Re: [qubes-users] Switching from UEFI to BIOS after installation...

[cooloutac]

On Wednesday, June 21, 2017 at 4:53:04 PM UTC-4, motech man wrote:
> On Tuesday, June 20, 2017 at 10:09:33 PM UTC-5, cooloutac wrote:
> > > Indeed. I don't understand why AEM can't be used with UEFI. The docs 
> > > should also mention the reliance on TPM for AEM and the use of AEM 
> > > prevents ability to swap drives in mobo easily, such as hot swapable 
> > > SATA. That is probably not an important consideration in the majority of 
> > > cases I suspect.
> > > 
> > > Also, the conversion process should probably discuss GPT vs MBR 
> > > partitioning. I was under the impression UEFI required GPT, but even if 
> > > not, I do know booting an OS that resides on a GPT drive via BIOS (i.e. 
> > > legacy) mode has problems. Most BIOS / legacy code doesn't even recognize 
> > > a GPT drive. Often BIOS booting on a GPT drive relies on the protected 
> > > partition region which isn't recognized across the board and is far from 
> > > being well recognized my all Op Systems.
> > 
> > 
> > I don't understand why people want to use uefi if not using secure boot. 
> >...
> > You say GPT is that cause you running windows?  Well when you do decide to 
> > go to Qubes-os only machine  reformat the drive and hope for the best.  If 
> > you ever update your pc hardware though don't put anything else on it.  And 
> > your Hardware should be safe for at least a year lol. I'm starting to think 
> > real security is only for rich people.   but 1-2 years reasonable secure pc 
> > is pretty good compared to windows.  which I would give 1-2 months.  and 
> > linux which is shot in one day.  Ignore my fud.
> 
> We've had this discussion in another thread. I reiterated the main points 
> above. GPT is the superior partitioning format, far more flexible. Mixing 
> legacy BIOS with GPT is a very difficult combination to get working, 
> certainly for windoze. I have no intention of installing that OS on my Qubes 
> box, no way.
> 
> But please do your research on GPT and you will see BIOS boot is obsolete and 
> will be a thing of the past before you know it. The sooner you realize that 
> the better off you'll be.

well I have it installed on mind windows 10 on a machine I also boot with 
qubes.  main machine is qubes only though.  I use legacy mode for both.

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Re: [qubes-users] Switching from UEFI to BIOS after installation...

[motech man]

On Tuesday, June 20, 2017 at 10:09:33 PM UTC-5, cooloutac wrote:
> > Indeed. I don't understand why AEM can't be used with UEFI. The docs should 
> > also mention the reliance on TPM for AEM and the use of AEM prevents 
> > ability to swap drives in mobo easily, such as hot swapable SATA. That is 
> > probably not an important consideration in the majority of cases I suspect.
> > 
> > Also, the conversion process should probably discuss GPT vs MBR 
> > partitioning. I was under the impression UEFI required GPT, but even if 
> > not, I do know booting an OS that resides on a GPT drive via BIOS (i.e. 
> > legacy) mode has problems. Most BIOS / legacy code doesn't even recognize a 
> > GPT drive. Often BIOS booting on a GPT drive relies on the protected 
> > partition region which isn't recognized across the board and is far from 
> > being well recognized my all Op Systems.
> 
> 
> I don't understand why people want to use uefi if not using secure boot. 
>...
> You say GPT is that cause you running windows?  Well when you do decide to go 
> to Qubes-os only machine  reformat the drive and hope for the best.  If you 
> ever update your pc hardware though don't put anything else on it.  And your 
> Hardware should be safe for at least a year lol. I'm starting to think real 
> security is only for rich people.   but 1-2 years reasonable secure pc is 
> pretty good compared to windows.  which I would give 1-2 months.  and linux 
> which is shot in one day.  Ignore my fud.

We've had this discussion in another thread. I reiterated the main points 
above. GPT is the superior partitioning format, far more flexible. Mixing 
legacy BIOS with GPT is a very difficult combination to get working, certainly 
for windoze. I have no intention of installing that OS on my Qubes box, no way.

But please do your research on GPT and you will see BIOS boot is obsolete and 
will be a thing of the past before you know it. The sooner you realize that the 
better off you'll be.

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Re: [qubes-users] Switching from UEFI to BIOS after installation...

