[qubes-users] How to change / swap behavior of Ctrl, Alt, Win, and fn keys?

2017-08-05 Thread Tao Effect
Dear list,

Does anyone have any suggestions on how I might go about changing the behavior 
of the keys mentioned in the subject?

I'm so very used to the OS X keymap and it is, I think, unnecessarily painful 
having to switch between different keyboard layouts.

I would love to remap keys as follows:

Ctrl => fn
Alt => Ctrl
Win => Alt
fn => Win

Any help appreciated!

Thanks so much,
Greg

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Re: [qubes-users] Re: Qubes OS 4.0 first release candidate (rc1) has been released!

2017-08-05 Thread 'PhR' via qubes-users

Hello,

after having problems to install Qubes on my X200 I have installed 4rc1 
on my other laptop (Lenovo W540). Installation was sucessfull and the 
only tweak I needed was to remove iommu=no-igfx from grub boot.


I have uses Qubes 4rc1 now for ~2,5 hours, my feedback so far:

positive:

 * in Qubes 3.2 the whole system froozes for a few seconds when a new
   VM was started.
   In Qubes 4rc1 this seems to be solved.

list of things that might need improvement, meant as constructive 
feedback - of course I am very thanksfull to the work of the Qubes Team.


 * when launching an application from the start menu I would like to
   see a notification about the user interaction. Currently nothing
   happens, if the new apps needs a few seconds to start the user might
   click again
 * Notifications - I haven't seen any notifications at all, like
   starting/stopping of VMs or when a new USB-device has been attached.
   Would like to see the notification from Qubes 3.2 in Qubes 4
 * After setting up various AppVMs, working with templates, I feel that
   Qubes Manager is definitly missing as it allowed me to have a quick
   look, what is currently running and also attaching block devices was
   much easier.
   If I plugin an USB harddrive I see no notification and I need to
   attach devices via terminal, to much user interactions, compared to
   a graphical solution
 * Positioning of Blockdevice and Running VMs widgets:
   I see my self moving the mouse from left to right a lot, just to
   start programs and get information (from the widgets) - again Qubes
   Manager was much more comfortable.
   Is it possible to have something like a desktop widget, showing all
   running AppVMs?
 * IDEA "QuickstartBar": Could we get something like a shortcut so that
   a launch bar will open up, where I can enter either bash commands or
   something like: untrusted:firefox and then Firefox opens in my AppVM
   named untrusted (general syntax: AppVM:Command/Program? task
   completion would even be easier?
 * The AppVM widget is only showing sys-usb, sys-net, sys-firewall, not
   other AppVMs which are running.
 * In the "Start Menu" (left side) I would like to additional commands
   like (Start VM, Shutdown VM, Remove VM) maybe separated or at the
   beginning or end of the menu?
   Remove VM should of cause show a dialog which needs further user
   interaction.
 * The "Create Qubes VM" menu entry could also be enhanced so that we
   have the option to create a clone from an existing VM. Maybe via
   something like an additional option "Clone from "
 * It seems impossible to hide VMs or VM-templates from the "Start
   Menu", whoch could be done via qvm-prefs in Qubes 3.2. Why? This
   setting was very usefull.
 * Working with USB devices: Could we improve the handling of usb
   devices. Currently it seems that it is impossible to add a
   usb-device to a VM without touching the terminal.
   Maybe we need an usb widget or a submenu in the USB-App-VM?
From user perspective I would like to get a notification popup as
   soon as I attach something to my laptop, then allowing me to choose
   with the next click where to attach this device to.
   If I am attaching a device it is most time because I need to get
   this device into an AppVM.
 * Fonts/Display Resolution seems to be different compared to Qubes 3.2.
   My Laptop has a 3K resolution 2880x1620 Pixels. In 4rc1 the qubes
   window frames (which seems to be rendered in dom0) are small, but
   the content in the window (content of the AppVM) is using a bigger
   font (DPI-size).
   How can this be resolved?
 * qvm-top ... seems to be gone, how can I quickly get a list of all
   running VMs?
   something like: qvm-ls --running
 * Copy & Paste between AppVMs:
   I now have to enter the name of the target AppVM when pasting via
   global clipboard (Shift+Ctrl+V). While this adds more security, it
   is a pain for the user, when copying a lot. Could it make possible
   to have the option to get a slightly easier copy process:
   the current appvm, to which the window belongs is already selected
   in the list of the target VM.
   If the user hits Enter two (!) times, the content of clipboard would
   be pasted into this AppVM clipboard.
   Benefit: additional security as not content will be copied by
   coincident (you need to press Enter twice) but easier copy & paste
   process when copying lots of entries between two AppVms.
 * Backup and Restore of VMs should be possible via GUI not only per
   terminal.

feedback so far, I continue to test.

- PhR


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[qubes-users] Problem installing Qubes 4rc1 on Lenovo Thinkpad X200 - Installer hangs with VT-d enabled / without: libxenlight failed to create new domain (with/without iommo-tweak)

2017-08-05 Thread 'P R' via qubes-users
Hello,

I have already raised a question in the thread regarding Qubes 4rc1, but as
the Lenovo series is a common laptop for Qubes it might make sense to open
a dedicated thread for this.

I tried several things in order to get Qubes 4 running on my Lenovo X200
but it seems I am stuck.

I've installed Qubes 4 from USB with VT-d disabled which works but throws
an error in the end and which doesn't allow to start an AppVM:

Start failed: internal error: libxenlight failed to create new domain
'sys-firewall'

I have also tried to create a new Fedora 25 based AppVM (HVM and non-HVM)
and run into the same error.

I have enabled VT-d in the BIOS and rebooted, same error. I have
enabled/disabled iommu=igfx / no-igfx same problem.

Unfortunately it seems that I can't enable VT-d during Qubes installation
as the installer will halt with a black screen when VT-d is enabled.
See here for the hint regarding the Installation of Qubes 3.2 (?):
https://www.qubes-os.org/doc/thinkpad-troubleshooting/

As I didn't have any trouble installing and running Qubes 3.2 on the X200
(with 8 GB RAM) I don't understand what is the problem with Qubes 4.

I've done some crossreading regarding the libxenlight error but didn't come
to a good suggestion what to try next.

- PhR

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Re: [qubes-users] Seeking moderators for unofficial Qubes IRC channels on Freenode and OFTC

2017-08-05 Thread Andrew David Wong
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA512

On 2017-07-20 19:27, Andrew David Wong wrote:
> Dear Qubes Community,
> 
> We're looking for well-known, trustworthy volunteers from the 
> community who would like to be moderators in the unofficial Qubes
> IRC channels on Freenode and OFTC (#qubes on both). We'd like to
> have at least two unrelated moderators who can oversee both
> channels. If you're interested, please let us know.
> 

Thank you to everyone who expressed interest in these positions. Our
IRC moderators will be Jean-Philippe Ouellet, Holger Levsen, and HW42
(as a backup mod due to limited availability). We're now in the
process of receiving control of the channels and assigning moderator
privileges. You should begin to see improvement in the quality of
these channels very soon.

- -- 
Andrew David Wong (Axon)
Community Manager, Qubes OS
https://www.qubes-os.org
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[qubes-users] Re: HCL - 20H2S00700

2017-08-05 Thread sha-265
On Tuesday, February 14, 2017 at 1:03:53 PM UTC+2, Vincent Wiemann wrote:
> This device is an i7 Lenovo E470.
> Intel graphics card needs newer kernel (from unstable repo)...
> GeForce graphics not supported by noveau, yet. Official NVIDIA driver
> fails with memory allocation error under Xen; see also
> https://devtalk.nvidia.com/default/topic/691565/linux/geforce-driver-problem-on-centos-6-4-with-xen-installed
> (even with IGNORE_XEN_PRESENCE-flag set etc.)
> Installation only possible with VNC as text installation mode doesn't
> prompt for encryption password.
> Sleep mode sometimes freezes the device.

How can I install Qubes with VNC?

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Re: [qubes-users] Re: Qubes OS 4.0 first release candidate (rc1) has been released!

2017-08-05 Thread yuraeitha
On Saturday, August 5, 2017 at 4:38:23 PM UTC, cooloutac wrote:
> On Saturday, August 5, 2017 at 12:28:32 PM UTC-4, yura...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Saturday, August 5, 2017 at 4:15:43 PM UTC, cooloutac wrote:
> > > On Saturday, August 5, 2017 at 12:05:58 PM UTC-4, yura...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > On Saturday, August 5, 2017 at 3:56:25 PM UTC, cooloutac wrote:
> > > > > On Saturday, August 5, 2017 at 11:34:32 AM UTC-4, yura...@gmail.com 
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > On Saturday, August 5, 2017 at 3:26:05 PM UTC, cooloutac wrote:
> > > > > > > I'll be disappointed but I'm not going to be mad at them for 
> > > > > > > trying to get paid, they deserve it. 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > But I also wouldn't mind if they turned me into a money asset 
> > > > > > > like windows so they can keep designing it for home users...lol
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > I look at things differently.  You are referring to linux 
> > > > > > > architecture and developers,  while I'm referring to the majority 
> > > > > > > of its users and community members, as the Product.
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > Alright, I respect that, we see some things differently. But the 
> > > > > > discussion is good, it does not have to come down to agreeing in 
> > > > > > the end. 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > I don't like customers being turned into assets though. The way I 
> > > > > > see it, it essentially make people "not people" anymore, customer 
> > > > > > service is out of the window, it's all about cheating and 
> > > > > > manipulating people into making the best use of them, rather than 
> > > > > > making a fair trade between a company and a customer. So I kind of 
> > > > > > black out when I see business models that turn people into assets, 
> > > > > > I really, really don't like that approach.
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > But I do really agree that I wouldn't mind Qubes taking a fee, ask 
> > > > > > for more donations, or focus partly or entirely on business users. 
> > > > > > They do a lot of hard work, and regardless of the target group, the 
> > > > > > change will be for the better of humanity. Perhaps it's asking too 
> > > > > > much for Qubes to focus on both companies and end-users at the same 
> > > > > > time, nontheless, I do hope they can manage to do that.
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > It's obvious they had their hands full on Qubes 4 too, so it might 
> > > > > > just be that and we're reading too much into the issue here at 
> > > > > > hand. But lets see, with time comes answers. I just hope it wiill 
> > > > > > be in good time rather the long wait.
> > > > > 
> > > > > You are going to be someones asset or product as part of nature,  
> > > > > whether you know it or not.
> > > > > 
> > > > > The ends justify the means to me. Especially if it means being able 
> > > > > to use Qubes or not.   
> > > > > 
> > > > > I also think its silly to not support secure boot, simply because the 
> > > > > idea was created by Microsoft.   FSF/Richard Stallman supporters who 
> > > > > are against secure boot,  is like Bernie supporters not voting for 
> > > > > hillary.  Seems more spiteful then practical.
> > > > 
> > > > Well yeah, only if one allows oneself to become a victim. We can oppose 
> > > > and create balance in the world. 
> > > > Also secure boot is entirely pointless in a stateless computer. A 
> > > > non-stateless computer has a lot of closed source firmware which can be 
> > > > either buggy (which closed software have proven to almost always be), 
> > > > and backdoored, which is either illegal, can be abused by other than 
> > > > for the intended, and is at the fringe limit crossing into the realm of 
> > > > human rights. 
> > > > 
> > > > We don't need closed source firmware, it only creates problems, and no 
> > > > benifit or solutions, other than maintaining market shares through 
> > > > force, rather than surviving on good customer service and customer 
> > > > support. 
> > > > We don't need companies that leech on society. 
> > > > 
> > > > I gather you think the world is ruled by bullies, and that you think 
> > > > it's okay. If so, using that perspective, we just have to become the 
> > > > bullies towards to big companies who wants to make use of us. By the 
> > > > end of the day, we the people are what matter, humanity matter, not 
> > > > some greedy individuals behind a large company. Having said that, I'm 
> > > > not a fanatic against big companies, but they must behave, or I'll be 
> > > > against them.
> > > 
> > > You can promote change, but we have to work with what we got right now.
> > > 
> > > And right now secure boot would of stopped hacking teams  insyde bios 
> > > attacks,  which some experts said could be exploited remotely, and would 
> > > of worked on most ami bios as well.   Without it whats the point?  Why 
> > > even bother with Qubes?  Like you said hardware has backdoors, and if 
> > > bios also has no protections.  Whats the point then? 
> > > 
> > > The problem for me is this 

Re: [qubes-users] Re: Qubes OS 4.0 first release candidate (rc1) has been released!

