Re: [qubes-users] Re: Qubes OS 4.0 first release candidate (rc1) has been released!

2017-08-16 Thread cooloutac
On Friday, August 11, 2017 at 11:02:13 AM UTC-4, yura...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Friday, August 11, 2017 at 2:07:44 PM UTC, cooloutac wrote:
> > On Saturday, August 5, 2017 at 12:48:29 PM UTC-4, yura...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > On Saturday, August 5, 2017 at 4:38:23 PM UTC, cooloutac wrote:
> > > > On Saturday, August 5, 2017 at 12:28:32 PM UTC-4, yura...@gmail.com 
> > > > wrote:
> > > > > On Saturday, August 5, 2017 at 4:15:43 PM UTC, cooloutac wrote:
> > > > > > On Saturday, August 5, 2017 at 12:05:58 PM UTC-4, yura...@gmail.com 
> > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > On Saturday, August 5, 2017 at 3:56:25 PM UTC, cooloutac wrote:
> > > > > > > > On Saturday, August 5, 2017 at 11:34:32 AM UTC-4, 
> > > > > > > > yura...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > > > > > On Saturday, August 5, 2017 at 3:26:05 PM UTC, cooloutac 
> > > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > I'll be disappointed but I'm not going to be mad at them 
> > > > > > > > > > for trying to get paid, they deserve it. 
> > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > But I also wouldn't mind if they turned me into a money 
> > > > > > > > > > asset like windows so they can keep designing it for home 
> > > > > > > > > > users...lol
> > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > I look at things differently.  You are referring to linux 
> > > > > > > > > > architecture and developers,  while I'm referring to the 
> > > > > > > > > > majority of its users and community members, as the Product.
> > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > Alright, I respect that, we see some things differently. But 
> > > > > > > > > the discussion is good, it does not have to come down to 
> > > > > > > > > agreeing in the end. 
> > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > I don't like customers being turned into assets though. The 
> > > > > > > > > way I see it, it essentially make people "not people" 
> > > > > > > > > anymore, customer service is out of the window, it's all 
> > > > > > > > > about cheating and manipulating people into making the best 
> > > > > > > > > use of them, rather than making a fair trade between a 
> > > > > > > > > company and a customer. So I kind of black out when I see 
> > > > > > > > > business models that turn people into assets, I really, 
> > > > > > > > > really don't like that approach.
> > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > But I do really agree that I wouldn't mind Qubes taking a 
> > > > > > > > > fee, ask for more donations, or focus partly or entirely on 
> > > > > > > > > business users. They do a lot of hard work, and regardless of 
> > > > > > > > > the target group, the change will be for the better of 
> > > > > > > > > humanity. Perhaps it's asking too much for Qubes to focus on 
> > > > > > > > > both companies and end-users at the same time, nontheless, I 
> > > > > > > > > do hope they can manage to do that.
> > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > It's obvious they had their hands full on Qubes 4 too, so it 
> > > > > > > > > might just be that and we're reading too much into the issue 
> > > > > > > > > here at hand. But lets see, with time comes answers. I just 
> > > > > > > > > hope it wiill be in good time rather the long wait.
> > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > You are going to be someones asset or product as part of 
> > > > > > > > nature,  whether you know it or not.
> > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > The ends justify the means to me. Especially if it means being 
> > > > > > > > able to use Qubes or not.   
> > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > I also think its silly to not support secure boot, simply 
> > > > > > > > because the idea was created by Microsoft.   FSF/Richard 
> > > > > > > > Stallman supporters who are against secure boot,  is like 
> > > > > > > > Bernie supporters not voting for hillary.  Seems more spiteful 
> > > > > > > > then practical.
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > Well yeah, only if one allows oneself to become a victim. We can 
> > > > > > > oppose and create balance in the world. 
> > > > > > > Also secure boot is entirely pointless in a stateless computer. A 
> > > > > > > non-stateless computer has a lot of closed source firmware which 
> > > > > > > can be either buggy (which closed software have proven to almost 
> > > > > > > always be), and backdoored, which is either illegal, can be 
> > > > > > > abused by other than for the intended, and is at the fringe limit 
> > > > > > > crossing into the realm of human rights. 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > We don't need closed source firmware, it only creates problems, 
> > > > > > > and no benifit or solutions, other than maintaining market shares 
> > > > > > > through force, rather than surviving on good customer service and 
> > > > > > > customer support. 
> > > > > > > We don't need companies that leech on society. 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > I gather you think the world is ruled by bullies, and that you 
> > > > > > > think it's okay. If so, using that perspective, we just have to 
> > > > > > > become the bullies towards to big companies who wants to make use 
> > > > > > > 

Re: [qubes-users] Re: Qubes OS 4.0 first release candidate (rc1) has been released!

2017-08-14 Thread Sean Dilda
On Mon, Aug 14, 2017 at 6:53 AM Sean Dilda  wrote:

> On Mon, Aug 14, 2017 at 6:23 AM ora...@riseup.net 
> wrote:
>
>
>> for me fresh install on x230 using legacy boot and there is no grub, so
>> how make the iommu=no-igfx edit?
>>
>
> I had to make the same edit..  however, I did see the grub screen for a
> few seconds until it started the boot, and rebooted the system.
>
>
>>
>> install again using EFI boot but installer stuck at beginning "Xen 4.8.1
>> (c/s) EFI loader" screen.
>>
>>
> What's the process for installing with EFI?  On my Dell Precision 5520, I
> wasn't able to see the USB as bootable until I enabled legacy boot mode and
> never saw any EFI options after that, so I'm stuck in legacy boot mode.
>

I tried again (EFI on, secureboot Off) with the same media and was able to
install with EFI this time.  After the install, I did have the problem of
the reboot loop, but no grub screen to pause at.

I fixed this by booting off the install media again and went into the
rescue mode.  I then edited /boot/efi/EFI/qubes/xen.cfg and removed the
iommu=no-igfx  from two different lines.   After that I was able to boot
normally.

What I don't know is if anything will update that file again.  From
https://github.com/QubesOS/qubes-issues/issues/2953 that you need to edit
/etc/default/grub to make sure grub changes persist, but I'm not finding
anything similar for EFI.

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Re: [qubes-users] Re: Qubes OS 4.0 first release candidate (rc1) has been released!

2017-08-14 Thread Sean Dilda
On Mon, Aug 14, 2017 at 6:23 AM ora...@riseup.net  wrote:


> for me fresh install on x230 using legacy boot and there is no grub, so
> how make the iommu=no-igfx edit?
>

I had to make the same edit..  however, I did see the grub screen for a few
seconds until it started the boot, and rebooted the system.


>
> install again using EFI boot but installer stuck at beginning "Xen 4.8.1
> (c/s) EFI loader" screen.
>
>
What's the process for installing with EFI?  On my Dell Precision 5520, I
wasn't able to see the USB as bootable until I enabled legacy boot mode and
never saw any EFI options after that, so I'm stuck in legacy boot mode.

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[qubes-users] Re: Qubes OS 4.0 first release candidate (rc1) has been released!

2017-08-14 Thread ora...@riseup.net
Justin wrote:
> On Wednesday, August 2, 2017 at 7:58:24 AM UTC-4, PR wrote:
>> Hello,
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Am 02.08.2017 1:45 nachm. schrieb  :
>> 
>> On Monday, July 31, 2017 at 5:23:20 PM UTC-4, Micah Lee wrote:
>> 
>>> On 07/31/2017 04:43 AM, Marek Marczykowski-Górecki wrote:
>> (...), when I boot up, grub
>> 
>>> works, but then as soon as Qubes starts to boot the computer 
>>> reboots,
>> 
>>> and I end up back in grub.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Having the EXACT same issue with my T430s
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Have you tried the suggestions from "Rusty Bird":
>> 
>> 
>> I ran into the same behavior on a T420. Removing iommu=no-igfx
>> from the Xen command line fixed it. [1] If that doesn't help,
>> _adding_ console=vga should let you see what's going on.
>> 
>> 
>> @codgedodger: Did this help in your case?
>> 
>> 
>> Kind regards
>> 
>> 
>> - PhR
> 
> I had this issue on my Thinkpad X230 with a fresh install of 4.0-rc1
>  and the fix let me boot, but, when I shutdown, the system hangs and
>  when I hit escape on the shutdown screen, I see errors in device- 
> mapper failing to remove ioctl on the VMs and then a bunch of the
> error "failed to write error node for backend/" for xen-pciback and
> vbd.

for me fresh install on x230 using legacy boot and there is no grub, so
how make the iommu=no-igfx edit?

install again using EFI boot but installer stuck at beginning "Xen 4.8.1
(c/s) EFI loader" screen.

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[qubes-users] Re: Qubes OS 4.0 first release candidate (rc1) has been released!

2017-08-13 Thread korigodsky
On Sunday, August 13, 2017 at 5:39:06 PM UTC, korig...@gmail.com wrote:
> I believe it's Fedora 25 problem: 
> https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?id=226194

My mistake, it's Arch forum, but the problem is the same. I've booted from KDE 
Neon Live USB (Ubuntu-based with 4.8.0 kernel) and the touchpad works 
flawlessly.

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[qubes-users] Re: Qubes OS 4.0 first release candidate (rc1) has been released!

2017-08-13 Thread korigodsky
Hello,

I've installed 4.0-rc1 on Intel i5-7200u Asus UX410UA laptop. System was 
rebooting after grub menu in loop until I removed 'iommu=no-igfx' option, then 
it boots successfully. System does not have discrete GPU, VT-i is on, booting 
in CMS (BIOS Legacy mode), because in EFI mode system reboots immediately after 
selection of any option in installation image's boot menu.

I have problems with touchpad, though: it works with 0.1-1 sec lags, pointer 
jumps here and there. Sometimes it freezes for minutes. Several tens of i2c_hid 
errors added to dmesg per second:
i2c_hid i2c-ELAN1200:00: i2c_hid_get_input: incomplete report (16/16466).
I believe it's Fedora 25 problem: 
https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?id=226194

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Re: [qubes-users] Re: Qubes OS 4.0 first release candidate (rc1) has been released!

2017-08-11 Thread 'PhR' via qubes-users

Hello,

On 08/11/17 21:54, Foppe de Haan wrote:

Question: should windows-7 HVMs imported from R3.2 Just Work™ in R4?


additional questions:

1) Can I install Windows at all, since it seems that there are no 
qubes-windows-tools available .


2) What is the strategy with Windows Support in Qubes 4? In order to 
have Qubes ready for the enterprise business, I'd like to see seamless 
windows working in Qubes 4.


3) Is someone actually working on the Qubes Windows Tools? If not, would 
it help if we raise a budget as motivation?


- PhR

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Re: [qubes-users] Re: Qubes OS 4.0 first release candidate (rc1) has been released!

2017-08-11 Thread Foppe de Haan
Question: should windows-7 HVMs imported from R3.2 Just Work™ in R4?

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Re: [qubes-users] Re: Qubes OS 4.0 first release candidate (rc1) has been released!

