Re: [qubes-users] How to Setup Wireless

[Yuraeitha]

On Friday, November 24, 2017 at 3:15:06 PM UTC, Ray Joseph wrote:
> Yuraeitha,
> 
> 
> Thank you.  That was great detail.  
> 
> 
> I think I will redirect output to one continuos file to collect all VM info 
> and use that file to record my progress.
> 
> 
> My biggest obstacle is that when the machine boots up, I do not always get a 
> keyboard (laptop).  Plugging in a USB keyboard and mouse does not always work
>   
> Maybe this is related to the VMs.  My fist install of V4 was with a docking 
> station attached.  Keyboard and mouse functionality was intermittent but if 
> the embedded set did not work, I could plug kbd into the laptop USB slots or 
> docking station.  To fix this, I reinstalled V4 without the docking station.  
> The kbd is less predictable/controllable.  
> 
> 
> In both cases, I have found that repeated reboots sometimes production es a 
> functioning keyboard.  I have also found that letting the laptop sit for a 
> while will sometimes provide the keyboard.  This latter feature is what leads 
> me to consider that service VMs may be at play. 
> 
> 
> I have "newly" loaded the latest two versions of Debian over 30 times and 3 
> installs of Qubes-os.  I am open to experimenting.  My challenge with Debian 
> was getting wireless to work with Xen bridging.  
> 
> 
> On Nov 24, 2017 4:02 AM, "Yuraeitha"  wrote:
> On Friday, November 24, 2017 at 2:01:18 AM UTC, Ray Joseph wrote:
> 
> > Yuraeitha,
> 
> >
> 
> > Thank you.  All of that was news.  The need to run all VMs as HVM is the 
> > only one that seems to be a concern.  When I get wifi working, I never lose 
> > it.
> 
> >     This was a fresh install and I am testing with this machine.
> 
> >
> 
> > I haven't been able to find how to convert existing VMs to HVM.  Please 
> > suggest where I might find this.  I've been going through docs and have not 
> > found it.
> 
> >
> 
> > Ray
> 
> 
> 
> Good to hear you got stable WiFi :)
> 
> 
> 
> Almost all (if not all) the docs are currently out-of-date when it comes to 
> Qubes 4, but up-to-date when it comes to Qubes 3.2.
> 
> 
> 
> This is why there is currently no doc for changing PV to HVM, or vice versa. 
> HVM is prefered for security in Qubes 4, however both modes can give 
> different hardware trouble. For example I personally get issues running PV, 
> despite having PV working flawlessly back in Qubes 3.2. Others from what I 
> can read might have issues with HVM, and need to fall back to PV instead.
> 
> 
> 
> That's why you can switch to whichever mode is preferred. But in terms of 
> security HVM is better than PV. However HVM is not perfect either, but 
> nontheless an improvement over PV. From what I've seen the developers 
> discuss, it seems like the plan is to move towards PVH in a future Qubes 
> release. This is in turn an improvement over HVM. So PV < HVM < PVH. So you 
> want HVM for now, but can change to PVH in a future Qubes release, probably 
> with the same command by then.
> 
> 
> 
> Unfortunately there is no easy way to print out which VM is in PV or HVM. At 
> least, I haven't found it if there is any. The usual 'qvm-ls' command, 
> usually used to print VM information like disk usages, network use, template 
> use, etc. still appears to be in Qubes 3.2. version. For example a PV/HVM 
> print in qvm-ls would seem like something extremely useful to add into the 
> qvm-ls tool, so my guess is it's still something that needs fixing. 
> Especially when PVH is added to the mix in a future Qubes release. the 
> format, for example 'qvm-ls --format-help' doesn't give any PV/HVM 
> information either in any of the various flags to print more details of 
> different kinds. (btw, the qvm-ls --format disk' command is useful if you 
> want to know how much each VM is using disk space, now that the Qubes Manager 
> has been removed in Qubes 4. It can be troublesome if one of your VM's is 
> eating up a lot of disk space and you can't find which one, especially on 
> small SSD drives. That command can help with that.
> 
> 
> 
> Anyway, back to the PV/HVM issue. The command to print PV/HVM, if you're not 
> familiar with the command already, then it can also give other VM 
> information, try type 'qvm-prefs vm-name' on whichever vm you want to check 
> VM preferences on. You'll see the virt_mode in here for the PV/HVM, along 
> with various other VM specific preferences for that VM.
> 
> 
> 
> Optionally; for less terminal spam, you can type in this instead:
> 
> qvm-prefs vm-name virt_mode
> 
> 
> 
> If it gives you back PV print in terminal chat, then use keyboard arrow-up, 
> so you can re-use the same command again, and then add HVM afterwards, so it 
> becomes like this
> 
> 
> 
> qvm-prefs vm-name virt_mode HVM
> 
> 
> 
> Then repeat, go through all your VM's that might be in a PV state, be it 
> TemplateVM's, AappVMs, ServiceVM's, DisposableVM's, etc.
> 
> Probably all your VM's originating from Qubes 4, are already set to HVM, but 
> almost 

