Re: [qubes-users] Relation between increasing RAM and the increased need for display memory

2017-11-13 Thread Zrubi
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Hash: SHA256

On 11/11/2017 04:22 PM, @LeeteqXV (Twitter & Mastodon.technology) wrote:
> Ref. "(maybe if you using Compiz with fancy desktop effects) "
> 
> For me, the desktop environment affects my well-being and mood
> very much, so yes some of such "effects" are important, both for
> efficiency and for the general good feeling when working etc.,, not
> the fancy part.
> 
> I prefer to have 12+ viewports/workspaces, each with its own name
> and background image, so I can associate specific
> tasks/applications to each one, plus with a wrap-around function to
> navigate beyond the borders. I use Compiz for this on Ubuntu, and
> fortunately all of the above is possible in Qubes without any extra
> tools.
> 
> Compiz provides customized window transparency so that when I
> write, I arrange for good (text++) contrast towards the nice
> background image on each desktop, on a per-window basis. I use
> Alt+[numeric"+"] and Alt-[numeric"-"] keyboard shortcuts to
> increase/decrease the transparency on the active window. (Not sure
> if this is possible in Qubes out-of-the-box?)
> 
> With this as the background (all done outside of the VMs), along
> with the initially mentioned points about increasing use of
> one-app-vms, are you saying that we can basically just keep upping
> the RAM without worrying about the potential need for increased
> display memory?

I used those effects as well. So yes, I would still say you do not
have to worry about your video RAM.


> I would like to know what are the minimum requirements for the
> graphics card in this respect, for "both ends of the spectre", so
> to speak;

My experience is that you can't have any Qubes compatible hardware
that is not enough for any kind of fancy compiz effects. Mainly
because the VGA is integrated into the CPU package (most of the
systems nowadays). You may have to increase the default assigned video
RAM in BIOS, but that's all.

> a) ~16GB RAM, which is getting increasingly possible with
> sub-€1000 laptops (just for the perspective on the limits). b)
> >32GB RAM, for the high-end computers.
> 
> Will it be possible to use a (compatible) laptop in the sub-€1000
> range as long as it has enough RAM, or should one also verify that
> the display card meet some kind of minimum specifications (for the
> scenario where we are going to run a LOT of VMs, only limited by
> the available RAM)?

See my note above.


> + How is this different with Qubes 4.x compared to 3.2?

Nothing changed about VGA.


- -- 
Zrubi
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Re: [qubes-users] Relation between increasing RAM and the increased need for display memory

2017-11-11 Thread @LeeteqXV (Twitter & Mastodon.technology)

On 28/09/17 12:32, Zrubi wrote:

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Hash: SHA256

On 09/21/2017 08:47 PM, Teqleez wrote:

Hi all.

I assume this is relevant not only for considerations related to
the practical limit/benefit of increasing RAM in existing
computers, but also regarding the specifications when buying new
computers.

- At the following amounts of RAM; 8GB -> 16GB -> 24GB -> 32GB ->
48GB -> 64GB, how much does the requirements for the graphics card
memory increase with each step, if we assume the
normal/daily/"permanent" usage to be 70-80% of the available RAM?

This obviously depends on how many different VM's one has open, and
how much video memory each one needs, but can we make an assumption
on some sort of average number for this, to see if it is possible
to find some kind of rule-of-thumb figures?

For example, if we assume a "normal"(?!?) Qubes-OS user whose sole
reason for increasing memory is in fact to be able to run more
Qubes simultaneously; how many more Qubes can he/she expect to be
running per extra 8gb of RAM, and how much more will each such step
"typically" require of the graphics card memory, if we assume a
"linear" growth in the number of concurrently open Qubes?

I am guessing that with the capacity to run (increasingly) many
Qubes, the amount of applications running in each one will be
lower, to the point where we most often choose to run
"one-app-qubes". For the sake of this example we could also assume
that this example user is a "lazy" person who will not bother
configuring minimal templates, but only use the default shipped
fedora-24(++) template for each one, just for the sake of
simplicity and playing around with these numbers a bit.


IMHO there is no real connection between RAM used by the OS and apps,
a and the RAM ins your VGA. (VRAM)

VRAM is used for:
- - game (3D) data rendering, which is out of scope in case of Qubes
(maybe if you using Compiz with fancy desktop effects)

- - display rendering.

The later is still need more and more VRAM because of the bigger and
bigger common resolutions Like:
800x600 -> 1024x768 -> 1920x1080 -> 2560x1080 -> 4K -> 8K -> etc.

So you still need more and more VRAM to render all your pixels in your
screens. These can be multiplied if you start using multi-monitor setups
.

But these needs are not growing as fast as your conventional RAM needs.
I'm using 3xHD screens, and the 512Mb VRAM used by the integrated VGA
is still enough for that,  while my OS has 16Gb RAM.


- -- 
Zrubi

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Ref. "(maybe if you using Compiz with fancy desktop effects) "

For me, the desktop environment affects my well-being and mood very 
much, so yes some of such "effects" are important, both for efficiency 
and for the general good feeling when working etc.,, not the fancy part.


