subject:"Re\: \[qooxdoo\-devel\] Qooxdoo users"

Re: [qooxdoo-devel] Qooxdoo users

2014-12-12 Thread Fritz Zaucker

On Fri, 12 Dec 2014, Phyo Arkar wrote:

> Thanks Tobi , i am looking in todoMVC and how to make it look and feel the
> same , then i will get a few of my team to work on it , as an exercise
> process.

Don't forget to tell us what

   "won't cust a single dime"

ultimately came to ... (in man hours, for example).

> Ideally i want to make a desktop version there , but they won't allow that
> i guess

https://github.com/tastejs/todomvc/blob/master/contributing.md

will tell you how to proceed ...

> it will look very different.

Perhaps a matter of theming?

> On Fri, Dec 12, 2014 at 4:49 AM, Tobi Oetiker  wrote:
>>
>> On 11.12.2014, at 18:55, Phyo Arkar  wrote:
>>
>> I don't think asking owner of TodoMVC site and ask them to post Qooxdoo's
>> Todo example there , won't cost a single dime.
>>
>> Phyo
>>
>> Great idea. Have you already submitted the code, or do you require any
>> help. I'll be glad to review your code if you post it on Github.
>>
>> Finally some one acting instead of just telling others what they should
>> do.
>>
>>  Go Phyo!
>>
>> cheers
>> tobi
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Dec 11, 2014 at 4:28 PM, Daniel Wagner 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 11.12.2014 09:19, Fritz Zaucker wrote:
> [...]
> It would be great to have one of those people with knowledge in PR and
> marketing help spreading qooxdoos word in order to gain more popularity
> and reputation

 That sounds like an excellent idea, although it might not be so easy to
 get such a person assigned to the Qooxdoo team, I assume.

 Cheers,
 Fritz

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Re: [qooxdoo-devel] Qooxdoo users

2014-12-12 Thread Phyo Arkar

Thanks Tobi , i am looking in todoMVC and how to make it look and feel the
same , then i will get a few of my team to work on it , as an exercise
process.

Ideally i want to make a desktop version there , but they won't allow that
i guess , it will look very different.

On Fri, Dec 12, 2014 at 4:49 AM, Tobi Oetiker  wrote:
>
>
>
> On 11.12.2014, at 18:55, Phyo Arkar  wrote:
>
> I don't think asking owner of TodoMVC site and ask them to post Qooxdoo's
> Todo example there , won't cost a single dime.
>
>
> Phyo
>
> Great idea. Have you already submitted the code, or do you require any
> help. I'll be glad to review your code if you post it on Github.
>
> Finally some one acting instead of just telling others what they should do.
>
>  Go Phyo!
>
> cheers
> tobi
>
>
> On Thu, Dec 11, 2014 at 4:28 PM, Daniel Wagner 
> wrote:
>
>> On 11.12.2014 09:19, Fritz Zaucker wrote:
>> >> [...]
>> >> It would be great to have one of those people with knowledge in PR and
>> >> marketing help spreading qooxdoos word in order to gain more popularity
>> >> and reputation
>> >
>> > That sounds like an excellent idea, although it might not be so easy to
>> get
>> > such a person assigned to the Qooxdoo team, I assume.
>> >
>> > Cheers,
>> > Fritz
>> >
>>
>> You have to keep in mind that qooxdoo is not a commercial product and
>> 1&1 doesn't offer paid support for it or anything like that. So the only
>> ROI on promoting it would be to increase the company's profile with
>> developers. That's useful of course, but you can't put a number on it so
>> it's very hard to justify the expense.
>>
>>
>> --
>> Download BIRT iHub F-Type - The Free Enterprise-Grade BIRT Server
>> from Actuate! Instantly Supercharge Your Business Reports and Dashboards
>> with Interactivity, Sharing, Native Excel Exports, App Integration & more
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>> ___
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>> [email protected]
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/qooxdoo-devel
>>
>
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Re: [qooxdoo-devel] Qooxdoo users

2014-12-12 Thread Phyo Arkar

Thanks a lot Thats a good start.
What i see in todoMVC is every framework's look and feel need to be exact
same right?
So qxweb is needed to use there. Cannot post QxDesktop or Mobile there , i
think.

On Fri, Dec 12, 2014 at 1:20 PM, Martin Wittemann  wrote:
>
>  Totally agree! I would love to see that as well. We already have an issue
> for that [1]. So if anyone is interested, let me know by commenting on that
> issue e.g..
>
> Btw. this is ofc true for every other issue we have in bugzilla. Just post
> a comment there and let us know you want to work on that. We can sure give
> you a head start, figure out what needs to be done and a way out how we get
> that integrated as well.
>
>  Regards,
> Martin
>
>  [1] http://bugzilla.qooxdoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=6606
>
>
>  Am 12.12.2014 um 01:00 schrieb Petr Kobalíček :
>
>  This would be an interesting challenge actually.
>
>  I think that most problematic is the deploying process - generator. Yeah
> guys, please try this out and then share your experience on mailing list,
> I'm really curious about this.
>
>  Cheers,
> Petr
>
> On Thu, Dec 11, 2014 at 11:19 PM, Tobi Oetiker  wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> On 11.12.2014, at 18:55, Phyo Arkar  wrote:
>>
>>   I don't think asking owner of TodoMVC site and ask them to post
>> Qooxdoo's Todo example there , won't cost a single dime.
>>
>>
>>  Phyo
>>
>>  Great idea. Have you already submitted the code, or do you require any
>> help. I'll be glad to review your code if you post it on Github.
>>
>>  Finally some one acting instead of just telling others what they should
>> do.
>>
>>   Go Phyo!
>>
>>  cheers
>> tobi
>>
>>
>>   On Thu, Dec 11, 2014 at 4:28 PM, Daniel Wagner 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 11.12.2014 09:19, Fritz Zaucker wrote:
>>> >> [...]
>>> >> It would be great to have one of those people with knowledge in PR and
>>> >> marketing help spreading qooxdoos word in order to gain more
>>> popularity
>>> >> and reputation
>>> >
>>> > That sounds like an excellent idea, although it might not be so easy
>>> to get
>>> > such a person assigned to the Qooxdoo team, I assume.
>>> >
>>> > Cheers,
>>> > Fritz
>>> >
>>>
>>> You have to keep in mind that qooxdoo is not a commercial product and
>>> 1&1 doesn't offer paid support for it or anything like that. So the only
>>> ROI on promoting it would be to increase the company's profile with
>>> developers. That's useful of course, but you can't put a number on it so
>>> it's very hard to justify the expense.
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Download BIRT iHub F-Type - The Free Enterprise-Grade BIRT Server
>>> from Actuate! Instantly Supercharge Your Business Reports and Dashboards
>>> with Interactivity, Sharing, Native Excel Exports, App Integration & more
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>>> ___
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>>> [email protected]
>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/qooxdoo-devel
>>>
>>
>>
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>>
>
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Re: [qooxdoo-devel] Qooxdoo users

2014-12-11 Thread Martin Wittemann

Totally agree! I would love to see that as well. We already have an issue for 
that [1]. So if anyone is interested, let me know by commenting on that issue 
e.g..

Btw. this is ofc true for every other issue we have in bugzilla. Just post a 
comment there and let us know you want to work on that. We can sure give you a 
head start, figure out what needs to be done and a way out how we get that 
integrated as well.

Regards,
Martin

[1] http://bugzilla.qooxdoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=6606

Am 12.12.2014 um 01:00 schrieb Petr Kobalíček 
mailto:[email protected]>>:

This would be an interesting challenge actually.

I think that most problematic is the deploying process - generator. Yeah guys, 
please try this out and then share your experience on mailing list, I'm really 
curious about this.

Cheers,
Petr

On Thu, Dec 11, 2014 at 11:19 PM, Tobi Oetiker 
mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:

On 11.12.2014, at 18:55, Phyo Arkar 
mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:

I don't think asking owner of TodoMVC site and ask them to post Qooxdoo's Todo 
example there , won't cost a single dime.

Phyo

Great idea. Have you already submitted the code, or do you require any help. 
I'll be glad to review your code if you post it on Github.

Finally some one acting instead of just telling others what they should do.

 Go Phyo!

cheers
tobi

On Thu, Dec 11, 2014 at 4:28 PM, Daniel Wagner 
mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
On 11.12.2014 09:19, Fritz Zaucker wrote:
>> [...]
>> It would be great to have one of those people with knowledge in PR and
>> marketing help spreading qooxdoos word in order to gain more popularity
>> and reputation
>
> That sounds like an excellent idea, although it might not be so easy to get
> such a person assigned to the Qooxdoo team, I assume.
>
> Cheers,
> Fritz
>

You have to keep in mind that qooxdoo is not a commercial product and
1&1 doesn't offer paid support for it or anything like that. So the only
ROI on promoting it would be to increase the company's profile with
developers. That's useful of course, but you can't put a number on it so
it's very hard to justify the expense.