Re: [qubes-users] How to Setup Wireless

[Yuraeitha]

On Friday, November 24, 2017 at 3:15:06 PM UTC, Ray Joseph wrote:
> Yuraeitha,
> 
> 
> Thank you.  That was great detail.  
> 
> 
> I think I will redirect output to one continuos file to collect all VM info 
> and use that file to record my progress.
> 
> 
> My biggest obstacle is that when the machine boots up, I do not always get a 
> keyboard (laptop).  Plugging in a USB keyboard and mouse does not always work
>   
> Maybe this is related to the VMs.  My fist install of V4 was with a docking 
> station attached.  Keyboard and mouse functionality was intermittent but if 
> the embedded set did not work, I could plug kbd into the laptop USB slots or 
> docking station.  To fix this, I reinstalled V4 without the docking station.  
> The kbd is less predictable/controllable.  
> 
> 
> In both cases, I have found that repeated reboots sometimes production es a 
> functioning keyboard.  I have also found that letting the laptop sit for a 
> while will sometimes provide the keyboard.  This latter feature is what leads 
> me to consider that service VMs may be at play. 
> 
> 
> I have "newly" loaded the latest two versions of Debian over 30 times and 3 
> installs of Qubes-os.  I am open to experimenting.  My challenge with Debian 
> was getting wireless to work with Xen bridging.  
> 
> 
> On Nov 24, 2017 4:02 AM, "Yuraeitha"  wrote:
> On Friday, November 24, 2017 at 2:01:18 AM UTC, Ray Joseph wrote:
> 
> > Yuraeitha,
> 
> >
> 
> > Thank you.  All of that was news.  The need to run all VMs as HVM is the 
> > only one that seems to be a concern.  When I get wifi working, I never lose 
> > it.
> 
> >     This was a fresh install and I am testing with this machine.
> 
> >
> 
> > I haven't been able to find how to convert existing VMs to HVM.  Please 
> > suggest where I might find this.  I've been going through docs and have not 
> > found it.
> 
> >
> 
> > Ray
> 
> 
> 
> Good to hear you got stable WiFi :)
> 
> 
> 
> Almost all (if not all) the docs are currently out-of-date when it comes to 
> Qubes 4, but up-to-date when it comes to Qubes 3.2.
> 
> 
> 
> This is why there is currently no doc for changing PV to HVM, or vice versa. 
> HVM is prefered for security in Qubes 4, however both modes can give 
> different hardware trouble. For example I personally get issues running PV, 
> despite having PV working flawlessly back in Qubes 3.2. Others from what I 
> can read might have issues with HVM, and need to fall back to PV instead.
> 
> 
> 
> That's why you can switch to whichever mode is preferred. But in terms of 
> security HVM is better than PV. However HVM is not perfect either, but 
> nontheless an improvement over PV. From what I've seen the developers 
> discuss, it seems like the plan is to move towards PVH in a future Qubes 
> release. This is in turn an improvement over HVM. So PV < HVM < PVH. So you 
> want HVM for now, but can change to PVH in a future Qubes release, probably 
> with the same command by then.
> 
> 
> 
> Unfortunately there is no easy way to print out which VM is in PV or HVM. At 
> least, I haven't found it if there is any. The usual 'qvm-ls' command, 
> usually used to print VM information like disk usages, network use, template 
> use, etc. still appears to be in Qubes 3.2. version. For example a PV/HVM 
> print in qvm-ls would seem like something extremely useful to add into the 
> qvm-ls tool, so my guess is it's still something that needs fixing. 
> Especially when PVH is added to the mix in a future Qubes release. the 
> format, for example 'qvm-ls --format-help' doesn't give any PV/HVM 
> information either in any of the various flags to print more details of 
> different kinds. (btw, the qvm-ls --format disk' command is useful if you 
> want to know how much each VM is using disk space, now that the Qubes Manager 
> has been removed in Qubes 4. It can be troublesome if one of your VM's is 
> eating up a lot of disk space and you can't find which one, especially on 
> small SSD drives. That command can help with that.
> 
> 
> 
> Anyway, back to the PV/HVM issue. The command to print PV/HVM, if you're not 
> familiar with the command already, then it can also give other VM 
> information, try type 'qvm-prefs vm-name' on whichever vm you want to check 
> VM preferences on. You'll see the virt_mode in here for the PV/HVM, along 
> with various other VM specific preferences for that VM.
> 
> 
> 
> Optionally; for less terminal spam, you can type in this instead:
> 
> qvm-prefs vm-name virt_mode
> 
> 
> 
> If it gives you back PV print in terminal chat, then use keyboard arrow-up, 
> so you can re-use the same command again, and then add HVM afterwards, so it 
> becomes like this
> 
> 
> 
> qvm-prefs vm-name virt_mode HVM
> 
> 
> 
> Then repeat, go through all your VM's that might be in a PV state, be it 
> TemplateVM's, AappVMs, ServiceVM's, DisposableVM's, etc.
> 
> Probably all your VM's originating from Qubes 4, are already set to HVM, but 
> almost 