2017-08-11 Thread blacklight
On Friday, 11 August 2017 17:02:13 UTC+2, yura...@gmail.com  wrote:
> On Friday, August 11, 2017 at 2:07:44 PM UTC, cooloutac wrote:
> > On Saturday, August 5, 2017 at 12:48:29 PM UTC-4, yura...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > On Saturday, August 5, 2017 at 4:38:23 PM UTC, cooloutac wrote:
> > > > On Saturday, August 5, 2017 at 12:28:32 PM UTC-4, yura...@gmail.com 
> > > > wrote:
> > > > > On Saturday, August 5, 2017 at 4:15:43 PM UTC, cooloutac wrote:
> > > > > > On Saturday, August 5, 2017 at 12:05:58 PM UTC-4, yura...@gmail.com 
> > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > On Saturday, August 5, 2017 at 3:56:25 PM UTC, cooloutac wrote:
> > > > > > > > On Saturday, August 5, 2017 at 11:34:32 AM UTC-4, 
> > > > > > > > yura...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > > > > > On Saturday, August 5, 2017 at 3:26:05 PM UTC, cooloutac 
> > > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > I'll be disappointed but I'm not going to be mad at them 
> > > > > > > > > > for trying to get paid, they deserve it. 
> > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > But I also wouldn't mind if they turned me into a money 
> > > > > > > > > > asset like windows so they can keep designing it for home 
> > > > > > > > > > users...lol
> > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > I look at things differently.  You are referring to linux 
> > > > > > > > > > architecture and developers,  while I'm referring to the 
> > > > > > > > > > majority of its users and community members, as the Product.
> > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > Alright, I respect that, we see some things differently. But 
> > > > > > > > > the discussion is good, it does not have to come down to 
> > > > > > > > > agreeing in the end. 
> > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > I don't like customers being turned into assets though. The 
> > > > > > > > > way I see it, it essentially make people "not people" 
> > > > > > > > > anymore, customer service is out of the window, it's all 
> > > > > > > > > about cheating and manipulating people into making the best 
> > > > > > > > > use of them, rather than making a fair trade between a 
> > > > > > > > > company and a customer. So I kind of black out when I see 
> > > > > > > > > business models that turn people into assets, I really, 
> > > > > > > > > really don't like that approach.
> > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > But I do really agree that I wouldn't mind Qubes taking a 
> > > > > > > > > fee, ask for more donations, or focus partly or entirely on 
> > > > > > > > > business users. They do a lot of hard work, and regardless of 
> > > > > > > > > the target group, the change will be for the better of 
> > > > > > > > > humanity. Perhaps it's asking too much for Qubes to focus on 
> > > > > > > > > both companies and end-users at the same time, nontheless, I 
> > > > > > > > > do hope they can manage to do that.
> > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > It's obvious they had their hands full on Qubes 4 too, so it 
> > > > > > > > > might just be that and we're reading too much into the issue 
> > > > > > > > > here at hand. But lets see, with time comes answers. I just 
> > > > > > > > > hope it wiill be in good time rather the long wait.
> > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > You are going to be someones asset or product as part of 
> > > > > > > > nature,  whether you know it or not.
> > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > The ends justify the means to me. Especially if it means being 
> > > > > > > > able to use Qubes or not.   
> > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > I also think its silly to not support secure boot, simply 
> > > > > > > > because the idea was created by Microsoft.   FSF/Richard 
> > > > > > > > Stallman supporters who are against secure boot,  is like 
> > > > > > > > Bernie supporters not voting for hillary.  Seems more spiteful 
> > > > > > > > then practical.
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > Well yeah, only if one allows oneself to become a victim. We can 
> > > > > > > oppose and create balance in the world. 
> > > > > > > Also secure boot is entirely pointless in a stateless computer. A 
> > > > > > > non-stateless computer has a lot of closed source firmware which 
> > > > > > > can be either buggy (which closed software have proven to almost 
> > > > > > > always be), and backdoored, which is either illegal, can be 
> > > > > > > abused by other than for the intended, and is at the fringe limit 
> > > > > > > crossing into the realm of human rights. 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > We don't need closed source firmware, it only creates problems, 
> > > > > > > and no benifit or solutions, other than maintaining market shares 
> > > > > > > through force, rather than surviving on good customer service and 
> > > > > > > customer support. 
> > > > > > > We don't need companies that leech on society. 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > I gather you think the world is ruled by bullies, and that you 
> > > > > > > think it's okay. If so, using that perspective, we just have to 
> > > > > > > become the bullies towards to big companies who wants to make use 
> > > > > > > of 

Re: [qubes-users] Re: Qubes OS 4.0 first release candidate (rc1) has been released!

2017-08-11 Thread yuraeitha
On Friday, August 11, 2017 at 2:07:44 PM UTC, cooloutac wrote:
> On Saturday, August 5, 2017 at 12:48:29 PM UTC-4, yura...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Saturday, August 5, 2017 at 4:38:23 PM UTC, cooloutac wrote:
> > > On Saturday, August 5, 2017 at 12:28:32 PM UTC-4, yura...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > On Saturday, August 5, 2017 at 4:15:43 PM UTC, cooloutac wrote:
> > > > > On Saturday, August 5, 2017 at 12:05:58 PM UTC-4, yura...@gmail.com 
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > On Saturday, August 5, 2017 at 3:56:25 PM UTC, cooloutac wrote:
> > > > > > > On Saturday, August 5, 2017 at 11:34:32 AM UTC-4, 
> > > > > > > yura...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > > > > On Saturday, August 5, 2017 at 3:26:05 PM UTC, cooloutac wrote:
> > > > > > > > > I'll be disappointed but I'm not going to be mad at them for 
> > > > > > > > > trying to get paid, they deserve it. 
> > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > But I also wouldn't mind if they turned me into a money asset 
> > > > > > > > > like windows so they can keep designing it for home 
> > > > > > > > > users...lol
> > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > I look at things differently.  You are referring to linux 
> > > > > > > > > architecture and developers,  while I'm referring to the 
> > > > > > > > > majority of its users and community members, as the Product.
> > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > Alright, I respect that, we see some things differently. But 
> > > > > > > > the discussion is good, it does not have to come down to 
> > > > > > > > agreeing in the end. 
> > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > I don't like customers being turned into assets though. The way 
> > > > > > > > I see it, it essentially make people "not people" anymore, 
> > > > > > > > customer service is out of the window, it's all about cheating 
> > > > > > > > and manipulating people into making the best use of them, 
> > > > > > > > rather than making a fair trade between a company and a 
> > > > > > > > customer. So I kind of black out when I see business models 
> > > > > > > > that turn people into assets, I really, really don't like that 
> > > > > > > > approach.
> > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > But I do really agree that I wouldn't mind Qubes taking a fee, 
> > > > > > > > ask for more donations, or focus partly or entirely on business 
> > > > > > > > users. They do a lot of hard work, and regardless of the target 
> > > > > > > > group, the change will be for the better of humanity. Perhaps 
> > > > > > > > it's asking too much for Qubes to focus on both companies and 
> > > > > > > > end-users at the same time, nontheless, I do hope they can 
> > > > > > > > manage to do that.
> > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > It's obvious they had their hands full on Qubes 4 too, so it 
> > > > > > > > might just be that and we're reading too much into the issue 
> > > > > > > > here at hand. But lets see, with time comes answers. I just 
> > > > > > > > hope it wiill be in good time rather the long wait.
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > You are going to be someones asset or product as part of nature,  
> > > > > > > whether you know it or not.
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > The ends justify the means to me. Especially if it means being 
> > > > > > > able to use Qubes or not.   
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > I also think its silly to not support secure boot, simply because 
> > > > > > > the idea was created by Microsoft.   FSF/Richard Stallman 
> > > > > > > supporters who are against secure boot,  is like Bernie 
> > > > > > > supporters not voting for hillary.  Seems more spiteful then 
> > > > > > > practical.
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > Well yeah, only if one allows oneself to become a victim. We can 
> > > > > > oppose and create balance in the world. 
> > > > > > Also secure boot is entirely pointless in a stateless computer. A 
> > > > > > non-stateless computer has a lot of closed source firmware which 
> > > > > > can be either buggy (which closed software have proven to almost 
> > > > > > always be), and backdoored, which is either illegal, can be abused 
> > > > > > by other than for the intended, and is at the fringe limit crossing 
> > > > > > into the realm of human rights. 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > We don't need closed source firmware, it only creates problems, and 
> > > > > > no benifit or solutions, other than maintaining market shares 
> > > > > > through force, rather than surviving on good customer service and 
> > > > > > customer support. 
> > > > > > We don't need companies that leech on society. 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > I gather you think the world is ruled by bullies, and that you 
> > > > > > think it's okay. If so, using that perspective, we just have to 
> > > > > > become the bullies towards to big companies who wants to make use 
> > > > > > of us. By the end of the day, we the people are what matter, 
> > > > > > humanity matter, not some greedy individuals behind a large 
> > > > > > company. Having said that, I'm not a fanatic against big companies, 
> > > > > > but they must behave, or I'll 

Re: [qubes-users] Re: Qubes OS 4.0 first release candidate (rc1) has been released!

2017-08-11 Thread cooloutac
On Saturday, August 5, 2017 at 12:48:29 PM UTC-4, yura...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Saturday, August 5, 2017 at 4:38:23 PM UTC, cooloutac wrote:
> > On Saturday, August 5, 2017 at 12:28:32 PM UTC-4, yura...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > On Saturday, August 5, 2017 at 4:15:43 PM UTC, cooloutac wrote:
> > > > On Saturday, August 5, 2017 at 12:05:58 PM UTC-4, yura...@gmail.com 
> > > > wrote:
> > > > > On Saturday, August 5, 2017 at 3:56:25 PM UTC, cooloutac wrote:
> > > > > > On Saturday, August 5, 2017 at 11:34:32 AM UTC-4, yura...@gmail.com 
> > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > On Saturday, August 5, 2017 at 3:26:05 PM UTC, cooloutac wrote:
> > > > > > > > I'll be disappointed but I'm not going to be mad at them for 
> > > > > > > > trying to get paid, they deserve it. 
> > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > But I also wouldn't mind if they turned me into a money asset 
> > > > > > > > like windows so they can keep designing it for home users...lol
> > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > I look at things differently.  You are referring to linux 
> > > > > > > > architecture and developers,  while I'm referring to the 
> > > > > > > > majority of its users and community members, as the Product.
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > Alright, I respect that, we see some things differently. But the 
> > > > > > > discussion is good, it does not have to come down to agreeing in 
> > > > > > > the end. 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > I don't like customers being turned into assets though. The way I 
> > > > > > > see it, it essentially make people "not people" anymore, customer 
> > > > > > > service is out of the window, it's all about cheating and 
> > > > > > > manipulating people into making the best use of them, rather than 
> > > > > > > making a fair trade between a company and a customer. So I kind 
> > > > > > > of black out when I see business models that turn people into 
> > > > > > > assets, I really, really don't like that approach.
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > But I do really agree that I wouldn't mind Qubes taking a fee, 
> > > > > > > ask for more donations, or focus partly or entirely on business 
> > > > > > > users. They do a lot of hard work, and regardless of the target 
> > > > > > > group, the change will be for the better of humanity. Perhaps 
> > > > > > > it's asking too much for Qubes to focus on both companies and 
> > > > > > > end-users at the same time, nontheless, I do hope they can manage 
> > > > > > > to do that.
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > It's obvious they had their hands full on Qubes 4 too, so it 
> > > > > > > might just be that and we're reading too much into the issue here 
> > > > > > > at hand. But lets see, with time comes answers. I just hope it 
> > > > > > > wiill be in good time rather the long wait.
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > You are going to be someones asset or product as part of nature,  
> > > > > > whether you know it or not.
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > The ends justify the means to me. Especially if it means being able 
> > > > > > to use Qubes or not.   
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > I also think its silly to not support secure boot, simply because 
> > > > > > the idea was created by Microsoft.   FSF/Richard Stallman 
> > > > > > supporters who are against secure boot,  is like Bernie supporters 
> > > > > > not voting for hillary.  Seems more spiteful then practical.
> > > > > 
> > > > > Well yeah, only if one allows oneself to become a victim. We can 
> > > > > oppose and create balance in the world. 
> > > > > Also secure boot is entirely pointless in a stateless computer. A 
> > > > > non-stateless computer has a lot of closed source firmware which can 
> > > > > be either buggy (which closed software have proven to almost always 
> > > > > be), and backdoored, which is either illegal, can be abused by other 
> > > > > than for the intended, and is at the fringe limit crossing into the 
> > > > > realm of human rights. 
> > > > > 
> > > > > We don't need closed source firmware, it only creates problems, and 
> > > > > no benifit or solutions, other than maintaining market shares through 
> > > > > force, rather than surviving on good customer service and customer 
> > > > > support. 
> > > > > We don't need companies that leech on society. 
> > > > > 
> > > > > I gather you think the world is ruled by bullies, and that you think 
> > > > > it's okay. If so, using that perspective, we just have to become the 
> > > > > bullies towards to big companies who wants to make use of us. By the 
> > > > > end of the day, we the people are what matter, humanity matter, not 
> > > > > some greedy individuals behind a large company. Having said that, I'm 
> > > > > not a fanatic against big companies, but they must behave, or I'll be 
> > > > > against them.
> > > > 
> > > > You can promote change, but we have to work with what we got right now.
> > > > 
> > > > And right now secure boot would of stopped hacking teams  insyde bios 
> > > > attacks,  which some experts said could be exploited remotely, and 
> 