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Re: [qooxdoo-devel] Qooxdoo users

2014-12-11 Thread Petr Kobalíček

This would be an interesting challenge actually.

I think that most problematic is the deploying process - generator. Yeah
guys, please try this out and then share your experience on mailing list,
I'm really curious about this.

Cheers,
Petr

On Thu, Dec 11, 2014 at 11:19 PM, Tobi Oetiker  wrote:

>
>
> On 11.12.2014, at 18:55, Phyo Arkar  wrote:
>
> I don't think asking owner of TodoMVC site and ask them to post Qooxdoo's
> Todo example there , won't cost a single dime.
>
>
> Phyo
>
> Great idea. Have you already submitted the code, or do you require any
> help. I'll be glad to review your code if you post it on Github.
>
> Finally some one acting instead of just telling others what they should do.
>
>  Go Phyo!
>
> cheers
> tobi
>
>
> On Thu, Dec 11, 2014 at 4:28 PM, Daniel Wagner 
> wrote:
>
>> On 11.12.2014 09:19, Fritz Zaucker wrote:
>> >> [...]
>> >> It would be great to have one of those people with knowledge in PR and
>> >> marketing help spreading qooxdoos word in order to gain more popularity
>> >> and reputation
>> >
>> > That sounds like an excellent idea, although it might not be so easy to
>> get
>> > such a person assigned to the Qooxdoo team, I assume.
>> >
>> > Cheers,
>> > Fritz
>> >
>>
>> You have to keep in mind that qooxdoo is not a commercial product and
>> 1&1 doesn't offer paid support for it or anything like that. So the only
>> ROI on promoting it would be to increase the company's profile with
>> developers. That's useful of course, but you can't put a number on it so
>> it's very hard to justify the expense.
>>
>>
>> --
>> Download BIRT iHub F-Type - The Free Enterprise-Grade BIRT Server
>> from Actuate! Instantly Supercharge Your Business Reports and Dashboards
>> with Interactivity, Sharing, Native Excel Exports, App Integration & more
>> Get technology previously reserved for billion-dollar corporations, FREE
>>
>> http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=164703151&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk
>> ___
>> qooxdoo-devel mailing list
>> [email protected]
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/qooxdoo-devel
>>
>
>
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Re: [qooxdoo-devel] Qooxdoo users

2014-12-11 Thread Tobi Oetiker



> On 11.12.2014, at 18:55, Phyo Arkar  wrote:
> 
> I don't think asking owner of TodoMVC site and ask them to post Qooxdoo's 
> Todo example there , won't cost a single dime. 
> 

Phyo

Great idea. Have you already submitted the code, or do you require any help. 
I'll be glad to review your code if you post it on Github.

Finally some one acting instead of just telling others what they should do.

 Go Phyo!

cheers
tobi


>> On Thu, Dec 11, 2014 at 4:28 PM, Daniel Wagner  
>> wrote:
>> On 11.12.2014 09:19, Fritz Zaucker wrote:
>> >> [...]
>> >> It would be great to have one of those people with knowledge in PR and
>> >> marketing help spreading qooxdoos word in order to gain more popularity
>> >> and reputation
>> >
>> > That sounds like an excellent idea, although it might not be so easy to get
>> > such a person assigned to the Qooxdoo team, I assume.
>> >
>> > Cheers,
>> > Fritz
>> >
>> 
>> You have to keep in mind that qooxdoo is not a commercial product and
>> 1&1 doesn't offer paid support for it or anything like that. So the only
>> ROI on promoting it would be to increase the company's profile with
>> developers. That's useful of course, but you can't put a number on it so
>> it's very hard to justify the expense.
>> 
>> --
>> Download BIRT iHub F-Type - The Free Enterprise-Grade BIRT Server
>> from Actuate! Instantly Supercharge Your Business Reports and Dashboards
>> with Interactivity, Sharing, Native Excel Exports, App Integration & more
>> Get technology previously reserved for billion-dollar corporations, FREE
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>> ___
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>> [email protected]
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/qooxdoo-devel
> 
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Re: [qooxdoo-devel] Qooxdoo users

2014-12-11 Thread Phyo Arkar

I don't think asking owner of TodoMVC site and ask them to post Qooxdoo's
Todo example there , won't cost a single dime.

On Thu, Dec 11, 2014 at 4:28 PM, Daniel Wagner 
wrote:

> On 11.12.2014 09:19, Fritz Zaucker wrote:
> >> [...]
> >> It would be great to have one of those people with knowledge in PR and
> >> marketing help spreading qooxdoos word in order to gain more popularity
> >> and reputation
> >
> > That sounds like an excellent idea, although it might not be so easy to
> get
> > such a person assigned to the Qooxdoo team, I assume.
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Fritz
> >
>
> You have to keep in mind that qooxdoo is not a commercial product and
> 1&1 doesn't offer paid support for it or anything like that. So the only
> ROI on promoting it would be to increase the company's profile with
> developers. That's useful of course, but you can't put a number on it so
> it's very hard to justify the expense.
>
>
> --
> Download BIRT iHub F-Type - The Free Enterprise-Grade BIRT Server
> from Actuate! Instantly Supercharge Your Business Reports and Dashboards
> with Interactivity, Sharing, Native Excel Exports, App Integration & more
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> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/qooxdoo-devel
>
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Re: [qooxdoo-devel] Qooxdoo users

2014-12-11 Thread Fritz Zaucker

On Thu, 11 Dec 2014, Daniel Wagner wrote:

> On 11.12.2014 09:19, Fritz Zaucker wrote:
>>> [...]
>>> It would be great to have one of those people with knowledge in PR and
>>> marketing help spreading qooxdoos word in order to gain more popularity
>>> and reputation
>>
>> That sounds like an excellent idea, although it might not be so easy to
>> get such a person assigned to the Qooxdoo team, I assume.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Fritz
>
> You have to keep in mind that qooxdoo is not a commercial product and
> 1&1 doesn't offer paid support for it or anything like that. So the only
> ROI on promoting it would be to increase the company's profile with
> developers. That's useful of course, but you can't put a number on it so
> it's very hard to justify the expense.

More users would probably also lead to more contributions, bug reports and
fixes, etc, so Qooxdoo and thus 1&1 would profit from that as well. Of
course, that also is hard to quantify.

-- 
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Fritz Zaucker+41 62 775 9900 (switch board)
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Re: [qooxdoo-devel] Qooxdoo users

2014-12-11 Thread Daniel Wagner

On 11.12.2014 09:19, Fritz Zaucker wrote:
>> [...]
>> It would be great to have one of those people with knowledge in PR and
>> marketing help spreading qooxdoos word in order to gain more popularity
>> and reputation
> 
> That sounds like an excellent idea, although it might not be so easy to get
> such a person assigned to the Qooxdoo team, I assume.
> 
> Cheers,
> Fritz
> 

You have to keep in mind that qooxdoo is not a commercial product and
1&1 doesn't offer paid support for it or anything like that. So the only
ROI on promoting it would be to increase the company's profile with
developers. That's useful of course, but you can't put a number on it so
it's very hard to justify the expense.

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Re: [qooxdoo-devel] Qooxdoo users

2014-12-11 Thread Fritz Zaucker

On Thu, 11 Dec 2014, Dietrich Streifert wrote:

> And to bring it all a little back to ground:
>
> I had three issues with current master (not next branch) during the last
> two weeks, which I reported in bugzilla.qooxdoo.org, partially equipped
> with pull requests on github, all being resolved and part of the
> upcoming releases. Kudos go to Martin Wittemann and Tobias Oberrauch,
> both core team members. So the core dev team IS listening. That's good!

good to hear that you had similar experiences as we have.

> On the other side a short mail on the qooxdoo devel mailing list about
> the targets and intentions of the next branch (something like please
> read the blog article regarding the next branch is enough) not being the
> next qooxdoo would have been great. So the core dev team is listening,
> but maybe not talking enough. That could have been better.

On the other hand, the ratio of coding to talking is good ... ;-)

> Regarding the popularity of qooxdoo: As per current informations [1]
> United Internet, where the core devs are working for (please correct me
> if I'm wrong here), has 7800 employees with 2000 people working in
> (cite) "product management, development and data centers".
>
> It would be great to have one of those people with knowledge in PR and
> marketing help spreading qooxdoos word in order to gain more popularity
> and reputation

That sounds like an excellent idea, although it might not be so easy to get
such a person assigned to the Qooxdoo team, I assume.