2017-08-05 Thread cooloutac
On Saturday, August 5, 2017 at 12:28:32 PM UTC-4, yura...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Saturday, August 5, 2017 at 4:15:43 PM UTC, cooloutac wrote:
> > On Saturday, August 5, 2017 at 12:05:58 PM UTC-4, yura...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > On Saturday, August 5, 2017 at 3:56:25 PM UTC, cooloutac wrote:
> > > > On Saturday, August 5, 2017 at 11:34:32 AM UTC-4, yura...@gmail.com 
> > > > wrote:
> > > > > On Saturday, August 5, 2017 at 3:26:05 PM UTC, cooloutac wrote:
> > > > > > I'll be disappointed but I'm not going to be mad at them for trying 
> > > > > > to get paid, they deserve it. 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > But I also wouldn't mind if they turned me into a money asset like 
> > > > > > windows so they can keep designing it for home users...lol
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > I look at things differently.  You are referring to linux 
> > > > > > architecture and developers,  while I'm referring to the majority 
> > > > > > of its users and community members, as the Product.
> > > > > 
> > > > > Alright, I respect that, we see some things differently. But the 
> > > > > discussion is good, it does not have to come down to agreeing in the 
> > > > > end. 
> > > > > 
> > > > > I don't like customers being turned into assets though. The way I see 
> > > > > it, it essentially make people "not people" anymore, customer service 
> > > > > is out of the window, it's all about cheating and manipulating people 
> > > > > into making the best use of them, rather than making a fair trade 
> > > > > between a company and a customer. So I kind of black out when I see 
> > > > > business models that turn people into assets, I really, really don't 
> > > > > like that approach.
> > > > > 
> > > > > But I do really agree that I wouldn't mind Qubes taking a fee, ask 
> > > > > for more donations, or focus partly or entirely on business users. 
> > > > > They do a lot of hard work, and regardless of the target group, the 
> > > > > change will be for the better of humanity. Perhaps it's asking too 
> > > > > much for Qubes to focus on both companies and end-users at the same 
> > > > > time, nontheless, I do hope they can manage to do that.
> > > > > 
> > > > > It's obvious they had their hands full on Qubes 4 too, so it might 
> > > > > just be that and we're reading too much into the issue here at hand. 
> > > > > But lets see, with time comes answers. I just hope it wiill be in 
> > > > > good time rather the long wait.
> > > > 
> > > > You are going to be someones asset or product as part of nature,  
> > > > whether you know it or not.
> > > > 
> > > > The ends justify the means to me. Especially if it means being able to 
> > > > use Qubes or not.   
> > > > 
> > > > I also think its silly to not support secure boot, simply because the 
> > > > idea was created by Microsoft.   FSF/Richard Stallman supporters who 
> > > > are against secure boot,  is like Bernie supporters not voting for 
> > > > hillary.  Seems more spiteful then practical.
> > > 
> > > Well yeah, only if one allows oneself to become a victim. We can oppose 
> > > and create balance in the world. 
> > > Also secure boot is entirely pointless in a stateless computer. A 
> > > non-stateless computer has a lot of closed source firmware which can be 
> > > either buggy (which closed software have proven to almost always be), and 
> > > backdoored, which is either illegal, can be abused by other than for the 
> > > intended, and is at the fringe limit crossing into the realm of human 
> > > rights. 
> > > 
> > > We don't need closed source firmware, it only creates problems, and no 
> > > benifit or solutions, other than maintaining market shares through force, 
> > > rather than surviving on good customer service and customer support. 
> > > We don't need companies that leech on society. 
> > > 
> > > I gather you think the world is ruled by bullies, and that you think it's 
> > > okay. If so, using that perspective, we just have to become the bullies 
> > > towards to big companies who wants to make use of us. By the end of the 
> > > day, we the people are what matter, humanity matter, not some greedy 
> > > individuals behind a large company. Having said that, I'm not a fanatic 
> > > against big companies, but they must behave, or I'll be against them.
> > 
> > You can promote change, but we have to work with what we got right now.
> > 
> > And right now secure boot would of stopped hacking teams  insyde bios 
> > attacks,  which some experts said could be exploited remotely, and would of 
> > worked on most ami bios as well.   Without it whats the point?  Why even 
> > bother with Qubes?  Like you said hardware has backdoors, and if bios also 
> > has no protections.  Whats the point then? 
> > 
> > The problem for me is this is not a cool tech experiment.  Its for 
> > practical use.
> 
> ah I see, I follow you now.
> I'm not entirely sure how effective Anti-Evil-Maid is into detecting change 
> in the BIOS/UEFI, perhaps someone can enlighten us on the topic? Can 

Re: [qubes-users] Re: Qubes OS 4.0 first release candidate (rc1) has been released!

2017-08-05 Thread yuraeitha
On Saturday, August 5, 2017 at 4:15:43 PM UTC, cooloutac wrote:
> On Saturday, August 5, 2017 at 12:05:58 PM UTC-4, yura...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Saturday, August 5, 2017 at 3:56:25 PM UTC, cooloutac wrote:
> > > On Saturday, August 5, 2017 at 11:34:32 AM UTC-4, yura...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > On Saturday, August 5, 2017 at 3:26:05 PM UTC, cooloutac wrote:
> > > > > I'll be disappointed but I'm not going to be mad at them for trying 
> > > > > to get paid, they deserve it. 
> > > > > 
> > > > > But I also wouldn't mind if they turned me into a money asset like 
> > > > > windows so they can keep designing it for home users...lol
> > > > > 
> > > > > I look at things differently.  You are referring to linux 
> > > > > architecture and developers,  while I'm referring to the majority of 
> > > > > its users and community members, as the Product.
> > > > 
> > > > Alright, I respect that, we see some things differently. But the 
> > > > discussion is good, it does not have to come down to agreeing in the 
> > > > end. 
> > > > 
> > > > I don't like customers being turned into assets though. The way I see 
> > > > it, it essentially make people "not people" anymore, customer service 
> > > > is out of the window, it's all about cheating and manipulating people 
> > > > into making the best use of them, rather than making a fair trade 
> > > > between a company and a customer. So I kind of black out when I see 
> > > > business models that turn people into assets, I really, really don't 
> > > > like that approach.
> > > > 
> > > > But I do really agree that I wouldn't mind Qubes taking a fee, ask for 
> > > > more donations, or focus partly or entirely on business users. They do 
> > > > a lot of hard work, and regardless of the target group, the change will 
> > > > be for the better of humanity. Perhaps it's asking too much for Qubes 
> > > > to focus on both companies and end-users at the same time, nontheless, 
> > > > I do hope they can manage to do that.
> > > > 
> > > > It's obvious they had their hands full on Qubes 4 too, so it might just 
> > > > be that and we're reading too much into the issue here at hand. But 
> > > > lets see, with time comes answers. I just hope it wiill be in good time 
> > > > rather the long wait.
> > > 
> > > You are going to be someones asset or product as part of nature,  whether 
> > > you know it or not.
> > > 
> > > The ends justify the means to me. Especially if it means being able to 
> > > use Qubes or not.   
> > > 
> > > I also think its silly to not support secure boot, simply because the 
> > > idea was created by Microsoft.   FSF/Richard Stallman supporters who are 
> > > against secure boot,  is like Bernie supporters not voting for hillary.  
> > > Seems more spiteful then practical.
> > 
> > Well yeah, only if one allows oneself to become a victim. We can oppose and 
> > create balance in the world. 
> > Also secure boot is entirely pointless in a stateless computer. A 
> > non-stateless computer has a lot of closed source firmware which can be 
> > either buggy (which closed software have proven to almost always be), and 
> > backdoored, which is either illegal, can be abused by other than for the 
> > intended, and is at the fringe limit crossing into the realm of human 
> > rights. 
> > 
> > We don't need closed source firmware, it only creates problems, and no 
> > benifit or solutions, other than maintaining market shares through force, 
> > rather than surviving on good customer service and customer support. 
> > We don't need companies that leech on society. 
> > 
> > I gather you think the world is ruled by bullies, and that you think it's 
> > okay. If so, using that perspective, we just have to become the bullies 
> > towards to big companies who wants to make use of us. By the end of the 
> > day, we the people are what matter, humanity matter, not some greedy 
> > individuals behind a large company. Having said that, I'm not a fanatic 
> > against big companies, but they must behave, or I'll be against them.
> 
> You can promote change, but we have to work with what we got right now.
> 
> And right now secure boot would of stopped hacking teams  insyde bios 
> attacks,  which some experts said could be exploited remotely, and would of 
> worked on most ami bios as well.   Without it whats the point?  Why even 
> bother with Qubes?  Like you said hardware has backdoors, and if bios also 
> has no protections.  Whats the point then? 
> 
> The problem for me is this is not a cool tech experiment.  Its for practical 
> use.

ah I see, I follow you now.
I'm not entirely sure how effective Anti-Evil-Maid is into detecting change in 
the BIOS/UEFI, perhaps someone can enlighten us on the topic? Can AEM be 
tricked or bypassed? Practically or theoretically? 

Though Joanna (head of Qubes) have said it might just be some years, if I 
remember correctly, before we might see true stateless computers. I'm not sure 
if anyone with resources would want to 

Re: [qubes-users] Re: Qubes OS 4.0 first release candidate (rc1) has been released!