Re: [qubes-users] Re: Qubes OS 4.0 first release candidate (rc1) has been released!

2017-08-08 Thread Franz
On Tue, Aug 1, 2017 at 5:47 PM, Marek Marczykowski-Górecki <
marma...@invisiblethingslab.com> wrote:

> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> Hash: SHA256
>
> On Tue, Aug 01, 2017 at 12:42:01PM -0700, mikihonz...@gmail.com wrote:
> > Some bugs, one pretty deal breaking:
>
> Thanks for the report.
>
> > If I remove an application from the appmenu, I am unable to set it
> again. More specifically I can set it in the VM-settings, but it won't show
> up in the Appmenu again.
> > The color of a VM can be changed, but again this is not reflected in the
> Appmenu. The VM itself (the running apps) have the correct window color.
>
> Created ticket for this:
> https://github.com/QubesOS/qubes-issues/issues/2952
> You can see there for a workaround.
>
> > Overall performance is OK, starting a Fedora VM takes longer than usual,
> about 1min. Work VM (not app) didn't start when I selected the chromium app
> from the appmenu. I had to start the VM from cli and then I could start
> Chromium.
>
> That's weird, did you get any error?
>
> > The Qubes Manager is greatly missed! Especially the backup-restore. I
> tried to restore VMs from 3.2 which didn't work at all:
> > First it showed a lot of my VMs with the prefix "disps" ? (The backup
> had only templates and 2 AppVms).
>
> This is because how 4.0 deals with different DispVM settings. To restore
> setting of 3.2 as much as possible, it create dispvm for each netvm used
> there.
>
> > I had to exclude -x a lot of Vms, honestly a pain when I just wanted one
> important VM to restore,
>
> Instead of excluding, you can list VMs to include, just after backup
> path.
>

It works Marek, many thanks. It is enough to list the VMs you want and all
other are automatically excluded.  This is really important because it is
fast and avoids errors. Listing lots VMs with -x I could not avoid errors
very difficult to identify because the error message gave no hints. But
just adding a few VMs at the end is easy to do and to check.


> > but got several python errors STDOUT and read errors. Restoring all was
> the same and I had a list with 20 broken VMs, no apps in their menu,
> starting gave libxl error. I used verbose and the 2 ignore options.
>
> Do you have those messages saved somewhere? That would be really useful
> to track down the issue...
>
> > Removing them with cli, all a bit tedious ;(
> >
> > Finally, If someone knows how to create a VM for iso booting from CLI I
> would greatly appreciate a short info here.
>
> This is a missing part...
> https://github.com/QubesOS/qubes-issues/issues/2951
>
> > Looking forward to some docs/explanation on the changed qvm* tools since
> we are now supposed to do it from the command line.
>
> There will be separate post about it, but see below.
>
> > E.g. How to make net/proxy/app VM (qvm-create has some classes now...?)
>
> This one is possible also from GUI - in main menu you have "Create Qubes
> VM" option and there you have "provides network" option which allow you
> to create net/proxy VM.
>
> > qvm-prefs options (kernel boot extern/intern and netvm settings),
>
> There is qvm-prefs --help-properties, which shows details about each
> property.
>
> > changes with LVM pools(? there was a option --boot-root-from-file?) ,
> booting VM from iso file etc.
>
> See above...
>
> - --
> Best Regards,
> Marek Marczykowski-Górecki
> Invisible Things Lab
> A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
> Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
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Re: [qubes-users] Re: Qubes OS 4.0 first release candidate (rc1) has been released!

2017-08-06 Thread 'PhR' via qubes-users



On 08/06/17 09:16, Foppe de Haan wrote:



   Notifications - I haven't seen any notifications at all, like
 starting/stopping of VMs or when a new USB-device has been
 attached. Would like to see the notification from Qubes 3.2 in
 Qubes 4

Agreed.



   Positioning of Blockdevice and Running VMs widgets:

 I see my self moving the mouse from left to right a lot, just to
 start programs and get information (from the widgets) - again
 Qubes Manager was much more comfortable.

few options for you:
- Alt-f2 (or alt-f1+arrow keys) is your friend. :p
- you can also choose to permanently move either the start menu or the widgets 
to the left of the menu bar. :)
Ok, I haven't used Alt+F2 before, this looks interesting, but I haven't 
figured out how to use it.

Does it offers auto-completion?


 Is it possible to have something like a desktop widget, showing
 all running AppVMs?

Would a toggle to permanently expand/unfold the manager-widget do? Or do you 
also want additional features accessible from that QM-widget?


It seems that we need to restart Qubes 4rc1 after reinstallation at 
least one or two times, so that the widgets are working - maybe this 
should be added to the documentation (?)

I have also updated dom0, maybe this brought also the solution?
Now all running VMs are shown in the widget, before I could only see 
sys-net and sys-firewall there.



   IDEA "QuickstartBar": Could we get something like a shortcut
 so that a launch bar will open up, where I can enter either bash
 commands or something like: untrusted:firefox and then Firefox
 opens in my AppVM named untrusted (general syntax:
 AppVM:Command/Program? task completion would even be easier?

Beyond what you can do with alt-f2 (in xfce) + searching + arrow key navigation?


As mentioned, I havent used that before, can this be used without 
mouse-navigation?
I've to enter untrusted: Terminal but when hitting enter, nothing 
happens, except a red stop sign.
need to find out the syntax of that quick launcher, having the graphical 
menu available from the quick-launcher is a nice addon, but this needs 
more time, then just using the start menu.



   The AppVM widget is only showing sys-usb, sys-net,
 sys-firewall, not other AppVMs which are running.

If this concerns VMs you've created yourself, this should probably be fixed in 
the next update. Or do you mean the 'devices' widget?


This has been fixed, after some restarts, I can now also see usb devices 
in the device widget and can attach them from there to the running VMs - 
very nice.

I like having block and usb devices in one view.
What would be nice, but I don't know if this can be done:
If a device has been attached to a VM, maybe it can be highlighted or 
marked with a symbol in the device widget menu.
As such I can see directly which devices are attached. currently I need 
to open the menu entry and I can then see, which AppVM has the device 
attached (can be identified because it is grayed out and offers an eject 
button).



   The "Create Qubes VM" menu entry could also be enhanced so
 that we have the option to create a clone from an existing VM.
 Maybe via something like an additional option "Clone from
 "

Not sure I'd use this often enough for it to make sense -- isn't this part of 
what dispvms are for?

Maybe you are right, but now I have to go to terminal to clone a vm.
What I am doing is, that I leave the default templates untouched and 
create a clone of them, which I then use for my AppVMs. This makes sure 
that I can always test an AppVM with the "original" default Qubes 
template for troubleshooting.



   Working with USB devices: Could we improve the handling of usb
 devices. Currently it seems that it is impossible to add a
 usb-device to a VM without touching the terminal.

Huh? That should be there now, even if it doesn't look the part, and isn't very 
intuitive (devices widget in notification area? Or doesn't that do usb devices 
yet? (I can't test this myself due to a different bug)).
Solved, my mistake as mentioned above, it seems that Qubes needs one or 
two restarts until the Widgets are working correctly.

A possible bug (?):
If you shutdown sys-usb the USB-devices are gone from the list, and 
won't come back when restarting sys-usb.

Another strange effect:
I can then see entries called QEMU_QEMU_USB_Tablet_42 for every running 
AppVM.
Is this the virtual USB Hub in every AppVM? I think this should be 
hidden from the widget.



 From user perspective I would like to get a notification popup
 as soon as I attach something to my laptop, then allowing me to
 choose with the next click where to attach this device to.

 If I am attaching a device it is most time because I need to get
 this device into an AppVM.


When I attach a usb device through the 

Re: [qubes-users] Re: Qubes OS 4.0 first release candidate (rc1) has been released!

2017-08-06 Thread Foppe de Haan
On Sunday, August 6, 2017 at 2:11:41 AM UTC+2, PR wrote:
> Hello,
hi. :)
>   Notifications - I haven't seen any notifications at all, like
> starting/stopping of VMs or when a new USB-device has been
> attached. Would like to see the notification from Qubes 3.2 in
> Qubes 4
Agreed.
>   Positioning of Blockdevice and Running VMs widgets:
> 
> I see my self moving the mouse from left to right a lot, just to
> start programs and get information (from the widgets) - again
> Qubes Manager was much more comfortable.
few options for you:
- Alt-f2 (or alt-f1+arrow keys) is your friend. :p 
- you can also choose to permanently move either the start menu or the widgets 
to the left of the menu bar. :)
> Is it possible to have something like a desktop widget, showing
> all running AppVMs?
Would a toggle to permanently expand/unfold the manager-widget do? Or do you 
also want additional features accessible from that QM-widget?

>   IDEA "QuickstartBar": Could we get something like a shortcut
> so that a launch bar will open up, where I can enter either bash
> commands or something like: untrusted:firefox and then Firefox
> opens in my AppVM named untrusted (general syntax:
> AppVM:Command/Program? task completion would even be easier?
Beyond what you can do with alt-f2 (in xfce) + searching + arrow key navigation?
>   The AppVM widget is only showing sys-usb, sys-net,
> sys-firewall, not other AppVMs which are running.
If this concerns VMs you've created yourself, this should probably be fixed in 
the next update. Or do you mean the 'devices' widget?

   
>   The "Create Qubes VM" menu entry could also be enhanced so
> that we have the option to create a clone from an existing VM.
> Maybe via something like an additional option "Clone from
> "
Not sure I'd use this often enough for it to make sense -- isn't this part of 
what dispvms are for?

>   Working with USB devices: Could we improve the handling of usb
> devices. Currently it seems that it is impossible to add a
> usb-device to a VM without touching the terminal.
Huh? That should be there now, even if it doesn't look the part, and isn't very 
intuitive (devices widget in notification area? Or doesn't that do usb devices 
yet? (I can't test this myself due to a different bug)).

