Re: [Ql-Users] IDE versus SD card
I would also like to see a SD card interface for the QL. We are in 2011 after all. Another thing I like about an SD card I/F is that it would be possible to develop a simple accelerator for the unexpended QL without the need for it to support floppy interface or hard drive. A bit like the brand new ACA amiga accelerators for the Amiga. I just bought a 56 MHz version, not because I realy need it, but because its fun to buy new hardware when you are a nerd :-) This makes me think, would it be difficult to design a simple interface that allow any (or some) Amiga accelerator card to be used on a QL? Some 32 bit to 8 bit translation circuits for the data bus and other stuff for timing and synchronisation. Just an idea. François On 2011-02-04, at 14:15, Ralf Reköndt ralf.rekoe...@t-online.de wrote: Dilwyn Jones wrote: I vaguely remember that Tony Tebby's drivers for RomDisq from TF Services might have had something like this. Tony? I am willing to spend an amount for TT, if he is willing to derive the ROMdisque driver for the SD Cards. I'll hope, others are also willing to do so. I am sure, he still has the source code (as I knowhe always keeps everything!) Cheers...Ralf ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: [Ql-Users] IDE versus SD card
On Fri, Feb 4, 2011 at 5:02 AM, Peter pg...@q40.de wrote: Hi, data transfer from an SD card takes 0.4 microsecond per Byte in the most simple mode, while the minimum cycle of the QL bus is 1.0 microsecond. So both IDE and SD card are faster than the QL bus. SD cards are smaller and cheaper than IDE drives. Both offer more size than a QL filesystem can use. If a fast SD card interface driver for the QL was here: Where would be the point in IDE for the QL? Apart from being too laid-back to copy data to SD card once :-) I understand keeping the microdrive for antiquarianism, because it was part of the original QL. But that doesn't count for IDE. Otherwise it would be quite simple for me to implement. All the best Peter Everything you say is true. Common sense. The main problem you have to overcome is 25 years of inertia. People are familiar with hard drives. Also, people seem to think SD cars are dinky like microdrives. The secondary problem is, the format and commands should be universal and should be used broadly in all new hardware - are you interested in licensing your design and code to anyone else? :) Dave ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: [Ql-Users] IDE versus SD card
data transfer from an SD card takes 0.4 microsecond per Byte in the most simple mode, while the minimum cycle of the QL bus is 1.0 microsecond. So both IDE and SD card are faster than the QL bus. SD cards are smaller and cheaper than IDE drives. Both offer more size than a QL filesystem can use. If a fast SD card interface driver for the QL was here: Where would be the point in IDE for the QL? Apart from being too laid-back to copy data to SD card once :-) I understand keeping the microdrive for antiquarianism, because it was part of the original QL. But that doesn't count for IDE. Otherwise it would be quite simple for me to implement. All the best Peter This is a good point. When I made the comment about a new Qubide not being of much use because hard disk drives in IDE format were not available much nowadays, I didn't take into account the availability of flash card interfaces (many of which offer quite high capacity of storage at good prices now) and IDE conversion leads and kits. The idea of installing your SD/MMC card interface in one of the two microdrive slots is actually quite attractive - using the MDV slot in the QL case to insert a modern memory card with a GB or more instead of a 100K MDV would instantly modernise the look and feel of the QL! Plus of course the memory card could be unplugged and files transferred to another system when required.Conceivably, those like myself with many QL CDs could probably copy the files off those to a SD card and just plug in the CD required if software was available which could read a QXL.WIN (e.g. Duncan's QCDEZE could be modified perhaps to work with your interface?) Good luck with this project Peter, if you do decide to go ahead with it. Dilwyn Jones ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: [Ql-Users] IDE versus SD card