2017-08-05 Thread cooloutac
On Saturday, August 5, 2017 at 12:05:58 PM UTC-4, yura...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Saturday, August 5, 2017 at 3:56:25 PM UTC, cooloutac wrote:
> > On Saturday, August 5, 2017 at 11:34:32 AM UTC-4, yura...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > On Saturday, August 5, 2017 at 3:26:05 PM UTC, cooloutac wrote:
> > > > I'll be disappointed but I'm not going to be mad at them for trying to 
> > > > get paid, they deserve it. 
> > > > 
> > > > But I also wouldn't mind if they turned me into a money asset like 
> > > > windows so they can keep designing it for home users...lol
> > > > 
> > > > I look at things differently.  You are referring to linux architecture 
> > > > and developers,  while I'm referring to the majority of its users and 
> > > > community members, as the Product.
> > > 
> > > Alright, I respect that, we see some things differently. But the 
> > > discussion is good, it does not have to come down to agreeing in the end. 
> > > 
> > > I don't like customers being turned into assets though. The way I see it, 
> > > it essentially make people "not people" anymore, customer service is out 
> > > of the window, it's all about cheating and manipulating people into 
> > > making the best use of them, rather than making a fair trade between a 
> > > company and a customer. So I kind of black out when I see business models 
> > > that turn people into assets, I really, really don't like that approach.
> > > 
> > > But I do really agree that I wouldn't mind Qubes taking a fee, ask for 
> > > more donations, or focus partly or entirely on business users. They do a 
> > > lot of hard work, and regardless of the target group, the change will be 
> > > for the better of humanity. Perhaps it's asking too much for Qubes to 
> > > focus on both companies and end-users at the same time, nontheless, I do 
> > > hope they can manage to do that.
> > > 
> > > It's obvious they had their hands full on Qubes 4 too, so it might just 
> > > be that and we're reading too much into the issue here at hand. But lets 
> > > see, with time comes answers. I just hope it wiill be in good time rather 
> > > the long wait.
> > 
> > You are going to be someones asset or product as part of nature,  whether 
> > you know it or not.
> > 
> > The ends justify the means to me. Especially if it means being able to use 
> > Qubes or not.   
> > 
> > I also think its silly to not support secure boot, simply because the idea 
> > was created by Microsoft.   FSF/Richard Stallman supporters who are against 
> > secure boot,  is like Bernie supporters not voting for hillary.  Seems more 
> > spiteful then practical.
> 
> Well yeah, only if one allows oneself to become a victim. We can oppose and 
> create balance in the world. 
> Also secure boot is entirely pointless in a stateless computer. A 
> non-stateless computer has a lot of closed source firmware which can be 
> either buggy (which closed software have proven to almost always be), and 
> backdoored, which is either illegal, can be abused by other than for the 
> intended, and is at the fringe limit crossing into the realm of human rights. 
> 
> We don't need closed source firmware, it only creates problems, and no 
> benifit or solutions, other than maintaining market shares through force, 
> rather than surviving on good customer service and customer support. 
> We don't need companies that leech on society. 
> 
> I gather you think the world is ruled by bullies, and that you think it's 
> okay. If so, using that perspective, we just have to become the bullies 
> towards to big companies who wants to make use of us. By the end of the day, 
> we the people are what matter, humanity matter, not some greedy individuals 
> behind a large company. Having said that, I'm not a fanatic against big 
> companies, but they must behave, or I'll be against them.

You can promote change, but we have to work with what we got right now.

And right now secure boot would of stopped hacking teams  insyde bios attacks,  
which some experts said could be exploited remotely, and would of worked on 
most ami bios as well.   Without it whats the point?  Why even bother with 
Qubes?  Like you said hardware has backdoors, and if bios also has no 
protections.  Whats the point then? 

The problem for me is this is not a cool tech experiment.  Its for practical 
use.

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Re: [qubes-users] Re: Qubes OS 4.0 first release candidate (rc1) has been released!

2017-08-05 Thread yuraeitha
On Saturday, August 5, 2017 at 3:56:25 PM UTC, cooloutac wrote:
> On Saturday, August 5, 2017 at 11:34:32 AM UTC-4, yura...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Saturday, August 5, 2017 at 3:26:05 PM UTC, cooloutac wrote:
> > > I'll be disappointed but I'm not going to be mad at them for trying to 
> > > get paid, they deserve it. 
> > > 
> > > But I also wouldn't mind if they turned me into a money asset like 
> > > windows so they can keep designing it for home users...lol
> > > 
> > > I look at things differently.  You are referring to linux architecture 
> > > and developers,  while I'm referring to the majority of its users and 
> > > community members, as the Product.
> > 
> > Alright, I respect that, we see some things differently. But the discussion 
> > is good, it does not have to come down to agreeing in the end. 
> > 
> > I don't like customers being turned into assets though. The way I see it, 
> > it essentially make people "not people" anymore, customer service is out of 
> > the window, it's all about cheating and manipulating people into making the 
> > best use of them, rather than making a fair trade between a company and a 
> > customer. So I kind of black out when I see business models that turn 
> > people into assets, I really, really don't like that approach.
> > 
> > But I do really agree that I wouldn't mind Qubes taking a fee, ask for more 
> > donations, or focus partly or entirely on business users. They do a lot of 
> > hard work, and regardless of the target group, the change will be for the 
> > better of humanity. Perhaps it's asking too much for Qubes to focus on both 
> > companies and end-users at the same time, nontheless, I do hope they can 
> > manage to do that.
> > 
> > It's obvious they had their hands full on Qubes 4 too, so it might just be 
> > that and we're reading too much into the issue here at hand. But lets see, 
> > with time comes answers. I just hope it wiill be in good time rather the 
> > long wait.
> 
> You are going to be someones asset or product as part of nature,  whether you 
> know it or not.
> 
> The ends justify the means to me. Especially if it means being able to use 
> Qubes or not.   
> 
> I also think its silly to not support secure boot, simply because the idea 
> was created by Microsoft.   FSF/Richard Stallman supporters who are against 
> secure boot,  is like Bernie supporters not voting for hillary.  Seems more 
> spiteful then practical.

Well yeah, only if one allows oneself to become a victim. We can oppose and 
create balance in the world. 
Also secure boot is entirely pointless in a stateless computer. A non-stateless 
computer has a lot of closed source firmware which can be either buggy (which 
closed software have proven to almost always be), and backdoored, which is 
either illegal, can be abused by other than for the intended, and is at the 
fringe limit crossing into the realm of human rights. 

We don't need closed source firmware, it only creates problems, and no benifit 
or solutions, other than maintaining market shares through force, rather than 
surviving on good customer service and customer support. 
We don't need companies that leech on society. 

I gather you think the world is ruled by bullies, and that you think it's okay. 
If so, using that perspective, we just have to become the bullies towards to 
big companies who wants to make use of us. By the end of the day, we the people 
are what matter, humanity matter, not some greedy individuals behind a large 
company. Having said that, I'm not a fanatic against big companies, but they 
must behave, or I'll be against them.

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Re: [qubes-users] Re: Qubes OS 4.0 first release candidate (rc1) has been released!

2017-08-05 Thread cooloutac
ever hear of the saying cut your nose to spite your face?  Linux communities 
are the epitome of that.

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Re: [qubes-users] Re: Qubes OS 4.0 first release candidate (rc1) has been released!

2017-08-05 Thread cooloutac
The reason why redhat, ubuntu, and gentoo jumped on the secure boot train, not 
just for the security benefits, but because they know if they didn't linux 
would indeed be left out in the cold with nothing to live on.

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Re: [qubes-users] Re: Qubes OS 4.0 first release candidate (rc1) has been released!

2017-08-05 Thread cooloutac
On Saturday, August 5, 2017 at 11:59:19 AM UTC-4, yura...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Saturday, August 5, 2017 at 3:50:18 PM UTC, cooloutac wrote:
> > On Saturday, August 5, 2017 at 11:31:27 AM UTC-4, PR wrote:
> > > Hello,
> > > 
> > > 
> > > I think it makes sense to concentrate more on what we (different user 
> > > types/groups) would like to see, instead of having some kind of 'flame 
> > > war' GUI vs. Terminal.
> > > 
> > > 
> > > The good thing was always that you can built very complicated workflows 
> > > using  the terminal/bash scrips make life easier and that you can have a 
> > > GUI for 80% of the standard tasks for "normal users", which are more 
> > > interested in using their computer as a tool instead of tweaking around.
> > > 
> > > 
> > > We can and should have both:
> > > 1) API/terminal commands for 'advanced users' and
> > > 2) a simple GUI for normal users who just want to use a PC that protects 
> > > their privacy somewhat better than their current Windows 10 Laptop.
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Am 05.08.2017 5:02 nachm. schrieb "cooloutac" :
> > > 
> > > 
> > > The forever problem of linux,  is the self fulfilling prophecies from 
> > > people who want to feel superior over others. 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Disagree, I think that those people are just faster using the terminal.
> > > And those users are technically skilled and have at least basic knowledge 
> > > about an operating system.
> > > 
> > > 
> > > I agree with cooloutac that Qubes has a benefit if it can be used for 
> > > regular tasks without touching the terminal.
> > > Even when using Windows lots of people use Laptops that have been setup 
> > > by experienced users and then handover to them.
> > > They don't bother with tweaking the system, so simplifying the use of 
> > > Qubes would help to get those users on board.
> > > 
> > > 
> > > BUT:
> > > Important point is that additional security/privacy has most time a price 
> > > that it add a small layer of complexity/less usability for the user.
> > > But Qubes is doing a great job to reduce this overhead.
> > > 
> > > 
> > > As far as I have understand the Qubes team statement, it seems that the 
> > > concentrate more on the Qubes Core stuff and having the API/Terminal 
> > > commands, someone can still write a GUI for Qubes like Qubes Manager.
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Honestly I don't understand why it is that hard to Port Qubes Manager 
> > > over to Qubes 4, so that the user can choose:
> > > 
> > > 
> > > - terminal 
> > > - old Qubes manager with maybe a reduced feature set
> > > - new Qubes widgets
> > > - ... ?
> > > 
> > > 
> > > This topic reminds me about the vi vs. emacs discussions. What the heck? 
> > > I use both ;-)
> > > Or the new "Ribbon Bar" from Microsoft which was also not that accepted 
> > > in the beginning.
> > > 
> > > 
> > > - PhR
> > 
> > there is no versus anything, noone is asking to get rid of the terminal?
> > 
> > This is nothing like vi vs emac discussions.   what?
> 
> hmm, I think he was referring to the earlier posts far up above, and not you 
> specifically. 
> But he makes a good point in that matter, both are important if we want to 
> find motivation and resources to make systems that not only reach the 
> advanced users, but also reaching the everyday users.
> One cannot afford not to take the other seriously, both need each others in 
> modern PC systems, especially if we want to survive the next big thing, the 
> next platform coming after smartphones, which is partially already happening 
> right now. There won't be a laptop, desktop or tablet for Linux to live on, 
> if we don't take emerging technologies seriously. The time to stand together 
> is now, and making whole systems that take in both the advanced and everyday 
> users, would be a game changer.

By not taking secure boot seriously you are creating that self fulfilling 
prophecy.

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Re: [qubes-users] Re: Qubes OS 4.0 first release candidate (rc1) has been released!