> From user perspective I would like to get a notification popup
> as soon as I attach something to my laptop, then allowing me to
> choose with the next click where to attach this device to.
> 
> If I am attaching a device it is most time because I need to get
> this device into an AppVM.
>   Fonts/Display Resolution seems to be different compared to
> Qubes 3.2.
> 
> My Laptop has a 3K resolution 2880x1620 Pixels. In 4rc1 the
> qubes window frames (which seems to be rendered in dom0) are
> small, but the content in the window (content of the AppVM) is
> using a bigger font (DPI-size).
> 
> How can this be resolved?
Does this help? 
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/qubes-users/hidpi$20vm|sort:relevance/qubes-users/GQOLttJeJTg/hubZ7gX8AwAJ
 ?

>   qvm-top ... seems to be gone, how can I quickly get a list of
> all running VMs?
try qvm-ls


> I now have to enter the name of the target AppVM when pasting
> via global clipboard (Shift+Ctrl+V). While this adds more
> security, it is a pain for the user, when copying a lot. Could
> it make possible to have the option to get a slightly easier
> copy process:
> 
> the current appvm, to which the window belongs is already
> selected in the list of the target VM.
> 
> If the user hits Enter two (!) times, the content of clipboard
> would be pasted into this AppVM clipboard.
Agreed.

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Re: [qubes-users] Re: Qubes OS 4.0 first release candidate (rc1) has been released!

2017-08-05 Thread 'PhR' via qubes-users

Hello,

after having problems to install Qubes on my X200 I have installed 4rc1 
on my other laptop (Lenovo W540). Installation was sucessfull and the 
only tweak I needed was to remove iommu=no-igfx from grub boot.


I have uses Qubes 4rc1 now for ~2,5 hours, my feedback so far:

positive:

 * in Qubes 3.2 the whole system froozes for a few seconds when a new
   VM was started.
   In Qubes 4rc1 this seems to be solved.

list of things that might need improvement, meant as constructive 
feedback - of course I am very thanksfull to the work of the Qubes Team.


 * when launching an application from the start menu I would like to
   see a notification about the user interaction. Currently nothing
   happens, if the new apps needs a few seconds to start the user might
   click again
 * Notifications - I haven't seen any notifications at all, like
   starting/stopping of VMs or when a new USB-device has been attached.
   Would like to see the notification from Qubes 3.2 in Qubes 4
 * After setting up various AppVMs, working with templates, I feel that
   Qubes Manager is definitly missing as it allowed me to have a quick
   look, what is currently running and also attaching block devices was
   much easier.
   If I plugin an USB harddrive I see no notification and I need to
   attach devices via terminal, to much user interactions, compared to
   a graphical solution
 * Positioning of Blockdevice and Running VMs widgets:
   I see my self moving the mouse from left to right a lot, just to
   start programs and get information (from the widgets) - again Qubes
   Manager was much more comfortable.
   Is it possible to have something like a desktop widget, showing all
   running AppVMs?
 * IDEA "QuickstartBar": Could we get something like a shortcut so that
   a launch bar will open up, where I can enter either bash commands or
   something like: untrusted:firefox and then Firefox opens in my AppVM
   named untrusted (general syntax: AppVM:Command/Program? task
   completion would even be easier?
 * The AppVM widget is only showing sys-usb, sys-net, sys-firewall, not
   other AppVMs which are running.
 * In the "Start Menu" (left side) I would like to additional commands
   like (Start VM, Shutdown VM, Remove VM) maybe separated or at the
   beginning or end of the menu?
   Remove VM should of cause show a dialog which needs further user
   interaction.
 * The "Create Qubes VM" menu entry could also be enhanced so that we
   have the option to create a clone from an existing VM. Maybe via
   something like an additional option "Clone from "
 * It seems impossible to hide VMs or VM-templates from the "Start
   Menu", whoch could be done via qvm-prefs in Qubes 3.2. Why? This
   setting was very usefull.
 * Working with USB devices: Could we improve the handling of usb
   devices. Currently it seems that it is impossible to add a
   usb-device to a VM without touching the terminal.
   Maybe we need an usb widget or a submenu in the USB-App-VM?
From user perspective I would like to get a notification popup as
   soon as I attach something to my laptop, then allowing me to choose
   with the next click where to attach this device to.
   If I am attaching a device it is most time because I need to get
   this device into an AppVM.
 * Fonts/Display Resolution seems to be different compared to Qubes 3.2.
   My Laptop has a 3K resolution 2880x1620 Pixels. In 4rc1 the qubes
   window frames (which seems to be rendered in dom0) are small, but
   the content in the window (content of the AppVM) is using a bigger
   font (DPI-size).
   How can this be resolved?
 * qvm-top ... seems to be gone, how can I quickly get a list of all
   running VMs?
   something like: qvm-ls --running
 * Copy & Paste between AppVMs:
   I now have to enter the name of the target AppVM when pasting via
   global clipboard (Shift+Ctrl+V). While this adds more security, it
   is a pain for the user, when copying a lot. Could it make possible
   to have the option to get a slightly easier copy process:
   the current appvm, to which the window belongs is already selected
   in the list of the target VM.
   If the user hits Enter two (!) times, the content of clipboard would
   be pasted into this AppVM clipboard.
   Benefit: additional security as not content will be copied by
   coincident (you need to press Enter twice) but easier copy & paste
   process when copying lots of entries between two AppVms.
 * Backup and Restore of VMs should be possible via GUI not only per
   terminal.

feedback so far, I continue to test.

- PhR


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Re: [qubes-users] Re: Qubes OS 4.0 first release candidate (rc1) has been released!

2017-08-05 Thread yuraeitha
On Saturday, August 5, 2017 at 4:38:23 PM UTC, cooloutac wrote:
> On Saturday, August 5, 2017 at 12:28:32 PM UTC-4, yura...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Saturday, August 5, 2017 at 4:15:43 PM UTC, cooloutac wrote:
> > > On Saturday, August 5, 2017 at 12:05:58 PM UTC-4, yura...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > On Saturday, August 5, 2017 at 3:56:25 PM UTC, cooloutac wrote:
> > > > > On Saturday, August 5, 2017 at 11:34:32 AM UTC-4, yura...@gmail.com 
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > On Saturday, August 5, 2017 at 3:26:05 PM UTC, cooloutac wrote:
> > > > > > > I'll be disappointed but I'm not going to be mad at them for 
> > > > > > > trying to get paid, they deserve it. 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > But I also wouldn't mind if they turned me into a money asset 
> > > > > > > like windows so they can keep designing it for home users...lol
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > I look at things differently.  You are referring to linux 
> > > > > > > architecture and developers,  while I'm referring to the majority 
> > > > > > > of its users and community members, as the Product.
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > Alright, I respect that, we see some things differently. But the 
> > > > > > discussion is good, it does not have to come down to agreeing in 
> > > > > > the end. 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > I don't like customers being turned into assets though. The way I 
> > > > > > see it, it essentially make people "not people" anymore, customer 
> > > > > > service is out of the window, it's all about cheating and 
> > > > > > manipulating people into making the best use of them, rather than 
> > > > > > making a fair trade between a company and a customer. So I kind of 
> > > > > > black out when I see business models that turn people into assets, 
> > > > > > I really, really don't like that approach.
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > But I do really agree that I wouldn't mind Qubes taking a fee, ask 
> > > > > > for more donations, or focus partly or entirely on business users. 
> > > > > > They do a lot of hard work, and regardless of the target group, the 
> > > > > > change will be for the better of humanity. Perhaps it's asking too 
> > > > > > much for Qubes to focus on both companies and end-users at the same 
> > > > > > time, nontheless, I do hope they can manage to do that.
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > It's obvious they had their hands full on Qubes 4 too, so it might 
> > > > > > just be that and we're reading too much into the issue here at 
> > > > > > hand. But lets see, with time comes answers. I just hope it wiill 
> > > > > > be in good time rather the long wait.
> > > > > 
> > > > > You are going to be someones asset or product as part of nature,  
> > > > > whether you know it or not.
> > > > > 
> > > > > The ends justify the means to me. Especially if it means being able 
> > > > > to use Qubes or not.   
> > > > > 
> > > > > I also think its silly to not support secure boot, simply because the 
> > > > > idea was created by Microsoft.   FSF/Richard Stallman supporters who 
> > > > > are against secure boot,  is like Bernie supporters not voting for 
> > > > > hillary.  Seems more spiteful then practical.
> > > > 
> > > > Well yeah, only if one allows oneself to become a victim. We can oppose 
> > > > and create balance in the world. 
> > > > Also secure boot is entirely pointless in a stateless computer. A 
> > > > non-stateless computer has a lot of closed source firmware which can be 
> > > > either buggy (which closed software have proven to almost always be), 
> > > > and backdoored, which is either illegal, can be abused by other than 
> > > > for the intended, and is at the fringe limit crossing into the realm of 
> > > > human rights. 
> > > > 
> > > > We don't need closed source firmware, it only creates problems, and no 
> > > > benifit or solutions, other than maintaining market shares through 
> > > > force, rather than surviving on good customer service and customer 
> > > > support. 
> > > > We don't need companies that leech on society. 
> > > > 
> > > > I gather you think the world is ruled by bullies, and that you think 
> > > > it's okay. If so, using that perspective, we just have to become the 
> > > > bullies towards to big companies who wants to make use of us. By the 
> > > > end of the day, we the people are what matter, humanity matter, not 
> > > > some greedy individuals behind a large company. Having said that, I'm 
> > > > not a fanatic against big companies, but they must behave, or I'll be 
> > > > against them.
> > > 
> > > You can promote change, but we have to work with what we got right now.
> > > 
> > > And right now secure boot would of stopped hacking teams  insyde bios 
> > > attacks,  which some experts said could be exploited remotely, and would 
> > > of worked on most ami bios as well.   Without it whats the point?  Why 
> > > even bother with Qubes?  Like you said hardware has backdoors, and if 
> > > bios also has no protections.  Whats the point then? 
> > > 
> > > The problem for me is this 

Re: [qubes-users] Re: Qubes OS 4.0 first release candidate (rc1) has been released!