--- On Fri, 4/2/11, Peter pg...@q40.de wrote: From: Peter pg...@q40.de Subject: [Ql-Users] IDE versus SD card To: ql-us...@q-v-d.com Date: Friday, 4 February, 2011, 11:02 Hi, data transfer from an SD card takes 0.4 microsecond per Byte in the most simple mode, while the minimum cycle of the QL bus is 1.0 microsecond. So both IDE and SD card are faster than the QL bus. SD cards are smaller and cheaper than IDE drives. Both offer more size than a QL filesystem can use. If a fast SD card interface driver for the QL was here: Where would be the point in IDE for the QL? Apart from being too laid-back to copy data to SD card once :-) I understand keeping the microdrive for antiquarianism, because it was part of the original QL. But that doesn't count for IDE. Otherwise it would be quite simple for me to implement. All the best Peter ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm On my Acorn A3010 I use a compact flash to ide adapter which handles all of the technical stuff. The Acorn just treats it as a normal ide hard drive. http://www.zen70509.zen.co.uk/acorn/cf2.jpg Peter. ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: [Ql-Users] IDE versus SD card
Plastic wrote, on 4/Feb/11 11:31 | Feb4: snip Everything you say is true. Common sense. The main problem you have to overcome is 25 years of inertia. People are familiar with hard drives. Also, people seem to think SD cars are dinky like microdrives. Oh what a *brilliant* misprint. Dinky cars indeed (8-)# Now a QL interface in a toy Morris Minor would be quite something. Tony -- QBBS (QL fido BBS 2:257/67) +44(0)1442-828255 t...@firshman.co.uk http://firshman.co.uk Voice: +44(0)1442-828254 Fax: +44(0)1442-828255 Skype: tonyfirshman TF Services, 29 Longfield Road, TRING, Herts, HP23 4DG ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: [Ql-Users] IDE versus SD card
Lee Privett wrote, on 4/Feb/11 13:19 | Feb4: Plastic wrote, on 4/Feb/11 11:31 | Feb4: snip Everything you say is true. Common sense. The main problem you have to overcome is 25 years of inertia. People are familiar with hard drives. Also, people seem to think SD cars are dinky like microdrives. Oh what a *brilliant* misprint. Dinky cars indeed (8-)# Now a QL interface in a toy Morris Minor would be quite something. http://www.qlforum.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=12t=38p=364#p364 scroll down for your Dinky suggestion and http://www.qlforum.co.uk/download/file.php?id=30mode=view Have you no *real* work to get on with today (8-)# and I want one of those dinkydrives. Tony -- QBBS (QL fido BBS 2:257/67) +44(0)1442-828255 t...@firshman.co.uk http://firshman.co.uk Voice: +44(0)1442-828254 Fax: +44(0)1442-828255 Skype: tonyfirshman TF Services, 29 Longfield Road, TRING, Herts, HP23 4DG ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: [Ql-Users] IDE versus SD card
Yes apparently, but dont you think this looks even better? http://www.qlforum.co.uk/download/file.php?id=33mode=view Lee Privett - Sent from my Laptop running XP but emulating the QL using QPC2 Have you no *real* work to get on with today (8-)# and I want one of those dinkydrives. Tony -- QBBS (QL fido BBS 2:257/67) +44(0)1442-828255 t...@firshman.co.uk http://firshman.co.uk Voice: +44(0)1442-828254 Fax: +44(0)1442-828255 Skype: tonyfirshman TF Services, 29 Longfield Road, TRING, Herts, HP23 4DG ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: [Ql-Users] IDE versus SD card
Plastic wrote, on 4/Feb/11 11:31 | Feb4: snip Everything you say is true. Common sense. The main problem you have to overcome is 25 years of inertia. People are familiar with hard drives. Also, people seem to think SD cars are dinky like microdrives. Oh what a *brilliant* misprint. Dinky cars indeed (8-)# Now a QL interface in a toy Morris Minor would be quite something. http://www.qlforum.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=12t=38p=364#p364 scroll down for your Dinky suggestion and http://www.qlforum.co.uk/download/file.php?id=30mode=view Have you no *real* work to get on with today (8-)# and I want one of those dinkydrives. Tony He he, nice one, could turn out to be one of the most popular QL add-ons yet! :-)) Dilwyn Jones ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: [Ql-Users] IDE versus SD card
