Re: [qooxdoo-devel] Format UTC dates

2010-12-15 Thread Marius Austerschulte 
I see my problem still hasn't become clear so I'll try again:
My original question was whether it is possible to format the UTC
representation of a date using the qx.util.DateFormat.format method. The
background of my question is: I want to store date/time patterns inside the
.po translation files so that I can easily localize date formats. I know now
that this is *not* possible with the current DateFormat implementation for
the reasons I pointed out earlier.

An alternative would be to use the TimezoneDate class. But in contrast to
qooxdoo's DateFormat class, the TimezoneDate class doesn't support date and
time patterns (
http://download.oracle.com/javase/1.4.2/docs/api/java/text/SimpleDateFormat.html).
You have to pass a formatting function which doesn't help me in this case.

The whole problem would be solved if the DateFormat class was able to return
a formatted string of the UTC representation of a date object. With the
TimezoneDate class or the Date class's native setUTC... methods you could
easily transform a date to *any* desired time and pass it to
DateFormat.format. Perhaps I will open a bug report on that matter.

By the way: Of course UTC and UTC-0 are actually the same time. With UTC I
mean UTC-0. But the term "timezone" in my view refers to an area on the
earth's surface. And as you know the offset from UTC within that area may
change during the year (daylight saving time). So a timezone might have the
time UTC-0 in winter and UTC-1 in summer.

Thanks for your patience ;)


2010/12/14 thron7 

> When I said "transform" I wasn't referring to the underlying point in
> time, but, as you put it, to the way it is expressed. But as soon as you
> express epoch milliseconds in a date-time string, you have to settle for
> a time zone, there's no way to avoid that. But you seem to believe that
> there is a date-time representation detached from all time zones. Which
> you call "UTC". Which is not true in my understanding, as this is
> actually UTC-0.
>
> Now if all you've got in terms of date-time is the local representation
> of the time (or the UTC-0 representation, for that matter), you need to
> calculate if you want to express that same point in time in terms of a
> different time zone, taking into account day/month/year borders, leap
> days, asf.
>
> It is fine that you would be contempt with representing any given point
> in time as its UTC-0 date-time string, and this "Zulu time" is fair
> enough to use as a reference. But others might want to express time in a
> different times zone. Maybe you should look at the contrib Derrell
> pointed at.
>
> On 12/14/2010 09:56 AM, Marius Austerschulte wrote:
> > The problem here is: It is not possible to transform a date object to
> > another time zone because internally the date object always uses UTC. I
> > don't want to transform the date object itself because then it would
> > refer to a different point in time. Look at the getTime method of the
> > Date object: getTime returns the number of milliseconds between the
> > desired point in time and midnight on January 1, 1970 (UTC). If you
> > transform that date object the number of milliseconds changes so it
> > would *not* refer to the same point in time anymore which means that
> > date is false.
> > A certain date object denotes one point in time which can be expressed
> > in different ways. Example: The date 2010/12/14 9:00 UTC refers to the
> > same point in time as 2010/12/14 11:00 UTC+2 (or CEST). So if I want to
> > display that date in a certain format I should tell the *formatter*
> > which representation of that one date object to use.
> > In my case I'd like to format a date object like "dd.MM.yyy HH:mm" and
> > display it in UTC. My date object is 2010/12/14 9:00 UTC. My time zone
> > here in Germany is UTC+1 in winter. Then the DateFormat class formats
> > the date like this: "14.12.2010 10:00". However, I want the date to be
> > displayed in UTC so according to your advice I would have to change my
> > date object to 2010/12/14 8:00 UTC to get the desired result from the
> > DateFormat class.
> > This seems to work at first sight, but it does not: Look at the dates
> > Mar 28 2010 00:59 UTC and Mar 28 2010 01:00 UTC. This is the point in
> > time when CET changes to CEST. The DateFormat class formats the first
> > date "28.03.2010 01:59" but the second "28.03.2010 03:00". It is not
> > possible to get, for example, the string "28.03.2010 02:00" from the
> > DateFormat class although this date exists in UTC.
> > You see, date transformation doesn't work here. It's an issue of
> > different representations of one moment in time.
> >
> >
> > 2010/12/14 thron7  > >
> >
> > Well, as I wrote, my understanding is that what you call UTC, is
> > actually
> > UTC-0 which is, like it or not, a time zone (London time). Adding a
> > UTC-0
> > API to some framework class would be of limited usability. More
> > interesting in my eyes would b

Re: [qooxdoo-devel] Format UTC dates

2010-12-14 Thread thron7 
When I said "transform" I wasn't referring to the underlying point in
time, but, as you put it, to the way it is expressed. But as soon as you
express epoch milliseconds in a date-time string, you have to settle for
a time zone, there's no way to avoid that. But you seem to believe that
there is a date-time representation detached from all time zones. Which
you call "UTC". Which is not true in my understanding, as this is
actually UTC-0.