2017-08-05 Thread cooloutac
On Saturday, August 5, 2017 at 12:28:32 PM UTC-4, yura...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Saturday, August 5, 2017 at 4:15:43 PM UTC, cooloutac wrote:
> > On Saturday, August 5, 2017 at 12:05:58 PM UTC-4, yura...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > On Saturday, August 5, 2017 at 3:56:25 PM UTC, cooloutac wrote:
> > > > On Saturday, August 5, 2017 at 11:34:32 AM UTC-4, yura...@gmail.com 
> > > > wrote:
> > > > > On Saturday, August 5, 2017 at 3:26:05 PM UTC, cooloutac wrote:
> > > > > > I'll be disappointed but I'm not going to be mad at them for trying 
> > > > > > to get paid, they deserve it. 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > But I also wouldn't mind if they turned me into a money asset like 
> > > > > > windows so they can keep designing it for home users...lol
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > I look at things differently.  You are referring to linux 
> > > > > > architecture and developers,  while I'm referring to the majority 
> > > > > > of its users and community members, as the Product.
> > > > > 
> > > > > Alright, I respect that, we see some things differently. But the 
> > > > > discussion is good, it does not have to come down to agreeing in the 
> > > > > end. 
> > > > > 
> > > > > I don't like customers being turned into assets though. The way I see 
> > > > > it, it essentially make people "not people" anymore, customer service 
> > > > > is out of the window, it's all about cheating and manipulating people 
> > > > > into making the best use of them, rather than making a fair trade 
> > > > > between a company and a customer. So I kind of black out when I see 
> > > > > business models that turn people into assets, I really, really don't 
> > > > > like that approach.
> > > > > 
> > > > > But I do really agree that I wouldn't mind Qubes taking a fee, ask 
> > > > > for more donations, or focus partly or entirely on business users. 
> > > > > They do a lot of hard work, and regardless of the target group, the 
> > > > > change will be for the better of humanity. Perhaps it's asking too 
> > > > > much for Qubes to focus on both companies and end-users at the same 
> > > > > time, nontheless, I do hope they can manage to do that.
> > > > > 
> > > > > It's obvious they had their hands full on Qubes 4 too, so it might 
> > > > > just be that and we're reading too much into the issue here at hand. 
> > > > > But lets see, with time comes answers. I just hope it wiill be in 
> > > > > good time rather the long wait.
> > > > 
> > > > You are going to be someones asset or product as part of nature,  
> > > > whether you know it or not.
> > > > 
> > > > The ends justify the means to me. Especially if it means being able to 
> > > > use Qubes or not.   
> > > > 
> > > > I also think its silly to not support secure boot, simply because the 
> > > > idea was created by Microsoft.   FSF/Richard Stallman supporters who 
> > > > are against secure boot,  is like Bernie supporters not voting for 
> > > > hillary.  Seems more spiteful then practical.
> > > 
> > > Well yeah, only if one allows oneself to become a victim. We can oppose 
> > > and create balance in the world. 
> > > Also secure boot is entirely pointless in a stateless computer. A 
> > > non-stateless computer has a lot of closed source firmware which can be 
> > > either buggy (which closed software have proven to almost always be), and 
> > > backdoored, which is either illegal, can be abused by other than for the 
> > > intended, and is at the fringe limit crossing into the realm of human 
> > > rights. 
> > > 
> > > We don't need closed source firmware, it only creates problems, and no 
> > > benifit or solutions, other than maintaining market shares through force, 
> > > rather than surviving on good customer service and customer support. 
> > > We don't need companies that leech on society. 
> > > 
> > > I gather you think the world is ruled by bullies, and that you think it's 
> > > okay. If so, using that perspective, we just have to become the bullies 
> > > towards to big companies who wants to make use of us. By the end of the 
> > > day, we the people are what matter, humanity matter, not some greedy 
> > > individuals behind a large company. Having said that, I'm not a fanatic 
> > > against big companies, but they must behave, or I'll be against them.
> > 
> > You can promote change, but we have to work with what we got right now.
> > 
> > And right now secure boot would of stopped hacking teams  insyde bios 
> > attacks,  which some experts said could be exploited remotely, and would of 
> > worked on most ami bios as well.   Without it whats the point?  Why even 
> > bother with Qubes?  Like you said hardware has backdoors, and if bios also 
> > has no protections.  Whats the point then? 
> > 
> > The problem for me is this is not a cool tech experiment.  Its for 
> > practical use.
> 
> ah I see, I follow you now.
> I'm not entirely sure how effective Anti-Evil-Maid is into detecting change 
> in the BIOS/UEFI, perhaps someone can enlighten us on the topic? Can 

Re: [qubes-users] Re: Qubes OS 4.0 first release candidate (rc1) has been released!

2017-08-05 Thread yuraeitha
On Saturday, August 5, 2017 at 4:15:43 PM UTC, cooloutac wrote:
> On Saturday, August 5, 2017 at 12:05:58 PM UTC-4, yura...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Saturday, August 5, 2017 at 3:56:25 PM UTC, cooloutac wrote:
> > > On Saturday, August 5, 2017 at 11:34:32 AM UTC-4, yura...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > On Saturday, August 5, 2017 at 3:26:05 PM UTC, cooloutac wrote:
> > > > > I'll be disappointed but I'm not going to be mad at them for trying 
> > > > > to get paid, they deserve it. 
> > > > > 
> > > > > But I also wouldn't mind if they turned me into a money asset like 
> > > > > windows so they can keep designing it for home users...lol
> > > > > 
> > > > > I look at things differently.  You are referring to linux 
> > > > > architecture and developers,  while I'm referring to the majority of 
> > > > > its users and community members, as the Product.
> > > > 
> > > > Alright, I respect that, we see some things differently. But the 
> > > > discussion is good, it does not have to come down to agreeing in the 
> > > > end. 
> > > > 
> > > > I don't like customers being turned into assets though. The way I see 
> > > > it, it essentially make people "not people" anymore, customer service 
> > > > is out of the window, it's all about cheating and manipulating people 
> > > > into making the best use of them, rather than making a fair trade 
> > > > between a company and a customer. So I kind of black out when I see 
> > > > business models that turn people into assets, I really, really don't 
> > > > like that approach.
> > > > 
> > > > But I do really agree that I wouldn't mind Qubes taking a fee, ask for 
> > > > more donations, or focus partly or entirely on business users. They do 
> > > > a lot of hard work, and regardless of the target group, the change will 
> > > > be for the better of humanity. Perhaps it's asking too much for Qubes 
> > > > to focus on both companies and end-users at the same time, nontheless, 
> > > > I do hope they can manage to do that.
> > > > 
> > > > It's obvious they had their hands full on Qubes 4 too, so it might just 
> > > > be that and we're reading too much into the issue here at hand. But 
> > > > lets see, with time comes answers. I just hope it wiill be in good time 
> > > > rather the long wait.
> > > 
> > > You are going to be someones asset or product as part of nature,  whether 
> > > you know it or not.
> > > 
> > > The ends justify the means to me. Especially if it means being able to 
> > > use Qubes or not.   
> > > 
> > > I also think its silly to not support secure boot, simply because the 
> > > idea was created by Microsoft.   FSF/Richard Stallman supporters who are 
> > > against secure boot,  is like Bernie supporters not voting for hillary.  
> > > Seems more spiteful then practical.
> > 
> > Well yeah, only if one allows oneself to become a victim. We can oppose and 
> > create balance in the world. 
> > Also secure boot is entirely pointless in a stateless computer. A 
> > non-stateless computer has a lot of closed source firmware which can be 
> > either buggy (which closed software have proven to almost always be), and 
> > backdoored, which is either illegal, can be abused by other than for the 
> > intended, and is at the fringe limit crossing into the realm of human 
> > rights. 
> > 
> > We don't need closed source firmware, it only creates problems, and no 
> > benifit or solutions, other than maintaining market shares through force, 
> > rather than surviving on good customer service and customer support. 
> > We don't need companies that leech on society. 
> > 
> > I gather you think the world is ruled by bullies, and that you think it's 
> > okay. If so, using that perspective, we just have to become the bullies 
> > towards to big companies who wants to make use of us. By the end of the 
> > day, we the people are what matter, humanity matter, not some greedy 
> > individuals behind a large company. Having said that, I'm not a fanatic 
> > against big companies, but they must behave, or I'll be against them.
> 
> You can promote change, but we have to work with what we got right now.
> 
> And right now secure boot would of stopped hacking teams  insyde bios 
> attacks,  which some experts said could be exploited remotely, and would of 
> worked on most ami bios as well.   Without it whats the point?  Why even 
> bother with Qubes?  Like you said hardware has backdoors, and if bios also 
> has no protections.  Whats the point then? 
> 
> The problem for me is this is not a cool tech experiment.  Its for practical 
> use.

ah I see, I follow you now.
I'm not entirely sure how effective Anti-Evil-Maid is into detecting change in 
the BIOS/UEFI, perhaps someone can enlighten us on the topic? Can AEM be 
tricked or bypassed? Practically or theoretically? 

Though Joanna (head of Qubes) have said it might just be some years, if I 
remember correctly, before we might see true stateless computers. I'm not sure 
if anyone with resources would want to 

Re: [qubes-users] Re: Qubes OS 4.0 first release candidate (rc1) has been released!

2017-08-05 Thread cooloutac
On Saturday, August 5, 2017 at 12:05:58 PM UTC-4, yura...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Saturday, August 5, 2017 at 3:56:25 PM UTC, cooloutac wrote:
> > On Saturday, August 5, 2017 at 11:34:32 AM UTC-4, yura...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > On Saturday, August 5, 2017 at 3:26:05 PM UTC, cooloutac wrote:
> > > > I'll be disappointed but I'm not going to be mad at them for trying to 
> > > > get paid, they deserve it. 
> > > > 
> > > > But I also wouldn't mind if they turned me into a money asset like 
> > > > windows so they can keep designing it for home users...lol
> > > > 
> > > > I look at things differently.  You are referring to linux architecture 
> > > > and developers,  while I'm referring to the majority of its users and 
> > > > community members, as the Product.
> > > 
> > > Alright, I respect that, we see some things differently. But the 
> > > discussion is good, it does not have to come down to agreeing in the end. 
> > > 
> > > I don't like customers being turned into assets though. The way I see it, 
> > > it essentially make people "not people" anymore, customer service is out 
> > > of the window, it's all about cheating and manipulating people into 
> > > making the best use of them, rather than making a fair trade between a 
> > > company and a customer. So I kind of black out when I see business models 
> > > that turn people into assets, I really, really don't like that approach.
> > > 
> > > But I do really agree that I wouldn't mind Qubes taking a fee, ask for 
> > > more donations, or focus partly or entirely on business users. They do a 
> > > lot of hard work, and regardless of the target group, the change will be 
> > > for the better of humanity. Perhaps it's asking too much for Qubes to 
> > > focus on both companies and end-users at the same time, nontheless, I do 
> > > hope they can manage to do that.
> > > 
> > > It's obvious they had their hands full on Qubes 4 too, so it might just 
> > > be that and we're reading too much into the issue here at hand. But lets 
> > > see, with time comes answers. I just hope it wiill be in good time rather 
> > > the long wait.
> > 
> > You are going to be someones asset or product as part of nature,  whether 
> > you know it or not.
> > 
> > The ends justify the means to me. Especially if it means being able to use 
> > Qubes or not.   
> > 
> > I also think its silly to not support secure boot, simply because the idea 
> > was created by Microsoft.   FSF/Richard Stallman supporters who are against 
> > secure boot,  is like Bernie supporters not voting for hillary.  Seems more 
> > spiteful then practical.
> 
> Well yeah, only if one allows oneself to become a victim. We can oppose and 
> create balance in the world. 
> Also secure boot is entirely pointless in a stateless computer. A 
> non-stateless computer has a lot of closed source firmware which can be 
> either buggy (which closed software have proven to almost always be), and 
> backdoored, which is either illegal, can be abused by other than for the 
> intended, and is at the fringe limit crossing into the realm of human rights. 
> 
> We don't need closed source firmware, it only creates problems, and no 
> benifit or solutions, other than maintaining market shares through force, 
> rather than surviving on good customer service and customer support. 
> We don't need companies that leech on society. 
> 
> I gather you think the world is ruled by bullies, and that you think it's 
> okay. If so, using that perspective, we just have to become the bullies 
> towards to big companies who wants to make use of us. By the end of the day, 
> we the people are what matter, humanity matter, not some greedy individuals 
> behind a large company. Having said that, I'm not a fanatic against big 
> companies, but they must behave, or I'll be against them.

You can promote change, but we have to work with what we got right now.