I prefer to have 12+ viewports/workspaces, each with its own name and 
background image, so I can associate specific tasks/applications to each 
one, plus with a wrap-around function to navigate beyond the borders. I 
use Compiz for this on Ubuntu, and fortunately all of the above is 
possible in Qubes without any extra tools.


Compiz provides customized window transparency so that when I write, I 
arrange for good (text++) contrast towards the nice background image on 
each desktop, on a per-window basis. I use Alt+[numeric"+"] and 
Alt-[numeric"-"] keyboard shortcuts to increase/decrease the 
transparency on the active window. (Not sure if this is possible in 
Qubes out-of-the-box?)


With this as the background (all done outside of the VMs), along with 
the initially mentioned points about increasing use of one-app-vms, are 
you saying that we can basically just keep upping the RAM without 
worrying about the potential need for increased display memory?


I would like to know what are the minimum requirements for the graphics 
card in this respect, for "both ends of the spectre", so to speak;


a) ~16GB RAM, which is getting increasingly possible with sub-€1000 
laptops (just for the perspective on the limits).

b) >32GB RAM, for the high-end computers.

Will it be possible to use a (compatible) laptop in the sub-€1000 range 
as long as it has enough RAM, or should 

Re: [qubes-users] Relation between increasing RAM and the increased need for display memory

2017-09-28 Thread Zrubi
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA256

On 09/21/2017 08:47 PM, Teqleez wrote:
> Hi all.
> 
> I assume this is relevant not only for considerations related to
> the practical limit/benefit of increasing RAM in existing
> computers, but also regarding the specifications when buying new
> computers.
> 
> - At the following amounts of RAM; 8GB -> 16GB -> 24GB -> 32GB ->
> 48GB -> 64GB, how much does the requirements for the graphics card
> memory increase with each step, if we assume the
> normal/daily/"permanent" usage to be 70-80% of the available RAM?
> 
> This obviously depends on how many different VM's one has open, and
> how much video memory each one needs, but can we make an assumption
> on some sort of average number for this, to see if it is possible
> to find some kind of rule-of-thumb figures?
> 
> For example, if we assume a "normal"(?!?) Qubes-OS user whose sole 
> reason for increasing memory is in fact to be able to run more
> Qubes simultaneously; how many more Qubes can he/she expect to be
> running per extra 8gb of RAM, and how much more will each such step
> "typically" require of the graphics card memory, if we assume a
> "linear" growth in the number of concurrently open Qubes?
> 
> I am guessing that with the capacity to run (increasingly) many
> Qubes, the amount of applications running in each one will be
> lower, to the point where we most often choose to run
> "one-app-qubes". For the sake of this example we could also assume
> that this example user is a "lazy" person who will not bother
> configuring minimal templates, but only use the default shipped
> fedora-24(++) template for each one, just for the sake of
> simplicity and playing around with these numbers a bit.
> 

IMHO there is no real connection between RAM used by the OS and apps,
a and the RAM ins your VGA. (VRAM)

VRAM is used for:
- - game (3D) data rendering, which is out of scope in case of Qubes
(maybe if you using Compiz with fancy desktop effects)

- - display rendering.

The later is still need more and more VRAM because of the bigger and
bigger common resolutions Like:
800x600 -> 1024x768 -> 1920x1080 -> 2560x1080 -> 4K -> 8K -> etc.

So you still need more and more VRAM to render all your pixels in your
screens. These can be multiplied if you start using multi-monitor setups
.

But these needs are not growing as fast as your conventional RAM needs.
I'm using 3xHD screens, and the 512Mb VRAM used by the integrated VGA
is still enough for that,  while my OS has 16Gb RAM.


- -- 
Zrubi
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[qubes-users] Relation between increasing RAM and the increased need for display memory

2017-09-21 Thread Teqleez
Hi all.

I assume this is relevant not only for considerations related to the
practical limit/benefit of increasing RAM in existing computers, but also
regarding the specifications when buying new computers.

- At the following amounts of RAM; 8GB -> 16GB -> 24GB -> 32GB -> 48GB ->
64GB, how much does the requirements for the graphics card memory increase
with each step, if we assume the normal/daily/"permanent" usage to be
70-80% of the available RAM?

This obviously depends on how many different VM's one has open, and how
much video memory each one needs, but can we make an assumption on some
sort of average number for this, to see if it is possible to find some kind
of rule-of-thumb figures?

For example, if we assume a "normal"(?!?) Qubes-OS user whose sole reason
for increasing memory is in fact to be able to run more Qubes
simultaneously; how many more Qubes can he/she expect to be running per
extra 8gb of RAM, and how much more will each such step "typically" require
of the graphics card memory, if we assume a "linear" growth in the number
of concurrently open Qubes?

I am guessing that with the capacity to run (increasingly) many Qubes, the
amount of applications running in each one will be lower, to the point
where we most often choose to run "one-app-qubes". For the sake of this
example we could also assume that this example user is a "lazy" person who
will not bother configuring minimal templates, but only use the default
shipped fedora-24(++) template for each one, just for the sake of
simplicity and playing around with these numbers a bit.

Regards,

@LeeteqXV

-- 
Regards,
https://mastodon.technology/@LeeteqXV/
https://twitter.com/@LeeteqXV/
https://Leeteq.com/

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