Re: [qubes-users] How to Setup Wireless

[Ray Joseph]

Yuraeitha,

Thank you.  That was great detail.

I think I will redirect output to one continuos file to collect all VM info
and use that file to record my progress.

My biggest obstacle is that when the machine boots up, I do not always get
a keyboard (laptop).  Plugging in a USB keyboard and mouse does not always
work

Maybe this is related to the VMs.  My fist install of V4 was with a docking
station attached.  Keyboard and mouse functionality was intermittent but if
the embedded set did not work, I could plug kbd into the laptop USB slots
or docking station.  To fix this, I reinstalled V4 without the docking
station.  The kbd is less predictable/controllable.

In both cases, I have found that repeated reboots sometimes production es a
functioning keyboard.  I have also found that letting the laptop sit for a
while will sometimes provide the keyboard.  This latter feature is what
leads me to consider that service VMs may be at play.

I have "newly" loaded the latest two versions of Debian over 30 times and 3
installs of Qubes-os.  I am open to experimenting.  My challenge with
Debian was getting wireless to work with Xen bridging.

On Nov 24, 2017 4:02 AM, "Yuraeitha"  wrote:

> On Friday, November 24, 2017 at 2:01:18 AM UTC, Ray Joseph wrote:
> > Yuraeitha,
> >
> > Thank you.  All of that was news.  The need to run all VMs as HVM is the
> only one that seems to be a concern.  When I get wifi working, I never lose
> it.
> > This was a fresh install and I am testing with this machine.
> >
> > I haven't been able to find how to convert existing VMs to HVM.  Please
> suggest where I might find this.  I've been going through docs and have not
> found it.
> >
> > Ray
>
> Good to hear you got stable WiFi :)
>
> Almost all (if not all) the docs are currently out-of-date when it comes
> to Qubes 4, but up-to-date when it comes to Qubes 3.2.
>
> This is why there is currently no doc for changing PV to HVM, or vice
> versa. HVM is prefered for security in Qubes 4, however both modes can give
> different hardware trouble. For example I personally get issues running PV,
> despite having PV working flawlessly back in Qubes 3.2. Others from what I
> can read might have issues with HVM, and need to fall back to PV instead.
>
> That's why you can switch to whichever mode is preferred. But in terms of
> security HVM is better than PV. However HVM is not perfect either, but
> nontheless an improvement over PV. From what I've seen the developers
> discuss, it seems like the plan is to move towards PVH in a future Qubes
> release. This is in turn an improvement over HVM. So PV < HVM < PVH. So you
> want HVM for now, but can change to PVH in a future Qubes release, probably
> with the same command by then.
>
> Unfortunately there is no easy way to print out which VM is in PV or HVM.
> At least, I haven't found it if there is any. The usual 'qvm-ls' command,
> usually used to print VM information like disk usages, network use,
> template use, etc. still appears to be in Qubes 3.2. version. For example a
> PV/HVM print in qvm-ls would seem like something extremely useful to add
> into the qvm-ls tool, so my guess is it's still something that needs
> fixing. Especially when PVH is added to the mix in a future Qubes release.
> the format, for example 'qvm-ls --format-help' doesn't give any PV/HVM
> information either in any of the various flags to print more details of
> different kinds. (btw, the qvm-ls --format disk' command is useful if you
> want to know how much each VM is using disk space, now that the Qubes
> Manager has been removed in Qubes 4. It can be troublesome if one of your
> VM's is eating up a lot of disk space and you can't find which one,
> especially on small SSD drives. That command can help with that.
>
> Anyway, back to the PV/HVM issue. The command to print PV/HVM, if you're
> not familiar with the command already, then it can also give other VM
> information, try type 'qvm-prefs vm-name' on whichever vm you want to check
> VM preferences on. You'll see the virt_mode in here for the PV/HVM, along
> with various other VM specific preferences for that VM.
>
> Optionally; for less terminal spam, you can type in this instead:
> qvm-prefs vm-name virt_mode
>
> If it gives you back PV print in terminal chat, then use keyboard
> arrow-up, so you can re-use the same command again, and then add HVM
> afterwards, so it becomes like this
>
> qvm-prefs vm-name virt_mode HVM
>
> Then repeat, go through all your VM's that might be in a PV state, be it
> TemplateVM's, AappVMs, ServiceVM's, DisposableVM's, etc.
> Probably all your VM's originating from Qubes 4, are already set to HVM,
> but almost certainly, any VM you got from a Qubes 3.2. backup are in PV
> state. As far as I know, the Qubes team made it so the Qubes installer
> might default back to PV if it cannot install with HVM, if true, then there
> is a risk some of your original Qubes 4 VM's are in PV as well. If you want
> to be 