[cooloutac]

On Tuesday, June 20, 2017 at 10:30:40 PM UTC-4, motech man wrote:
> On Monday, September 26, 2016 at 2:40:51 AM UTC-5, Mara Kuenster wrote:
> > Yes, SOME VMs work sometimes ☺.
> > 
> > I will just reinstall, it’s better anyway to have no unsupervised downtime 
> > between installing qubes and AEM, especially since I used Windows already 
> > on the same PC before activating AEM.
> > Still this is a weird issue. Maybe one of the developers could try to 
> > reproduce by installing with UEFI then activating BIOS and confirm this 
> > messed up system? It is especially weird since the SAME system is just fine 
> > when booting in UEFI. 
> > 
> > Btw, maybe you could add a warning to the installer that UEFI will not 
> > allow AEM to be used, this would save a lot of time. I think I am not the 
> > only one who didn’t read the AEM documentation that carefully :D.
> > 
> > Cheers
> > Chris
> > 
> > 
> > On 26/09/16 01:34, "Marek Marczykowski-Górecki" wrote:
> > 
> > -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> > Hash: SHA256in
> > 
> > On Mon, Sep 26, 2016 at 12:02:01AM +0200, Mara Kuenster wrote:
> > > Hmm yeah with that I managed to boot through BIOS mode, unfortunately 
> > the VMs don’t start (randomly, different ones fail on each boot attempt). 
> > So basically something seems to go wrong. The disks get decrypted and I can 
> > login with the manager etc. but the system is more or less a complete 
> > failure ^^. When I go back and boot in UEFI mode, everything works just 
> > fine…
> > > 
> > > This seems kinda odd xD.
> > 
> > Just to clarify - does any VM start at all?
> > If not, check if Xen is started. The easiest way is to call `xl info` in
> > dom0. If not, make sure you select grub boot entry containing "Xen".
> > 
> > - -- 
> > Best Regards,
> > Marek Marczykowski-Górecki
> > Invisible Things Lab
> > A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
> > Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
> > -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
> > Version: GnuPG v2
> > 
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> 
> Indeed. I don't understand why AEM can't be used with UEFI. The docs should 
> also mention the reliance on TPM for AEM and the use of AEM prevents ability 
> to swap drives in mobo easily, such as hot swapable SATA. That is probably 
> not an important consideration in the majority of cases I suspect.
> 
> Also, the conversion process should probably discuss GPT vs MBR partitioning. 
> I was under the impression UEFI required GPT, but even if not, I do know 
> booting an OS that resides on a GPT drive via BIOS (i.e. legacy) mode has 
> problems. Most BIOS / legacy code doesn't even recognize a GPT drive. Often 
> BIOS booting on a GPT drive relies on the protected partition region which 
> isn't recognized across the board and is far from being well recognized my 
> all Op Systems.


oh, I don't use aem but I thought it was the other way around,  thought it was 
for uefi...lol  Should be already understood you need tpm, but I don't think 
nescessarily txt.   Man, I always learn things make me like the itl team so 
much they aren't influenced by anything.

I don't understand why people want to use uefi if not using secure boot.  I 
know eventually Qubes will have to fully support uefi and legacy boot gonna be 
old news cause they will have no choice from hardware manufactures.  But is 
there any other benefits?  To me I see it as making my machine more vulnerable 
without any benefits but headache.

You say GPT is that cause you running windows?  Well when you do decide to go 
to Qubes-os only machine  reformat the drive and hope for the best.  If you 
ever update your pc hardware though don't put anything else on it.  And your 
Hardware should be safe for at least a year lol. I'm starting to think real 
security is only for rich people.   but 1-2 years reasonable secure pc is 
pretty good compared to windows.  which I would give 1-2 months.  and linux 
which is shot in one day.  Ignore my fud.

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Re: [qubes-users] Switching from UEFI to BIOS after installation...

[motech man]

On Monday, September 26, 2016 at 2:40:51 AM UTC-5, Mara Kuenster wrote:
> Yes, SOME VMs work sometimes ☺.
> 
> I will just reinstall, it’s better anyway to have no unsupervised downtime 
> between installing qubes and AEM, especially since I used Windows already on 
> the same PC before activating AEM.
> Still this is a weird issue. Maybe one of the developers could try to 
> reproduce by installing with UEFI then activating BIOS and confirm this 
> messed up system? It is especially weird since the SAME system is just fine 
> when booting in UEFI. 
> 
> Btw, maybe you could add a warning to the installer that UEFI will not allow 
> AEM to be used, this would save a lot of time. I think I am not the only one 
> who didn’t read the AEM documentation that carefully :D.
> 
> Cheers
> Chris
> 
> 
> On 26/09/16 01:34, "Marek Marczykowski-Górecki" wrote:
> 
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> Hash: SHA256in
> 
> On Mon, Sep 26, 2016 at 12:02:01AM +0200, Mara Kuenster wrote:
> > Hmm yeah with that I managed to boot through BIOS mode, unfortunately 
> the VMs don’t start (randomly, different ones fail on each boot attempt). So 
> basically something seems to go wrong. The disks get decrypted and I can 
> login with the manager etc. but the system is more or less a complete failure 
> ^^. When I go back and boot in UEFI mode, everything works just fine…
> > 
> > This seems kinda odd xD.
> 
> Just to clarify - does any VM start at all?
> If not, check if Xen is started. The easiest way is to call `xl info` in
> dom0. If not, make sure you select grub boot entry containing "Xen".
> 
> - -- 
> Best Regards,
> Marek Marczykowski-Górecki
> Invisible Things Lab
> A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
> Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
> Version: GnuPG v2
> 
> iQEcBAEBCAAGBQJX6F72AAoJENuP0xzK19csLNcIAIJry9faT2BpdtxRqthd2QuK
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> =dsD5
> -END PGP SIGNATURE-

