Re: [qubes-users] Re: [qubes-devel] Re: Announcement: Qubes OS Begins Commercialization and Community Funding Efforts

2016-12-16 Thread J. Eppler
Hello Leeteqxv,

if I understood you correct, what your clientele want's to have is constant 
improvements for Qubes OS. They don't want to compile or test things. 

This is a subscription based model, where people pay the Qubes OS team for 
their ongoing work rather than for an existing product.

Furthermore, I agree with you "memberships-based support services (premium
communities) is a good business model for" Qubes OS.

However, I think that testing new features and introducing new features can be 
done together with the open source community and Qubes OS could offer a LTS 
version for money. LTS version could focus on guaranteeing backports and fixes 
for specific LTS version over a period of 3 or more years, whereas the 
community support will only be offered for a year or till the next version of 
Qubes OS appears.

I think the Qubes OS team should focus on getting paid for their ongoing work 
rather than Qubes OS as a product and the only way to do this is to offer 
monthly or yearly subscriptions for customers and additionally support 
memberships for IT professionals (consultants, IT departments etc.).

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Re: [qubes-users] Re: [qubes-devel] Re: Announcement: Qubes OS Begins Commercialization and Community Funding Efforts

2016-12-16 Thread Franz
On Fri, Dec 16, 2016 at 1:06 PM, Leeteqxv  wrote:

> On 15/12/16 23:46, je wrote:
>
>>
>> > I do not believe that developing a commercial operating system
>> based on an
>> > open source foundation will pay off on a long run.
>>
>> Is there a specific reason you think it will not? Just curious.
>>
>>
>> 1. Selling a license provides a one time payment. Even if you are able to
>> sell 100_000 licenses for 40 you would earn
>> 4_000_000, but the same companies will not buy a license the year after
>> that. Which means no constant income for the long run.
>>
>> Most companies will stick with one version of the product till they
>> really have a reason to upgrade.
>> Because, the costs for upgrading are actually higher than the costs of
>> the license and upgrades involve the risk of causing
>> disruption (problems during the upgrade, which blocks employees from
>> getting their work done. Which again means I loose money).
>> With other words Qubes OS will be stuck with one version for years.
>>
>> 2. The simple question is how can you sell a product which contains
>> mostly GPL licensed code (Xen, Linux Kernel)
>> which everybody can download and compile for free?
>>
>> RHEL sells support subscriptions. They offer support (10 years
>> backporting, customer support etc.) and most important they offer a
>> platform for other business software.
>> The work RedHat constantly invests in their RHEL can not be easily
>> replicated and that is the reason why CentOS is not a competitor.
>>
>> 3. Security is a process and not a product. As an enterprise customer I
>> want to have constant updates and upgrades, security bulletins and other
>> security information.
>> I want to know if DirtyCOW, hardbleed or other security flaws affect my
>> business if I use Qubes OS or not?
>>
>> Furthermore, I believe that the Qubes OS team and ITL does not understand
>> what Qubes OS could offer on an enterprise level.
>> --
>>
> I am working with IT strategy myself. Enterprise needs are clearly
> completely different from SMB, etc., so in that sense we are talking about
> two entirely different strategies and support models. I think Qubes should
> pursue both, but with two distinctly different teams in charge, with the
> suitable understanding of each area.
>
> As the whole industry (and society at large) continues to mature into
> various ways of readiiness for Open-Source things, I am quite sure that we
> will see a growing market among SMB's that are willing to pay for support
> and related peace-of-mind aspects even if it is possible to compile
> everything oneself. It is worth paying to "delegate" both such manual work
> and to avoid keeping up on the related competence race.
>
> A license is one thing, perhaps even limited in time, but an accompanying
> support agreement is yet another. Both are needed, IMO.
>
> There is also a middle ground here - Take for example me:
> I would like to offer entry-level services to clients, who all will pay
> the license + pay for my services. In turn, I want to be a
> professional-level client of Qubes support, so that I can get their backup
> when there is something I run into which I cannot answer or solve properly
> for my entry-level clientele. So I would be willing to pay a professional
> support membership of some sorts.
>
> I strongly believe memberships-based support services (premium
> communities) is a good business model for this, atop of whatever licensing
> scheme one may have.
>
>
Agree with that.
On the license side also a mixed scheme may be interesting. For example
there is an obvious need of some development directed to the very special
enterprise needs. This additional enterprise development may be kept
closed-source for a limited time, perhaps 5 years rather than the
international 50 years of copyright law. During this limited time this
additional software may be available under a non-disclosure agreement for
the licensee to check it or even compile it.
Best
fran

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Re: [qubes-users] Re: [qubes-devel] Re: Announcement: Qubes OS Begins Commercialization and Community Funding Efforts

2016-12-16 Thread Leeteqxv

On 15/12/16 23:46, je wrote:


> I do not believe that developing a commercial operating system 
based on an

> open source foundation will pay off on a long run.