And right now secure boot would of stopped hacking teams  insyde bios attacks,  
which some experts said could be exploited remotely, and would of worked on 
most ami bios as well.   Without it whats the point?  Why even bother with 
Qubes?  Like you said hardware has backdoors, and if bios also has no 
protections.  Whats the point then? 

The problem for me is this is not a cool tech experiment.  Its for practical 
use.

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Re: [qubes-users] Re: Qubes OS 4.0 first release candidate (rc1) has been released!

2017-08-05 Thread yuraeitha
On Saturday, August 5, 2017 at 3:56:25 PM UTC, cooloutac wrote:
> On Saturday, August 5, 2017 at 11:34:32 AM UTC-4, yura...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Saturday, August 5, 2017 at 3:26:05 PM UTC, cooloutac wrote:
> > > I'll be disappointed but I'm not going to be mad at them for trying to 
> > > get paid, they deserve it. 
> > > 
> > > But I also wouldn't mind if they turned me into a money asset like 
> > > windows so they can keep designing it for home users...lol
> > > 
> > > I look at things differently.  You are referring to linux architecture 
> > > and developers,  while I'm referring to the majority of its users and 
> > > community members, as the Product.
> > 
> > Alright, I respect that, we see some things differently. But the discussion 
> > is good, it does not have to come down to agreeing in the end. 
> > 
> > I don't like customers being turned into assets though. The way I see it, 
> > it essentially make people "not people" anymore, customer service is out of 
> > the window, it's all about cheating and manipulating people into making the 
> > best use of them, rather than making a fair trade between a company and a 
> > customer. So I kind of black out when I see business models that turn 
> > people into assets, I really, really don't like that approach.
> > 
> > But I do really agree that I wouldn't mind Qubes taking a fee, ask for more 
> > donations, or focus partly or entirely on business users. They do a lot of 
> > hard work, and regardless of the target group, the change will be for the 
> > better of humanity. Perhaps it's asking too much for Qubes to focus on both 
> > companies and end-users at the same time, nontheless, I do hope they can 
> > manage to do that.
> > 
> > It's obvious they had their hands full on Qubes 4 too, so it might just be 
> > that and we're reading too much into the issue here at hand. But lets see, 
> > with time comes answers. I just hope it wiill be in good time rather the 
> > long wait.
> 
> You are going to be someones asset or product as part of nature,  whether you 
> know it or not.
> 
> The ends justify the means to me. Especially if it means being able to use 
> Qubes or not.   
> 
> I also think its silly to not support secure boot, simply because the idea 
> was created by Microsoft.   FSF/Richard Stallman supporters who are against 
> secure boot,  is like Bernie supporters not voting for hillary.  Seems more 
> spiteful then practical.

Well yeah, only if one allows oneself to become a victim. We can oppose and 
create balance in the world. 
Also secure boot is entirely pointless in a stateless computer. A non-stateless 
computer has a lot of closed source firmware which can be either buggy (which 
closed software have proven to almost always be), and backdoored, which is 
either illegal, can be abused by other than for the intended, and is at the 
fringe limit crossing into the realm of human rights. 

We don't need closed source firmware, it only creates problems, and no benifit 
or solutions, other than maintaining market shares through force, rather than 
surviving on good customer service and customer support. 
We don't need companies that leech on society. 

I gather you think the world is ruled by bullies, and that you think it's okay. 
If so, using that perspective, we just have to become the bullies towards to 
big companies who wants to make use of us. By the end of the day, we the people 
are what matter, humanity matter, not some greedy individuals behind a large 
company. Having said that, I'm not a fanatic against big companies, but they 
must behave, or I'll be against them.

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Re: [qubes-users] Re: Qubes OS 4.0 first release candidate (rc1) has been released!

2017-08-05 Thread cooloutac
ever hear of the saying cut your nose to spite your face?  Linux communities 
are the epitome of that.

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Re: [qubes-users] Re: Qubes OS 4.0 first release candidate (rc1) has been released!

2017-08-05 Thread cooloutac
The reason why redhat, ubuntu, and gentoo jumped on the secure boot train, not 
just for the security benefits, but because they know if they didn't linux 
would indeed be left out in the cold with nothing to live on.

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Re: [qubes-users] Re: Qubes OS 4.0 first release candidate (rc1) has been released!

2017-08-05 Thread cooloutac
On Saturday, August 5, 2017 at 11:59:19 AM UTC-4, yura...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Saturday, August 5, 2017 at 3:50:18 PM UTC, cooloutac wrote:
> > On Saturday, August 5, 2017 at 11:31:27 AM UTC-4, PR wrote:
> > > Hello,
> > > 
> > > 
> > > I think it makes sense to concentrate more on what we (different user 
> > > types/groups) would like to see, instead of having some kind of 'flame 
> > > war' GUI vs. Terminal.
> > > 
> > > 
> > > The good thing was always that you can built very complicated workflows 
> > > using  the terminal/bash scrips make life easier and that you can have a 
> > > GUI for 80% of the standard tasks for "normal users", which are more 
> > > interested in using their computer as a tool instead of tweaking around.
> > > 
> > > 
> > > We can and should have both:
> > > 1) API/terminal commands for 'advanced users' and
> > > 2) a simple GUI for normal users who just want to use a PC that protects 
> > > their privacy somewhat better than their current Windows 10 Laptop.
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Am 05.08.2017 5:02 nachm. schrieb "cooloutac" :
> > > 
> > > 
> > > The forever problem of linux,  is the self fulfilling prophecies from 
> > > people who want to feel superior over others. 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Disagree, I think that those people are just faster using the terminal.
> > > And those users are technically skilled and have at least basic knowledge 
> > > about an operating system.
> > > 
> > > 
> > > I agree with cooloutac that Qubes has a benefit if it can be used for 
> > > regular tasks without touching the terminal.
> > > Even when using Windows lots of people use Laptops that have been setup 
> > > by experienced users and then handover to them.
> > > They don't bother with tweaking the system, so simplifying the use of 
> > > Qubes would help to get those users on board.
> > > 
> > > 
> > > BUT:
> > > Important point is that additional security/privacy has most time a price 
> > > that it add a small layer of complexity/less usability for the user.
> > > But Qubes is doing a great job to reduce this overhead.
> > > 
> > > 
> > > As far as I have understand the Qubes team statement, it seems that the 
> > > concentrate more on the Qubes Core stuff and having the API/Terminal 
> > > commands, someone can still write a GUI for Qubes like Qubes Manager.
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Honestly I don't understand why it is that hard to Port Qubes Manager 
> > > over to Qubes 4, so that the user can choose:
> > > 
> > > 
> > > - terminal 
> > > - old Qubes manager with maybe a reduced feature set
> > > - new Qubes widgets
> > > - ... ?
> > > 
> > > 
> > > This topic reminds me about the vi vs. emacs discussions. What the heck? 
> > > I use both ;-)
> > > Or the new "Ribbon Bar" from Microsoft which was also not that accepted 
> > > in the beginning.
> > > 
> > > 
> > > - PhR
> > 
> > there is no versus anything, noone is asking to get rid of the terminal?
> > 
> > This is nothing like vi vs emac discussions.   what?
> 
> hmm, I think he was referring to the earlier posts far up above, and not you 
> specifically. 
> But he makes a good point in that matter, both are important if we want to 
> find motivation and resources to make systems that not only reach the 
> advanced users, but also reaching the everyday users.
> One cannot afford not to take the other seriously, both need each others in 
> modern PC systems, especially if we want to survive the next big thing, the 
> next platform coming after smartphones, which is partially already happening 
> right now. There won't be a laptop, desktop or tablet for Linux to live on, 
> if we don't take emerging technologies seriously. The time to stand together 
> is now, and making whole systems that take in both the advanced and everyday 
> users, would be a game changer.

By not taking secure boot seriously you are creating that self fulfilling 
prophecy.

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Re: [qubes-users] Re: Qubes OS 4.0 first release candidate (rc1) has been released!

2017-08-05 Thread yuraeitha
On Saturday, August 5, 2017 at 3:50:18 PM UTC, cooloutac wrote:
> On Saturday, August 5, 2017 at 11:31:27 AM UTC-4, PR wrote:
> > Hello,
> > 
> > 
> > I think it makes sense to concentrate more on what we (different user 
> > types/groups) would like to see, instead of having some kind of 'flame war' 
> > GUI vs. Terminal.
> > 
> > 
> > The good thing was always that you can built very complicated workflows 
> > using  the terminal/bash scrips make life easier and that you can have a 
> > GUI for 80% of the standard tasks for "normal users", which are more 
> > interested in using their computer as a tool instead of tweaking around.
> > 
> > 
> > We can and should have both:
> > 1) API/terminal commands for 'advanced users' and
> > 2) a simple GUI for normal users who just want to use a PC that protects 
> > their privacy somewhat better than their current Windows 10 Laptop.
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Am 05.08.2017 5:02 nachm. schrieb "cooloutac" :
> > 
> > 
> > The forever problem of linux,  is the self fulfilling prophecies from 
> > people who want to feel superior over others. 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Disagree, I think that those people are just faster using the terminal.
> > And those users are technically skilled and have at least basic knowledge 
> > about an operating system.
> > 
> > 
> > I agree with cooloutac that Qubes has a benefit if it can be used for 
> > regular tasks without touching the terminal.
> > Even when using Windows lots of people use Laptops that have been setup by 
> > experienced users and then handover to them.
> > They don't bother with tweaking the system, so simplifying the use of Qubes 
> > would help to get those users on board.
> > 
> > 
> > BUT:
> > Important point is that additional security/privacy has most time a price 
> > that it add a small layer of complexity/less usability for the user.
> > But Qubes is doing a great job to reduce this overhead.
> > 
> > 
> > As far as I have understand the Qubes team statement, it seems that the 
> > concentrate more on the Qubes Core stuff and having the API/Terminal 
> > commands, someone can still write a GUI for Qubes like Qubes Manager.
> > 
> > 
> > Honestly I don't understand why it is that hard to Port Qubes Manager over 
> > to Qubes 4, so that the user can choose:
> > 
> > 
> > - terminal 
> > - old Qubes manager with maybe a reduced feature set
> > - new Qubes widgets
> > - ... ?
> > 
> > 
> > This topic reminds me about the vi vs. emacs discussions. What the heck? I 
> > use both ;-)
> > Or the new "Ribbon Bar" from Microsoft which was also not that accepted in 
> > the beginning.
> > 
> > 
> > - PhR
> 
> there is no versus anything, noone is asking to get rid of the terminal?
> 
> This is nothing like vi vs emac discussions.   what?

hmm, I think he was referring to the earlier posts far up above, and not you 
specifically. 
But he makes a good point in that matter, both are important if we want to find 
motivation and resources to make systems that not only reach the advanced 
users, but also reaching the everyday users.
One cannot afford not to take the other seriously, both need each others in 
modern PC systems, especially if we want to survive the next big thing, the 
next platform coming after smartphones, which is partially already happening 
right now. There won't be a laptop, desktop or tablet for Linux to live on, if 
we don't take emerging technologies seriously. The time to stand together is 
now, and making whole systems that take in both the advanced and everyday 
users, would be a game changer.

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Re: [qubes-users] Re: Qubes OS 4.0 first release candidate (rc1) has been released!