2017-08-05 Thread yuraeitha
On Saturday, August 5, 2017 at 3:50:18 PM UTC, cooloutac wrote:
> On Saturday, August 5, 2017 at 11:31:27 AM UTC-4, PR wrote:
> > Hello,
> > 
> > 
> > I think it makes sense to concentrate more on what we (different user 
> > types/groups) would like to see, instead of having some kind of 'flame war' 
> > GUI vs. Terminal.
> > 
> > 
> > The good thing was always that you can built very complicated workflows 
> > using  the terminal/bash scrips make life easier and that you can have a 
> > GUI for 80% of the standard tasks for "normal users", which are more 
> > interested in using their computer as a tool instead of tweaking around.
> > 
> > 
> > We can and should have both:
> > 1) API/terminal commands for 'advanced users' and
> > 2) a simple GUI for normal users who just want to use a PC that protects 
> > their privacy somewhat better than their current Windows 10 Laptop.
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Am 05.08.2017 5:02 nachm. schrieb "cooloutac" :
> > 
> > 
> > The forever problem of linux,  is the self fulfilling prophecies from 
> > people who want to feel superior over others. 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Disagree, I think that those people are just faster using the terminal.
> > And those users are technically skilled and have at least basic knowledge 
> > about an operating system.
> > 
> > 
> > I agree with cooloutac that Qubes has a benefit if it can be used for 
> > regular tasks without touching the terminal.
> > Even when using Windows lots of people use Laptops that have been setup by 
> > experienced users and then handover to them.
> > They don't bother with tweaking the system, so simplifying the use of Qubes 
> > would help to get those users on board.
> > 
> > 
> > BUT:
> > Important point is that additional security/privacy has most time a price 
> > that it add a small layer of complexity/less usability for the user.
> > But Qubes is doing a great job to reduce this overhead.
> > 
> > 
> > As far as I have understand the Qubes team statement, it seems that the 
> > concentrate more on the Qubes Core stuff and having the API/Terminal 
> > commands, someone can still write a GUI for Qubes like Qubes Manager.
> > 
> > 
> > Honestly I don't understand why it is that hard to Port Qubes Manager over 
> > to Qubes 4, so that the user can choose:
> > 
> > 
> > - terminal 
> > - old Qubes manager with maybe a reduced feature set
> > - new Qubes widgets
> > - ... ?
> > 
> > 
> > This topic reminds me about the vi vs. emacs discussions. What the heck? I 
> > use both ;-)
> > Or the new "Ribbon Bar" from Microsoft which was also not that accepted in 
> > the beginning.
> > 
> > 
> > - PhR
> 
> there is no versus anything, noone is asking to get rid of the terminal?
> 
> This is nothing like vi vs emac discussions.   what?

hmm, I think he was referring to the earlier posts far up above, and not you 
specifically. 
But he makes a good point in that matter, both are important if we want to find 
motivation and resources to make systems that not only reach the advanced 
users, but also reaching the everyday users.
One cannot afford not to take the other seriously, both need each others in 
modern PC systems, especially if we want to survive the next big thing, the 
next platform coming after smartphones, which is partially already happening 
right now. There won't be a laptop, desktop or tablet for Linux to live on, if 
we don't take emerging technologies seriously. The time to stand together is 
now, and making whole systems that take in both the advanced and everyday 
users, would be a game changer.

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Re: [qubes-users] Re: Qubes OS 4.0 first release candidate (rc1) has been released!

2017-08-05 Thread cooloutac
On Saturday, August 5, 2017 at 11:34:32 AM UTC-4, yura...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Saturday, August 5, 2017 at 3:26:05 PM UTC, cooloutac wrote:
> > I'll be disappointed but I'm not going to be mad at them for trying to get 
> > paid, they deserve it. 
> > 
> > But I also wouldn't mind if they turned me into a money asset like windows 
> > so they can keep designing it for home users...lol
> > 
> > I look at things differently.  You are referring to linux architecture and 
> > developers,  while I'm referring to the majority of its users and community 
> > members, as the Product.
> 
> Alright, I respect that, we see some things differently. But the discussion 
> is good, it does not have to come down to agreeing in the end. 
> 
> I don't like customers being turned into assets though. The way I see it, it 
> essentially make people "not people" anymore, customer service is out of the 
> window, it's all about cheating and manipulating people into making the best 
> use of them, rather than making a fair trade between a company and a 
> customer. So I kind of black out when I see business models that turn people 
> into assets, I really, really don't like that approach.
> 
> But I do really agree that I wouldn't mind Qubes taking a fee, ask for more 
> donations, or focus partly or entirely on business users. They do a lot of 
> hard work, and regardless of the target group, the change will be for the 
> better of humanity. Perhaps it's asking too much for Qubes to focus on both 
> companies and end-users at the same time, nontheless, I do hope they can 
> manage to do that.
> 
> It's obvious they had their hands full on Qubes 4 too, so it might just be 
> that and we're reading too much into the issue here at hand. But lets see, 
> with time comes answers. I just hope it wiill be in good time rather the long 
> wait.

You are going to be someones asset or product as part of nature,  whether you 
know it or not.

The ends justify the means to me. Especially if it means being able to use 
Qubes or not.   

I also think its silly to not support secure boot, simply because the idea was 
created by Microsoft.   FSF/Richard Stallman supporters who are against secure 
boot,  is like Bernie supporters not voting for hillary.  Seems more spiteful 
then practical. 

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Re: [qubes-users] Re: Qubes OS 4.0 first release candidate (rc1) has been released!

2017-08-05 Thread cooloutac
On Saturday, August 5, 2017 at 11:31:27 AM UTC-4, PR wrote:
> Hello,
> 
> 
> I think it makes sense to concentrate more on what we (different user 
> types/groups) would like to see, instead of having some kind of 'flame war' 
> GUI vs. Terminal.
> 
> 
> The good thing was always that you can built very complicated workflows using 
>  the terminal/bash scrips make life easier and that you can have a GUI for 
> 80% of the standard tasks for "normal users", which are more interested in 
> using their computer as a tool instead of tweaking around.
> 
> 
> We can and should have both:
> 1) API/terminal commands for 'advanced users' and
> 2) a simple GUI for normal users who just want to use a PC that protects 
> their privacy somewhat better than their current Windows 10 Laptop.
> 
> 
> 
> Am 05.08.2017 5:02 nachm. schrieb "cooloutac" :
> 
> 
> The forever problem of linux,  is the self fulfilling prophecies from people 
> who want to feel superior over others. 
> 
> 
> 
> Disagree, I think that those people are just faster using the terminal.
> And those users are technically skilled and have at least basic knowledge 
> about an operating system.
> 
> 
> I agree with cooloutac that Qubes has a benefit if it can be used for regular 
> tasks without touching the terminal.
> Even when using Windows lots of people use Laptops that have been setup by 
> experienced users and then handover to them.
> They don't bother with tweaking the system, so simplifying the use of Qubes 
> would help to get those users on board.
> 
> 
> BUT:
> Important point is that additional security/privacy has most time a price 
> that it add a small layer of complexity/less usability for the user.
> But Qubes is doing a great job to reduce this overhead.
> 
> 
> As far as I have understand the Qubes team statement, it seems that the 
> concentrate more on the Qubes Core stuff and having the API/Terminal 
> commands, someone can still write a GUI for Qubes like Qubes Manager.
> 
> 
> Honestly I don't understand why it is that hard to Port Qubes Manager over to 
> Qubes 4, so that the user can choose:
> 
> 
> - terminal 
> - old Qubes manager with maybe a reduced feature set
> - new Qubes widgets
> - ... ?
> 
> 
> This topic reminds me about the vi vs. emacs discussions. What the heck? I 
> use both ;-)
> Or the new "Ribbon Bar" from Microsoft which was also not that accepted in 
> the beginning.
> 
> 
> - PhR

there is no versus anything, noone is asking to get rid of the terminal?

This is nothing like vi vs emac discussions.   what?

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Re: [qubes-users] Re: Qubes OS 4.0 first release candidate (rc1) has been released!

2017-08-05 Thread yuraeitha
On Saturday, August 5, 2017 at 3:31:27 PM UTC, PR wrote:
> Hello,
> 
> 
> I think it makes sense to concentrate more on what we (different user 
> types/groups) would like to see, instead of having some kind of 'flame war' 
> GUI vs. Terminal.
> 
> 
> The good thing was always that you can built very complicated workflows using 
>  the terminal/bash scrips make life easier and that you can have a GUI for 
> 80% of the standard tasks for "normal users", which are more interested in 
> using their computer as a tool instead of tweaking around.
> 
> 
> We can and should have both:
> 1) API/terminal commands for 'advanced users' and
> 2) a simple GUI for normal users who just want to use a PC that protects 
> their privacy somewhat better than their current Windows 10 Laptop.
> 
> 
> 
> Am 05.08.2017 5:02 nachm. schrieb "cooloutac" :
> 
> 
> The forever problem of linux,  is the self fulfilling prophecies from people 
> who want to feel superior over others. 
> 
> 
> 
> Disagree, I think that those people are just faster using the terminal.
> And those users are technically skilled and have at least basic knowledge 
> about an operating system.
> 
> 
> I agree with cooloutac that Qubes has a benefit if it can be used for regular 
> tasks without touching the terminal.
> Even when using Windows lots of people use Laptops that have been setup by 
> experienced users and then handover to them.
> They don't bother with tweaking the system, so simplifying the use of Qubes 
> would help to get those users on board.
> 
> 
> BUT:
> Important point is that additional security/privacy has most time a price 
> that it add a small layer of complexity/less usability for the user.
> But Qubes is doing a great job to reduce this overhead.
> 
> 
> As far as I have understand the Qubes team statement, it seems that the 
> concentrate more on the Qubes Core stuff and having the API/Terminal 
> commands, someone can still write a GUI for Qubes like Qubes Manager.
> 
> 
> Honestly I don't understand why it is that hard to Port Qubes Manager over to 
> Qubes 4, so that the user can choose:
> 
> 
> - terminal 
> - old Qubes manager with maybe a reduced feature set
> - new Qubes widgets
> - ... ?
> 
> 
> This topic reminds me about the vi vs. emacs discussions. What the heck? I 
> use both ;-)
> Or the new "Ribbon Bar" from Microsoft which was also not that accepted in 
> the beginning.
> 
> 
> - PhR

Fully agree, and you make a good point too with the Qubes team having said they 
will focus on the core of Qubes. 
Perhaps the issue here is rather that Qubes seems too closed off and too 
tightly controlled, that no new groups arise to team up with Qubes?

Also most of all, don't want to be too harsh on the Qubes team here, they're 
doing an amazing job. It's just the limbo of lack of communication that is a 
bit iffy, if one may call it that.

Perhaps a professional Strategy Mission/Vision page on the Qubes website would 
help creating clarity rather than having to dig through thousands of forum and 
mail posts?

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Re: [qubes-users] Re: Qubes OS 4.0 first release candidate (rc1) has been released!

2017-08-05 Thread yuraeitha
On Saturday, August 5, 2017 at 3:26:05 PM UTC, cooloutac wrote:
> I'll be disappointed but I'm not going to be mad at them for trying to get 
> paid, they deserve it. 
> 
> But I also wouldn't mind if they turned me into a money asset like windows so 
> they can keep designing it for home users...lol
> 
> I look at things differently.  You are referring to linux architecture and 
> developers,  while I'm referring to the majority of its users and community 
> members, as the Product.

Alright, I respect that, we see some things differently. But the discussion is 
good, it does not have to come down to agreeing in the end. 

I don't like customers being turned into assets though. The way I see it, it 
essentially make people "not people" anymore, customer service is out of the 
window, it's all about cheating and manipulating people into making the best 
use of them, rather than making a fair trade between a company and a customer. 
So I kind of black out when I see business models that turn people into assets, 
I really, really don't like that approach.

But I do really agree that I wouldn't mind Qubes taking a fee, ask for more 
donations, or focus partly or entirely on business users. They do a lot of hard 
work, and regardless of the target group, the change will be for the better of 
humanity. Perhaps it's asking too much for Qubes to focus on both companies and 
end-users at the same time, nontheless, I do hope they can manage to do that.

It's obvious they had their hands full on Qubes 4 too, so it might just be that 
and we're reading too much into the issue here at hand. But lets see, with time 
comes answers. I just hope it wiill be in good time rather the long wait.

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Re: [qubes-users] Re: Qubes OS 4.0 first release candidate (rc1) has been released!

2017-08-05 Thread 'P R' via qubes-users
Hello,

I think it makes sense to concentrate more on what we (different user
types/groups) would like to see, instead of having some kind of 'flame war'
GUI vs. Terminal.

The good thing was always that you can built very complicated workflows
using  the terminal/bash scrips make life easier and that you can have a
GUI for 80% of the standard tasks for "normal users", which are more
interested in using their computer as a tool instead of tweaking around.

We can and should have both:
1) API/terminal commands for 'advanced users' and
2) a simple GUI for normal users who just want to use a PC that protects
their privacy somewhat better than their current Windows 10 Laptop.