Re: [qubes-users] How to Setup Wireless

[Yuraeitha]

On Friday, November 24, 2017 at 2:01:18 AM UTC, Ray Joseph wrote:
> Yuraeitha,
> 
> Thank you.  All of that was news.  The need to run all VMs as HVM is the only 
> one that seems to be a concern.  When I get wifi working, I never lose it.   
> This was a fresh install and I am testing with this machine.
> 
> I haven't been able to find how to convert existing VMs to HVM.  Please 
> suggest where I might find this.  I've been going through docs and have not 
> found it.
> 
> Ray

Good to hear you got stable WiFi :)

Almost all (if not all) the docs are currently out-of-date when it comes to 
Qubes 4, but up-to-date when it comes to Qubes 3.2. 

This is why there is currently no doc for changing PV to HVM, or vice versa. 
HVM is prefered for security in Qubes 4, however both modes can give different 
hardware trouble. For example I personally get issues running PV, despite 
having PV working flawlessly back in Qubes 3.2. Others from what I can read 
might have issues with HVM, and need to fall back to PV instead. 

That's why you can switch to whichever mode is preferred. But in terms of 
security HVM is better than PV. However HVM is not perfect either, but 
nontheless an improvement over PV. From what I've seen the developers discuss, 
it seems like the plan is to move towards PVH in a future Qubes release. This 
is in turn an improvement over HVM. So PV < HVM < PVH. So you want HVM for now, 
but can change to PVH in a future Qubes release, probably with the same command 
by then.

Unfortunately there is no easy way to print out which VM is in PV or HVM. At 
least, I haven't found it if there is any. The usual 'qvm-ls' command, usually 
used to print VM information like disk usages, network use, template use, etc. 
still appears to be in Qubes 3.2. version. For example a PV/HVM print in qvm-ls 
would seem like something extremely useful to add into the qvm-ls tool, so my 
guess is it's still something that needs fixing. Especially when PVH is added 
to the mix in a future Qubes release. the format, for example 'qvm-ls 
--format-help' doesn't give any PV/HVM information either in any of the various 
flags to print more details of different kinds. (btw, the qvm-ls --format disk' 
command is useful if you want to know how much each VM is using disk space, now 
that the Qubes Manager has been removed in Qubes 4. It can be troublesome if 
one of your VM's is eating up a lot of disk space and you can't find which one, 
especially on small SSD drives. That command can help with that.

Anyway, back to the PV/HVM issue. The command to print PV/HVM, if you're not 
familiar with the command already, then it can also give other VM information, 
try type 'qvm-prefs vm-name' on whichever vm you want to check VM preferences 
on. You'll see the virt_mode in here for the PV/HVM, along with various other 
VM specific preferences for that VM.  