2017-08-05 Thread cooloutac
On Saturday, August 5, 2017 at 11:34:32 AM UTC-4, yura...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Saturday, August 5, 2017 at 3:26:05 PM UTC, cooloutac wrote:
> > I'll be disappointed but I'm not going to be mad at them for trying to get 
> > paid, they deserve it. 
> > 
> > But I also wouldn't mind if they turned me into a money asset like windows 
> > so they can keep designing it for home users...lol
> > 
> > I look at things differently.  You are referring to linux architecture and 
> > developers,  while I'm referring to the majority of its users and community 
> > members, as the Product.
> 
> Alright, I respect that, we see some things differently. But the discussion 
> is good, it does not have to come down to agreeing in the end. 
> 
> I don't like customers being turned into assets though. The way I see it, it 
> essentially make people "not people" anymore, customer service is out of the 
> window, it's all about cheating and manipulating people into making the best 
> use of them, rather than making a fair trade between a company and a 
> customer. So I kind of black out when I see business models that turn people 
> into assets, I really, really don't like that approach.
> 
> But I do really agree that I wouldn't mind Qubes taking a fee, ask for more 
> donations, or focus partly or entirely on business users. They do a lot of 
> hard work, and regardless of the target group, the change will be for the 
> better of humanity. Perhaps it's asking too much for Qubes to focus on both 
> companies and end-users at the same time, nontheless, I do hope they can 
> manage to do that.
> 
> It's obvious they had their hands full on Qubes 4 too, so it might just be 
> that and we're reading too much into the issue here at hand. But lets see, 
> with time comes answers. I just hope it wiill be in good time rather the long 
> wait.

You are going to be someones asset or product as part of nature,  whether you 
know it or not.

The ends justify the means to me. Especially if it means being able to use 
Qubes or not.   

I also think its silly to not support secure boot, simply because the idea was 
created by Microsoft.   FSF/Richard Stallman supporters who are against secure 
boot,  is like Bernie supporters not voting for hillary.  Seems more spiteful 
then practical. 

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Re: [qubes-users] Re: Qubes OS 4.0 first release candidate (rc1) has been released!

2017-08-05 Thread cooloutac
On Saturday, August 5, 2017 at 11:31:27 AM UTC-4, PR wrote:
> Hello,
> 
> 
> I think it makes sense to concentrate more on what we (different user 
> types/groups) would like to see, instead of having some kind of 'flame war' 
> GUI vs. Terminal.
> 
> 
> The good thing was always that you can built very complicated workflows using 
>  the terminal/bash scrips make life easier and that you can have a GUI for 
> 80% of the standard tasks for "normal users", which are more interested in 
> using their computer as a tool instead of tweaking around.
> 
> 
> We can and should have both:
> 1) API/terminal commands for 'advanced users' and
> 2) a simple GUI for normal users who just want to use a PC that protects 
> their privacy somewhat better than their current Windows 10 Laptop.
> 
> 
> 
> Am 05.08.2017 5:02 nachm. schrieb "cooloutac" :
> 
> 
> The forever problem of linux,  is the self fulfilling prophecies from people 
> who want to feel superior over others. 
> 
> 
> 
> Disagree, I think that those people are just faster using the terminal.
> And those users are technically skilled and have at least basic knowledge 
> about an operating system.
> 
> 
> I agree with cooloutac that Qubes has a benefit if it can be used for regular 
> tasks without touching the terminal.
> Even when using Windows lots of people use Laptops that have been setup by 
> experienced users and then handover to them.
> They don't bother with tweaking the system, so simplifying the use of Qubes 
> would help to get those users on board.
> 
> 
> BUT:
> Important point is that additional security/privacy has most time a price 
> that it add a small layer of complexity/less usability for the user.
> But Qubes is doing a great job to reduce this overhead.
> 
> 
> As far as I have understand the Qubes team statement, it seems that the 
> concentrate more on the Qubes Core stuff and having the API/Terminal 
> commands, someone can still write a GUI for Qubes like Qubes Manager.
> 
> 
> Honestly I don't understand why it is that hard to Port Qubes Manager over to 
> Qubes 4, so that the user can choose:
> 
> 
> - terminal 
> - old Qubes manager with maybe a reduced feature set
> - new Qubes widgets
> - ... ?
> 
> 
> This topic reminds me about the vi vs. emacs discussions. What the heck? I 
> use both ;-)
> Or the new "Ribbon Bar" from Microsoft which was also not that accepted in 
> the beginning.
> 
> 
> - PhR

there is no versus anything, noone is asking to get rid of the terminal?

This is nothing like vi vs emac discussions.   what?

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Re: [qubes-users] Re: Qubes OS 4.0 first release candidate (rc1) has been released!

2017-08-05 Thread yuraeitha
On Saturday, August 5, 2017 at 3:31:27 PM UTC, PR wrote:
> Hello,
> 
> 
> I think it makes sense to concentrate more on what we (different user 
> types/groups) would like to see, instead of having some kind of 'flame war' 
> GUI vs. Terminal.
> 
> 
> The good thing was always that you can built very complicated workflows using 
>  the terminal/bash scrips make life easier and that you can have a GUI for 
> 80% of the standard tasks for "normal users", which are more interested in 
> using their computer as a tool instead of tweaking around.
> 
> 
> We can and should have both:
> 1) API/terminal commands for 'advanced users' and
> 2) a simple GUI for normal users who just want to use a PC that protects 
> their privacy somewhat better than their current Windows 10 Laptop.
> 
> 
> 
> Am 05.08.2017 5:02 nachm. schrieb "cooloutac" :
> 
> 
> The forever problem of linux,  is the self fulfilling prophecies from people 
> who want to feel superior over others. 
> 
> 
> 
> Disagree, I think that those people are just faster using the terminal.
> And those users are technically skilled and have at least basic knowledge 
> about an operating system.
> 
> 
> I agree with cooloutac that Qubes has a benefit if it can be used for regular 
> tasks without touching the terminal.
> Even when using Windows lots of people use Laptops that have been setup by 
> experienced users and then handover to them.
> They don't bother with tweaking the system, so simplifying the use of Qubes 
> would help to get those users on board.
> 
> 
> BUT:
> Important point is that additional security/privacy has most time a price 
> that it add a small layer of complexity/less usability for the user.
> But Qubes is doing a great job to reduce this overhead.
> 
> 
> As far as I have understand the Qubes team statement, it seems that the 
> concentrate more on the Qubes Core stuff and having the API/Terminal 
> commands, someone can still write a GUI for Qubes like Qubes Manager.
> 
> 
> Honestly I don't understand why it is that hard to Port Qubes Manager over to 
> Qubes 4, so that the user can choose:
> 
> 
> - terminal 
> - old Qubes manager with maybe a reduced feature set
> - new Qubes widgets
> - ... ?
> 
> 
> This topic reminds me about the vi vs. emacs discussions. What the heck? I 
> use both ;-)
> Or the new "Ribbon Bar" from Microsoft which was also not that accepted in 
> the beginning.
> 
> 
> - PhR

Fully agree, and you make a good point too with the Qubes team having said they 
will focus on the core of Qubes. 
Perhaps the issue here is rather that Qubes seems too closed off and too 
tightly controlled, that no new groups arise to team up with Qubes?

Also most of all, don't want to be too harsh on the Qubes team here, they're 
doing an amazing job. It's just the limbo of lack of communication that is a 
bit iffy, if one may call it that.

Perhaps a professional Strategy Mission/Vision page on the Qubes website would 
help creating clarity rather than having to dig through thousands of forum and 
mail posts?

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Re: [qubes-users] Re: Qubes OS 4.0 first release candidate (rc1) has been released!

2017-08-05 Thread yuraeitha
On Saturday, August 5, 2017 at 3:26:05 PM UTC, cooloutac wrote:
> I'll be disappointed but I'm not going to be mad at them for trying to get 
> paid, they deserve it. 
> 
> But I also wouldn't mind if they turned me into a money asset like windows so 
> they can keep designing it for home users...lol
> 
> I look at things differently.  You are referring to linux architecture and 
> developers,  while I'm referring to the majority of its users and community 
> members, as the Product.

Alright, I respect that, we see some things differently. But the discussion is 
good, it does not have to come down to agreeing in the end. 

I don't like customers being turned into assets though. The way I see it, it 
essentially make people "not people" anymore, customer service is out of the 
window, it's all about cheating and manipulating people into making the best 
use of them, rather than making a fair trade between a company and a customer. 
So I kind of black out when I see business models that turn people into assets, 
I really, really don't like that approach.

But I do really agree that I wouldn't mind Qubes taking a fee, ask for more 
donations, or focus partly or entirely on business users. They do a lot of hard 
work, and regardless of the target group, the change will be for the better of 
humanity. Perhaps it's asking too much for Qubes to focus on both companies and 
end-users at the same time, nontheless, I do hope they can manage to do that.

It's obvious they had their hands full on Qubes 4 too, so it might just be that 
and we're reading too much into the issue here at hand. But lets see, with time 
comes answers. I just hope it wiill be in good time rather the long wait.

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Re: [qubes-users] Re: Qubes OS 4.0 first release candidate (rc1) has been released!

2017-08-05 Thread 'P R' via qubes-users
Hello,

I think it makes sense to concentrate more on what we (different user
types/groups) would like to see, instead of having some kind of 'flame war'
GUI vs. Terminal.

The good thing was always that you can built very complicated workflows
using  the terminal/bash scrips make life easier and that you can have a
GUI for 80% of the standard tasks for "normal users", which are more
interested in using their computer as a tool instead of tweaking around.

We can and should have both:
1) API/terminal commands for 'advanced users' and
2) a simple GUI for normal users who just want to use a PC that protects
their privacy somewhat better than their current Windows 10 Laptop.


Am 05.08.2017 5:02 nachm. schrieb "cooloutac" :

The forever problem of linux,  is the self fulfilling prophecies from
people who want to feel superior over others.


Disagree, I think that those people are just faster using the terminal.
And those users are technically skilled and have at least basic knowledge
about an operating system.

I agree with cooloutac that Qubes has a benefit if it can be used for
regular tasks without touching the terminal.
Even when using Windows lots of people use Laptops that have been setup by
experienced users and then handover to them.
They don't bother with tweaking the system, so simplifying the use of Qubes
would help to get those users on board.

BUT:
Important point is that additional security/privacy has most time a price
that it add a small layer of complexity/less usability for the user.
But Qubes is doing a great job to reduce this overhead.

As far as I have understand the Qubes team statement, it seems that the
concentrate more on the Qubes Core stuff and having the API/Terminal
commands, someone can still write a GUI for Qubes like Qubes Manager.

Honestly I don't understand why it is that hard to Port Qubes Manager over
to Qubes 4, so that the user can choose:

- terminal
- old Qubes manager with maybe a reduced feature set
- new Qubes widgets
- ... ?

This topic reminds me about the vi vs. emacs discussions. What the heck? I
use both ;-)
Or the new "Ribbon Bar" from Microsoft which was also not that accepted in
the beginning.

- PhR

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Re: [qubes-users] Re: Qubes OS 4.0 first release candidate (rc1) has been released!

2017-08-05 Thread cooloutac
I'll be disappointed but I'm not going to be mad at them for trying to get 
paid, they deserve it. 

But I also wouldn't mind if they turned me into a money asset like windows so 
they can keep designing it for home users...lol

I look at things differently.  You are referring to linux architecture and 
developers,  while I'm referring to the majority of its users and community 
members, as the Product.

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Re: [qubes-users] Re: Qubes OS 4.0 first release candidate (rc1) has been released!