Is there a specific reason you think it will not? Just curious.


1. Selling a license provides a one time payment. Even if you are able 
to sell 100_000 licenses for 40 you would earn
4_000_000, but the same companies will not buy a license the year 
after that. Which means no constant income for the long run.


Most companies will stick with one version of the product till they 
really have a reason to upgrade.
Because, the costs for upgrading are actually higher than the costs of 
the license and upgrades involve the risk of causing
disruption (problems during the upgrade, which blocks employees from 
getting their work done. Which again means I loose money).

With other words Qubes OS will be stuck with one version for years.

2. The simple question is how can you sell a product which contains 
mostly GPL licensed code (Xen, Linux Kernel)

which everybody can download and compile for free?

RHEL sells support subscriptions. They offer support (10 years 
backporting, customer support etc.) and most important they offer a 
platform for other business software.
The work RedHat constantly invests in their RHEL can not be easily 
replicated and that is the reason why CentOS is not a competitor.


3. Security is a process and not a product. As an enterprise customer 
I want to have constant updates and upgrades, security bulletins and 
other security information.
I want to know if DirtyCOW, hardbleed or other security flaws affect 
my business if I use Qubes OS or not?


Furthermore, I believe that the Qubes OS team and ITL does not 
understand what Qubes OS could offer on an enterprise level.

--
I am working with IT strategy myself. Enterprise needs are clearly 
completely different from SMB, etc., so in that sense we are talking 
about two entirely different strategies and support models. I think 
Qubes should pursue both, but with two distinctly different teams in 
charge, with the suitable understanding of each area.


As the whole industry (and society at large) continues to mature into 
various ways of readiiness for Open-Source things, I am quite sure that 
we will see a growing market among SMB's that are willing to pay for 
support and related peace-of-mind aspects even if it is possible to 
compile everything oneself. It is worth paying to "delegate" both such 
manual work and to avoid keeping up on the related competence race.


A license is one thing, perhaps even limited in time, but an 
accompanying support agreement is yet another. Both are needed, IMO.


There is also a middle ground here - Take for example me:
I would like to offer entry-level services to clients, who all will pay 
the license + pay for my services. In turn, I want to be a 
professional-level client of Qubes support, so that I can get their 
backup when there is something I run into which I cannot answer or solve 
properly for my entry-level clientele. So I would be willing to pay a 
professional support membership of some sorts.


I strongly believe memberships-based support services (premium 
communities) is a good business model for this, atop of whatever 
licensing scheme one may have.


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[qubes-users] Re: [qubes-devel] Re: Announcement: Qubes OS Begins Commercialization and Community Funding Efforts

2016-12-15 Thread Andrew David Wong
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA512

On 12/15/16 07:43, je wrote:
> Hello,
> 
> 1. have you thought about offering training, consulting and support for 
> companies who want to use Qubes OS in their enterprise?

Yes, this is something we've considered. We'd prefer to focus on selling
licenses rather than selling services, since this would scale better for
our small team, but we also realize that we'll want to offer support (to
some extent) to clients who purchase licenses.

> 2. have you thought about developing commercial management solution which 
> makes the deployment, remote administration and monitoring easy?
> 

I think the Salt management stack is meant to be this, at least to some
degree. I'm not sure if a more robust management solution than that
would be feasible for us to develop in the short-term, or whether it
would be worth the time and cost necessary to do so.

> I do not believe that developing a commercial operating system based on an 
> open source foundation will pay off on a long run.

Is there a specific reason you think it will not? Just curious.

> However, I agree with you that customized tool and plugin development
> can provide a valuable source of income.