Optionally; for less terminal spam, you can type in this instead:
qvm-prefs vm-name virt_mode

If it gives you back PV print in terminal chat, then use keyboard arrow-up, so 
you can re-use the same command again, and then add HVM afterwards, so it 
becomes like this

qvm-prefs vm-name virt_mode HVM 

Then repeat, go through all your VM's that might be in a PV state, be it 
TemplateVM's, AappVMs, ServiceVM's, DisposableVM's, etc.  
Probably all your VM's originating from Qubes 4, are already set to HVM, but 
almost certainly, any VM you got from a Qubes 3.2. backup are in PV state. As 
far as I know, the Qubes team made it so the Qubes installer might default back 
to PV if it cannot install with HVM, if true, then there is a risk some of your 
original Qubes 4 VM's are in PV as well. If you want to be absolutely sure, 
spend a few minutes running through all your VM's to verify. Technically you 
don't need to print out, and can just use the change command on every VM, but 
it might be good to know if you corrected any, so making a print in chat first 
before changing, might be informative, especially if on a VM that previously 
has given trouble, or if the VM will give you trouble after changed to HVM. So 
it's a good idea to keep an eye out for changes you make instead of just 
rolling it out on all. 

Also if some of the original VM's after install or VM's created in Qubes 4, are 
PV. Then it might be because your hardware doesn't like HVM and falls back to 
PV instead. Might be a good idea to keep in mind, start slow and verify if it 
can run HVM before changing all the other VM's if that's the case. 

Personally I had to delete some of my AppVM's after changing from PV to HVM, as 
while it was an improvement, it wasn't enough in my situation to fix all of the 
issues. So I transfered my data and files from the few bad behaving AppVM's to 
a new Qubes 4 VM. The only AppVm's that missbehaved, were Qubes 3.2. backup 
AppVm's. Oddly, it was only some of them, and not all of them that misbehaved. 
To this day, I still don't know why that was the case. However, now most 

Re: [qubes-users] How to Setup Wireless

[Yuraeitha]

On Wednesday, November 22, 2017 at 7:43:59 PM UTC, Ray Joseph wrote:
> donoban,
> 
> Thank  you.  It is now running in dom0.  I changed to v4.0RC1.  My vms start 
> intermittently so it is a challenge to test further.  
> 
> I guess I could practice in v3.2 until v4 matures.

Actually, if you managed to get that far, you can probably manage to get Qubes 
4 to run more or less smoothly. Albeit still may be unlucky to encounter a 
nasty bug of course, but in my own experience it runs pretty smoothly with 
newest updates and fixed user mistakes.

Qubes 4 user (or semi-user) mistakes that I encountered, that have a big impact 
on a working Qubes 4:
 
- Not making sure ALL VM's, i.e. from restored backup, are set to HVM instead 
of PV. This can mess up your VM's, as some systems can no longer run PV VM's 
properly in Qubes 4, despite having done so just fine in Qubes 3.2.

- Using any older Qubes 3.2. templates. A lot of changes was made to the Qubes 
tools, so the Qubes tools code probably changed in the VM templates too. Be 
sure you are mindful of this, if you insist on using an older Qubes 3.2. VM 
template. 

- A bug in the AppVM templates, seem to mess up icon update in the XFCE4 menu, 
or somehow even preventing apps to start in VM's. If you encounter a bad AppVM, 
check if it was restored from Qubes 3.2. If so, then manually transfter your 
files, bookmarks, etc. out of it and over into a new Qubes 4 freshly made AppVM.

- VT-D and similar, is now required for a fully working system, instead of just 
recommended as it was in Qubes 3.2. and back. You may be able to install, but 
it won't run smooth without VT-D or similar supported tech.

- Newest Qubes (Testing update) has a drawback of Hibernate/Suspend breaking 
Wi-Fi, and various of other VM functionality. For example all your VM apps may 
be gone and cannot start. Only solution is either restart ALL your VM's, or in 
the worst cases, having to restart all of Qubes. Still, this is a testing 
update, and a user mistake for using a testing update. The developers will 
probably get it fixed eventually. Staying with regular updates should be safe, 
I assume of course. If you get the bug, then just be sure you save important 
work if you use suspend/hibernate. This is likely a pass-through issue (I 
think), but its definitely not a driver/module issue, like those we otherwise 
often saw in the past after hibernate/suspend. Either way, my guess is its 
probably soon fixed before it becomes a normal update.