Am 05.08.2017 5:02 nachm. schrieb "cooloutac" :

The forever problem of linux,  is the self fulfilling prophecies from
people who want to feel superior over others.


Disagree, I think that those people are just faster using the terminal.
And those users are technically skilled and have at least basic knowledge
about an operating system.

I agree with cooloutac that Qubes has a benefit if it can be used for
regular tasks without touching the terminal.
Even when using Windows lots of people use Laptops that have been setup by
experienced users and then handover to them.
They don't bother with tweaking the system, so simplifying the use of Qubes
would help to get those users on board.

BUT:
Important point is that additional security/privacy has most time a price
that it add a small layer of complexity/less usability for the user.
But Qubes is doing a great job to reduce this overhead.

As far as I have understand the Qubes team statement, it seems that the
concentrate more on the Qubes Core stuff and having the API/Terminal
commands, someone can still write a GUI for Qubes like Qubes Manager.

Honestly I don't understand why it is that hard to Port Qubes Manager over
to Qubes 4, so that the user can choose:

- terminal
- old Qubes manager with maybe a reduced feature set
- new Qubes widgets
- ... ?

This topic reminds me about the vi vs. emacs discussions. What the heck? I
use both ;-)
Or the new "Ribbon Bar" from Microsoft which was also not that accepted in
the beginning.

- PhR

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Re: [qubes-users] Re: Qubes OS 4.0 first release candidate (rc1) has been released!

2017-08-05 Thread cooloutac
I'll be disappointed but I'm not going to be mad at them for trying to get 
paid, they deserve it. 

But I also wouldn't mind if they turned me into a money asset like windows so 
they can keep designing it for home users...lol

I look at things differently.  You are referring to linux architecture and 
developers,  while I'm referring to the majority of its users and community 
members, as the Product.

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[qubes-users] Yubikey in challenge/response mode to unlock LUKS on boot

2017-08-05 Thread the2nd
Hi,

i switched to Qubes OS 3.2 on my notebook some weeks ago. Besides some issues i 
had it works very well.

One problem was to get the installer to install qubes on LVM-on-LUKS. I 
preferred this over the default LUKS-on-LVM setup because you dont have to 
encrypt any LV separately.

After fiddling around some other issues i wanted to use my yubikey to unlock 
the luks partition on boot like i did it before with my ubuntu installation 
(https://github.com/cornelinux/yubikey-luks).

After trying this:
https://github.com/bpereto/ykfde/blob/master/README-dracut.md

Which did not work and besides this does manage some IMHO useless (someone may 
correct me if i am wrong) extra challenges within the initramfs.

And reading this:
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/qubes-users/yubikey$20luks%7Csort:relevance/qubes-users/7pIS_grFZ4s/AlCoPuf-BwAJ

and this:
https://github.com/QubesOS/qubes-issues/issues/2712

I came to the conclusion that there is no working solution yet. So i tried to 
write my own dracut module. The main problem with this was to find the best 
hook in the boot process to send the user password to the yubikey and unlock 
the luks partition. After some testing i got a version which works for my 
purposes.

You can find the module and some install instructions at: 
https://github.com/the2nd/ykluks

Please note that the current version will probably not work with a default 
qubes LUKS-on-LVM installation. But if some experienced user is willing to help 
testing i'll try to come up with a version that supports this too.

Besides the yubikey/luks stuff the module handles the rd.qubes.hide_all_usb 
stuff via its own rd.ykluks.hide_all_usb command line parameter because the 
yubikey is connected via USB and needs to be accessable until we got the 
challenge from it. i am still unsure if this is the best method to implement 
this. So if anyone with a deeper knowledge of qubes/dracut does have a 
better/more secure solution i happy about any help.

Regards
the2nd

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Re: [qubes-users] Re: Qubes OS 4.0 first release candidate (rc1) has been released!

2017-08-05 Thread yuraeitha
On Saturday, August 5, 2017 at 3:02:53 PM UTC, cooloutac wrote:
> On Saturday, August 5, 2017 at 10:48:22 AM UTC-4, yura...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Saturday, August 5, 2017 at 2:34:53 PM UTC, cooloutac wrote:
> > > On Wednesday, August 2, 2017 at 11:43:34 PM UTC-4, Francesco wrote:
> > > > On Wed, Aug 2, 2017 at 9:47 PM, Eva Star  wrote:
> > > > -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> > > > 
> > > > Hash: SHA256
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > On 08/02/2017 03:04 AM, cooloutac wrote:
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > > oh ok I see,  so a taskbar widget or something to replace the
> > > > 
> > > > > manager.  I thought they lost their minds for a second. My
> > > > 
> > > > > immediate thought was what about attaching drives, and seeing if
> > > > 
> > > > > updates available?  Joanna addressed all my concerns but I'm gonna
> > > > 
> > > > > have to wait and see what happens with this.   Hopefully it doesn't
> > > > 
> > > > > turn out to be more confusing then the manager.
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > It is a miscalculation. How about the words "we must make Qubes user
> > > > 
> > > > friendly for all users non IT advanced" and release Qubes without
> > > > 
> > > > manager? :(
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > Maybe, widgets is not a good idea, but Qubes Manager is one of the
> > > > 
> > > > important part that make Qubes useful to manage all vms with mouse.
> > > > 
> > > > Some UX to old one QM + start menu links to right mouse action and it
> > > > 
> > > > will be amazing.
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > Well, I never use the start menu on the left lower side of the screen 
> > > > because it is too complicated, too many items and needs customization 
> > > > that I am too lazy to do or have better things to do. I do everything 
> > > > with the Qubes Manager that is so well organized and compact. I am 
> > > > afraid that the new arrangement may make things more difficult to find 
> > > > for a new user since items are spread over different buttons/places.   
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > I would suggest to mitigate this risk putting links to the other places 
> > > > on the widget/window that opens when you click on one of them. You can 
> > > > separate things, but better put links to find them again.
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > Also I imagine that somewhere I'll find the list of VMs. There please 
> > > > 1. keep the "run command in VM" choice and 
> > > > 2. add something new: the chance to show only preferred VM
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > The first is very important to avoid using the start button.
> > > > 
> > > > The second is important to simplify the view and speed up the most 
> > > > common routines
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > Cooloutac made me smile telling of his mother and family using Qubes.  
> > > > I had my wife using Qubes for some years, but recently she rised up 
> > > > against Qubes telling that it is too complicated for her to be able to 
> > > > master it without help. She wanted a Mac.  Really it is impossible to 
> > > > maintain Qubes without the CLI and this makes it beyond limits for most 
> > > > people.  But perhaps if we are able to find a stable architecture and 
> > > > then Qubes matures enough, this may change. But we are not there yet.
> > > > 
> > > > Best
> > > > 
> > > > Fran
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > - --
> > > > 
> > > > Regards
> > > > 
> > > > -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
> > > > 
> > > > Version: GnuPG v2
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > iQIcBAEBCAAGBQJZgnLPAAoJEGSin3PC/C0AyIUP/AuxhZfxWdFGYzLzUQX2fzn/
> > > > 
> > > > 5ajxXWVNtTXWgpmUqzu1Ov/HMp9W7hFerw4GXwMotXDDXrIbf+8WEayS+q+SdXBn
> > > > 
> > > > qanSZ0EmBkwoFVptP+1TNQqQIcRLEF3gN3o3vq8tGaq2dUZ4HW9hSXBUZ71WcjXR
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> > > > 
> > > > WzmeaSTrYjNkBHypYjgpCXT6MQLRXEmlqX8OVxI5jopP7tYNZh5+bKp+1/U9vccJ
> > > > 
> > > > q4ddOTDlaCwY5bmQgWl05MNI4+OWr8xBlrfVCMmfxVO5dOBvoCjCrMTEySh3sPL7
> > > > 
> > > > gGMcT1349yiIllPPP0vhdm+0d0n0hWLR160WExQoF+oUgCbXFnf5sBT1bjWxXBOl
> > > > 
> > > > EEwg6IMElKgjI0jG0izCX7M3rn5m1H95KOGR2nn+IyJIzgJwk4+4YTWgFFfnwQyX
> > > > 
> > > > k9EcN8vffpokLz9I3u2qZSdDDYz71KVRAHMxL3h2WxEro7RVRtOcbpXO3ctcsdV0
> > > > 
> > > > QZfEwW2SAeZz798InY/Qb+7NmtpSsZUl3rCYUY7i5mubkGgnbtklCSUEzxZZ+4hx
> > > > 
> > > > SD6nV8tTjrNMxSNEytvIYd6wJZYrHkvA7Kf7KtNtxa7+mMr89LzL5qLHk/W15R14
> > > > 
> > > > iXk4BnVvkdfLntZ+Pa84
> > > > 
> > > > =ILr0
> > > > 
> > > > -END PGP SIGNATURE-
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > --
> > > > 
> > > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google 
> > > > Groups "qubes-users" group.
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> > > > 
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> > > > 

Re: [qubes-users] Re: Qubes OS 4.0 first release candidate (rc1) has been released!

2017-08-05 Thread cooloutac
I remember when the tor dev Isis on irc, when I asked if anyone used Qubes, 
told me she was going to try it out but thought it was too hard to use. She 
started asking me how easy it was to install and use.   I was in total shock!  
This someone who is a genius compared to me and she thought Qubes would be too 
hard for her to use?  Then I realized its because thats what most people on irc 
thought.   And thats because of that age old linux problem of people wanting to 
feel special for using it.

ANY DUMMY CAN USE QUBES  Any old dumb computer illiterate windows user can 
learn how to use Qubes in 10 minutes.  If you think I am exaggerating you 
really need to come down to earth, you're not special.

The hardrd part of Qubes is forcing yourself to compartmentalize and thinking 
of the system in that way. Some people can't do it.   But that has nothing to 
do with a technical learning curve, which is no different then windows.  But it 
seems people in this community want to change that, probably for the reasons I 
stated in my previous post.

Although itl isn't the typical linux type, and from Joanna's github post it 
seems like its more of her thinking the Qubes-manager is ugly and bulky.  So 
i'm crossing my fingers we don't lose any UI functionality.   

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Re: [qubes-users] Re: Qubes OS 4.0 first release candidate (rc1) has been released!