- -- 
Andrew David Wong (Axon)
Community Manager, Qubes OS
https://www.qubes-os.org
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[qubes-users] Re: [qubes-devel] Re: Announcement: Qubes OS Begins Commercialization and Community Funding Efforts

2016-12-05 Thread Andrew David Wong
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA512

On 2016-12-04 13:50, Patrick Bouldin wrote:
> Andrew,
> 
> I'm very willing to donate - and well noted that you all will continue to 
> update the core changes in the public domain. I do understand the why, the 
> what and the dollars for the change - however, will there be anyone left to 
> work on the core, for the sake of the core? Just wondering where the donation 
> dollars will be going. I ask because I agree with the person noting 20,000 
> current licenses. If we all sent in $100 US each then that's $2 million US. 
> 
> Is it possible to set up some separation of funding to ensure each group is 
> getting what they want? Set up the public funding better with separate 
> marketing, and let that fund improvements for the public domain (not just 
> maintenance and slight core improvements) - and then fund your corporate 
> goals using the methods you mentioned.
> 
> As a relatively new user I'm concerned about investing more time in this and 
> it not progressing.
> 
> Thanks,
> Patrick
> Dallas, Texas
> 

As mentioned in the announcement, all donations made via Open Collective will 
be paid directly to developers who have been hired to work on the open source 
edition of Qubes. ITL will not see or benefit from any of that money. All from 
donated funds should be transparently visible to everyone on our Open 
Collective page.

Does this address your concern?

- -- 
Andrew David Wong (Axon)
Community Manager, Qubes OS
https://www.qubes-os.org
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Re: [qubes-users] Re: [qubes-devel] Re: Announcement: Qubes OS Begins Commercialization and Community Funding Efforts

2016-12-04 Thread Andrew David Wong
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Hash: SHA512

On 2016-12-04 02:27, Zbigniew Łukasiak wrote:
> On Sun, Dec 4, 2016 at 3:41 AM, Andrew David Wong  wrote:
>> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
>> Hash: SHA512
>>
>> On 2016-12-04 00:08, Zbigniew Łukasiak wrote:
>>> On Friday, December 2, 2016 at 6:13:35 PM UTC-5, Andrew David Wong wrote:
> So that's what I'm thinking, maybe it would be good for the 
> "evangelization" of Qubes to make some very simple, brief, and 
> to-the-point videos and howto's?
>

 Yes, certainly. Would you be willing to help us with that? :)
>>>
>>> I am new to Qubes - just installed it on my computer. I can note the 
>>> problems that I encounter. Where to send this?
>>>
>>> Z.
>>>
>>
>> Please take a look at this page:
>>
>> https://www.qubes-os.org/doc/reporting-bugs/
>>
> 
> Well - this is not about bugs but about surprises. From my experiences
> with other OS projects I learned that people quickly forget what was
> difficult at the beginning. It is seasoned developers who make
> documentation who have already internalized many details - so the docs
> often lack information.  It is useful to include the newbies in
> writing the docs. - surely they cannot write the answers - but they
> can note the questions :) And they can also mark the areas of
> difficulties. This is the kind of feedback that I had in mind.
> 
> Cheers,
> Zbigniew
> 

I understand. Please feel free to help us by contributing to the
documentation by following these guidelines:

https://www.qubes-os.org/doc/doc-guidelines/


P.S. - Please keep the mailing list CCed, unless there's a need for
privacy:

https://www.qubes-os.org/mailing-lists/#specific-rules-and-notes

- -- 
Andrew David Wong (Axon)
Community Manager, Qubes OS
https://www.qubes-os.org
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Re: [qubes-users] Re: [qubes-devel] Re: Announcement: Qubes OS Begins Commercialization and Community Funding Efforts

2016-12-04 Thread Andrew David Wong
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On 2016-12-04 00:08, Zbigniew Łukasiak wrote:
> On Friday, December 2, 2016 at 6:13:35 PM UTC-5, Andrew David Wong wrote:
>>> So that's what I'm thinking, maybe it would be good for the 
>>> "evangelization" of Qubes to make some very simple, brief, and to-the-point 
>>> videos and howto's?
>>>
>>
>> Yes, certainly. Would you be willing to help us with that? :)
> 
> I am new to Qubes - just installed it on my computer. I can note the problems 
> that I encounter. Where to send this?
> 
> Z.
> 

Please take a look at this page:

https://www.qubes-os.org/doc/reporting-bugs/

- -- 
Andrew David Wong (Axon)
Community Manager, Qubes OS
https://www.qubes-os.org
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Re: [qubes-users] Re: [qubes-devel] Re: Announcement: Qubes OS Begins Commercialization and Community Funding Efforts

