it has finished and just have to keep on trying until the PFF device lets them (if printer in a different room, or filter is sending output to a postscript or HTML file rather than a physical printer). We therefore decided that what is needed is a printer management program (the FILTER THING) which will capture the output from all the open PFF devices and store it for processing by filters one at a time. In other words, you want to create a sort of buffer which is filled in through a device driver io routine, but is not part of that device driver. Or perhaps I misunderstand? Yes that is basically it. It would also enable more than one type of filter to be present in the QL at the same time (for example, for printing via Proforma, creating Postscript output or even for creating HTML output). Of course, we are still talking about simpe ascii files being transformed into all that, aren't we? ASCII or files containing epson control codes - depends on the filters that are
Re: Re: [ql-users] Proforma Filter
On Thu, 25 Nov 2004 18:33:16 GMT, Tarquin Mills [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In message [EMAIL PROTECTED] Rich Mellor wrote: Finally, the other problem to be addressed is how the QL will communicate with the printer. Admittedly more and more printers have USB only connection which means that they currently cannot be connected to a native QL or the Qx0. However, this is down to the hardware designers to overcome. QPC2 users can print to USB printers (not sure about the other PC emulator users), but they still face the same problem that the printers cannot handle text sent directly to the USB port. Therefore there is a need for this software Peter Graf is work on network drivers for the Qx0. What happens if an application crashes while printing, is the PFF device block from further use. Glad to hear it - its such a shame that Peter does not keep everyone informed of what he is working on - it might generate more interest in the Q40 / Q60. Plus someone might be willing to help. It really is such a shame that there was such a big fall out over the smsq/e licence and as a result devices developed for the Q60 are not necessarily engineered to work on other systems as well and yet the Q40 /Q60 can still benefit from improvements in SMSQ/e (even if Peter and some others are not willing to use the later versions of SMSQ/e). With such a small community, any divisions and arguments about Quanta are just more reason for people to forget about the QL entirely. We should all strive to work together, even if we don't always agree with one and other. No idea what happens if the application crashes whilst printing - does this happen very often on a QL nowadays I wonder (without needing the user to reset the system anyway)?? -- Rich Mellor RWAP Services 26 Oak Road, Shelfield, Walsall, West Midlands WS4 1RQ http://www.rwapservices.co.uk/ ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: [ql-users] Proforma Filter
On Thu, 25 Nov 2004 at 18:51:31, Rich Mellor wrote: (ref: [EMAIL PROTECTED]) use the later versions of SMSQ/e). With such a small community, any divisions and arguments about Quanta are just more reason for people to forget about the QL entirely. We should all strive to work together, even if we don't always agree with one and other. I 100% agree. It seems as the community gets smaller, the arguments and divisions get greater. Someone mention legal agreements. In my dealings over the years, with Astracom, Tony Price, the Minerva team (sale of Minerva), Laurence Reeves (Hermes/superHermes) and Tony Tebby, and not one formal document has been exchanged. We all simply agreed on what we were going to do, and that was that. ... and not one serious problem has arisen. Mind you I am years behind on working out what royalties are due, but my sales of Minerva, superHermes, and Romdisq have been negligible. ... so when I work things out, I don't think there will be much. I think I last made a small profit 5 years ago! Tony -- QBBS (QL fido BBS 2:252/67) +44(0)1442-828255 tony@surname.co.uk http://www.firshman.co.uk Voice: +44(0)1442-828254 Fax: +44(0)1442-828255 TF Services, 29 Longfield Road, TRING, Herts, HP23 4DG ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: [ql-users] Proforma Filter
Try telling Norman Dunbar nothing happens with his software! ;o) Dilwyn Jones Its on Dilwyn Jones PD CDROM If you dont have that let me know I can zip you a copy. All it does its create a device to which you can send print output. Does nothing with it. Tested it last night on QPC2 with QD and nothing happened so it must work! Duncan Neithercut ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: Re: [ql-users] Proforma Filter