2017-08-05 Thread cooloutac
On Saturday, August 5, 2017 at 10:48:22 AM UTC-4, yura...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Saturday, August 5, 2017 at 2:34:53 PM UTC, cooloutac wrote:
> > On Wednesday, August 2, 2017 at 11:43:34 PM UTC-4, Francesco wrote:
> > > On Wed, Aug 2, 2017 at 9:47 PM, Eva Star  wrote:
> > > -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> > > 
> > > Hash: SHA256
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > On 08/02/2017 03:04 AM, cooloutac wrote:
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > > oh ok I see,  so a taskbar widget or something to replace the
> > > 
> > > > manager.  I thought they lost their minds for a second. My
> > > 
> > > > immediate thought was what about attaching drives, and seeing if
> > > 
> > > > updates available?  Joanna addressed all my concerns but I'm gonna
> > > 
> > > > have to wait and see what happens with this.   Hopefully it doesn't
> > > 
> > > > turn out to be more confusing then the manager.
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > It is a miscalculation. How about the words "we must make Qubes user
> > > 
> > > friendly for all users non IT advanced" and release Qubes without
> > > 
> > > manager? :(
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Maybe, widgets is not a good idea, but Qubes Manager is one of the
> > > 
> > > important part that make Qubes useful to manage all vms with mouse.
> > > 
> > > Some UX to old one QM + start menu links to right mouse action and it
> > > 
> > > will be amazing.
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Well, I never use the start menu on the left lower side of the screen 
> > > because it is too complicated, too many items and needs customization 
> > > that I am too lazy to do or have better things to do. I do everything 
> > > with the Qubes Manager that is so well organized and compact. I am afraid 
> > > that the new arrangement may make things more difficult to find for a new 
> > > user since items are spread over different buttons/places.   
> > > 
> > > 
> > > I would suggest to mitigate this risk putting links to the other places 
> > > on the widget/window that opens when you click on one of them. You can 
> > > separate things, but better put links to find them again.
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Also I imagine that somewhere I'll find the list of VMs. There please 
> > > 1. keep the "run command in VM" choice and 
> > > 2. add something new: the chance to show only preferred VM
> > > 
> > > 
> > > The first is very important to avoid using the start button.
> > > 
> > > The second is important to simplify the view and speed up the most common 
> > > routines
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Cooloutac made me smile telling of his mother and family using Qubes.  I 
> > > had my wife using Qubes for some years, but recently she rised up against 
> > > Qubes telling that it is too complicated for her to be able to master it 
> > > without help. She wanted a Mac.  Really it is impossible to maintain 
> > > Qubes without the CLI and this makes it beyond limits for most people.  
> > > But perhaps if we are able to find a stable architecture and then Qubes 
> > > matures enough, this may change. But we are not there yet.
> > > 
> > > Best
> > > 
> > > Fran
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > - --
> > > 
> > > Regards
> > > 
> > > -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
> > > 
> > > Version: GnuPG v2
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > iQIcBAEBCAAGBQJZgnLPAAoJEGSin3PC/C0AyIUP/AuxhZfxWdFGYzLzUQX2fzn/
> > > 
> > > 5ajxXWVNtTXWgpmUqzu1Ov/HMp9W7hFerw4GXwMotXDDXrIbf+8WEayS+q+SdXBn
> > > 
> > > qanSZ0EmBkwoFVptP+1TNQqQIcRLEF3gN3o3vq8tGaq2dUZ4HW9hSXBUZ71WcjXR
> > > 
> > > g95QUBBpl05/l//Vozu0GEUxpLBrzAhji95awd39vn/2BRKr6q4pGlNsi6BdqgCJ
> > > 
> > > WzmeaSTrYjNkBHypYjgpCXT6MQLRXEmlqX8OVxI5jopP7tYNZh5+bKp+1/U9vccJ
> > > 
> > > q4ddOTDlaCwY5bmQgWl05MNI4+OWr8xBlrfVCMmfxVO5dOBvoCjCrMTEySh3sPL7
> > > 
> > > gGMcT1349yiIllPPP0vhdm+0d0n0hWLR160WExQoF+oUgCbXFnf5sBT1bjWxXBOl
> > > 
> > > EEwg6IMElKgjI0jG0izCX7M3rn5m1H95KOGR2nn+IyJIzgJwk4+4YTWgFFfnwQyX
> > > 
> > > k9EcN8vffpokLz9I3u2qZSdDDYz71KVRAHMxL3h2WxEro7RVRtOcbpXO3ctcsdV0
> > > 
> > > QZfEwW2SAeZz798InY/Qb+7NmtpSsZUl3rCYUY7i5mubkGgnbtklCSUEzxZZ+4hx
> > > 
> > > SD6nV8tTjrNMxSNEytvIYd6wJZYrHkvA7Kf7KtNtxa7+mMr89LzL5qLHk/W15R14
> > > 
> > > iXk4BnVvkdfLntZ+Pa84
> > > 
> > > =ILr0
> > > 
> > > -END PGP SIGNATURE-
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > --
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> > > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
> > 
> > I'm being honest man.  The only time we ever have to use the cli,  is if we 
> > forget to restart the sys-usb and shut it down by accident.   She has the 
> > command 

Re: [qubes-users] Re: Qubes OS 4.0 first release candidate (rc1) has been released!

2017-08-05 Thread yuraeitha
On Saturday, August 5, 2017 at 2:34:53 PM UTC, cooloutac wrote:
> On Wednesday, August 2, 2017 at 11:43:34 PM UTC-4, Francesco wrote:
> > On Wed, Aug 2, 2017 at 9:47 PM, Eva Star  wrote:
> > -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> > 
> > Hash: SHA256
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > On 08/02/2017 03:04 AM, cooloutac wrote:
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > > oh ok I see,  so a taskbar widget or something to replace the
> > 
> > > manager.  I thought they lost their minds for a second. My
> > 
> > > immediate thought was what about attaching drives, and seeing if
> > 
> > > updates available?  Joanna addressed all my concerns but I'm gonna
> > 
> > > have to wait and see what happens with this.   Hopefully it doesn't
> > 
> > > turn out to be more confusing then the manager.
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > It is a miscalculation. How about the words "we must make Qubes user
> > 
> > friendly for all users non IT advanced" and release Qubes without
> > 
> > manager? :(
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Maybe, widgets is not a good idea, but Qubes Manager is one of the
> > 
> > important part that make Qubes useful to manage all vms with mouse.
> > 
> > Some UX to old one QM + start menu links to right mouse action and it
> > 
> > will be amazing.
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Well, I never use the start menu on the left lower side of the screen 
> > because it is too complicated, too many items and needs customization that 
> > I am too lazy to do or have better things to do. I do everything with the 
> > Qubes Manager that is so well organized and compact. I am afraid that the 
> > new arrangement may make things more difficult to find for a new user since 
> > items are spread over different buttons/places.   
> > 
> > 
> > I would suggest to mitigate this risk putting links to the other places on 
> > the widget/window that opens when you click on one of them. You can 
> > separate things, but better put links to find them again.
> > 
> > 
> > Also I imagine that somewhere I'll find the list of VMs. There please 
> > 1. keep the "run command in VM" choice and 
> > 2. add something new: the chance to show only preferred VM
> > 
> > 
> > The first is very important to avoid using the start button.
> > 
> > The second is important to simplify the view and speed up the most common 
> > routines
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Cooloutac made me smile telling of his mother and family using Qubes.  I 
> > had my wife using Qubes for some years, but recently she rised up against 
> > Qubes telling that it is too complicated for her to be able to master it 
> > without help. She wanted a Mac.  Really it is impossible to maintain Qubes 
> > without the CLI and this makes it beyond limits for most people.  But 
> > perhaps if we are able to find a stable architecture and then Qubes matures 
> > enough, this may change. But we are not there yet.
> > 
> > Best
> > 
> > Fran
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > - --
> > 
> > Regards
> > 
> > -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
> > 
> > Version: GnuPG v2
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > iQIcBAEBCAAGBQJZgnLPAAoJEGSin3PC/C0AyIUP/AuxhZfxWdFGYzLzUQX2fzn/
> > 
> > 5ajxXWVNtTXWgpmUqzu1Ov/HMp9W7hFerw4GXwMotXDDXrIbf+8WEayS+q+SdXBn
> > 
> > qanSZ0EmBkwoFVptP+1TNQqQIcRLEF3gN3o3vq8tGaq2dUZ4HW9hSXBUZ71WcjXR
> > 
> > g95QUBBpl05/l//Vozu0GEUxpLBrzAhji95awd39vn/2BRKr6q4pGlNsi6BdqgCJ
> > 
> > WzmeaSTrYjNkBHypYjgpCXT6MQLRXEmlqX8OVxI5jopP7tYNZh5+bKp+1/U9vccJ
> > 
> > q4ddOTDlaCwY5bmQgWl05MNI4+OWr8xBlrfVCMmfxVO5dOBvoCjCrMTEySh3sPL7
> > 
> > gGMcT1349yiIllPPP0vhdm+0d0n0hWLR160WExQoF+oUgCbXFnf5sBT1bjWxXBOl
> > 
> > EEwg6IMElKgjI0jG0izCX7M3rn5m1H95KOGR2nn+IyJIzgJwk4+4YTWgFFfnwQyX
> > 
> > k9EcN8vffpokLz9I3u2qZSdDDYz71KVRAHMxL3h2WxEro7RVRtOcbpXO3ctcsdV0
> > 
> > QZfEwW2SAeZz798InY/Qb+7NmtpSsZUl3rCYUY7i5mubkGgnbtklCSUEzxZZ+4hx
> > 
> > SD6nV8tTjrNMxSNEytvIYd6wJZYrHkvA7Kf7KtNtxa7+mMr89LzL5qLHk/W15R14
> > 
> > iXk4BnVvkdfLntZ+Pa84
> > 
> > =ILr0
> > 
> > -END PGP SIGNATURE-
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > --
> > 
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
> > "qubes-users" group.
> > 
> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
> > email to qubes-users...@googlegroups.com.
> > 
> > To post to this group, send email to qubes...@googlegroups.com.
> > 
> > To view this discussion on the web visit 
> > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/qubes-users/7a4c1304-cbcb-e447-97dc-9db848eae1fd%40openmailbox.org.
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
> 
> I'm being honest man.  The only time we ever have to use the cli,  is if we 
> forget to restart the sys-usb and shut it down by accident.   She has the 
> command written on the wall to  alt-f2,  xterm,  qvm-start sys-usb.   Only 
> command we ever use on occasion, and thats only cause we using mouse proxy in 
> the sys-usb.

Honest or not, I believe you that this is sufficient for your needs. But keep 
in mind other people use software differently, not everyone use it the same 
way, or have the same needs for that matter. 


Re: [qubes-users] Re: Qubes OS 4.0 first release candidate (rc1) has been released!

