Re: [ql-users] was... Just an idea for a new Product.....
In a message dated 27/04/05 11:44:05 GMT Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: What would one do with a separately bought PTR_GEN and WMAN and no program which uses it, I wonder Not much - except from having non-destructable windows, probably nothing. I bought QPTR so that I could program my own PE applications. How can you do that without a manual? Anyway I found buying QPTR very much worth while. George ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: [ql-users] was... Just an idea for a new Product.....
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], jms1 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes clip Perhaps we may now understand why it is difficult for somebody to try the QL. What can we do to improve compatability so newcomers can try without help? Yes, interesting proposition. We have to take a good look at QDOS, the original OS, and the software for it; and then see what simple or more complicated work is needed to make the bridge with SMSQ and SMSQ/E. From the users point of view. Following on from this all the hardware add-ons and upgrades need to be looked at, and simple explanations of suitable paths to take to maintain or enhance performance. If this can be documented and collated then we can just point users to the signposts laid out, and the user can make their own decisions. Dilwyn Jones already has some quite excellent material on his website that describes the history and development of the QL. Roy Wood has begun a series in QL Today which is describing the where with all of the various set ups and paths that QL development has followed. So in the end some users may choose just to stay with QDOS and get the best benefit from it, others may choose to bridge across between QDOS and SMSQ benefiting from both. Others may choose to be entirely SMSQ/E, and beyond. Whatever ... a commonality will be established. -- Malcolm Cadman ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: [ql-users] was... Just an idea for a new Product.....
What would one do with a separately bought PTR_GEN and WMAN and no program which uses it, I wonder Not much - except from having non-destructable windows, probably nothing. Eh? Use one of the many freeware etc programs which need PE but don't usually supply PE with it of course - or am I missing the point of that remark? Dilwyn Jones -- Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.9.18 - Release Date: 19/04/2005 ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: [ql-users] was... Just an idea for a new Product.....
- Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, April 26, 2005 10:08 AM Subject: Re: [ql-users] was... Just an idea for a new Product. In a message dated 26/04/05 01:33:54 GMT Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Remember that i'm still using Qdos. Has Turbo been kept compatible with that, or does it only support SBasic and SMSQ/E? If it is not compatible what is the most recent version of turbo that is compatible with my system? Whenever a new version of Turbo is produced I test it on an AH rom with trump card as well as Q60 with SMSQE. I have not done that yet with v4g21 since there may be errors still to be found and reported. However, when v4.21 is finally produced it will have to work on my AH rom. George ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm If we do not make our software backward compatable we automatically elimate at least half of the QL community according to the Quanta Survey. Unless the new features are required for the operation of a program I consider it is good programming practice to make software compatable with as many versions as possible. ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: [ql-users] was... Just an idea for a new Product.....
In a message dated 26/04/05 13:28:16 GMT Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: For me, the silly thing in past years was that you could buy programs like QPAC2 or QD which happened to include Pointer Environment but AFAIK you could never buy Pointer Environment by itself! H! I now wonder what I bought from Jochen when he sent me QPTR. I thought that was the Pointer Environment by itself. What I got was the QPTR Manual (now much used), a set of Qmac macros for programming assembler pointer programs using Qmac, QPTR extensions for programming Pointer Environment in SuperBASIC and some demo SuperBASIC programs. George ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: Re: [ql-users] was... Just an idea for a new Product.....
Excellent. If it it will work with that, it'll probably work with anything. Does anyone still use AH, when Minny is freely available? Jeremy Not many with AH, but plenty with the next two common versions (JM and JS). My Aurora has a JM ROM and my QL+Gold Card have a switchable JM and Minerva via a little ROM sitchboard I bought from Syd Humphries and some of the lads at an East Anglia QL group some years ago. Some emulators such as QLay and QemuLator will let you choose which ROm version to install, so here too you can have a choice. The various ROM images are available on my website for download in countries where this is allowed. Some emulators include a freely distributable version of Minerva Mk1 (I think Minnie mk 2 is dependent on the Mk ii hardware so could not be used as an emulator image anyway). Software like Turbo works across all ROM versions anyway, and fixes the majority of problems in early Sinclair ROM versions in compiled programs so they work consistently across all ROM versions. Minerva is probably the best ROM version for a QL, while the most common version is probably JS. AH, JM and MG ROMs (and the national variants in JS or MG) are in fairly common usage. An AH ROM has a few bugs in the code which may cause a few minor problems when writing and running SuperBASIC programs, but these are not too significant and have been well documented by Simon Goodwin and Mark Knight in QL magazines in the past (I wonder if there's any interest in trying to get permission from Simon and Mark to make these bugs docs publically available to help people write BASIC programs which avoid nasties in given ROM versions and so work consistently interpreted on all ROM versions?) Dilwyn Jones ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: [ql-users] was... Just an idea for a new Product.....