Now if all you've got in terms of date-time is the local representation
of the time (or the UTC-0 representation, for that matter), you need to
calculate if you want to express that same point in time in terms of a
different time zone, taking into account day/month/year borders, leap
days, asf.

It is fine that you would be contempt with representing any given point
in time as its UTC-0 date-time string, and this "Zulu time" is fair
enough to use as a reference. But others might want to express time in a
different times zone. Maybe you should look at the contrib Derrell
pointed at.

On 12/14/2010 09:56 AM, Marius Austerschulte wrote:
> The problem here is: It is not possible to transform a date object to
> another time zone because internally the date object always uses UTC. I
> don't want to transform the date object itself because then it would
> refer to a different point in time. Look at the getTime method of the
> Date object: getTime returns the number of milliseconds between the
> desired point in time and midnight on January 1, 1970 (UTC). If you
> transform that date object the number of milliseconds changes so it
> would *not* refer to the same point in time anymore which means that
> date is false.
> A certain date object denotes one point in time which can be expressed
> in different ways. Example: The date 2010/12/14 9:00 UTC refers to the
> same point in time as 2010/12/14 11:00 UTC+2 (or CEST). So if I want to
> display that date in a certain format I should tell the *formatter*
> which representation of that one date object to use. 
> In my case I'd like to format a date object like "dd.MM.yyy HH:mm" and
> display it in UTC. My date object is 2010/12/14 9:00 UTC. My time zone
> here in Germany is UTC+1 in winter. Then the DateFormat class formats
> the date like this: "14.12.2010 10:00". However, I want the date to be
> displayed in UTC so according to your advice I would have to change my
> date object to 2010/12/14 8:00 UTC to get the desired result from the
> DateFormat class.
> This seems to work at first sight, but it does not: Look at the dates
> Mar 28 2010 00:59 UTC and Mar 28 2010 01:00 UTC. This is the point in
> time when CET changes to CEST. The DateFormat class formats the first
> date "28.03.2010 01:59" but the second "28.03.2010 03:00". It is not
> possible to get, for example, the string "28.03.2010 02:00" from the
> DateFormat class although this date exists in UTC.
> You see, date transformation doesn't work here. It's an issue of
> different representations of one moment in time.
> 
> 
> 2010/12/14 thron7  >
> 
> Well, as I wrote, my understanding is that what you call UTC, is
> actually
> UTC-0 which is, like it or not, a time zone (London time). Adding a
> UTC-0
> API to some framework class would be of limited usability. More
> interesting in my eyes would be an API that allows transformation of a
> date object to *any* time zone, but YMMV.
> 
> T.
> 
> >> On 12/13/2010 05:36 PM, Marius Austerschulte wrote:
> >> > Hi Alex,
> >> > I know that the DateFormat class is for formatting a date. I just
> >> > wondered why only the local representation of the date can be
> >> formatted,
> >> > not the UTC representation.
> >>
> >> I find what you write confusing. Any time, including the local,
> can be
> >> represented in UTC. Date.getUTCDate and friends provide the
> current time
> >> for a *specific* time zone, namely UTC-0. Is it this you're referring
> >> to? Then what you want is a date expressed in this particular
> time zone.
> >>
> >
> > I want that date being expressed in its UTC representation. A time
> zone is
> > an area on the earth's surface which has a uniform time. This time is
> > computed using an offset from UTC. The offset for a time zone may
> differ
> > during the year (e.g. the offset for the time zone of London in
> winter is
> > 0,
> > but +1 in summer). So I don't want the time of a certain time zone
> but the
> > universal time, which is UTC.
> >
> >
> >> > It would be nice if you could get a
> >> > formatted UTC representation of the date by using a format
> string like
> >> > "dd.MM." instead of having to build a date string manually like
> >> > d.getUTCDate() + "." + d.getUTCMonth() + ...
> >>
> >> But that would require date calculation, which, as Alex
> suggested, the
> >> DateFormat class