Cheers,
Fritz

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Re: [qooxdoo-devel] Qooxdoo users

2014-12-11 Thread Dietrich Streifert

Am 10.12.2014 um 13:00 schrieb Daniel Wagner:
> On 10.12.2014 12:29, Phyo Arkar wrote:
>> Yeah , A fork , for this project , need full time dedication , which non
>> of us have that time or energy.
>> Qooxdoo have very good design philosophies , a fork should not deviate
>> from that , and maintainers need to make sure about that.
>>
>> I just hope Development process is open and inviting for the community.
>>
>> And i think developers already abandoned this thread..
> We haven't, we're just busy with the 4.0.2/4.1 release rampdown.
>
And to bring it all a little back to ground:

I had three issues with current master (not next branch) during the last 
two weeks, which I reported in bugzilla.qooxdoo.org, partially equipped 
with pull requests on github, all being resolved and part of the 
upcoming releases. Kudos go to Martin Wittemann and Tobias Oberrauch, 
both core team members. So the core dev team IS listening. That's good!

On the other side a short mail on the qooxdoo devel mailing list about 
the targets and intentions of the next branch (something like please 
read the blog article regarding the next branch is enough) not being the 
next qooxdoo would have been great. So the core dev team is listening, 
but maybe not talking enough. That could have been better.

Regarding the popularity of qooxdoo: As per current informations [1] 
United Internet, where the core devs are working for (please correct me 
if I'm wrong here), has 7800 employees with 2000 people working in 
(cite) "product management, development and data centers".

It would be great to have one of those people with knowledge in PR and 
marketing help spreading qooxdoos word in order to gain more popularity 
and reputation, as I suppose Google does whith AngularJS.

Regards
Dietrich

[1] http://www.united-internet.de/en/company.html

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Re: [qooxdoo-devel] Qooxdoo users

2014-12-10 Thread Daniel Wagner

On 10.12.2014 12:29, Phyo Arkar wrote:
> Yeah , A fork , for this project , need full time dedication , which non
> of us have that time or energy.
> Qooxdoo have very good design philosophies , a fork should not deviate
> from that , and maintainers need to make sure about that.
> 
> I just hope Development process is open and inviting for the community.
> 
> And i think developers already abandoned this thread..

We haven't, we're just busy with the 4.0.2/4.1 release rampdown.

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Re: [qooxdoo-devel] Qooxdoo users

2014-12-10 Thread Phyo Arkar

Yeah , A fork , for this project , need full time dedication , which non of
us have that time or energy.
Qooxdoo have very good design philosophies , a fork should not deviate from
that , and maintainers need to make sure about that.

I just hope Development process is open and inviting for the community.

And i think developers already abandoned this thread..

On Sat, Dec 6, 2014 at 3:41 AM, Loren Schlomer  wrote:

> Agree on all points.  Which is why I think a fork may be necessary for
> the longevity of this fantastic product.  I really empathize with the
> limitations and restrictions placed on the core team and the
> frustrations that have to follow, but I also understand that 1&1 runs a
> business and to stay in business they have to do things that earn money.
>   It almost feels like qooxdoo is a child stuck in the middle of a
> custody battle.  Sad story really.
>
> I've thought about taking the first step and creating a fork, but every
> time I do, thorough introspection tells me that I don't really have the
> time or energy outside of my current duties to take on such a task right
> now.  That may (and hopefully will) change in the future, but right now
> it's just not possible.
>
> But to your last point, yeah the future of qooxdoo does seem uncertain,
> and for that reason it's not only becoming more difficult to sell it to
> stakeholders, I'm also finding it more difficult to even attempt to
> market it to stakeholders.  They read buzzwords like Angular and
> Bootstrap all over the place and have their minds already made up, for
> all intents and purposes -- and I can't really argue with them;
> combined, you can do some pretty cool stuff with Angular and Bootstrap
> without much effort (Angular is a pretty decent framework...)  As
> unfortunate as it is, the technical merits of qooxdoo over
> Angular/Ember/Backbone/... just aren't enough anymore - and with
> TypeScript and ECMA6 just around the corner, even less so.
>
>
>
> On 2014-12-05 11:33, [email protected] wrote:
> > Hi ls,
> >
> >> One thing to remember,
> >>
> >> Most open source projects are the efforts of people spanning many
> >> miles,
> >> countries (and possibly continents.)  Coordinating efforts over a
> >> public
> >> mailing system is very natural.
> >>
> >> Now, I may be entirely wrong on this, and I hope the qooxdoo guys will
> >> correct me... but, I understand that all of the core qooxdoo team is
> >> under one roof at the 1&1 office, communicating primarily face-to-face
> >> and over private corporate email.  This may prove far more productive
> >> for their work flow (which I imagine includes more than just qooxdoo
> >> related tasks) than public mailing lists.  This is not to say they
> >> couldn't open up their qooxdoo development efforts more, but I imagine
> >> they would need to separate the qooxdoo project from its corporate
> >> sponsorship of 1&1.  The decision makers at 1&1 may not be open to
> >> that
> >> idea.
> >
> > The last sentence is probably one of the reasons.
> >
> > The big question is: Why is qooxdoo open source if not with an open
> > thriving community? What is the gain for 1&1? What is the gain when
> > the spread is extremely limited? Why is 1&1 spending time on the
> > mailing list at all? Why not use that time for internal income
> > bringing projects? Maybe it is the internal battle we see between 1&1
> > management, who might want the developers to focus on income bringing
> > tasks, while the core team might want to be recognized for what they
> > do by open source. None of it is achieved now:
> >
> > 1. almost no help or feedback from the community
> > 2. less focus on internal projects -> less invoicing
> > 3. small community -> almost no recognition to developers or 1&1
> >
> > As a corporate manager it is a headless decision without point not
> > using the community when it is open source.
> >
> >> Yes, qooxdoo is an open source project with every sense of the phrase,
> >> yes it can be forked and turned into something more what you expect an
> >> open source project to be, but since the core qooxdoo team earns their
> >> living developing for 1&1, the decision to make qooxdoo development
> >> cycles more open may currently be beyond the core developers'
> >> capabilities.
> >
> > For sure an internal battle based on misunderstanding and lack of
> > knowledge and understanding of how a community can contribute to their
> > own purposes as well.
> >
> >> Just something to remember when forming opinions on the state of
> >> qooxdoo
> >> development.
> >>
> >>
> >> I'm just super glad and happy to have what we have. :)
> >
> > We too, but definitively worried about the future as qooxdoo is
> > lagging behind in too many areas now!
> >
> >
> > Stefan
> >
> >> -ls
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On 2014-12-05 09:31, Phyo Arkar wrote:
> >>> Yes , exactly.
> >>> For example , Rethinkdb, their whole development process is very Open
> >>> , everything is on mailing list + github that i ca

Re: [qooxdoo-devel] Qooxdoo users

2014-12-05 Thread Loren Schlomer

Agree on all points.  Which is why I think a fork may be necessary for 
the longevity of this fantastic product.  I really empathize with the 
limitations and restrictions placed on the core team and the 
frustrations that have to follow, but I also understand that 1&1 runs a 
business and to stay in business they have to do things that earn money. 
  It almost feels like qooxdoo is a child stuck in the middle of a 
custody battle.  Sad story really.

I've thought about taking the first step and creating a fork, but every 
time I do, thorough introspection tells me that I don't really have the 
time or energy outside of my current duties to take on such a task right 
now.  That may (and hopefully will) change in the future, but right now 
it's just not possible.

But to your last point, yeah the future of qooxdoo does seem uncertain, 
and for that reason it's not only becoming more difficult to sell it to 
stakeholders, I'm also finding it more difficult to even attempt to 
market it to stakeholders.  They read buzzwords like Angular and 
Bootstrap all over the place and have their minds already made up, for 
all intents and purposes -- and I can't really argue with them; 
combined, you can do some pretty cool stuff with Angular and Bootstrap 
without much effort (Angular is a pretty decent framework...)  As 
unfortunate as it is, the technical merits of qooxdoo over 
Angular/Ember/Backbone/... just aren't enough anymore - and with 
TypeScript and ECMA6 just around the corner, even less so.