I'm not saying to go Qubes 4 for stability or critical data production, though, 
in my experience the user (or semi user) mistakes above can have a huge impact 
on if Qubes 4 works properly or not.

There are still other issues, but they are getting more rare, and mostly 
everything seems to work now. Personally I'd rate Qubes RC-2, fully updated to 
this date, as late stage beta testing. But that's just my look at it.

If you got important work, then it's probably better to stay on Qubes 3.2. for 
a while yet. If not, and you want to play with Qubes, then you can probably get 
it work reasonably on supported hardware.

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Re: [qubes-users] How to Setup Wireless

[Ray Joseph]

donoban,

Thank  you.  It is now running in dom0.  I changed to v4.0RC1.  My vms start 
intermittently so it is a challenge to test further.  

I guess I could practice in v3.2 until v4 matures.

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Re: [qubes-users] How to Setup Wireless

[donoban]

On 10/30/2017 03:29 PM, donoban wrote:
> On 10/30/2017 12:53 AM, Ray Joseph wrote:
>> How do I enter my password?  In Debian9, I installed wpa_supplicant to 
>> include a key in network/interfaces.  Should this same method be used for 
>> sys-net?
>>
>> Where would I find this type of information.  Searching the Qubes-OS doc, I 
>> only found one reference to wireless and that was how to unload and load the 
>> wirel drivers.
>>
>> BTW, I had cloned sys-net vm to experiment.  But it would not start.  Andrew 
>> pointed to developer docs where it was stated that a vm that would use a 
>> device already in use will not start.
>> https://github.com/QubesOS/qubes-issues/issues?q=is%3Aopen+is%3Aissue+label%3A%22C%3A+doc%22
>>  
>> Just for the record, since I will probably forget that.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Ray
>>
> 
> Hi,
> 
> Did you check if your wireless card is attached to your sys-net? Try
> running "sudo lspci" on sys-net and look something like:
> 
> 00:01.0 Network controller: Intel Corporation Wireless 7265 (rev 61)
> 
> If you don't see it try to attach it using the Qubes VM Manager (on
> version 3.2).
> 
> If the device is right, check your dmesg log (running "sudo dmesg") on
> sys-net and check if you are missing some proprietary firmware or it
> complains about another problem.
> 

Sorry, I didn't read your other mail. It seems that your card is
properly loaded.

What do you see when you click on network manager icon?
Does "iwlist scan" give some results?

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Re: [qubes-users] How to Setup Wireless

[donoban]

On 10/30/2017 12:53 AM, Ray Joseph wrote:
> How do I enter my password?  In Debian9, I installed wpa_supplicant to 
> include a key in network/interfaces.  Should this same method be used for 
> sys-net?
> 
> Where would I find this type of information.  Searching the Qubes-OS doc, I 
> only found one reference to wireless and that was how to unload and load the 
> wirel drivers.
> 
> BTW, I had cloned sys-net vm to experiment.  But it would not start.  Andrew 
> pointed to developer docs where it was stated that a vm that would use a 
> device already in use will not start.
> https://github.com/QubesOS/qubes-issues/issues?q=is%3Aopen+is%3Aissue+label%3A%22C%3A+doc%22
>  
> Just for the record, since I will probably forget that.
> 
> Thanks,
> Ray
> 

Hi,

Did you check if your wireless card is attached to your sys-net? Try
running "sudo lspci" on sys-net and look something like:

00:01.0 Network controller: Intel Corporation Wireless 7265 (rev 61)

If you don't see it try to attach it using the Qubes VM Manager (on
version 3.2).

If the device is right, check your dmesg log (running "sudo dmesg") on
sys-net and check if you are missing some proprietary firmware or it
complains about another problem.

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[qubes-users] How to Setup Wireless

[Ray Joseph]

How do I enter my password?  In Debian9, I installed wpa_supplicant to include 
a key in network/interfaces.  Should this same method be used for sys-net?

Where would I find this type of information.  Searching the Qubes-OS doc, I 
only found one reference to wireless and that was how to unload and load the 
wirel drivers.

BTW, I had cloned sys-net vm to experiment.  But it would not start.  Andrew 
pointed to developer docs where it was stated that a vm that would use a device 
already in use will not start.
https://github.com/QubesOS/qubes-issues/issues?q=is%3Aopen+is%3Aissue+label%3A%22C%3A+doc%22
 
Just for the record, since I will probably forget that.

Thanks,
Ray

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