2016-12-04 Thread Andrew David Wong
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On 2016-12-03 06:14, Kopimi Security wrote:
> On Saturday, December 3, 2016 at 12:13:35 AM UTC+1, Andrew David Wong wrote:
>> On 12/02/16 11:17, Kopimi Security wrote:
>>> I'm excited about this, and wish to support Qubes.
>>> My first thoughts are "How can Qubes reach a broader community", and "Can 
>>> the HOWTO's be made more approachable?".
>>> For example, the section 'assigning-devices' on the /doc/, didn't get into 
>>> how to actually use a mouse with a sys-usb qube, before at the very end.
>>> And there, the way it was written gave the impression of giving the answer 
>>> almost as an afterthought, as if it should have been obvious to everybody.
>>> As such, it reads as it was written by somebody "too close to the problem".
>>> Somebody being so familiar with the system that outsiders' inability to 
>>> grasp the "obvious", escapes him. Or her.
>>> This is not a unique issue for ITL though, the same problem pops up 
>>> everywhere when highly technical minded people try to convey something to 
>>> people who just wants to be *users*!
>>>
>>> So that's what I'm thinking, maybe it would be good for the 
>>> "evangelization" of Qubes to make some very simple, brief, and to-the-point 
>>> videos and howto's?
>>>
>>
>> Yes, certainly. Would you be willing to help us with that? :)
>>
> 
> Absolutely!
> Would it be okay if I started with some of the /doc/-articles?
> I've noticed that some of them could benefit from an update, as an example 
> the one on Kali (https://www.qubes-os.org/doc/pentesting/kali/).
> 
> Please let me know if this is something that I could help out with.
> 

Yes. Please take a look here:

https://www.qubes-os.org/doc/doc-guidelines/

- -- 
Andrew David Wong (Axon)
Community Manager, Qubes OS
https://www.qubes-os.org
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[qubes-users] Re: [qubes-devel] Re: Announcement: Qubes OS Begins Commercialization and Community Funding Efforts

2016-12-04 Thread Zbigniew Łukasiak
On Friday, December 2, 2016 at 6:13:35 PM UTC-5, Andrew David Wong wrote:
> > So that's what I'm thinking, maybe it would be good for the 
> > "evangelization" of Qubes to make some very simple, brief, and to-the-point 
> > videos and howto's?
> > 
> 
> Yes, certainly. Would you be willing to help us with that? :)

I am new to Qubes - just installed it on my computer. I can note the problems 
that I encounter. Where to send this?

Z.

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[qubes-users] Re: [qubes-devel] Re: Announcement: Qubes OS Begins Commercialization and Community Funding Efforts

2016-12-03 Thread Kopimi Security
On Saturday, December 3, 2016 at 12:13:35 AM UTC+1, Andrew David Wong wrote:
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> Hash: SHA512
> 
> On 12/02/16 11:17, Kopimi Security wrote:
> > On Thursday, December 1, 2016 at 12:56:11 AM UTC+1, Andrew David Wong wrote:
> >> Unfortunately, the financial necessity of shifting our priorities to 
> >> commercial
> >> clients will mean that we have less time to work on features that benefit 
> >> the
> >> wider, security-minded open source community, which has been our focus for 
> >> the
> >> past seven years.  This deeply saddens us. (We all use Qubes on our 
> >> personal
> >> computers too!) However, the reality is that ITL can't afford to sustain 
> >> the
> >> open source development of Qubes for much longer. We're running out of 
> >> time.
> >>
> >> In an attempt to keep the open source development of Qubes going, we've 
> >> teamed
> >> up with Open Collective [07], which makes it easier to donate to the Qubes
> >> project.  Now, in addition to our Bitcoin fund [08], we can also accept
> >> donations via credit card. ITL will not benefit from of any of the money 
> >> donated
> >> through Open Collective. Instead, the funds will be paid directly to 
> >> individual
> >> developers who have been hired to work on the open source edition of Qubes.
> > 
> > I'm excited about this, and wish to support Qubes.
> > My first thoughts are "How can Qubes reach a broader community", and "Can 
> > the HOWTO's be made more approachable?".
> > For example, the section 'assigning-devices' on the /doc/, didn't get into 
> > how to actually use a mouse with a sys-usb qube, before at the very end.
> > And there, the way it was written gave the impression of giving the answer 
> > almost as an afterthought, as if it should have been obvious to everybody.
> > As such, it reads as it was written by somebody "too close to the problem".
> > Somebody being so familiar with the system that outsiders' inability to 
> > grasp the "obvious", escapes him. Or her.
> > This is not a unique issue for ITL though, the same problem pops up 
> > everywhere when highly technical minded people try to convey something to 
> > people who just wants to be *users*!
> > 
> > So that's what I'm thinking, maybe it would be good for the 
> > "evangelization" of Qubes to make some very simple, brief, and to-the-point 
> > videos and howto's?
> > 
> 
> Yes, certainly. Would you be willing to help us with that? :)
> 