On 2014-12-05 11:33, [email protected] wrote:
> Hi ls,
> 
>> One thing to remember,
>> 
>> Most open source projects are the efforts of people spanning many 
>> miles,
>> countries (and possibly continents.)  Coordinating efforts over a 
>> public
>> mailing system is very natural.
>> 
>> Now, I may be entirely wrong on this, and I hope the qooxdoo guys will
>> correct me... but, I understand that all of the core qooxdoo team is
>> under one roof at the 1&1 office, communicating primarily face-to-face
>> and over private corporate email.  This may prove far more productive
>> for their work flow (which I imagine includes more than just qooxdoo
>> related tasks) than public mailing lists.  This is not to say they
>> couldn't open up their qooxdoo development efforts more, but I imagine
>> they would need to separate the qooxdoo project from its corporate
>> sponsorship of 1&1.  The decision makers at 1&1 may not be open to 
>> that
>> idea.
> 
> The last sentence is probably one of the reasons.
> 
> The big question is: Why is qooxdoo open source if not with an open
> thriving community? What is the gain for 1&1? What is the gain when
> the spread is extremely limited? Why is 1&1 spending time on the
> mailing list at all? Why not use that time for internal income
> bringing projects? Maybe it is the internal battle we see between 1&1
> management, who might want the developers to focus on income bringing
> tasks, while the core team might want to be recognized for what they
> do by open source. None of it is achieved now:
> 
> 1. almost no help or feedback from the community
> 2. less focus on internal projects -> less invoicing
> 3. small community -> almost no recognition to developers or 1&1
> 
> As a corporate manager it is a headless decision without point not
> using the community when it is open source.
> 
>> Yes, qooxdoo is an open source project with every sense of the phrase,
>> yes it can be forked and turned into something more what you expect an
>> open source project to be, but since the core qooxdoo team earns their
>> living developing for 1&1, the decision to make qooxdoo development
>> cycles more open may currently be beyond the core developers'
>> capabilities.
> 
> For sure an internal battle based on misunderstanding and lack of
> knowledge and understanding of how a community can contribute to their
> own purposes as well.
> 
>> Just something to remember when forming opinions on the state of 
>> qooxdoo
>> development.
>> 
>> 
>> I'm just super glad and happy to have what we have. :)
> 
> We too, but definitively worried about the future as qooxdoo is
> lagging behind in too many areas now!
> 
> 
> Stefan
> 
>> -ls
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On 2014-12-05 09:31, Phyo Arkar wrote:
>>> Yes , exactly.
>>> For example , Rethinkdb, their whole development process is very Open
>>> , everything is on mailing list + github that i can follow every 
>>> after
>>> 3 months of not reading mailing list.
>>> 
>>> If qooxdoo is that open , many good things will happen.
>>> 
>>> On Fri, Dec 5, 2014 at 6:00 PM, John Spackman 
>>> 
>>> wrote:
>>> 
 Hi Martin & Andreas

 Interesting , I am now very curious abot followings.

 * Thats means , this can be themed using CSS? (Like Bootstrap
 CSS?)
 * How about Layout system , will layout systems of qooxdoo will
 kept there ? Templating? Can we mix with other template systems
 (Bootstrap Templates , Zurb Foundation) ?
 * Wi

Re: [qooxdoo-devel] Qooxdoo users

2014-12-05 Thread IMAP [email protected]

How about going back to writing some more code?

Cheers,
Fritz

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+41 62 775 9903

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Re: [qooxdoo-devel] Qooxdoo users

2014-12-05 Thread dev

Hi ls,

> One thing to remember,
>
> Most open source projects are the efforts of people spanning many miles, 
> countries (and possibly continents.)  Coordinating efforts over a public 
> mailing system is very natural.
>
> Now, I may be entirely wrong on this, and I hope the qooxdoo guys will 
> correct me... but, I understand that all of the core qooxdoo team is 
> under one roof at the 1&1 office, communicating primarily face-to-face 
> and over private corporate email.  This may prove far more productive 
> for their work flow (which I imagine includes more than just qooxdoo 
> related tasks) than public mailing lists.  This is not to say they 
> couldn't open up their qooxdoo development efforts more, but I imagine 
> they would need to separate the qooxdoo project from its corporate 
> sponsorship of 1&1.  The decision makers at 1&1 may not be open to that 
> idea.

The last sentence is probably one of the reasons.

The big question is: Why is qooxdoo open source if not with an open thriving 
community? What is the gain for 1&1? What is the gain when the spread is 
extremely limited? Why is 1&1 spending time on the mailing list at all? Why not 
use that time for internal income bringing projects? Maybe it is the internal 
battle we see between 1&1 management, who might want the developers to focus on 
income bringing tasks, while the core team might want to be recognized for what 
they do by open source. None of it is achieved now:

1. almost no help or feedback from the community
2. less focus on internal projects -> less invoicing
3. small community -> almost no recognition to developers or 1&1

As a corporate manager it is a headless decision without point not using the 
community when it is open source.

> Yes, qooxdoo is an open source project with every sense of the phrase, 
> yes it can be forked and turned into something more what you expect an 
> open source project to be, but since the core qooxdoo team earns their 
> living developing for 1&1, the decision to make qooxdoo development 
> cycles more open may currently be beyond the core developers' 
> capabilities.

For sure an internal battle based on misunderstanding and lack of knowledge and 
understanding of how a community can contribute to their own purposes as well.

> Just something to remember when forming opinions on the state of qooxdoo 
> development.
>
>
> I'm just super glad and happy to have what we have. :)

We too, but definitively worried about the future as qooxdoo is lagging behind 
in too many areas now!


Stefan

> -ls
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On 2014-12-05 09:31, Phyo Arkar wrote:
>> Yes , exactly.
>> For example , Rethinkdb, their whole development process is very Open
>> , everything is on mailing list + github that i can follow every after
>> 3 months of not reading mailing list.
>> 
>> If qooxdoo is that open , many good things will happen.
>> 
>> On Fri, Dec 5, 2014 at 6:00 PM, John Spackman 
>> wrote:
>> 
>>> Hi Martin & Andreas
>>> 
>>> Interesting , I am now very curious abot followings.
>>> 
>>> * Thats means , this can be themed using CSS? (Like Bootstrap
>>> CSS?)
>>> * How about Layout system , will layout systems of qooxdoo will
>>> kept there ? Templating? Can we mix with other template systems
>>> (Bootstrap Templates , Zurb Foundation) ?
>>> * Will it be easier to mix with other JS?
>>> 
>>> We are happy with our agile approach and the intermediate results
>>> while addressing specific challenges of the website-oriented
>>> projects. Thus we like to share this good news, well-aware that many
>>> of you won’t be able to benefit from this experimental code base
>>> any time soon.
>> 
>> I find Phyo’s questions above really interesting and relevant, but I
>> can’t help thinking that if the dev team’s internal discussions
>> were on an open mailing list we’d be much more up to speed already,
>> without needing you guys to write a big article(s) with all the
>> explanations, justification, example code, etc that a major new
>> product would require.
>> 
>> IMHO having an open dev-only mailing list could be constructive and
>> time saving for you, as well as stimulating for us and the project’s
>> public face.
>> 
>> Regards
>> John
>> 
>> --
>>  Download BIRT iHub F-Type - The Free Enterprise-Grade BIRT Server
>>  from Actuate! Instantly Supercharge Your Business Reports and
>> Dashboards
>>  with Interactivity, Sharing, Native Excel Exports, App Integration &
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>>  Get technology previously reserved for billion-dollar corporations,
>> FREE
>>  
>> http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=164703151&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk
>> [1]
>> ___
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>>  [email protected]
>>  https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/qooxdoo-devel [2]
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Links:
>> --
>> [1]
>> http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=164703151&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk
>>

Re: [qooxdoo-devel] Qooxdoo users

2014-12-05 Thread Phyo Arkar

>I'm just super glad and happy to have what we have. :)
All we want is want to know whats going on (Like qooxdoo next , which is
very exciting but only a few knows)

And more communication with users  so we Know what we can contribute too.
And my personal choice is more integration with Github , issues raised on
Bugzilla is not known to github page and we don't know what bugs are
working on for github users. For me , the Bugzilla interface is very
paintful to use ..


On Sat, Dec 6, 2014 at 12:24 AM, Loren Schlomer  wrote:

> One thing to remember,
>
> Most open source projects are the efforts of people spanning many miles,
> countries (and possibly continents.)  Coordinating efforts over a public
> mailing system is very natural.
>
> Now, I may be entirely wrong on this, and I hope the qooxdoo guys will
> correct me... but, I understand that all of the core qooxdoo team is
> under one roof at the 1&1 office, communicating primarily face-to-face
> and over private corporate email.  This may prove far more productive
> for their work flow (which I imagine includes more than just qooxdoo
> related tasks) than public mailing lists.  This is not to say they
> couldn't open up their qooxdoo development efforts more, but I imagine
> they would need to separate the qooxdoo project from its corporate
> sponsorship of 1&1.  The decision makers at 1&1 may not be open to that
> idea.
>
> Yes, qooxdoo is an open source project with every sense of the phrase,
> yes it can be forked and turned into something more what you expect an
> open source project to be, but since the core qooxdoo team earns their
> living developing for 1&1, the decision to make qooxdoo development
> cycles more open may currently be beyond the core developers'
> capabilities.
>
> Just something to remember when forming opinions on the state of qooxdoo
> development.
>
>
> I'm just super glad and happy to have what we have. :)
>
> -ls
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On 2014-12-05 09:31, Phyo Arkar wrote:
> > Yes , exactly.
> > For example , Rethinkdb, their whole development process is very Open
> > , everything is on mailing list + github that i can follow every after
> > 3 months of not reading mailing list.
> >
> > If qooxdoo is that open , many good things will happen.
> >
> > On Fri, Dec 5, 2014 at 6:00 PM, John Spackman 
> > wrote:
> >
> >> Hi Martin & Andreas
> >>
> >> Interesting , I am now very curious abot followings.
> >>
> >> * Thats means , this can be themed using CSS? (Like Bootstrap
> >> CSS?)
> >> * How about Layout system , will layout systems of qooxdoo will
> >> kept there ? Templating? Can we mix with other template systems
> >> (Bootstrap Templates , Zurb Foundation) ?
> >> * Will it be easier to mix with other JS?
> >>
> >> We are happy with our agile approach and the intermediate results
> >> while addressing specific challenges of the website-oriented
> >> projects. Thus we like to share this good news, well-aware that many
> >> of you won’t be able to benefit from this experimental code base
> >> any time soon.
> >
> > I find Phyo’s questions above really interesting and relevant, but I
> > can’t help thinking that if the dev team’s internal discussions
> > were on an open mailing list we’d be much more up to speed already,
> > without needing you guys to write a big article(s) with all the
> > explanations, justification, example code, etc that a major new
> > product would require.
> >
> > IMHO having an open dev-only mailing list could be constructive and
> > time saving for you, as well as stimulating for us and the project’s
> > public face.
> >
> > Regards
> > John
> >
> >
> --
> >  Download BIRT iHub F-Type - The Free Enterprise-Grade BIRT Server
> >  from Actuate! Instantly Supercharge Your Business Reports and
> > Dashboards
> >  with Interactivity, Sharing, Native Excel Exports, App Integration &
> > more
> >  Get technology previously reserved for billion-dollar corporations,
> > FREE
> >
> >
> http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=164703151&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk
> > [1]
> > ___
> >  qooxdoo-devel mailing list
> >  [email protected]
> >  https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/qooxdoo-devel [2]
> >
> >
> >
> > Links:
> > --
> > [1]
> >
> http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=164703151&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk
> > [2] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/qooxdoo-devel
> >
> >
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Re: [qooxdoo-devel] Qooxdoo users

2014-12-05 Thread Loren Schlomer

One thing to remember,

Most open source projects are the efforts of people spanning many miles, 
countries (and possibly continents.)  Coordinating efforts over a public 
mailing system is very natural.

Now, I may be entirely wrong on this, and I hope the qooxdoo guys will 
correct me... but, I understand that all of the core qooxdoo team is 
under one roof at the 1&1 office, communicating primarily face-to-face 
and over private corporate email.  This may prove far more productive 
for their work flow (which I imagine includes more than just qooxdoo 
related tasks) than public mailing lists.  This is not to say they 
couldn't open up their qooxdoo development efforts more, but I imagine 
they would need to separate the qooxdoo project from its corporate 
sponsorship of 1&1.  The decision makers at 1&1 may not be open to that 
idea.

Yes, qooxdoo is an open source project with every sense of the phrase, 
yes it can be forked and turned into something more what you expect an 
open source project to be, but since the core qooxdoo team earns their 
living developing for 1&1, the decision to make qooxdoo development 
cycles more open may currently be beyond the core developers' 
capabilities.

Just something to remember when forming opinions on the state of qooxdoo 
development.


I'm just super glad and happy to have what we have. :)

-ls






On 2014-12-05 09:31, Phyo Arkar wrote:
> Yes , exactly.
> For example , Rethinkdb, their whole development process is very Open
> , everything is on mailing list + github that i can follow every after
> 3 months of not reading mailing list.
> 
> If qooxdoo is that open , many good things will happen.
> 
> On Fri, Dec 5, 2014 at 6:00 PM, John Spackman 
> wrote:
> 
>> Hi Martin & Andreas
>> 
>> Interesting , I am now very curious abot followings.
>> 
>> * Thats means , this can be themed using CSS? (Like Bootstrap
>> CSS?)
>> * How about Layout system , will layout systems of qooxdoo will
>> kept there ? Templating? Can we mix with other template systems
>> (Bootstrap Templates , Zurb Foundation) ?
>> * Will it be easier to mix with other JS?
>> 
>> We are happy with our agile approach and the intermediate results
>> while addressing specific challenges of the website-oriented
>> projects. Thus we like to share this good news, well-aware that many
>> of you won’t be able to benefit from this experimental code base
>> any time soon.
> 
> I find Phyo’s questions above really interesting and relevant, but I
> can’t help thinking that if the dev team’s internal discussions
> were on an open mailing list we’d be much more up to speed already,
> without needing you guys to write a big article(s) with all the
> explanations, justification, example code, etc that a major new
> product would require.
> 
> IMHO having an open dev-only mailing list could be constructive and
> time saving for you, as well as stimulating for us and the project’s
> public face.
> 
> Regards
> John
> 
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Re: [qooxdoo-devel] Qooxdoo users

2014-12-05 Thread Phyo Arkar

Yes , exactly.
For example , Rethinkdb, their whole development process is very Open ,
everything is on mailing list + github that i can follow every after 3
months of not reading mailing list.

If qooxdoo is that open , many good things will happen.


On Fri, Dec 5, 2014 at 6:00 PM, John Spackman 
wrote:

> Hi Martin & Andreas
>
> Interesting , I am now very curious abot followings.
>
>- Thats means , this can be themed using CSS? (Like Bootstrap CSS?)
>- How about Layout system , will layout systems of qooxdoo will kept
>there ? Templating? Can we mix with other template systems (Bootstrap
>Templates , Zurb Foundation) ?
>- Will it be easier to mix with other JS?
>
> We are happy with our agile approach and the intermediate results while
> addressing specific challenges of the website-oriented projects. Thus we
> like to share this good news, well-aware that many of you won’t be able to
> benefit from this experimental code base any time soon.
>
> I find Phyo’s questions above really interesting and relevant, but I can’t
> help thinking that if the dev team’s internal discussions were on an open
> mailing list we’d be much more up to speed already, without needing you
> guys to write a big article(s) with all the explanations, justification,
> example code, etc that a major new product would require.
>
> IMHO having an open dev-only mailing list could be constructive and time
> saving for you, as well as stimulating for us and the project’s public face.
>
> Regards
> John
>
>
>
>
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Re: [qooxdoo-devel] Qooxdoo users

2014-12-05 Thread John Spackman

Hi Martin & Andreas
> Interesting , I am now very curious abot followings.
> 
> Thats means , this can be themed using CSS? (Like Bootstrap CSS?)
> How about Layout system , will layout systems of qooxdoo will kept there ? 
> Templating? Can we mix with other template systems (Bootstrap Templates , 
> Zurb Foundation) ?
> Will it be easier to mix with other JS?
> We are happy with our agile approach and the intermediate results while 
> addressing specific challenges of the website-oriented projects. Thus we like 
> to share this good news, well-aware that many of you won’t be able to benefit 
> from this experimental code base any time soon.
> 

I find Phyo’s questions above really interesting and relevant, but I can’t help 
thinking that if the dev team’s internal discussions were on an open mailing 
list we’d be much more up to speed already, without needing you guys to write a 
big article(s) with all the explanations, justification, example code, etc that 
a major new product would require.

IMHO having an open dev-only mailing list could be constructive and time saving 
for you, as well as stimulating for us and the project’s public face.

Regards
John


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Re: [qooxdoo-devel] Qooxdoo users

2014-12-05 Thread Phyo Arkar

On Fri, Dec 5, 2014 at 2:45 PM, Martin Wittemann 
wrote:

Our common channel of spreading the news is our blog which sure will reach
> more than 20-30 people. ;)

Thanks . Thats what we mean about reaching out to us. I know know now it
exist.

We most of us qooxdoo-users are subscribed to the mailing list. As SEO of
qooxdoo is not optimized, When i searched “qooxdoo next” on google , the
top results only leads to the qooxdoo/next repository (not to the blog) .
That’s why many , won’t even know it exists.

The former qx.Website widgets 
were replaced or merged with the qx.Mobile widgets
, so the latter
ones can now also be used on dynamic websites, even markup-based.

Interesting , I am now very curious abot followings.

   - Thats means , this can be themed using CSS? (Like Bootstrap CSS?)
   - How about Layout system , will layout systems of qooxdoo will kept
   there ? Templating? Can we mix with other template systems (Bootstrap
   Templates , Zurb Foundation) ?
   - Will it be easier to mix with other JS?

 We are happy with our agile approach and the intermediate results while
addressing specific challenges of the website-oriented projects. Thus we
like to share this good news, well-aware that many of you won’t be able to
benefit from this experimental code base any time soon.

Glad to know you guys are happy!!. let us know more so we can be happy too
:)

 
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Re: [qooxdoo-devel] Qooxdoo users

2014-12-05 Thread Martin Wittemann

Hey,
What? where can i find documentation about it. ?? What is that?