H! I now wonder what I bought from Jochen when he sent me QPTR. I thought that was the Pointer Environment by itself. What I got was the QPTR Manual (now much used), a set of Qmac macros for programming assembler pointer programs using Qmac, QPTR extensions for programming Pointer Environment in SuperBASIC and some demo SuperBASIC programs. Well, QPTR *WAS* the manual, the demo and macros on the disk plus the extensions to program the Pointer Environment from BASIC. :-) PTR_GEN, WMAN and HOT_REXT, the so-called Extended Environment, always came with every JMS program which required it (QD, Fifi, QSpread ...) (visually free to the customer, although I paid Tony Tebby royalties for the EE for every new sale, until recently, when he decided he did not want it anymore) What would one do with a separately bought PTR_GEN and WMAN and no program which uses it, I wonder Not much - except from having non-destructable windows, probably nothing. Jochen -- Jochen Merz Software - Kaiser-Wilhelm-Str. 302 - D-47169 Duisburg Tel. +49-(0)203-502011 Fax +49-(0)203-502012 Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Homepage: http://SMSQ.J-M-S.COM ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: Re: [ql-users] was... Just an idea for a new Product.....
Apologies if this is duplication Roy, the Tesco Webmail beastie timed out on me while I was trying to send the first copy and I don't think it got through. I've been given so much advice that my head is spinning. In one email I was advised to by QPAC2, but was then told that its the same as the pointer environment I already have. But I thought that it comes bundled with SMSQ/E, so if I were to buy that I wouldn't need QPAC2 as well, surely? Ok some of the advice was maybe not quite worded concisely. The Pointer Environment is the three files PTR_GEN, WMAN, and HOT_REXT. These form the basis of the extended system and are, as you said, bundled into SMSQ/E in an extended form. QPC2 is a collection of system handling routines including file management and job management. The Pointer environment files are now freely distributable and are backwardly compatible. Roy, I don't think this type of query can be answered too often. Could you perhaps do something for your beginners series along these lines: 1. QPAC2 is not the same as pointer environment. 2. QPAC2 is not a new version of QPAC1. They are both completely different products. 3. Pointer Environment is bundled as part of the QPAC1 and QPAC2 packages. 4. PE is basically ptr_gen. Extended Environment is all three (ptr_gen, wman + hot_rext). The equivalent is built into SMSQ/E (but not QXL SMSQ). 5. Although QPAC2 is desceneded from QRAM, QRAM is now probably so out of date that only older software fromt he 1980s (QRAM's era) would run on QRAM's version of PE). 6. What PE actually does (extended console driver, on screen pointer, save and restore windows etc) as distinct from what QPAC2 does (menus, things, buttons etc). You can probably write that up much clearly than I did. And this is something I could probably add to the little list of short articles I keep promising to write for Quanta). Dilwyn Jones I know my memory isn't as complete as it was, but I'm pretty sure that I bought Qram, which just happened to have the pointer environment bundled with it. QPAC2 also included the pointer environment, but they were different products; but I don't remember what differentiated them. (we are talking 1987 here after all). QRam was a precursor to most of this. -- Roy Wood Q Branch. 20 Locks Hill, Portslade, Sussex.BN41 2LB Tel: +44 (0) 1273 386030fax: +44 (0) 1273 430501 skype : royqbranch web : www.qbranch.demon.co.uk ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: Re: [ql-users] was... Just an idea for a new Product.....