Re: [qooxdoo-devel] Format UTC dates

2010-12-14 Thread Marius Austerschulte 
The problem here is: It is not possible to transform a date object to
another time zone because internally the date object always uses UTC. I
don't want to transform the date object itself because then it would refer
to a different point in time. Look at the getTime method of the Date object:
getTime returns the number of milliseconds between the desired point in time
and midnight on January 1, 1970 (UTC). If you transform that date object the
number of milliseconds changes so it would *not* refer to the same point in
time anymore which means that date is false.
A certain date object denotes one point in time which can be expressed in
different ways. Example: The date 2010/12/14 9:00 UTC refers to the same
point in time as 2010/12/14 11:00 UTC+2 (or CEST). So if I want to display
that date in a certain format I should tell the *formatter* which
representation of that one date object to use.
In my case I'd like to format a date object like "dd.MM.yyy HH:mm" and
display it in UTC. My date object is 2010/12/14 9:00 UTC. My time zone here
in Germany is UTC+1 in winter. Then the DateFormat class formats the date
like this: "14.12.2010 10:00". However, I want the date to be displayed in
UTC so according to your advice I would have to change my date object to
2010/12/14 8:00 UTC to get the desired result from the DateFormat class.
This seems to work at first sight, but it does not: Look at the dates Mar 28
2010 00:59 UTC and Mar 28 2010 01:00 UTC. This is the point in time when CET
changes to CEST. The DateFormat class formats the first date "28.03.2010
01:59" but the second "28.03.2010 03:00". It is not possible to get, for
example, the string "28.03.2010 02:00" from the DateFormat class although
this date exists in UTC.
You see, date transformation doesn't work here. It's an issue of different
representations of one moment in time.


2010/12/14 thron7 

> Well, as I wrote, my understanding is that what you call UTC, is actually
> UTC-0 which is, like it or not, a time zone (London time). Adding a UTC-0
> API to some framework class would be of limited usability. More
> interesting in my eyes would be an API that allows transformation of a
> date object to *any* time zone, but YMMV.
>
> T.
>
> >> On 12/13/2010 05:36 PM, Marius Austerschulte wrote:
> >> > Hi Alex,
> >> > I know that the DateFormat class is for formatting a date. I just
> >> > wondered why only the local representation of the date can be
> >> formatted,
> >> > not the UTC representation.
> >>
> >> I find what you write confusing. Any time, including the local, can be
> >> represented in UTC. Date.getUTCDate and friends provide the current time
> >> for a *specific* time zone, namely UTC-0. Is it this you're referring
> >> to? Then what you want is a date expressed in this particular time zone.
> >>
> >
> > I want that date being expressed in its UTC representation. A time zone
> is
> > an area on the earth's surface which has a uniform time. This time is
> > computed using an offset from UTC. The offset for a time zone may differ
> > during the year (e.g. the offset for the time zone of London in winter is
> > 0,
> > but +1 in summer). So I don't want the time of a certain time zone but
> the
> > universal time, which is UTC.
> >
> >
> >> > It would be nice if you could get a
> >> > formatted UTC representation of the date by using a format string like
> >> > "dd.MM." instead of having to build a date string manually like
> >> > d.getUTCDate() + "." + d.getUTCMonth() + ...
> >>
> >> But that would require date calculation, which, as Alex suggested, the
> >> DateFormat class is not about. That would require a completely different
> >> class.
> >>
> >
> > Why does it require date calculation? The JavaScript API already provides
> > the methods to get the correct date in UTC, so there wouldn't be the need
> > for any further date calculation by the DateFormat class. I just want the
> > DateFormat.format method (or maybe a potential DateFormat.formatUTC
> > method)
> > to format that UTC time according to a certain format-string. So from my
> > point of view I can't see a big problem with enhancing the DateFormat
> > class
> > with such a feature.
> >
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> >
>
>
>
>
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Re: [qooxdoo-devel] Format UTC dates

2010-12-13 Thread Derrell Lipman 
On Mon, Dec 13, 2010 at 18:20, thron7  wrote:

> More interesting in my eyes would be an API that allows transformation of a
> date object to *any* time zone
>

That, and the reverse, is what the TimeZoneDate contrib class does. It
additionally has a documented toString() format and can parse that format,
and can be given additional formats.

Derrell
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Re: [qooxdoo-devel] Format UTC dates

2010-12-13 Thread thron7 
Well, as I wrote, my understanding is that what you call UTC, is actually
UTC-0 which is, like it or not, a time zone (London time). Adding a UTC-0
API to some framework class would be of limited usability. More
interesting in my eyes would be an API that allows transformation of a
date object to *any* time zone, but YMMV.

T.