Even tho i follow qooxdoo mailing list i don't even know what it is.
Just take a look at the recent blog post about it: 
http://news.qooxdoo.org/website-fundamentals-next-challenges

DEV Teams , please atleast market your awesome project to your dear community 
of just 20-30 active and happy users :D .
Our common channel of spreading the news is our blog which sure will reach more 
than 20-30 people. ;)

Regards,
Martin
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Re: [qooxdoo-devel] Qooxdoo users

2014-12-04 Thread Phyo Arkar

On Thu, Dec 4, 2014 at 2:52 PM, John Spackman 
wrote:

> Qooxdoo “next”


What? where can i find documentation about it. ?? What is that?

Even tho i follow qooxdoo mailing list i don't even know what it is.

DEV Teams , please atleast market your awesome project to your dear
community of just 20-30 active and happy users :D .
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Re: [qooxdoo-devel] Qooxdoo users

2014-12-04 Thread Dietrich Streifert

Am 04.12.2014 um 16:29 schrieb Martin Wittemann:
> We did remove those things in the next repo / branch but not for qooxdoo.
> The next repo is something derived from qooxdoo but has no intention to 
> replace it. So there should be no need to worry about any running apps you 
> guys have out there. I though that was somehow clear with the blog post 
> Andreas posted.
Thank your for clarifying this Martin.

Now I've read the blog post. I may have missed a hint on the mailing 
list regarding this blog post.

Regards
Dietrich


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Re: [qooxdoo-devel] Qooxdoo users

2014-12-04 Thread Martin Wittemann

Hey,
> I followed the commits regarding the next branch for a while and was 
> surprised to see commits and tickets which substantially seem to change 
> qooxdoo's capabilities, like removing the locale handling (as stated it 
> could nowadays simply be done on the backend side) [1][2]. As I have 2 
> (soon 3) qooxdoo based products out there, I'm bothered about the 
> direction qooxdoo may take in the futre, without any chance to discuss 
> the needs other community parts or I may have.

We did remove those things in the next repo / branch but not for qooxdoo.
The next repo is something derived from qooxdoo but has no intention to replace 
it. So there should be no need to worry about any running apps you guys have 
out there. I though that was somehow clear with the blog post Andreas posted.

Regards,
Martin
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Re: [qooxdoo-devel] Qooxdoo users

2014-12-04 Thread Dietrich Streifert

Hi all!

Am 04.12.2014 um 09:22 schrieb John Spackman:
> I very much appreciate your attention, but its clear that there is a lot 
> going on in the dev team and we see almost none of it.  For example, Qooxdoo 
> “next” - maybe I missed something but it was a real surprise to find out 
> about it, and that it had been around for quite some time.
I followed the commits regarding the next branch for a while and was 
surprised to see commits and tickets which substantially seem to change 
qooxdoo's capabilities, like removing the locale handling (as stated it 
could nowadays simply be done on the backend side) [1][2]. As I have 2 
(soon 3) qooxdoo based products out there, I'm bothered about the 
direction qooxdoo may take in the futre, without any chance to discuss 
the needs other community parts or I may have.

So some more "openness" would be really good. Fully agree here!

[1] 
https://github.com/qooxdoo/next/commit/8db052b21c890bc65d610ab59ea793410024dea7
[2] http://bugzilla.qooxdoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=8726

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Re: [qooxdoo-devel] Qooxdoo users

2014-12-04 Thread dev

John,

> It’s a fair comment that people in the community can help publicise Qooxdoo, 
> but not everyone’s able to do it - my guess is that of any community, only a 
> tiny fraction produce visible marketing/promotional materials because only a 
> fraction have the skills & time to write articles as well as the outlet to 
> post the article on.  

Best equipped are the core team and users in a community with a lot of projects 
with qooxdoo as a tool.

> It’s also easy for an outsider to see the size of the community and the rate 
> of messages on the mailing list and be put off; it seems that the only person 
> from the core devs who posts on here regularly is you, and often only in 
> response to specific issues.  I very much appreciate your attention, but its 
> clear that there is a lot going on in the dev team and we see almost none of 
> it.  For example, Qooxdoo “next” - maybe I missed something but it was a real 
> surprise to find out about it, and that it had been around for quite some 
> time.

agree...;-(
I didn't know anything about it either...

> It would help a lot of we could see you guys and what you’re thinking - EG if 
> you kept your internal dev discussions on an open mailing list.  Even if we 
> were not allowed to post to your mailing list, seeing what’s going on would 
> make Qooxdoo seem much more alive and vibrant.  If we, the community, have 
> opinions on what you’re doing we can talk about it on *this* mailing list 
> without interrupting the dev’s conversation — unless of course they chose to 
> get involved.

Very good proposal!!!
Listen to it core team!

Stefan

> John 
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Re: [qooxdoo-devel] Qooxdoo users

2014-12-04 Thread John Spackman

Hi Martin

>> It is true that users can take initiative to promote the framework, though 
>> it is limited as the user community has been limited by the closeness of the 
>> core team. I can see some places that users of the community really speak 
>> well about qooxdoo. So they do... But I do see, but too little of the core 
>> team out there. To be stronger the community needs to be involved in a 
>> higher extent. This initiative can only be taken by the core team. As long 
>> as the core team doesn't open up the community and formerly invite community 
>> users and ask them for specific tasks, nothing will expand. Instead the 
>> community will implode even more.
> Sure, it is limited in some points but I don’t see that these limitation keep 
> anyone from writing blog posts or giving talks about the framework. If 
> someone is writing about qooxdoo, we are always open to link to that post or 
> repost. That would be a good promotion as those posts are not opinionated.

It’s a fair comment that people in the community can help publicise Qooxdoo, 
but not everyone’s able to do it - my guess is that of any community, only a 
tiny fraction produce visible marketing/promotional materials because only a 
fraction have the skills & time to write articles as well as the outlet to post 
the article on.  

It’s also easy for an outsider to see the size of the community and the rate of 
messages on the mailing list and be put off; it seems that the only person from 
the core devs who posts on here regularly is you, and often only in response to 
specific issues.  I very much appreciate your attention, but its clear that 
there is a lot going on in the dev team and we see almost none of it.  For 
example, Qooxdoo “next” - maybe I missed something but it was a real surprise 
to find out about it, and that it had been around for quite some time.

It would help a lot of we could see you guys and what you’re thinking - EG if 
you kept your internal dev discussions on an open mailing list.  Even if we 
were not allowed to post to your mailing list, seeing what’s going on would 
make Qooxdoo seem much more alive and vibrant.  If we, the community, have 
opinions on what you’re doing we can talk about it on *this* mailing list 
without interrupting the dev’s conversation — unless of course they chose to 
get involved.

John 

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Re: [qooxdoo-devel] Qooxdoo users

2014-12-03 Thread William Oprandi

It would be maybe a good thing to have a list of "easy hacks" like
LibreOffice project offers (
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Development/Easy_Hacks)
A list of bugs/enhancements quite easy to resolve. It would be a gain time
for core team to delegate some easy tasks to the community and it can
attract new contributors.

2014-12-03 13:56 GMT+01:00 Phyo Arkar :

>
> On Wed, Dec 3, 2014 at 7:24 PM, Phyo Arkar 
> wrote:
>
>> . There are templates , boilerplate templates
>
>
> I want to mean : There are themes , boilerplate templates,  and Thousands
> of them .
>
>
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Re: [qooxdoo-devel] Qooxdoo users

2014-12-03 Thread Phyo Arkar

On Wed, Dec 3, 2014 at 7:24 PM, Phyo Arkar  wrote:

> . There are templates , boilerplate templates


I want to mean : There are themes , boilerplate templates,  and Thousands
of them .
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Re: [qooxdoo-devel] Qooxdoo users

2014-12-03 Thread Phyo Arkar

On Wed, Dec 3, 2014 at 3:10 PM,   wrote:
> Martin!
>
> It is true that users can take initiative to promote the framework,
though it is limited as the user community has been limited *by the
closeness of the core team*. I can see some places that users of the
community *really speak well about qooxdoo*. So they do... But I do see,
but too little of the core team out there. *To be stronger the community
needs to be involved in a higher extent*. This i*nitiative can only be
taken by the core team*. As long as the core team doesn't open up the
community and formerly *invite community users and ask them for specific
tasks, nothing will expand.* Instead the community will* implode even more.*

Stefen beat me by 3 hr. That exactly what i wanted to say. And well said.

Believe us Martin , if you promote and open to the community only good
thing will happen. Qooxdoo core team will do a lot less work. What we feel
about qooxdoo is , shy . Why too shy to promote this great product?

AngularJS and AngularUI - Frigging awful piece of JS Framework , compare to
qxoo alone, and they promote it like HERO of js framework to save
Javascript.. But huge HUGE  community behind it , thinks nothing compares
to them. I think they don't even know Qooxdoo exists. qooxdoo of 4 years
ago beats it in almost everyway possible but we have like 20-30 community
memebers?