Oops. That was meant to be forwarded to Roy not replied to this list (Tesco Webmail strikes again). But as it ended up here, suggest adding difference between QPTR and PE and all the other terms too! Dilwyn Jones From: Dilwyn Jones [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 2005/04/27 Wed PM 01:00:46 GMT To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Re: [ql-users] was... Just an idea for a new Product. Apologies if this is duplication Roy, the Tesco Webmail beastie timed out on me while I was trying to send the first copy and I don't think it got through. I've been given so much advice that my head is spinning. In one email I was advised to by QPAC2, but was then told that its the same as the pointer environment I already have. But I thought that it comes bundled with SMSQ/E, so if I were to buy that I wouldn't need QPAC2 as well, surely? Ok some of the advice was maybe not quite worded concisely. The Pointer Environment is the three files PTR_GEN, WMAN, and HOT_REXT. These form the basis of the extended system and are, as you said, bundled into SMSQ/E in an extended form. QPC2 is a collection of system handling routines including file management and job management. The Pointer environment files are now freely distributable and are backwardly compatible. Roy, I don't think this type of query can be answered too often. Could you perhaps do something for your beginners series along these lines: 1. QPAC2 is not the same as pointer environment. 2. QPAC2 is not a new version of QPAC1. They are both completely different products. 3. Pointer Environment is bundled as part of the QPAC1 and QPAC2 packages. 4. PE is basically ptr_gen. Extended Environment is all three (ptr_gen, wman + hot_rext). The equivalent is built into SMSQ/E (but not QXL SMSQ). 5. Although QPAC2 is desceneded from QRAM, QRAM is now probably so out of date that only older software fromt he 1980s (QRAM's era) would run on QRAM's version of PE). 6. What PE actually does (extended console driver, on screen pointer, save and restore windows etc) as distinct from what QPAC2 does (menus, things, buttons etc). You can probably write that up much clearly than I did. And this is something I could probably add to the little list of short articles I keep promising to write for Quanta). Dilwyn Jones I know my memory isn't as complete as it was, but I'm pretty sure that I bought Qram, which just happened to have the pointer environment bundled with it. QPAC2 also included the pointer environment, but they were different products; but I don't remember what differentiated them. (we are talking 1987 here after all). QRam was a precursor to most of this. -- Roy Wood Q Branch. 20 Locks Hill, Portslade, Sussex.BN41 2LB Tel: +44 (0) 1273 386030fax: +44 (0) 1273 430501 skype : royqbranch web : www.qbranch.demon.co.uk ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: Re: [ql-users] was... Just an idea for a new Product.....
For me, the silly thing in past years was that you could buy programs like QPAC2 or QD which happened to include Pointer Environment but AFAIK you could never buy Pointer Environment by itself! H! I now wonder what I bought from Jochen when he sent me QPTR. I thought that was the Pointer Environment by itself. What I got was the QPTR Manual (now much used), a set of Qmac macros for programming assembler pointer programs using Qmac, QPTR extensions for programming Pointer Environment in SuperBASIC and some demo SuperBASIC programs. Packages like QPAC2, QPAC1, QPTR, Easyptr etc etc always came with pointer environment included on the disk. This blurred in users' minds the distinctions between all the terms. QPTR was the programming reference guide book and the associated files on the disk which came with it. This happened to include pointer environment. What I'm getting at was that the terms QPTR and Pointer Environmetn are often used synonymously by programmers and users, but in fact are not quite the same thing. Technically, QPTR is the user programming guide and software, whereas pointer environment itself is the extended console driver, on screen pointer, saving and restoring windows on the screen. Although we usually know what everyone means, the terminology does occasionally get confused making it harder to work out what a user means by a problem running my program with QPTR or QPAC2. My program won't work with QPAC2 results in the question Does it work with just pointer environment. No it doesn't that's what I just said. But they're not the same thing... What do you mean, I thought they were?!?! and so it goes on. Dilwyn Jones ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: [ql-users] was... Just an idea for a new Product.....
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Dilwyn Jones [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes SNIP Roy, I don't think this type of query can be answered too often. Could you perhaps do something for your beginners series along these lines: I had planned to do something on 'Essential Programs and Very Useful Ones' I am not sure if this should come after the next section on hard drives and before the one on writing a BOOT file or whether I should put the BOOT file bit next. -- Roy Wood Q Branch. 20 Locks Hill, Portslade, Sussex.BN41 2LB Tel: +44 (0) 1273 386030fax: +44 (0) 1273 430501 skype : royqbranch web : www.qbranch.demon.co.uk ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: Re: [ql-users] was... Just an idea for a new Product.....