2017-08-05 Thread cooloutac
On Friday, August 4, 2017 at 9:25:03 PM UTC-4, Francesco wrote:
> On Thu, Aug 3, 2017 at 12:18 PM, Unman  wrote:
> 
> 
> On Thu, Aug 03, 2017 at 12:43:31AM -0300, Franz wrote:
> 
> > On Wed, Aug 2, 2017 at 9:47 PM, Eva Star  wrote:
> 
> >
> 
> > > -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> 
> > > Hash: SHA256
> 
> > >
> 
> > > On 08/02/2017 03:04 AM, cooloutac wrote:
> 
> > >
> 
> > > > oh ok I see,  so a taskbar widget or something to replace the
> 
> > > > manager.  I thought they lost their minds for a second. My
> 
> > > > immediate thought was what about attaching drives, and seeing if
> 
> > > > updates available?  Joanna addressed all my concerns but I'm gonna
> 
> > > > have to wait and see what happens with this.   Hopefully it doesn't
> 
> > > > turn out to be more confusing then the manager.
> 
> > >
> 
> > > It is a miscalculation. How about the words "we must make Qubes user
> 
> > > friendly for all users non IT advanced" and release Qubes without
> 
> > > manager? :(
> 
> > >
> 
> > > Maybe, widgets is not a good idea, but Qubes Manager is one of the
> 
> > > important part that make Qubes useful to manage all vms with mouse.
> 
> > > Some UX to old one QM + start menu links to right mouse action and it
> 
> > > will be amazing.
> 
> > >
> 
> > >
> 
> > Well, I never use the start menu on the left lower side of the screen
> 
> > because it is too complicated, too many items and needs customization that
> 
> > I am too lazy to do or have better things to do. I do everything with the
> 
> > Qubes Manager that is so well organized and compact. I am afraid that the
> 
> > new arrangement may make things more difficult to find for a new user since
> 
> > items are spread over different buttons/places.
> 
> >
> 
> > I would suggest to mitigate this risk putting links to the other places on
> 
> > the widget/window that opens when you click on one of them. You can
> 
> > separate things, but better put links to find them again.
> 
> >
> 
> > Also I imagine that somewhere I'll find the list of VMs. There please
> 
> > 1. keep the "run command in VM" choice and
> 
> > 2. add something new: the chance to show only preferred VM
> 
> >
> 
> > The first is very important to avoid using the start button.
> 
> > The second is important to simplify the view and speed up the most common
> 
> > routines
> 
> >
> 
> > Cooloutac made me smile telling of his mother and family using Qubes.  I
> 
> > had my wife using Qubes for some years, but recently she rised up against
> 
> > Qubes telling that it is too complicated for her to be able to master it
> 
> > without help. She wanted a Mac.  Really it is impossible to maintain Qubes
> 
> > without the CLI and this makes it beyond limits for most people.  But
> 
> > perhaps if we are able to find a stable architecture and then Qubes matures
> 
> > enough, this may change. But we are not there yet.
> 
> > Best
> 
> > Fran
> 
> >
> 
> 
> 
> I completely disagree with you, and I'm with cooloutac on this.
> 
> I have a number of Qubes users who are fine, and NEVER touch the command
> 
> line. (Most of them would go to pieces at the prospect.)
> 
> 
> Sorry, but I do not believe that. How can your users perform the following 
> basic required actions without a CLI:
> 
>  1. verify iso
> 2. put the iso on a usb stick
> 3. print (you need a custom DVM)
> 4. scan 
> 
> 5. update templates after EOL
> 
> 6. update dom0 and templates when the same Manager command does not work for 
> some reason. How many times it happened? 
> 
> 7. solve various issues when something simply does not work as expected, such 
> as the last one with the wrong kernel when you Unman kindly helped me to 
> solve it with the terminal because it did not work with the Manager 
> 
> 
>  Most of them
> 
> rarely touch the Manager.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How can they update templates and dom0 without touching the Manager?
> 
> 
> You users may be able to use Qubes only because you kindly help them with the 
> above and other issues. Nothing wrong with that of course, you are a very 
> nice person, but they are not autonomous. If they have to travel a couple of 
> months and something wrong happens, as with my wife that had wifi dead, then 
> they are unable to solve it. Worse,  NOBODY is able to help because when they 
> see Qubes they declare inability.  In that case I was lucky to be able on the 
> phone to tell her to connect with ethernet and upgrade Fedora 24 to Fedora 25 
> and it fixed it. But it was just luck that it worked and that she was able to 
> correctly do what I told her. What was broken? No idea.
> 
> 
> Without you, coouloutac  or even me, always ready to help, how can a normal 
> person use Qubes without using the CLI. No way. Now Qubes is still a project 
> for geeks. Too many issues. And it is obvious that this state cannot improve 
> until we are obliged to continuously change architecture such as the last one 
> release 4 for the Xen 

Re: [qubes-users] Re: Qubes OS 4.0 first release candidate (rc1) has been released!

2017-08-05 Thread cooloutac
On Wednesday, August 2, 2017 at 11:43:34 PM UTC-4, Francesco wrote:
> On Wed, Aug 2, 2017 at 9:47 PM, Eva Star  wrote:
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> 
> Hash: SHA256
> 
> 
> 
> On 08/02/2017 03:04 AM, cooloutac wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> > oh ok I see,  so a taskbar widget or something to replace the
> 
> > manager.  I thought they lost their minds for a second. My
> 
> > immediate thought was what about attaching drives, and seeing if
> 
> > updates available?  Joanna addressed all my concerns but I'm gonna
> 
> > have to wait and see what happens with this.   Hopefully it doesn't
> 
> > turn out to be more confusing then the manager.
> 
> 
> 
> It is a miscalculation. How about the words "we must make Qubes user
> 
> friendly for all users non IT advanced" and release Qubes without
> 
> manager? :(
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe, widgets is not a good idea, but Qubes Manager is one of the
> 
> important part that make Qubes useful to manage all vms with mouse.
> 
> Some UX to old one QM + start menu links to right mouse action and it
> 
> will be amazing.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well, I never use the start menu on the left lower side of the screen because 
> it is too complicated, too many items and needs customization that I am too 
> lazy to do or have better things to do. I do everything with the Qubes 
> Manager that is so well organized and compact. I am afraid that the new 
> arrangement may make things more difficult to find for a new user since items 
> are spread over different buttons/places.   
> 
> 
> I would suggest to mitigate this risk putting links to the other places on 
> the widget/window that opens when you click on one of them. You can separate 
> things, but better put links to find them again.
> 
> 
> Also I imagine that somewhere I'll find the list of VMs. There please 
> 1. keep the "run command in VM" choice and 
> 2. add something new: the chance to show only preferred VM
> 
> 
> The first is very important to avoid using the start button.
> 
> The second is important to simplify the view and speed up the most common 
> routines
> 
> 
> 
> Cooloutac made me smile telling of his mother and family using Qubes.  I had 
> my wife using Qubes for some years, but recently she rised up against Qubes 
> telling that it is too complicated for her to be able to master it without 
> help. She wanted a Mac.  Really it is impossible to maintain Qubes without 
> the CLI and this makes it beyond limits for most people.  But perhaps if we 
> are able to find a stable architecture and then Qubes matures enough, this 
> may change. But we are not there yet.
> 
> Best
> 
> Fran
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> - --
> 
> Regards
> 
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
> 
> Version: GnuPG v2
> 
> 
> 
> iQIcBAEBCAAGBQJZgnLPAAoJEGSin3PC/C0AyIUP/AuxhZfxWdFGYzLzUQX2fzn/
> 
> 5ajxXWVNtTXWgpmUqzu1Ov/HMp9W7hFerw4GXwMotXDDXrIbf+8WEayS+q+SdXBn
> 
> qanSZ0EmBkwoFVptP+1TNQqQIcRLEF3gN3o3vq8tGaq2dUZ4HW9hSXBUZ71WcjXR
> 
> g95QUBBpl05/l//Vozu0GEUxpLBrzAhji95awd39vn/2BRKr6q4pGlNsi6BdqgCJ
> 
> WzmeaSTrYjNkBHypYjgpCXT6MQLRXEmlqX8OVxI5jopP7tYNZh5+bKp+1/U9vccJ
> 
> q4ddOTDlaCwY5bmQgWl05MNI4+OWr8xBlrfVCMmfxVO5dOBvoCjCrMTEySh3sPL7
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> 
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> 
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> 
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> 
> iXk4BnVvkdfLntZ+Pa84
> 
> =ILr0
> 
> -END PGP SIGNATURE-
> 
> 
> 
> --
> 
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
> "qubes-users" group.
> 
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
> email to qubes-users...@googlegroups.com.
> 
> To post to this group, send email to qubes...@googlegroups.com.
> 
> To view this discussion on the web visit 
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/qubes-users/7a4c1304-cbcb-e447-97dc-9db848eae1fd%40openmailbox.org.
> 
> 
> 
> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

I'm being honest man.  The only time we ever have to use the cli,  is if we 
forget to restart the sys-usb and shut it down by accident.   She has the 
command written on the wall to  alt-f2,  xterm,  qvm-start sys-usb.   Only 
command we ever use on occasion, and thats only cause we using mouse proxy in 
the sys-usb.

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Re: [qubes-users] Re: Qubes OS 4.0 first release candidate (rc1) has been released!

2017-08-05 Thread cooloutac
On Wednesday, August 2, 2017 at 11:43:34 PM UTC-4, Francesco wrote:
> On Wed, Aug 2, 2017 at 9:47 PM, Eva Star  wrote:
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> 
> Hash: SHA256
> 
> 
> 
> On 08/02/2017 03:04 AM, cooloutac wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> > oh ok I see,  so a taskbar widget or something to replace the
> 
> > manager.  I thought they lost their minds for a second. My
> 
> > immediate thought was what about attaching drives, and seeing if
> 
> > updates available?  Joanna addressed all my concerns but I'm gonna
> 
> > have to wait and see what happens with this.   Hopefully it doesn't
> 
> > turn out to be more confusing then the manager.
> 
> 
> 
> It is a miscalculation. How about the words "we must make Qubes user
> 
> friendly for all users non IT advanced" and release Qubes without
> 
> manager? :(
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe, widgets is not a good idea, but Qubes Manager is one of the
> 
> important part that make Qubes useful to manage all vms with mouse.
> 
> Some UX to old one QM + start menu links to right mouse action and it
> 
> will be amazing.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well, I never use the start menu on the left lower side of the screen because 
> it is too complicated, too many items and needs customization that I am too 
> lazy to do or have better things to do. I do everything with the Qubes 
> Manager that is so well organized and compact. I am afraid that the new 
> arrangement may make things more difficult to find for a new user since items 
> are spread over different buttons/places.   
> 
> 
> I would suggest to mitigate this risk putting links to the other places on 
> the widget/window that opens when you click on one of them. You can separate 
> things, but better put links to find them again.
> 
> 
> Also I imagine that somewhere I'll find the list of VMs. There please 
> 1. keep the "run command in VM" choice and 
> 2. add something new: the chance to show only preferred VM
> 
> 
> The first is very important to avoid using the start button.
> 
> The second is important to simplify the view and speed up the most common 
> routines
> 
> 
> 
> Cooloutac made me smile telling of his mother and family using Qubes.  I had 
> my wife using Qubes for some years, but recently she rised up against Qubes 
> telling that it is too complicated for her to be able to master it without 
> help. She wanted a Mac.  Really it is impossible to maintain Qubes without 
> the CLI and this makes it beyond limits for most people.  But perhaps if we 
> are able to find a stable architecture and then Qubes matures enough, this 
> may change. But we are not there yet.
> 
> Best
> 
> Fran
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> - --
> 
> Regards
> 
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
> 
> Version: GnuPG v2
> 
> 
> 
> iQIcBAEBCAAGBQJZgnLPAAoJEGSin3PC/C0AyIUP/AuxhZfxWdFGYzLzUQX2fzn/
> 
> 5ajxXWVNtTXWgpmUqzu1Ov/HMp9W7hFerw4GXwMotXDDXrIbf+8WEayS+q+SdXBn
> 
> qanSZ0EmBkwoFVptP+1TNQqQIcRLEF3gN3o3vq8tGaq2dUZ4HW9hSXBUZ71WcjXR
> 
> g95QUBBpl05/l//Vozu0GEUxpLBrzAhji95awd39vn/2BRKr6q4pGlNsi6BdqgCJ
> 
> WzmeaSTrYjNkBHypYjgpCXT6MQLRXEmlqX8OVxI5jopP7tYNZh5+bKp+1/U9vccJ
> 
> q4ddOTDlaCwY5bmQgWl05MNI4+OWr8xBlrfVCMmfxVO5dOBvoCjCrMTEySh3sPL7
> 
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> 
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> 
> k9EcN8vffpokLz9I3u2qZSdDDYz71KVRAHMxL3h2WxEro7RVRtOcbpXO3ctcsdV0
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> 
> SD6nV8tTjrNMxSNEytvIYd6wJZYrHkvA7Kf7KtNtxa7+mMr89LzL5qLHk/W15R14
> 
> iXk4BnVvkdfLntZ+Pa84
> 
> =ILr0
> 
> -END PGP SIGNATURE-
> 
> 
> 
> --
> 
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
> "qubes-users" group.
> 
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
> email to qubes-users...@googlegroups.com.
> 
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> 
> To view this discussion on the web visit 
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/qubes-users/7a4c1304-cbcb-e447-97dc-9db848eae1fd%40openmailbox.org.
> 
> 
> 
> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

I always wished the start menu was organized identical to the qubes-manger.  
IMO thats what made it confusing for some.