Indeed. I don't understand why AEM can't be used with UEFI. The docs should 
also mention the reliance on TPM for AEM and the use of AEM prevents ability to 
swap drives in mobo easily, such as hot swapable SATA. That is probably not an 
important consideration in the majority of cases I suspect.

Also, the conversion process should probably discuss GPT vs MBR partitioning. I 
was under the impression UEFI required GPT, but even if not, I do know booting 
an OS that resides on a GPT drive via BIOS (i.e. legacy) mode has problems. 
Most BIOS / legacy code doesn't even recognize a GPT drive. Often BIOS booting 
on a GPT drive relies on the protected partition region which isn't recognized 
across the board and is far from being well recognized my all Op Systems.

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Re: [qubes-users] Switching from UEFI to BIOS after installation...

[Marek Marczykowski-Górecki]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA256

On Mon, Sep 26, 2016 at 12:02:01AM +0200, Mara Kuenster wrote:
> Hmm yeah with that I managed to boot through BIOS mode, unfortunately the VMs 
> don’t start (randomly, different ones fail on each boot attempt). So 
> basically something seems to go wrong. The disks get decrypted and I can 
> login with the manager etc. but the system is more or less a complete failure 
> ^^. When I go back and boot in UEFI mode, everything works just fine…
> 
> This seems kinda odd xD.

Just to clarify - does any VM start at all?
If not, check if Xen is started. The easiest way is to call `xl info` in
dom0. If not, make sure you select grub boot entry containing "Xen".

- -- 
Best Regards,
Marek Marczykowski-Górecki
Invisible Things Lab
A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: GnuPG v2

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=dsD5
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Re: [qubes-users] Switching from UEFI to BIOS after installation...

[Mara Kuenster]

Hmm yeah with that I managed to boot through BIOS mode, unfortunately the VMs 
don’t start (randomly, different ones fail on each boot attempt). So basically 
something seems to go wrong. The disks get decrypted and I can login with the 
manager etc. but the system is more or less a complete failure ^^. When I go 
back and boot in UEFI mode, everything works just fine…

This seems kinda odd xD.


On 25/09/16 23:27, "Marek Marczykowski-Górecki" 
 wrote:

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA256

On Sun, Sep 25, 2016 at 02:22:49PM -0700, mara.kuens...@gmail.com wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> I just discovered that AEM needs a BIOS boot. 
> Is there a way to install grub into the MBR of an USB drive after Qubes 
was already installed in UEFI mode? If so... How? Like any other Linux 
distribution or does Qubes need something special?
> 
> I would want to avoid re-installing Qubes if possible.

Just installing grub2 package and calling grub2-install should be
enough. At least in theory...

- -- 
Best Regards,
Marek Marczykowski-Górecki
Invisible Things Lab
A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
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Re: [qubes-users] Switching from UEFI to BIOS after installation...

[Marek Marczykowski-Górecki]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA256

On Sun, Sep 25, 2016 at 02:22:49PM -0700, mara.kuens...@gmail.com wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> I just discovered that AEM needs a BIOS boot. 
> Is there a way to install grub into the MBR of an USB drive after Qubes was 
> already installed in UEFI mode? If so... How? Like any other Linux 
> distribution or does Qubes need something special?
> 
> I would want to avoid re-installing Qubes if possible.

Just installing grub2 package and calling grub2-install should be
enough. At least in theory...

- -- 
Best Regards,
Marek Marczykowski-Górecki
Invisible Things Lab
A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
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[qubes-users] Switching from UEFI to BIOS after installation...

[mara . kuenster]

Hi,

I just discovered that AEM needs a BIOS boot. 
Is there a way to install grub into the MBR of an USB drive after Qubes was 
already installed in UEFI mode? If so... How? Like any other Linux distribution 
or does Qubes need something special?

I would want to avoid re-installing Qubes if possible.

Thanks!

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