BootStrap , HTML,CSS3 framework with limited set of grid layouts is taking
the Single Page APP UI by strom. There are templates , boilerplate
templates , just copy and paste and modify templates everywhere for
BootStrap. But qooxdoo have only 3 themes and about 2? community theme.
That is not even maintained.

Thanks a lot for this awesome software. But you guys need to let the world
know and Be Proud of it.
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Re: [qooxdoo-devel] Qooxdoo users

2014-12-03 Thread Norbert Schroeder

Hi Martin,

> Sure, it is limited in some points but I don’t see that these limitation keep
> anyone from writing blog posts or giving talks about the framework. If someone
> is writing about qooxdoo, we are always open to link to that post or repost.
> That would be a good promotion as those posts are not opinionated.

3.5 years ago I wrote a general introduction to qooxdoo for my former employer 
[1]. I also sent a short note to Andreas Ecker, telling him about the text and 
where to find it online. However, nobody ever responded, so I got the 
impression that the qooxdoo team is not very keen on any kind of promotion for 
their great product. I never wrote anything like that again

Regards,

Norbert

[1] 
https://www.agon-solutions.de/documents/68283/68494/WP-Agon_Rich-Internetentwicklung-mit-qooxdoo.pdf


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Re: [qooxdoo-devel] Qooxdoo users

2014-12-03 Thread Martin Wittemann

Hey,

> It is true that users can take initiative to promote the framework, though it 
> is limited as the user community has been limited by the closeness of the 
> core team. I can see some places that users of the community really speak 
> well about qooxdoo. So they do... But I do see, but too little of the core 
> team out there. To be stronger the community needs to be involved in a higher 
> extent. This initiative can only be taken by the core team. As long as the 
> core team doesn't open up the community and formerly invite community users 
> and ask them for specific tasks, nothing will expand. Instead the community 
> will implode even more.
Sure, it is limited in some points but I don’t see that these limitation keep 
anyone from writing blog posts or giving talks about the framework. If someone 
is writing about qooxdoo, we are always open to link to that post or repost. 
That would be a good promotion as those posts are not opinionated.

> I sent a proposal for change of the qx.io formatting and typos for about 2 
> weeks ago to make the code more homogenous. I still haven't got a final 
> answer which gives a clear direction, probably because the code is 
> heterogenous at least of this part, or even better been invited to come up 
> with a new standard making it better than it is. I did get an answer saying 
> that "we have done so far..." etc. Not an invitation like: "Wonderful 
> initiative. Can you come up with a proposal we can discuss in the community 
> and if the community thinks it is good changes, we change it." As long as the 
> core team does not involve, stimulate or actively show they want help from 
> the community, users of the community won't be as stupid as we were, on own 
> initiative, come up with proposals... This is the key problem and the major 
> reason why qooxdoo community doesn't grow... in contrary to many other 
> frameworks.

I still have your pull request on my todo list but I hope you understand that a 
pull request about coding style is not that urgent, especially in the 
preparation of a release. It is good to have a homogenous coding style but I 
have seen much worse code than the qooxdoo framework offers in most spots. So 
bare with me when I think that coding style is not our major problem and has to 
wait some time.

Regards,
Martin
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Re: [qooxdoo-devel] Qooxdoo users

2014-12-03 Thread dev

Martin!

It is true that users can take initiative to promote the framework, though it 
is limited as the user community has been limited by the closeness of the core 
team. I can see some places that users of the community really speak well about 
qooxdoo. So they do... But I do see, but too little of the core team out there. 
To be stronger the community needs to be involved in a higher extent. This 
initiative can only be taken by the core team. As long as the core team doesn't 
open up the community and formerly invite community users and ask them for 
specific tasks, nothing will expand. Instead the community will implode even 
more.

I sent a proposal for change of the qx.io formatting and typos for about 2 
weeks ago to make the code more homogenous. I still haven't got a final answer 
which gives a clear direction, probably because the code is heterogenous at 
least of this part, or even better been invited to come up with a new standard 
making it better than it is. I did get an answer saying that "we have done so 
far..." etc. Not an invitation like: "Wonderful initiative. Can you come up 
with a proposal we can discuss in the community and if the community thinks it 
is good changes, we change it." As long as the core team does not involve, 
stimulate or actively show they want help from the community, users of the 
community won't be as stupid as we were, on own initiative, come up with 
proposals... This is the key problem and the major reason why qooxdoo community 
doesn't grow... in contrary to many other frameworks.

I agree with William.

Stefan

> Hey,
>> So Qooxdoo team , can you let more people know about this awesome framework, 
>> which changes programming of Javascript Dramatically .
>> 
>> Like , for example , it is not even features on Todomvc site , which 
>> compares the Js frameworks.
>
> Well, if that would be so easy we would have done it before. ;) But to be 
> honest, our marketing budget is low and we always had our focus on the code 
> instead of talking about it. Maybe thats not the best way to promote a 
> framework but it ended up in the code base we have right now.
> On the other hand, the missing marketing (which we hear a lot) is not only up 
> to us in the core team. Everyone can step up and write posts about qooxdoo, 
> speak on conferences or promote the framework on other channels as well. 
>
> Regards,
> Martin
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Re: [qooxdoo-devel] Qooxdoo users

2014-12-03 Thread woprandi

I think qooxdoo users should also try to promote the framework themselves



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Re: [qooxdoo-devel] Qooxdoo users

2014-12-02 Thread Martin Wittemann

Hey,
> So Qooxdoo team , can you let more people know about this awesome framework, 
> which changes programming of Javascript Dramatically .
> 
> Like , for example , it is not even features on Todomvc site , which compares 
> the Js frameworks.

Well, if that would be so easy we would have done it before. ;) But to be 
honest, our marketing budget is low and we always had our focus on the code 
instead of talking about it. Maybe thats not the best way to promote a 
framework but it ended up in the code base we have right now.
On the other hand, the missing marketing (which we hear a lot) is not only up 
to us in the core team. Everyone can step up and write posts about qooxdoo, 
speak on conferences or promote the framework on other channels as well. 

Regards,
Martin
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Re: [qooxdoo-devel] Qooxdoo users

2014-12-02 Thread Phyo Arkar

On Sun, Nov 30, 2014 at 6:01 AM, Peter Caffin  wrote:

> is the learning curve
> is totally worth it :)
>

Yes , Totally worth it!
None of the new JS framework is integrated like qooxdoo.

So Qooxdoo team , can you let more people know about this awesome
framework, which changes programming of Javascript Dramatically .

Like , for example , it is not even features on Todomvc site , which
compares the Js frameworks.
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Re: [qooxdoo-devel] Qooxdoo users

2014-11-30 Thread Tom Saddul

100% agree. But coming from C#.NET or Java, the learning curve should be
minimal.  It is learning JavaScript that is harder.  Luckily for me, I
started using Qooxdoo using its TypeScript version from jbaron:
https://github.com/jbaron/qx-typed so the learning is far easier because of
the* intellisense* provided by the IDE like Visual Studio or CATS (from same
author).  In just one (1) month, I can say I have achieved more than what I
have expected and I'm super happy that I chose Qooxdoo over other more
popular javascript frameworks.



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Re: [qooxdoo-devel] Qooxdoo users

2014-11-29 Thread Peter Caffin


FWIW, everyone I've shown Qooxdoo to has been impressed.

The only stumbling block is there's quite a learning curve, particularly 
if you're not experienced with Javascript.

The reason Qooxdoo use continues to grow though, is the learning curve 
is totally worth it :)

On 27/11/2014 8:06 pm, Phyo Arkar wrote:
> Our team , 4 people , used qooxdoo since 1.3 , in various products.
> I agree Qooxdoo need to market itself, it can outcompete many of those 
> new frameworks  , since like 2010.
>
> Qooxdoo Class system makes code a lot cleaner than Sancha and Dojo.
>
> Things because qooxdoo have lower user base mainly due to marketing 
> and slow releases. Also missing new HTML5 technologies (Websocket , 
> some CSS3 features etc ) .

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Re: [qooxdoo-devel] Qooxdoo users

2014-11-27 Thread Phyo Arkar

Our team , 4 people , used qooxdoo since 1.3 , in various products.
I agree Qooxdoo need to market itself, it can outcompete many of those new
frameworks  , since like 2010.

Qooxdoo Class system makes code a lot cleaner than Sancha and Dojo.

Things because qooxdoo have lower user base mainly due to marketing and
slow releases. Also missing new HTML5 technologies (Websocket , some CSS3
features etc ) .