Absolutely!
Would it be okay if I started with some of the /doc/-articles?
I've noticed that some of them could benefit from an update, as an example the 
one on Kali (https://www.qubes-os.org/doc/pentesting/kali/).

Please let me know if this is something that I could help out with.

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[qubes-users] Re: [qubes-devel] Re: Announcement: Qubes OS Begins Commercialization and Community Funding Efforts

2016-12-02 Thread pixel fairy
On Friday, December 2, 2016 at 6:55:18 PM UTC-5, pixel fairy wrote:
> On Friday, December 2, 2016 at 6:13:35 PM UTC-5, Andrew David Wong wrote:
> 
> > > So that's what I'm thinking, maybe it would be good for the 
> > > "evangelization" of Qubes to make some very simple, brief, and 
> > > to-the-point videos and howto's?
> > > 
> > 
> > Yes, certainly. Would you be willing to help us with that? :)
> 
> theres already a nice one in english linked from the front page of the 
> qubes-os site.

and one in french. now we just need more languages covered.

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[qubes-users] Re: [qubes-devel] Re: Announcement: Qubes OS Begins Commercialization and Community Funding Efforts

2016-12-02 Thread pixel fairy
On Friday, December 2, 2016 at 6:13:35 PM UTC-5, Andrew David Wong wrote:

> > So that's what I'm thinking, maybe it would be good for the 
> > "evangelization" of Qubes to make some very simple, brief, and to-the-point 
> > videos and howto's?
> > 
> 
> Yes, certainly. Would you be willing to help us with that? :)

theres already a nice one in english linked from the front page of the qubes-os 
site. 

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[qubes-users] Re: [qubes-devel] Re: Announcement: Qubes OS Begins Commercialization and Community Funding Efforts

2016-12-02 Thread Andrew David Wong
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA512

On 12/02/16 11:17, Kopimi Security wrote:
> On Thursday, December 1, 2016 at 12:56:11 AM UTC+1, Andrew David Wong wrote:
>> Unfortunately, the financial necessity of shifting our priorities to 
>> commercial
>> clients will mean that we have less time to work on features that benefit the
>> wider, security-minded open source community, which has been our focus for 
>> the
>> past seven years.  This deeply saddens us. (We all use Qubes on our personal
>> computers too!) However, the reality is that ITL can't afford to sustain the
>> open source development of Qubes for much longer. We're running out of time.
>>
>> In an attempt to keep the open source development of Qubes going, we've 
>> teamed
>> up with Open Collective [07], which makes it easier to donate to the Qubes
>> project.  Now, in addition to our Bitcoin fund [08], we can also accept
>> donations via credit card. ITL will not benefit from of any of the money 
>> donated
>> through Open Collective. Instead, the funds will be paid directly to 
>> individual
>> developers who have been hired to work on the open source edition of Qubes.
> 
> I'm excited about this, and wish to support Qubes.
> My first thoughts are "How can Qubes reach a broader community", and "Can the 
> HOWTO's be made more approachable?".
> For example, the section 'assigning-devices' on the /doc/, didn't get into 
> how to actually use a mouse with a sys-usb qube, before at the very end.
> And there, the way it was written gave the impression of giving the answer 
> almost as an afterthought, as if it should have been obvious to everybody.
> As such, it reads as it was written by somebody "too close to the problem".
> Somebody being so familiar with the system that outsiders' inability to grasp 
> the "obvious", escapes him. Or her.
> This is not a unique issue for ITL though, the same problem pops up 
> everywhere when highly technical minded people try to convey something to 
> people who just wants to be *users*!
> 
> So that's what I'm thinking, maybe it would be good for the "evangelization" 
> of Qubes to make some very simple, brief, and to-the-point videos and howto's?
> 

Yes, certainly. Would you be willing to help us with that? :)

- -- 
Andrew David Wong (Axon)
Community Manager, Qubes OS
https://www.qubes-os.org
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