On 25 Nov 2004 at 18:46, Rich Mellor wrote: If Proforma cannot output to these printers - is there much point in persuing this further as people will still be struggling to find printers which are compatible with the QL... I disagree (again...). I'd never buy a GDI printer, and there are many others that wouldn't (just think of Linux). There are so many pronters out there that have some kind of emulation( Laserjet, PCL etc...) . Well , if one told me what these were, I'd probably have done it already... Have a look at the standard Quill output for starters - Dilwyn will have a copy of the complete Epson ESC/P programming manual somewhere for download, but it is large. Text87 output is a lot more troublesome as it uses a large number of text formatting commands. No, let's keep things simple: what codes are used for bold on/off, underline, high, low? Yes it will... :-) However as you rightly say, the PFF device cannot open a directory device if the user wants to use a hard disk for temporary storage rather than space in memory... If he wants that, let him print to a file. Not really a modern version of a printer spooler if they have to (a) Print from their program (b) remember to call up the printer spooler program to actually see any output.. !! It is all too easy to see no output from the printer and straight away think - oops have I run out of paper / ink Or just completely forget to print out the files (eg. if you go away from the QL while it is doing a series of reports). a) above seems pretty logical to me... If they forget that, there'll be no print. 1 - Design the PFF device so that it can only have one file open to it at any time. Trrivial,since we're designing that device anyway. Isn't that just adding to the annoyance factor - Cannot print now cos something else is spooling... Can't print now 'cause something I'm already printing something else sounds quite logical to me. 2 - What happens TODAY when two apps try to print to par/ser at the same time? In what way is the user better/worse off, even if we don't implement n° 1 above ? Because it prevents the user getting annoyed by having to wait until one print task is finished - ...which is what they have to do today... they may not even know when it has finished and just have to keep on trying until the PFF device lets them (if printer in a different room, or filter is sending output to a postscript or HTML file rather than a physical printer). Isn't that really totally hypothetical? What if this punter wants to print 1000 files at the same time to 1000 different printers hanging off a super USB interface, some of which use Epson emulation, some others Postscript, yet others GDI and whatnot? Do we care if he can't do that? (...) Yes that is basically it. Ooops. (...) ASCII or files containing epson control codes - depends on the filters that are written for it really. Ok, same problem. What happens when someone wants to send a graphics dump? Just add a graphics filter. Just add a graphics filter. I'll let this stand as is. This FILTER THING is the most complex part of the program, but essential to ensure that the user can have a wide range of printing options available. A simple set of different filter progs called, if you want, from one printer spooler selctor would be enough for that. Yes it would - but the problem is how the PFF device and the filters communicate with the printer spooler. My understanding is that a THING is much better for this purpose. The best way I've found right now is to use pipes. The PFF device just puts everything into a pipe. Then we have a standard format that anything, filters, spoolers etc... can easily get at. A flow chart appears below of the way the system will work: Proforma Filter Flow-Chart (...) FILTER THING opens a channel to the temporary storage (pipe or file) and passes the channel ID back to the PFF device I'd be MOST interested in knowing how you'll handle that (see my other message to Joachim). See other response - suggest the FILTER THING opens a channel in readiness if this will be a problem. How many files are you going to keep open, since your hypothetical punter will want to print so many things at once? Wolfgang www.scp-paulet-lenerz.com ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: [ql-users] Proforma Filter
Wolfgang Lenerz wrote: On 25 Nov 2004 at 16:09, Joachim Van der Auwera wrote: Wolfgang Lenerz wrote: On 24 Nov 2004 at 20:21, Rich Mellor wrote: To to this within the device driver will be a non trivial task because you wil have to open a filing system channel from withing the open call of a non filing system device driver. That's what the FILTER THING would be very good for. Probably not (?). I presume the 'thing' use call would open the channel to the filing system. If you call the thing use routine from within the PFF channel open call (which is what I see proposed), you have the same problem as you will STILL be within the channel open call when using the 'thing'! Damned. Quite right of course. There is at least one person still thinking. So ok, let's try the very simple scheme first, forcing the user to switch filter job when switching intermediate protocol. At least it will not be difficult to write. Joachim ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: Re: [ql-users] Proforma Filter