>> On 12/13/2010 05:36 PM, Marius Austerschulte wrote:
>> > Hi Alex,
>> > I know that the DateFormat class is for formatting a date. I just
>> > wondered why only the local representation of the date can be
>> formatted,
>> > not the UTC representation.
>>
>> I find what you write confusing. Any time, including the local, can be
>> represented in UTC. Date.getUTCDate and friends provide the current time
>> for a *specific* time zone, namely UTC-0. Is it this you're referring
>> to? Then what you want is a date expressed in this particular time zone.
>>
>
> I want that date being expressed in its UTC representation. A time zone is
> an area on the earth's surface which has a uniform time. This time is
> computed using an offset from UTC. The offset for a time zone may differ
> during the year (e.g. the offset for the time zone of London in winter is
> 0,
> but +1 in summer). So I don't want the time of a certain time zone but the
> universal time, which is UTC.
>
>
>> > It would be nice if you could get a
>> > formatted UTC representation of the date by using a format string like
>> > "dd.MM." instead of having to build a date string manually like
>> > d.getUTCDate() + "." + d.getUTCMonth() + ...
>>
>> But that would require date calculation, which, as Alex suggested, the
>> DateFormat class is not about. That would require a completely different
>> class.
>>
>
> Why does it require date calculation? The JavaScript API already provides
> the methods to get the correct date in UTC, so there wouldn't be the need
> for any further date calculation by the DateFormat class. I just want the
> DateFormat.format method (or maybe a potential DateFormat.formatUTC
> method)
> to format that UTC time according to a certain format-string. So from my
> point of view I can't see a big problem with enhancing the DateFormat
> class
> with such a feature.
> --
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> Register now for Lotusphere 2011 and learn how
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Re: [qooxdoo-devel] Format UTC dates

2010-12-13 Thread Marius Austerschulte 
2010/12/13 thron7 

>
>
> On 12/13/2010 05:36 PM, Marius Austerschulte wrote:
> > Hi Alex,
> > I know that the DateFormat class is for formatting a date. I just
> > wondered why only the local representation of the date can be formatted,
> > not the UTC representation.
>
> I find what you write confusing. Any time, including the local, can be
> represented in UTC. Date.getUTCDate and friends provide the current time
> for a *specific* time zone, namely UTC-0. Is it this you're referring
> to? Then what you want is a date expressed in this particular time zone.
>

I want that date being expressed in its UTC representation. A time zone is
an area on the earth's surface which has a uniform time. This time is
computed using an offset from UTC. The offset for a time zone may differ
during the year (e.g. the offset for the time zone of London in winter is 0,
but +1 in summer). So I don't want the time of a certain time zone but the
universal time, which is UTC.


> > It would be nice if you could get a
> > formatted UTC representation of the date by using a format string like
> > "dd.MM." instead of having to build a date string manually like
> > d.getUTCDate() + "." + d.getUTCMonth() + ...
>
> But that would require date calculation, which, as Alex suggested, the
> DateFormat class is not about. That would require a completely different
> class.
>

Why does it require date calculation? The JavaScript API already provides
the methods to get the correct date in UTC, so there wouldn't be the need
for any further date calculation by the DateFormat class. I just want the
DateFormat.format method (or maybe a potential DateFormat.formatUTC method)
to format that UTC time according to a certain format-string. So from my
point of view I can't see a big problem with enhancing the DateFormat class
with such a feature.
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Re: [qooxdoo-devel] Format UTC dates

2010-12-13 Thread Derrell Lipman 
On Mon, Dec 13, 2010 at 13:29, thron7  wrote:

> > It would be nice if you could get a
> > formatted UTC representation of the date by using a format string like
> > "dd.MM." instead of having to build a date string manually like
> > d.getUTCDate() + "." + d.getUTCMonth() + ...
>
> But that would require date calculation, which, as Alex suggested, the
> DateFormat class is not about. That would require a completely different
> class.
>

It's possible that the TimeZoneDate contrib does what you're looking for.

Derrell
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Re: [qooxdoo-devel] Format UTC dates

2010-12-13 Thread thron7 


On 12/13/2010 05:36 PM, Marius Austerschulte wrote:
> Hi Alex,
> I know that the DateFormat class is for formatting a date. I just
> wondered why only the local representation of the date can be formatted,
> not the UTC representation.

I find what you write confusing. Any time, including the local, can be
represented in UTC. Date.getUTCDate and friends provide the current time
for a *specific* time zone, namely UTC-0. Is it this you're referring
to? Then what you want is a date expressed in this particular time zone.

> It would be nice if you could get a
> formatted UTC representation of the date by using a format string like
> "dd.MM." instead of having to build a date string manually like
> d.getUTCDate() + "." + d.getUTCMonth() + ...

But that would require date calculation, which, as Alex suggested, the
DateFormat class is not about. That would require a completely different
class.

T.

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Re: [qooxdoo-devel] Format UTC dates

2010-12-13 Thread Alexander Steitz 
Hi Marius,

feel free to open a bug report for this missing feature in the qooxdoo bugzilla 
(bugzilla.qooxdoo.org).