- Original Message - From: Dilwyn Jones [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, April 26, 2005 1:27 PM Subject: Re: Re: [ql-users] was... Just an idea for a new Product. Some platforms actually offer the best of both worlds to some degree. Q40 and Q60 users can use SMSQ/E of QDOS CLassic. Aurora and QL users can choose between SMSQ/E and QDOS (bearing in mind that SMSQ/E will not work on a machine with only 128K of memory). There is a version of QemuLator which can run either a QDOS ROM image or the Gold Card version of SMSQ/E. QPC users can only use SMSQ/E, while QLAY, UQLX and Amiga QDOS users can only use QDOS for example. Reading back through the above and realising quite how complex I've made it sound, I hope I haven't caused too much confusion. It wasn't meant to be a rant, honest guv! Dilwyn Jones ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm Perhaps we may now understand why it is difficult for somebody to try the QL. What can we do to improve compatability so newcomers can try without help? ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: [ql-users] was... Just an idea for a new Product.....
- Original Message - From: Roy wood [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, April 26, 2005 6:06 PM Subject: Re: [ql-users] was... Just an idea for a new Product. Ok some of the advice was maybe not quite worded concisely. The Pointer Environment is the three files PTR_GEN, WMAN, and HOT_REXT. These form the basis of the extended system and are, as you said, bundled into SMSQ/E in an extended form. QPC2 is a collection of system handling routines including file management and job management. The Pointer environment files are now freely distributable and are backwardly compatible. -- Where can you download them? Roy Wood Q Branch. 20 Locks Hill, Portslade, Sussex.BN41 2LB Tel: +44 (0) 1273 386030fax: +44 (0) 1273 430501 skype : royqbranch web : www.qbranch.demon.co.uk ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: [ql-users] was... Just an idea for a new Product.....
In a message dated 26/04/05 01:33:54 GMT Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Remember that i'm still using Qdos. Has Turbo been kept compatible with that, or does it only support SBasic and SMSQ/E? If it is not compatible what is the most recent version of turbo that is compatible with my system? Whenever a new version of Turbo is produced I test it on an AH rom with trump card as well as Q60 with SMSQE. I have not done that yet with v4g21 since there may be errors still to be found and reported. However, when v4.21 is finally produced it will have to work on my AH rom. George ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: [ql-users] was... Just an idea for a new Product.....
Jeremy Taffel wrote: I've been given so much advice that my head is spinning. In one email I was advised to by QPAC2, but was then told that its the same as the pointer environment I already have. No, PE and QPAC2 are not one and the same. QPAC2 is *based* on the PE, though. As the PE is inbuilt into SMSQ/E, you don't need the ptr_gen, wman etc files there. QPAC2 itself is more a conglomerate of utilities, like a file manager, job manager etc., so one could say it's a successor of the QRAM utility. Up to now, I've assumed that all the developments in the major apps (the above, turboptr, etc ) apply, only to SMSQ/E, and to ensure compatibility with QDOS, I have continued using my old versions. Most things still run under QDOS. Marcel ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: [ql-users] was... Just an idea for a new Product.....
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: However, when v4.21 is finally produced it will have to work on my AH rom. Excellent. If it it will work with that, it'll probably work with anything. Does anyone still use AH, when Minny is freely available? Jeremy ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: [ql-users] was... Just an idea for a new Product.....
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes In a message dated 26/04/05 01:33:54 GMT Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Remember that i'm still using Qdos. Has Turbo been kept compatible with that, or does it only support SBasic and SMSQ/E? If it is not compatible what is the most recent version of turbo that is compatible with my system? Whenever a new version of Turbo is produced I test it on an AH rom with trump card as well as Q60 with SMSQE. I have not done that yet with v4g21 since there may be errors still to be found and reported. However, when v4.21 is finally produced it will have to work on my AH rom. Yes, thanks to this development work on Turbo it is incorporating extra functionality. It is compatible with QDOS / SuperBasic and SMSQ/E / Sbasic, so the generic term has now become Sbasic, for convenience. -- Malcolm Cadman ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: Re: [ql-users] was... Just an idea for a new Product.....