On Thu, 25 Nov 2004 20:43:29 +0100, Wolfgang Lenerz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 25 Nov 2004 at 18:46, Rich Mellor wrote: If Proforma cannot output to these printers - is there much point in persuing this further as people will still be struggling to find printers which are compatible with the QL... I disagree (again...). I'd never buy a GDI printer, and there are many others that wouldn't (just think of Linux). There are so many pronters out there that have some kind of emulation( Laserjet, PCL etc...) The trouble is locating them - if these printers are so readily available at low prices, then what exactly are we developing this for as the QL can already output PCL 3 (just not the later versions). There is no list anywhere that I can find of modern printers which support ESC/P2 or direct text output. Don't forget that most Linux / Unix users now use some form of printing program for output - no idea whether that sends plain text and epson control codes to the printers or graphics..?? . Well , if one told me what these were, I'd probably have done it already... Have a look at the standard Quill output for starters - Dilwyn will have a copy of the complete Epson ESC/P programming manual somewhere for download, but it is large. Text87 output is a lot more troublesome as it uses a large number of text formatting commands. No, let's keep things simple: what codes are used for bold on/off, underline, high, low? Easiest thing is to print a test page from Quill as it includes some codes at the start which also need to be ignored ESC @ - reset printer ESC C n - set page length in lines CHR$(13) - Carriage Return CHR$(10) - Line Feed CHR$(12) - Form Feed ESC R n - Select international character set - used to translate £ symbol (n=0 is USA, n=3 is UK) ESC E - Bold on ESC F - Bold off ESC 4 - Italics on ESC 5 - Italics off ESC - n - Underline on / off (n=1,49 ON or 0,48 OFF) ESC S 0 and ESC S 48 - Superscript on ESC S 1 and ESC S 49 - Subscript on ESC T - turn off subscript / superscript Those are probably the main ones from memory - the translates are the problem areas. Yes it will... :-) However as you rightly say, the PFF device cannot open a directory device if the user wants to use a hard disk for temporary storage rather than space in memory... If he wants that, let him print to a file. If only all programs could output to a file - certainly accounts programs do not allow you to do this - as this is part of the security - prevents you from altering the reports by hand. Not really a modern version of a printer spooler if they have to (a) Print from their program (b) remember to call up the printer spooler program to actually see any output.. !! It is all too easy to see no output from the printer and straight away think - oops have I run out of paper / ink Or just completely forget to print out the files (eg. if you go away from the QL while it is doing a series of reports). a) above seems pretty logical to me... If they forget that, there'll be no print. Yes lol !! Chances are however, they will forget to launch the second print spooler program. 1 - Design the PFF device so that it can only have one file open to it at any time. Trrivial,since we're designing that device anyway. Isn't that just adding to the annoyance factor - Cannot print now cos something else is spooling... Can't print now 'cause something I'm already printing something else sounds quite logical to me. Yes but why should the QL be limited like this - it is much easier if you can add a job to a print queue and close the current program you are using. 2 - What happens TODAY when two apps try to print to par/ser at the same time? In what way is the user better/worse off, even if we don't implement n° 1 above ? Because it prevents the user getting annoyed by having to wait until one print task is finished - ...which is what they have to do today... they may not even know when it has finished and just have to keep on trying until the PFF device lets them (if printer in a different room, or filter is sending output to a postscript or HTML file rather than a physical printer). Isn't that really totally hypothetical? What if this punter wants to print 1000 files at the same time to 1000 different printers hanging off a super USB interface, some of which use Epson emulation, some others Postscript, yet others GDI and whatnot? Do we care if he can't do that? Not that hypothetical - if the user is using a complicated filter (eg. convert to postscript), then they could be waiting a while, without actually knowing what is going on in the background as there is no reassuring noise of the printer running. cut What happens when someone wants to send a graphics dump? Just add a graphics filter. Just add a graphics filter. I'll let this stand as is. I have no idea how easy it is to pass a PIC file to Proforma - Joachim?? This FILTER THING is the most complex part of the program,
Re: Re: [ql-users] Proforma Filter
Well , if one told me what these were, I'd probably have done it already... Have a look at the standard Quill output for starters - Dilwyn will have a copy of the complete Epson ESC/P programming manual somewhere for download, but it is large. Text87 output is a lot more troublesome as it uses a large number of text formatting commands. Too big to download or email, but can send them on a CD to you if required, just let me have the address you want it sent to. If you have broadband, it might be feasible for you to download them direct from Epson websites rather than wait for snail mail from me. They are PDF files, and the text can be extracted in the usual way, but it becomes an unformatted mess. I created a minimalist plain text Epson codes list but this is rather less comprehensive than the Epson PDFs. The text version is more easily emailed etc. -- Dilwyn Jones ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