Regards,
  Alex

From: Marius Austerschulte [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Monday, December 13, 2010 5:36 PM
To: qooxdoo Development
Subject: Re: [qooxdoo-devel] Format UTC dates

Hi Alex,
I know that the DateFormat class is for formatting a date. I just wondered why 
only the local representation of the date can be formatted, not the UTC 
representation. It would be nice if you could get a formatted UTC 
representation of the date by using a format string like "dd.MM." instead 
of having to build a date string manually like d.getUTCDate() + "." + 
d.getUTCMonth() + ...

Marius

2010/12/13 Alexander Steitz 
mailto:[email protected]>>
Hi Marius,

I think you're mixing things up here. The DateFormat class is used to format a 
date according to a given locale, like "de-DE" or "en-GB".  Just take a look at 
the qooxdoo showcase application

http://demo.qooxdoo.org/current/showcase/#i18n

to see for yourself. The methods of the DateFormat class are all about 
formatting a date.

As far as I know there are no abstraction methods for the UTC methods available 
in qooxdoo. Just use them right ahead.

Regards,
  Alex

From: Marius Austerschulte 
[mailto:[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>]
Sent: Monday, December 13, 2010 3:56 PM
To: 
[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
Subject: [qooxdoo-devel] Format UTC dates

Hi all,
when I format a date using qx.util.format.DateFormat the date is converted to 
the computer's local timezone before it is displayed. Is it somehow possible to 
format a date with qx.util.format.DateFormat but let it display the date/time 
in UTC instead of the local timezone?
The standard JavaScript-API offers methods like getUTCDay, getUTCHours, etc., 
but I haven't found any way to do that with qx.util.format.DateFormat...

Thanks
Marius

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Re: [qooxdoo-devel] Format UTC dates

2010-12-13 Thread Marius Austerschulte 
Hi Alex,
I know that the DateFormat class is for formatting a date. I just wondered
why only the local representation of the date can be formatted, not the UTC
representation. It would be nice if you could get a formatted UTC
representation of the date by using a format string like "dd.MM."
instead of having to build a date string manually like d.getUTCDate() + "."
+ d.getUTCMonth() + ...

Marius


2010/12/13 Alexander Steitz 

> Hi Marius,
>
>
>
> I think you’re mixing things up here. The DateFormat class is used to
> format a date according to a given locale, like “de-DE” or “en-GB”.  Just
> take a look at the qooxdoo showcase application
>
>
>
> http://demo.qooxdoo.org/current/showcase/#i18n
>
>
>
> to see for yourself. The methods of the DateFormat class are all about
> formatting a date.
>
>
>
> As far as I know there are no abstraction methods for the UTC methods
> available in qooxdoo. Just use them right ahead.
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
>   Alex
>
>
>
> *From:* Marius Austerschulte [mailto:[email protected]]
> *Sent:* Monday, December 13, 2010 3:56 PM
> *To:* [email protected]
> *Subject:* [qooxdoo-devel] Format UTC dates
>
>
>
> Hi all,
>
> when I format a date using qx.util.format.DateFormat the date is converted
> to the computer's local timezone before it is displayed. Is it somehow
> possible to format a date with qx.util.format.DateFormat but let it display
> the date/time in UTC instead of the local timezone?
>
> The standard JavaScript-API offers methods like getUTCDay, getUTCHours,
> etc., but I haven't found any way to do that
> with qx.util.format.DateFormat...
>
>
>
> Thanks
>
> Marius
>
>
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Re: [qooxdoo-devel] Format UTC dates

2010-12-13 Thread Alexander Steitz 
Hi Marius,

I think you're mixing things up here. The DateFormat class is used to format a 
date according to a given locale, like "de-DE" or "en-GB".  Just take a look at 
the qooxdoo showcase application

http://demo.qooxdoo.org/current/showcase/#i18n

to see for yourself. The methods of the DateFormat class are all about 
formatting a date.

As far as I know there are no abstraction methods for the UTC methods available 
in qooxdoo. Just use them right ahead.

Regards,
  Alex

From: Marius Austerschulte [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Monday, December 13, 2010 3:56 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [qooxdoo-devel] Format UTC dates

Hi all,
when I format a date using qx.util.format.DateFormat the date is converted to 
the computer's local timezone before it is displayed. Is it somehow possible to 
format a date with qx.util.format.DateFormat but let it display the date/time 
in UTC instead of the local timezone?
The standard JavaScript-API offers methods like getUTCDay, getUTCHours, etc., 
but I haven't found any way to do that with qx.util.format.DateFormat...

Thanks
Marius
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