Dilwyn Jones writes: QPAC2 is NOT as many assume a more recent version of QPAC1! But strangely enough QPAC2 is a successor to QRAM for all practical purposes. However, most Qram utilities no longer work with the versions of PE that came with and after Qpac2. The general advice seems to be to decide if you want maximum compatibility with older QL software, stick with QDOS, or if you want the benefits of the new facilities available under SMSQ/E you will need to go down that route. But only if you want maximum compatibility. Most old programs will run, or can be made to run, under PE. It is often not PE which is the problem with older programs, rather their reliance on microdrives, or a reliance on fixed locations for the screen or systems variables (ie poor programming practises). Also upping the speed can render some old programs incompatible. Apart from those emulators that are designed to be hardware compatible with the black box, one of the most versatile platforms to run old software, IMHO, is QPC2. But it has the added advantage of running the bleeding edge stuff too. Per ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: [ql-users] was... Just an idea for a new Product.....
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Jeremy Taffel [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes SNIP Remember that i'm still using Qdos. Has Turbo been kept compatible with that, or does it only support SBasic and SMSQ/E? If it is not compatible what is the most recent version of turbo that is compatible with my system? I've been given so much advice that my head is spinning. In one email I was advised to by QPAC2, but was then told that its the same as the pointer environment I already have. But I thought that it comes bundled with SMSQ/E, so if I were to buy that I wouldn't need QPAC2 as well, surely? Ok some of the advice was maybe not quite worded concisely. The Pointer Environment is the three files PTR_GEN, WMAN, and HOT_REXT. These form the basis of the extended system and are, as you said, bundled into SMSQ/E in an extended form. QPC2 is a collection of system handling routines including file management and job management. The Pointer environment files are now freely distributable and are backwardly compatible. I know my memory isn't as complete as it was, but I'm pretty sure that I bought Qram, which just happened to have the pointer environment bundled with it. QPAC2 also included the pointer environment, but they were different products; but I don't remember what differentiated them. (we are talking 1987 here after all). QRam was a precursor to most of this. -- Roy Wood Q Branch. 20 Locks Hill, Portslade, Sussex.BN41 2LB Tel: +44 (0) 1273 386030fax: +44 (0) 1273 430501 skype : royqbranch web : www.qbranch.demon.co.uk ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: [ql-users] was... Just an idea for a new Product.....
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], P Witte [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes The general advice seems to be to decide if you want maximum compatibility with older QL software, stick with QDOS, or if you want the benefits of the new facilities available under SMSQ/E you will need to go down that route. But only if you want maximum compatibility. Most old programs will run, or can be made to run, under PE. It is often not PE which is the problem with older programs, rather their reliance on microdrives, or a reliance on fixed locations for the screen or systems variables (ie poor programming practises). Also upping the speed can render some old programs incompatible. Apart from those emulators that are designed to be hardware compatible with the black box, one of the most versatile platforms to run old software, IMHO, is QPC2. But it has the added advantage of running the bleeding edge stuff too. Does anyone have a list of 'old programs' written for QDOS that do not run under the PE ? If there is a known list, then some action may taken. -- Malcolm Cadman ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: [ql-users] was... Just an idea for a new Product.....
Try Turbo v4g21 when it goes on the site sometime this week. If it still needs up grading George will listen. ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm Remember that i'm still using Qdos. Has Turbo been kept compatible with that, or does it only support SBasic and SMSQ/E? If it is not compatible what is the most recent version of turbo that is compatible with my system? I've been given so much advice that my head is spinning. In one email I was advised to by QPAC2, but was then told that its the same as the pointer environment I already have. But I thought that it comes bundled with SMSQ/E, so if I were to buy that I wouldn't need QPAC2 as well, surely? I know my memory isn't as complete as it was, but I'm pretty sure that I bought Qram, which just happened to have the pointer environment bundled with it. QPAC2 also included the pointer environment, but they were different products; but I don't remember what differentiated them. (we are talking 1987 here after all). While on the subject, what's the most up to date version of the C compiler to run under QDOS? Up to now, I've assumed that all the developments in the major apps (the above, turboptr, etc ) apply, only to SMSQ/E, and to ensure compatibility with QDOS, I have continued using my old versions. Jeremy ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