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[qubes-users] Re: Qubes gets completely stuck few minutes into usage

2017-08-05 Thread kb
I added the microcode from intel website, converted using iucode_tools, to the 
xen configuration (and copied file next to EFI binary) using the rescue mode on 
the install USB (with the help of another USB stick), and  Qubes still 
freezes.

So the problem is not with the microcode.

On Saturday, August 5, 2017 at 2:12:43 PM UTC+2, k...@karelbilek.com wrote:
> This is result of `xl dmesg` - with the default xen logging levels
> 
> http://termbin.com/gck1
> 
> This is result of `dmesg` in dom0
> 
> http://termbin.com/pptq
> 
> Those are however from a state before the freeze, nothing is freezing so far. 
> I am not sure how to capture dmesg right before the freeze; maybe some 
> infinite loop that keeps on writing them to files? That won't help, if the 
> CPU is stuck

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[qubes-users] Feedback: Qubes 4rc1 on coreboot

2017-08-05 Thread David Hobach

Dear users,

so I tested the new 4.0rc1 on a T530 with coreboot & SeaBios as payload:

It installed perfectly fine, then on first boot I ran into the issue 
from https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/qubes-users/jfQovXpzCq8 :
After installation Grub is loaded, I selected an entry, the screen 
remains blank. Reboot after 2-3s.


I managed to fix that by removing the iommu=no-gfx line from the xen 
kernel parameters in the grub menu. What exactly did I do with that? So 
my Intel GPU now also uses VT-d? Is this a problem?

Anyway it looked like a Xen bug to me.

Then the installer for the 1st time configuration hang at "Executing 
Qubes configuration", mouse became unusable --> Reboot.


Installer pops up again, this time it all goes through & surprisingly 
quick, xfce starts, yay...


I accidentally click on "One empty panel..." --> hrmpf, ok I get an 
empty panel and an empty screen apart from the wallpaper - who needs that?


Trying to find out whether VT-d is enabled on command-line - ah, 
qubes-hcl is not installed. -_-


xl info shows virt_caps = hvm_directio, so VT-d seems to work.

Thanks @devs, I will have a deeper look soon!

KR
David

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Re: [qubes-users] Qubes OS 4.0 first release candidate (rc1) has been released!

2017-08-05 Thread yuraeitha
On Saturday, August 5, 2017 at 8:28:37 AM UTC, Marek Marczykowski-Górecki wrote:
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> Hash: SHA256
> 
> On Sat, Aug 05, 2017 at 04:04:27AM -0400, P R wrote:
> > Hello Marek,
> > 
> > Am 05.08.2017 9:44 vorm. schrieb "Marek Marczykowski-Górecki" <
> > marma...@invisiblethingslab.com>:
> > 
> > On Fri, Aug 04, 2017 at 10:28:45PM
> > > Start failed: internal error: libxenlight failed to create new domain
> > > 'sys-firewall'
> > 
> > Make sure you have VT-x and VT-d enabled in BIOS.
> > 
> > 
> > Indeed, I have checked BIOS setting and vt-d was disabled for some strange
> > reason (it was enabled under Qubes 3.2 before).
> > 
> > If I try to start the AppVMs and also the Fedora-25 Template VM I get the
> > same error.
> > As I also got the message at the end of the Qubes installation process, do
> > you suggest to reinstall, now that vt-d is enabled?
> > 
> > Another strange issue is that I can only see 'Start' in the list of
> > available applications in all Fedora VMs.
> > 
> > As I haven't read this before, it seems that something is broken.
> > Guess reinstalling  is the best option??
> 
> Probably yes - without VT-x and VT-d, initial configuration failed.
> 
> - -- 
> Best Regards,
> Marek Marczykowski-Górecki
> Invisible Things Lab
> A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
> Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
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Marek, no ill intentions meant here, but the concerns of the release isn't just 
technical ones. There are questions regarding which target group whom Qubes 
want to spend time and resources on.
Will these issues not be addressed? Are there no one in the Qubes team whom 
work with with public relation role, to address these issues,, especially 
during a major release? 

Again, no ill intentions here, but it would be nice to know if your focus is 
now entirely business users, or if you also intend to make a system for the 
everyday users as originally planned. 
Do regular users take a backseat now? or are both being kept in focus? 

This is not a a complaint, but rather, it would just be nice to know rather 
than keeping it a secret. I do not believe you intend to make it a secret, but 
it can come across as such, that's why I request a statement on the matter.

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[qubes-users] Re: Qubes gets completely stuck few minutes into usage

2017-08-05 Thread kb
This is result of `xl dmesg` - with the default xen logging levels

http://termbin.com/gck1

This is result of `dmesg` in dom0

http://termbin.com/pptq

Those are however from a state before the freeze, nothing is freezing so far. I 
am not sure how to capture dmesg right before the freeze; maybe some infinite 
loop that keeps on writing them to files? That won't help, if the CPU is stuck

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[qubes-users] Qubes gets completely stuck few minutes into usage

2017-08-05 Thread kb
I have installed Qubes OS on my low level notebook for experimenting. It does 
not work.

My notebook is hp 250 G6, the processor is Intel Celeron N3060.

Except for UEFI, that I had to set up with `efi=attr=uc` xen option, 
installation works fine and always finishes (I tried several times already). 
However, after installation and initial configuration, Qubes "crashes" few 
minutes after boot, mouse gets stuck, nothing is responsive.

When I talked about this on IRC a week ago, someone recommended to add 
`ucode=scan` as xen option - that didn't work. They also recommended to update 
BIOS.

It took me a week to figure out how to update BIOS (since HP instructions don't 
work and the updater is windows-only), but I finally managed to do it, and the 
symptoms are still the same, Qubes gets stuck.

I also have microcode from intel website and I could somehow try to specify it 
to xen options - I see it could be possible from here - 
http://xenbits.xen.org/docs/4.2-testing/misc/efi.html - but I am not sure what 
exactly does "relative to location of EFI binary" means - which binary? - and 
which of the files in the microcode zip this is. Also I am not sure if wrong 
microcode is the actual reason for the error anyway.

If you tell me how, I could try to paste here some error messages (something 
like dmesg?), but I have little experience with debugging xen.

It's strange that installation always works, but Qubes itself always gets stuck.

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Re: [qubes-users] Qubes OS 4.0 first release candidate (rc1) has been released!

2017-08-05 Thread 'P R' via qubes-users
Additional information, I forgot to mention:

Am 05.08.2017 12:49 nachm. schrieb "P R" :

Hello,

Am 05.08.2017 10:28 vorm. schrieb "Marek Marczykowski-Górecki" <
marma...@invisiblethingslab.com>:

(...)
Probably yes - without VT-x and VT-d, initial configuration failed.


I have no restarted installation on my Lenovo X200 with VT-x and VT-d
enabled but it seems that the installation hangs after booting up.
I have removed rhgb quiet and set console=vga to see what is happening.
After the first few lines the displays clears and I get a black screen
while the drive LED is on (so there seems to be some activity, but nothing
happens.

I remember that there were some issues with installing Qubes on a X200.
(...)


When I boot with VT-d disabled the Qubes 4 installer works and is booting
into the Graphical installation GUI.

So it seems that there is a problem launching the installer with VT-d
enabled.
But without VT-d I get error messages after the installation has finished,
which means that I am currently out of luck installation Qubes 4 on my X200.

:-/

- PhR

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Re: [qubes-users] Qubes OS 4.0 first release candidate (rc1) has been released!

2017-08-05 Thread 'P R' via qubes-users
Hello,

Am 05.08.2017 10:28 vorm. schrieb "Marek Marczykowski-Górecki" <
marma...@invisiblethingslab.com>:

(...)
Probably yes - without VT-x and VT-d, initial configuration failed.


I have no restarted installation on my Lenovo X200 with VT-x and VT-d
enabled but it seems that the installation hangs after booting up.
I have removed rhgb quiet and set console=vga to see what is happening.
After the first few lines the displays clears and I get a black screen
while the drive LED is on (so there seems to be some activity, but nothing
happens.

I remember that there were some issues with installing Qubes on a X200.

Question: is there any setting I can tweak during grub boot to be able to
run the Qubes OS installed with VT-x and VT-d enabled?

Anyone else tried to install Qubes 4 on a Lenovo X200?

- PhR


- --
Best Regards,
Marek Marczykowski-Górecki
Invisible Things Lab
A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
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Re: [qubes-users] Qubes OS 4.0 first release candidate (rc1) has been released!

2017-08-05 Thread Marek Marczykowski-Górecki
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA256

On Sat, Aug 05, 2017 at 04:04:27AM -0400, P R wrote:
> Hello Marek,
> 
> Am 05.08.2017 9:44 vorm. schrieb "Marek Marczykowski-Górecki" <
> marma...@invisiblethingslab.com>:
> 
> On Fri, Aug 04, 2017 at 10:28:45PM
> > Start failed: internal error: libxenlight failed to create new domain
> > 'sys-firewall'
> 
> Make sure you have VT-x and VT-d enabled in BIOS.
> 
> 
> Indeed, I have checked BIOS setting and vt-d was disabled for some strange
> reason (it was enabled under Qubes 3.2 before).
> 
> If I try to start the AppVMs and also the Fedora-25 Template VM I get the
> same error.
> As I also got the message at the end of the Qubes installation process, do
> you suggest to reinstall, now that vt-d is enabled?
> 
> Another strange issue is that I can only see 'Start' in the list of
> available applications in all Fedora VMs.
> 
> As I haven't read this before, it seems that something is broken.
> Guess reinstalling  is the best option??

Probably yes - without VT-x and VT-d, initial configuration failed.

- -- 
Best Regards,
Marek Marczykowski-Górecki
Invisible Things Lab
A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
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Re: [qubes-users] Qubes OS 4.0 first release candidate (rc1) has been released!

2017-08-05 Thread 'P R' via qubes-users
Hello Marek,

Am 05.08.2017 9:44 vorm. schrieb "Marek Marczykowski-Górecki" <
marma...@invisiblethingslab.com>:

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA256

On Fri, Aug 04, 2017 at 10:28:45PM
> Start failed: internal error: libxenlight failed to create new domain
> 'sys-firewall'

Make sure you have VT-x and VT-d enabled in BIOS.


Indeed, I have checked BIOS setting and vt-d was disabled for some strange
reason (it was enabled under Qubes 3.2 before).

If I try to start the AppVMs and also the Fedora-25 Template VM I get the
same error.
As I also got the message at the end of the Qubes installation process, do
you suggest to reinstall, now that vt-d is enabled?

Another strange issue is that I can only see 'Start' in the list of
available applications in all Fedora VMs.

As I haven't read this before, it seems that something is broken.
Guess reinstalling  is the best option??

- PhR

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Re: [qubes-users] Qubes OS 4.0 first release candidate (rc1) has been released!

2017-08-05 Thread Marek Marczykowski-Górecki
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA256

On Fri, Aug 04, 2017 at 10:28:45PM -0400, P R wrote:
> I installed Qubes 4rc1 on my Lenovo X200, Installation took some time, but
> successful.
> 
> After the first boot I choosed to configure sys-net, sys-firewall, sys-usb.
> After a few minutes I got an error message (attached).
> I was able to login into Qubes afterwards but I can't start any VM except
> sys-net:
> 
> qvm-start sys-firewall, results in:
> 
> Start failed: internal error: libxenlight failed to create new domain
> 'sys-firewall'

Make sure you have VT-x and VT-d enabled in BIOS.

- -- 
Best Regards,
Marek Marczykowski-Górecki
Invisible Things Lab
A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
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