- Original Message - From: Dilwyn Jones dil...@evans1511.fsnet.co.uk To: ql-us...@q-v-d.com Sent: Friday, February 04, 2011 11:55 AM Subject: Re: [Ql-Users] IDE versus SD card data transfer from an SD card takes 0.4 microsecond per Byte in the most simple mode, while the minimum cycle of the QL bus is 1.0 microsecond. So both IDE and SD card are faster than the QL bus. SD cards are smaller and cheaper than IDE drives. Both offer more size than a QL filesystem can use. If a fast SD card interface driver for the QL was here: Where would be the point in IDE for the QL? Apart from being too laid-back to copy data to SD card once :-) I understand keeping the microdrive for antiquarianism, because it was part of the original QL. But that doesn't count for IDE. Otherwise it would be quite simple for me to implement. All the best Peter This is a good point. When I made the comment about a new Qubide not being of much use because hard disk drives in IDE format were not available much nowadays, I didn't take into account the availability of flash card interfaces (many of which offer quite high capacity of storage at good prices now) and IDE conversion leads and kits. The idea of installing your SD/MMC card interface in one of the two microdrive slots is actually quite attractive - using the MDV slot in the QL case to insert a modern memory card with a GB or more instead of a 100K MDV would instantly modernise the look and feel of the QL! Plus of course the memory card could be unplugged and files transferred to another system when required.Conceivably, those like myself with many QL CDs could probably copy the files off those to a SD card and just plug in the CD required if software was available which could read a QXL.WIN (e.g. Duncan's QCDEZE could be modified perhaps to work with your interface?) Good luck with this project Peter, if you do decide to go ahead with it. Dilwyn Jones How many erase/re-write cycles is each bit in modern flash memory good for nowadays? SD cards would be great for storing libraries of programs and data that don't change frequently, but what about using them, for example, for frequently changing temporary files generated by running programs (the sort of thing we should probably use RAMdisks for given enough RAM)? Do hard-disks still have the advantage there? Ian. ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: [Ql-Users] IDE versus SD card
Ian, How many erase/re-write cycles is each bit in modern flash memory good for nowadays? SD cards would be great for storing libraries of programs and data that don't change frequently, but what about using them, for example, for frequently changing temporary files generated by running programs (the sort of thing we should probably use RAMdisks for given enough RAM)? Do hard-disks still have the advantage there? A lot of them nowadays have load balancing code in the hardware. If it notices a hot spot, it reorganises the data to avoid that hot spot. Cheaper ones, probably done. I have a 256 Mb From Crucial which I wrote about many years ago in QL Toady - around 2002 or 2003, it still works and is in use daily. I continually read and rewrite it. It is my own QL On a Stick with QPC and two hard drives, plus it contans my subversion repositories for my QL Toady articles, my work on Firebird Database Docs, programming projects and so on. It also gets quite well hammered as a general purpose floppy disc as I copy stuff from my laptop to my desktop using it, and delete the files afterwards. So, buy your cards from a reputable source, pay a little extra for them, and you should be fine. I recommend http://www.crucial.com/uk - service is excellent and quaility is likewise, excellent. Cheers, Norman. -- Norman Dunbar Dunbar IT Consultants Ltd Registered address: Thorpe House 61 Richardshaw Lane Pudsey West Yorkshire United Kingdom LS28 7EL Company Number: 05132767 ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: [Ql-Users] IDE versus SD card
A lot of them nowadays have load balancing code in the hardware. If it notices a hot spot, it reorganises the data to avoid that hot spot. Cheaper ones, probably done. I vaguely remember that Tony Tebby's drivers for RomDisq from TF Services might have had something like this. Tony? (Guess my memory's good at remembering vague things but ain't what it used to be for the details of those things!) Dilwyn Jones ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: [Ql-Users] IDE versus SD card
Also, Tony, how feasible is it to repurpose the RomDisq work for use with removable flash-type storage like CompactFlash or SDHC? Dave On Fri, Feb 4, 2011 at 10:05 AM, Dilwyn Jones dil...@evans1511.fsnet.co.ukwrote: A lot of them nowadays have load balancing code in the hardware. If it notices a hot spot, it reorganises the data to avoid that hot spot. Cheaper ones, probably done. I vaguely remember that Tony Tebby's drivers for RomDisq from TF Services might have had something like this. Tony? (Guess my memory's good at remembering vague things but ain't what it used to be for the details of those things!) Dilwyn Jones ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: [Ql-Users] IDE versus SD card