On Thu, Nov 27, 2014 at 1:12 AM, bobmanc  wrote:

> The reason I asked was I was considering building a tool similar to Sencha
> Architect for Qooxdoo.
> I was wondering if the market would be big enough to make it worthwhile.
>
>
>
>
> --
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Re: [qooxdoo-devel] Qooxdoo users

2014-11-26 Thread bobmanc

The reason I asked was I was considering building a tool similar to Sencha
Architect for Qooxdoo.
I was wondering if the market would be big enough to make it worthwhile.




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Re: [qooxdoo-devel] Qooxdoo users

2014-11-25 Thread Tobi Oetiker


> On 25.11.2014, at 08:02, Martin Wittemann  wrote:
> 
> Hey,
>> do you have usage statistics of the API browser website ? my guess
>> is that most people using qx for real will be accessing the API
>> browser ... (I know there is a copy in the SDK, but since the
>> online version if readily available, I rarely bother with setting
>> up my own copy).
> 
> Sure, we have google analytics running. But when it comes to the API viewer, 
> we have a lot of URLs and different API viewers hosted (think of all the 
> versions). Anyway, I took the data from last monty (October) and tried to sum 
> up most often used URLs:
> 
> API Viewer: ~6000 page impressions
> Website API Viewer:  ~1000 page impressions
> 
> I’m not sure if that could help us to guess the number of active uses. What 
> do you think?
> 

hi martin

in analytics there are views that attempt to track users ...
that might be interesting, as it even might reveal how the version adoption is 
progressing.

cheers
tobi


> Regards,
> Martin
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Re: [qooxdoo-devel] Qooxdoo users

2014-11-24 Thread Martin Wittemann

Hey,
> do you have usage statistics of the API browser website ? my guess
> is that most people using qx for real will be accessing the API
> browser ... (I know there is a copy in the SDK, but since the
> online version if readily available, I rarely bother with setting
> up my own copy).

Sure, we have google analytics running. But when it comes to the API viewer, we 
have a lot of URLs and different API viewers hosted (think of all the 
versions). Anyway, I took the data from last monty (October) and tried to sum 
up most often used URLs:

API Viewer: ~6000 page impressions
Website API Viewer:  ~1000 page impressions

I’m not sure if that could help us to guess the number of active uses. What do 
you think?

Regards,
Martin

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Re: [qooxdoo-devel] Qooxdoo users

2014-11-23 Thread Tobias Oetiker

Hi Martin,

do you have usage statistics of the API browser website ? my guess
is that most people using qx for real will be accessing the API
browser ... (I know there is a copy in the SDK, but since the
online version if readily available, I rarely bother with setting
up my own copy).

cheers
tobi


Today Martin Wittemann wrote:

>
> > Am 22.11.2014 um 01:54 schrieb bobmanc :
> >
> > does anybody know the approximate number of active users of qooxdoo?
>
> Maybe you can guess any numbers based on the number of downloads. We have 
> most of the time more than 900 downloads a month [1]. Of course, thats only 
> the SDK downloads and only from sourceforge, not from github. And not anyone 
> downloading the SDK could be called a active user. But these numbers show 
> that active people on the mailing list ist not the same as active users. We 
> have experienced that a lot in the past that users of the framework either 
> don?t show up on the list or in a very late state of the project. The truth 
> is somewhere in between I guess but I don?t know.
>
> [1] http://sourceforge.net/projects/qooxdoo/files/stats/timeline
>
> >
> >
> > --
> > View this message in context: 
> > http://qooxdoo.678.n2.nabble.com/Qooxdoo-users-tp7586388.html
> > Sent from the qooxdoo mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
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Re: [qooxdoo-devel] Qooxdoo users

2014-11-23 Thread Martin Wittemann


> Am 22.11.2014 um 01:54 schrieb bobmanc :
> 
> does anybody know the approximate number of active users of qooxdoo?

Maybe you can guess any numbers based on the number of downloads. We have most 
of the time more than 900 downloads a month [1]. Of course, thats only the SDK 
downloads and only from sourceforge, not from github. And not anyone 
downloading the SDK could be called a active user. But these numbers show that 
active people on the mailing list ist not the same as active users. We have 
experienced that a lot in the past that users of the framework either don’t 
show up on the list or in a very late state of the project. The truth is 
somewhere in between I guess but I don’t know.

[1] http://sourceforge.net/projects/qooxdoo/files/stats/timeline

> 
> 
> --
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Re: [qooxdoo-devel] Qooxdoo users

2014-11-23 Thread dev

Hi,

> Right. My question was how many people use the framework. Not how many
> develop it.

There is no registration function for the people using it, so the figure is 
unknown.

Number of downloads does not give it.
Total number of names since the start in this list does not give it.

The closest you can come that figure is to see the number of active names/users 
in this list last 6 months.

Can you explain to me why this figure is relevant to you?

Stefan

>
>
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Re: [qooxdoo-devel] Qooxdoo users

2014-11-23 Thread Tom Saddul


If you use the TypeScript version of QooxDoo from
https://github.com/jbaron/qx-typed, there is no need to compile using
generate.py anymore You will be using QooxDoo just like any Javascript
library like jQuery but this time with typing so you are helped by the
editor with intellisense whenever you start typing qx.



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Re: [qooxdoo-devel] Qooxdoo users

2014-11-23 Thread bobmanc

Right. My question was how many people use the framework. Not how many
develop it.




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Re: [qooxdoo-devel] Qooxdoo users

2014-11-23 Thread dev

just to clarify what I meant...

> I think
>
> 1 is wrong. All open sourced.

It is indeed true opensource, which is fantastic and very generous.
What I meant was joint development is NOT open, though it might be changing in 
the future...

> 2 Main issue is the requirement to have backend support for the frontend 
> technology.
> For example, you don't have to run anything on the backend in order to 
> use AngularJS or jQuery. The libraries are readily available in *.min.js 
> form. Qooxdoo requries you to compile it with your application code.

You are talking about a different topic here.
I was talking about that the community has not been very much encouraged so far 
to contribute.

Remember! qooxdoo is by far the best technically design among frameworks, but 
they seldom win the user race if not joint development is heavily supported.

Stefan

> 3: Agree
>
> Cheers,
>
> Varol
>
>
> On 11/23/2014 02:53 AM, [email protected] wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> This is a question you will be criticized for if answered.
>>
>>> does anybody know the approximate number of active users of qooxdoo?
>> I can not see more than 20-30 active users and another 20 sporadic users.
>>
>> Considering how powerful the framework is, it is a very low number!
>>
>> Possible reason to the low number:
>> 1. closed core code base
>> 2. inactive and dormant community
>> 3. qooxdoo markets itself too little
>>
>> Stefan
>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> View this message in context: 
>>> http://qooxdoo.678.n2.nabble.com/Qooxdoo-users-tp7586388.html
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>>>
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>>
>>
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Re: [qooxdoo-devel] Qooxdoo users

2014-11-23 Thread dev

He asked for the number of active users!

Stefan

> I don't agree with dev, you cannot give a number because much users are not
> active. 
>
>
>
>
> --
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Re: [qooxdoo-devel] Qooxdoo users

2014-11-23 Thread Varol Okan

I think

1 is wrong. All open sourced.

2 Main issue is the requirement to have backend support for the frontend 
technology.
For example, you don't have to run anything on the backend in order to 
use AngularJS or jQuery. The libraries are readily available in *.min.js 
form. Qooxdoo requries you to compile it with your application code.

3: Agree

Cheers,

Varol


On 11/23/2014 02:53 AM, [email protected] wrote:
> Hi,
>
> This is a question you will be criticized for if answered.
>
>> does anybody know the approximate number of active users of qooxdoo?
> I can not see more than 20-30 active users and another 20 sporadic users.
>
> Considering how powerful the framework is, it is a very low number!
>
> Possible reason to the low number:
> 1. closed core code base
> 2. inactive and dormant community
> 3. qooxdoo markets itself too little
>
> Stefan
>
>>
>> --
>> View this message in context: 
>> http://qooxdoo.678.n2.nabble.com/Qooxdoo-users-tp7586388.html
>> Sent from the qooxdoo mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>>
>> --
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>> Get technology previously reserved for billion-dollar corporations, FREE
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>> ___
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>> [email protected]
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/qooxdoo-devel
>
>
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Re: [qooxdoo-devel] Qooxdoo users

2014-11-23 Thread woprandi

I don't agree with dev, you cannot give a number because much users are not
active. 




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Re: [qooxdoo-devel] Qooxdoo users

2014-11-22 Thread dev

Hi,

This is a question you will be criticized for if answered.

> does anybody know the approximate number of active users of qooxdoo?

I can not see more than 20-30 active users and another 20 sporadic users.

Considering how powerful the framework is, it is a very low number!

Possible reason to the low number:
1. closed core code base
2. inactive and dormant community
3. qooxdoo markets itself too little

Stefan

>
>
> --
> View this message in context: 
> http://qooxdoo.678.n2.nabble.com/Qooxdoo-users-tp7586388.html
> Sent from the qooxdoo mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
> --
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