Norman Dunbar wrote, on 4/Feb/11 15:46 | Feb4: Ian, How many erase/re-write cycles is each bit in modern flash memory good for nowadays? SD cards would be great for storing libraries of programs and data that don't change frequently, but what about using them, for example, for frequently changing temporary files generated by running programs (the sort of thing we should probably use RAMdisks for given enough RAM)? Do hard-disks still have the advantage there? A lot of them nowadays have load balancing code in the hardware. If it notices a hot spot, it reorganises the data to avoid that hot spot. Cheaper ones, probably done. I agree. Romdisq is 100,000 writes, but it too has load balancing. I have had very very few back with failed chips. The key is not filling it with data. I wonder as well if the hardware is clever enough to *not* write out unchanged bits. That would save a *lot* of wear. I have a 256 Mb From Crucial which I wrote about many years ago in QL Toady - around 2002 or 2003, it still works and is in use daily. I continually read and rewrite it. It is my own QL On a Stick with QPC and two hard drives, plus it contans my subversion repositories for my QL Toady articles, my work on Firebird Database Docs, programming projects and so on. It also gets quite well hammered as a general purpose floppy disc as I copy stuff from my laptop to my desktop using it, and delete the files afterwards. Deletion of course is only the directory entry. So, buy your cards from a reputable source, pay a little extra for them, and you should be fine. I recommend http://www.crucial.com/uk - service is excellent and quaility is likewise, excellent. .. and of course price is high (8-)# worldnews.com uses a 1Tb SSD raid 5 (based on flash of course) for its index store, and works very well. It is very low power and hugely fast reading. This mighty server with 40GB ram and 12 processors uses only 1.5 amps. Mind you it cost £23,000! Tony -- QBBS (QL fido BBS 2:257/67) +44(0)1442-828255 t...@firshman.co.uk http://firshman.co.uk Voice: +44(0)1442-828254 Fax: +44(0)1442-828255 Skype: tonyfirshman TF Services, 29 Longfield Road, TRING, Herts, HP23 4DG ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: [Ql-Users] IDE versus SD card
Dilwyn Jones wrote, on 4/Feb/11 16:05 | Feb4: A lot of them nowadays have load balancing code in the hardware. If it notices a hot spot, it reorganises the data to avoid that hot spot. Cheaper ones, probably done. I vaguely remember that Tony Tebby's drivers for RomDisq from TF Services might have had something like this. Tony? (Guess my memory's good at remembering vague things but ain't what it used to be for the details of those things!) I think it does yes, but in the chip itself. I am not sure though. Tony -- QBBS (QL fido BBS 2:257/67) +44(0)1442-828255 t...@firshman.co.uk http://firshman.co.uk Voice: +44(0)1442-828254 Fax: +44(0)1442-828255 Skype: tonyfirshman TF Services, 29 Longfield Road, TRING, Herts, HP23 4DG ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: [Ql-Users] IDE versus SD card
Plastic wrote, on 4/Feb/11 16:50 | Feb4: Also, Tony, how feasible is it to repurpose the RomDisq work for use with removable flash-type storage like CompactFlash or SDHC? I have no documentation on Tony Tebby's driver. Of course anyone is welcome to contact him. Stuart Honeyball wrote the code to read/write to the flash chips, but that is I guess not relevant. Tony -- QBBS (QL fido BBS 2:257/67) +44(0)1442-828255 t...@firshman.co.uk http://firshman.co.uk Voice: +44(0)1442-828254 Fax: +44(0)1442-828255 Skype: tonyfirshman TF Services, 29 Longfield Road, TRING, Herts, HP23 4DG ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: [Ql-Users] IDE versus SD card
Dilwyn Jones wrote: I vaguely remember that Tony Tebby's drivers for RomDisq from TF Services might have had something like this. Tony? I am willing to spend an amount for TT, if he is willing to derive the ROMdisque driver for the SD Cards. I'll hope, others are also willing to do so. I am sure, he still has the source code (as I knowhe always keeps everything!) Cheers...Ralf ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