2017-08-05 Thread yuraeitha
On Saturday, August 5, 2017 at 3:02:53 PM UTC, cooloutac wrote:
> On Saturday, August 5, 2017 at 10:48:22 AM UTC-4, yura...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Saturday, August 5, 2017 at 2:34:53 PM UTC, cooloutac wrote:
> > > On Wednesday, August 2, 2017 at 11:43:34 PM UTC-4, Francesco wrote:
> > > > On Wed, Aug 2, 2017 at 9:47 PM, Eva Star  wrote:
> > > > -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> > > > 
> > > > Hash: SHA256
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > On 08/02/2017 03:04 AM, cooloutac wrote:
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > > oh ok I see,  so a taskbar widget or something to replace the
> > > > 
> > > > > manager.  I thought they lost their minds for a second. My
> > > > 
> > > > > immediate thought was what about attaching drives, and seeing if
> > > > 
> > > > > updates available?  Joanna addressed all my concerns but I'm gonna
> > > > 
> > > > > have to wait and see what happens with this.   Hopefully it doesn't
> > > > 
> > > > > turn out to be more confusing then the manager.
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > It is a miscalculation. How about the words "we must make Qubes user
> > > > 
> > > > friendly for all users non IT advanced" and release Qubes without
> > > > 
> > > > manager? :(
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > Maybe, widgets is not a good idea, but Qubes Manager is one of the
> > > > 
> > > > important part that make Qubes useful to manage all vms with mouse.
> > > > 
> > > > Some UX to old one QM + start menu links to right mouse action and it
> > > > 
> > > > will be amazing.
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > Well, I never use the start menu on the left lower side of the screen 
> > > > because it is too complicated, too many items and needs customization 
> > > > that I am too lazy to do or have better things to do. I do everything 
> > > > with the Qubes Manager that is so well organized and compact. I am 
> > > > afraid that the new arrangement may make things more difficult to find 
> > > > for a new user since items are spread over different buttons/places.   
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > I would suggest to mitigate this risk putting links to the other places 
> > > > on the widget/window that opens when you click on one of them. You can 
> > > > separate things, but better put links to find them again.
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > Also I imagine that somewhere I'll find the list of VMs. There please 
> > > > 1. keep the "run command in VM" choice and 
> > > > 2. add something new: the chance to show only preferred VM
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > The first is very important to avoid using the start button.
> > > > 
> > > > The second is important to simplify the view and speed up the most 
> > > > common routines
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > Cooloutac made me smile telling of his mother and family using Qubes.  
> > > > I had my wife using Qubes for some years, but recently she rised up 
> > > > against Qubes telling that it is too complicated for her to be able to 
> > > > master it without help. She wanted a Mac.  Really it is impossible to 
> > > > maintain Qubes without the CLI and this makes it beyond limits for most 
> > > > people.  But perhaps if we are able to find a stable architecture and 
> > > > then Qubes matures enough, this may change. But we are not there yet.
> > > > 
> > > > Best
> > > > 
> > > > Fran
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > - --
> > > > 
> > > > Regards
> > > > 
> > > > -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
> > > > 
> > > > Version: GnuPG v2
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > iQIcBAEBCAAGBQJZgnLPAAoJEGSin3PC/C0AyIUP/AuxhZfxWdFGYzLzUQX2fzn/
> > > > 
> > > > 5ajxXWVNtTXWgpmUqzu1Ov/HMp9W7hFerw4GXwMotXDDXrIbf+8WEayS+q+SdXBn
> > > > 
> > > > qanSZ0EmBkwoFVptP+1TNQqQIcRLEF3gN3o3vq8tGaq2dUZ4HW9hSXBUZ71WcjXR
> > > > 
> > > > g95QUBBpl05/l//Vozu0GEUxpLBrzAhji95awd39vn/2BRKr6q4pGlNsi6BdqgCJ
> > > > 
> > > > WzmeaSTrYjNkBHypYjgpCXT6MQLRXEmlqX8OVxI5jopP7tYNZh5+bKp+1/U9vccJ
> > > > 
> > > > q4ddOTDlaCwY5bmQgWl05MNI4+OWr8xBlrfVCMmfxVO5dOBvoCjCrMTEySh3sPL7
> > > > 
> > > > gGMcT1349yiIllPPP0vhdm+0d0n0hWLR160WExQoF+oUgCbXFnf5sBT1bjWxXBOl
> > > > 
> > > > EEwg6IMElKgjI0jG0izCX7M3rn5m1H95KOGR2nn+IyJIzgJwk4+4YTWgFFfnwQyX
> > > > 
> > > > k9EcN8vffpokLz9I3u2qZSdDDYz71KVRAHMxL3h2WxEro7RVRtOcbpXO3ctcsdV0
> > > > 
> > > > QZfEwW2SAeZz798InY/Qb+7NmtpSsZUl3rCYUY7i5mubkGgnbtklCSUEzxZZ+4hx
> > > > 
> > > > SD6nV8tTjrNMxSNEytvIYd6wJZYrHkvA7Kf7KtNtxa7+mMr89LzL5qLHk/W15R14
> > > > 
> > > > iXk4BnVvkdfLntZ+Pa84
> > > > 
> > > > =ILr0
> > > > 
> > > > -END PGP SIGNATURE-
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > --
> > > > 
> > > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google 
> > > > Groups "qubes-users" group.
> > > > 
> > > > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send 
> > > > an email to qubes-users...@googlegroups.com.
> > > > 
> > > > To post to this group, send email to qubes...@googlegroups.com.
> > > > 
> > > > To view this discussion on the web visit 
> > > > 

Re: [qubes-users] Re: Qubes OS 4.0 first release candidate (rc1) has been released!

2017-08-05 Thread cooloutac
I remember when the tor dev Isis on irc, when I asked if anyone used Qubes, 
told me she was going to try it out but thought it was too hard to use. She 
started asking me how easy it was to install and use.   I was in total shock!  
This someone who is a genius compared to me and she thought Qubes would be too 
hard for her to use?  Then I realized its because thats what most people on irc 
thought.   And thats because of that age old linux problem of people wanting to 
feel special for using it.

ANY DUMMY CAN USE QUBES  Any old dumb computer illiterate windows user can 
learn how to use Qubes in 10 minutes.  If you think I am exaggerating you 
really need to come down to earth, you're not special.

The hardrd part of Qubes is forcing yourself to compartmentalize and thinking 
of the system in that way. Some people can't do it.   But that has nothing to 
do with a technical learning curve, which is no different then windows.  But it 
seems people in this community want to change that, probably for the reasons I 
stated in my previous post.

Although itl isn't the typical linux type, and from Joanna's github post it 
seems like its more of her thinking the Qubes-manager is ugly and bulky.  So 
i'm crossing my fingers we don't lose any UI functionality.   

-- 
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"qubes-users" group.
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For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.


Re: [qubes-users] Re: Qubes OS 4.0 first release candidate (rc1) has been released!

2017-08-05 Thread cooloutac
On Saturday, August 5, 2017 at 10:48:22 AM UTC-4, yura...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Saturday, August 5, 2017 at 2:34:53 PM UTC, cooloutac wrote:
> > On Wednesday, August 2, 2017 at 11:43:34 PM UTC-4, Francesco wrote:
> > > On Wed, Aug 2, 2017 at 9:47 PM, Eva Star  wrote:
> > > -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> > > 
> > > Hash: SHA256
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > On 08/02/2017 03:04 AM, cooloutac wrote:
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > > oh ok I see,  so a taskbar widget or something to replace the
> > > 
> > > > manager.  I thought they lost their minds for a second. My
> > > 
> > > > immediate thought was what about attaching drives, and seeing if
> > > 
> > > > updates available?  Joanna addressed all my concerns but I'm gonna
> > > 
> > > > have to wait and see what happens with this.   Hopefully it doesn't
> > > 
> > > > turn out to be more confusing then the manager.
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > It is a miscalculation. How about the words "we must make Qubes user
> > > 
> > > friendly for all users non IT advanced" and release Qubes without
> > > 
> > > manager? :(
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Maybe, widgets is not a good idea, but Qubes Manager is one of the
> > > 
> > > important part that make Qubes useful to manage all vms with mouse.
> > > 
> > > Some UX to old one QM + start menu links to right mouse action and it
> > > 
> > > will be amazing.
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Well, I never use the start menu on the left lower side of the screen 
> > > because it is too complicated, too many items and needs customization 
> > > that I am too lazy to do or have better things to do. I do everything 
> > > with the Qubes Manager that is so well organized and compact. I am afraid 
> > > that the new arrangement may make things more difficult to find for a new 
> > > user since items are spread over different buttons/places.   
> > > 
> > > 
> > > I would suggest to mitigate this risk putting links to the other places 
> > > on the widget/window that opens when you click on one of them. You can 
> > > separate things, but better put links to find them again.
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Also I imagine that somewhere I'll find the list of VMs. There please 
> > > 1. keep the "run command in VM" choice and 
> > > 2. add something new: the chance to show only preferred VM
> > > 
> > > 
> > > The first is very important to avoid using the start button.
> > > 
> > > The second is important to simplify the view and speed up the most common 
> > > routines
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Cooloutac made me smile telling of his mother and family using Qubes.  I 
> > > had my wife using Qubes for some years, but recently she rised up against 
> > > Qubes telling that it is too complicated for her to be able to master it 
> > > without help. She wanted a Mac.  Really it is impossible to maintain 
> > > Qubes without the CLI and this makes it beyond limits for most people.  
> > > But perhaps if we are able to find a stable architecture and then Qubes 
> > > matures enough, this may change. But we are not there yet.
> > > 
> > > Best
> > > 
> > > Fran
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > - --
> > > 
> > > Regards
> > > 
> > > -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
> > > 
> > > Version: GnuPG v2
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > iQIcBAEBCAAGBQJZgnLPAAoJEGSin3PC/C0AyIUP/AuxhZfxWdFGYzLzUQX2fzn/
> > > 
> > > 5ajxXWVNtTXWgpmUqzu1Ov/HMp9W7hFerw4GXwMotXDDXrIbf+8WEayS+q+SdXBn
> > > 
> > > qanSZ0EmBkwoFVptP+1TNQqQIcRLEF3gN3o3vq8tGaq2dUZ4HW9hSXBUZ71WcjXR
> > > 
> > > g95QUBBpl05/l//Vozu0GEUxpLBrzAhji95awd39vn/2BRKr6q4pGlNsi6BdqgCJ
> > > 
> > > WzmeaSTrYjNkBHypYjgpCXT6MQLRXEmlqX8OVxI5jopP7tYNZh5+bKp+1/U9vccJ
> > > 
> > > q4ddOTDlaCwY5bmQgWl05MNI4+OWr8xBlrfVCMmfxVO5dOBvoCjCrMTEySh3sPL7
> > > 
> > > gGMcT1349yiIllPPP0vhdm+0d0n0hWLR160WExQoF+oUgCbXFnf5sBT1bjWxXBOl
> > > 
> > > EEwg6IMElKgjI0jG0izCX7M3rn5m1H95KOGR2nn+IyJIzgJwk4+4YTWgFFfnwQyX
> > > 
> > > k9EcN8vffpokLz9I3u2qZSdDDYz71KVRAHMxL3h2WxEro7RVRtOcbpXO3ctcsdV0
> > > 
> > > QZfEwW2SAeZz798InY/Qb+7NmtpSsZUl3rCYUY7i5mubkGgnbtklCSUEzxZZ+4hx
> > > 
> > > SD6nV8tTjrNMxSNEytvIYd6wJZYrHkvA7Kf7KtNtxa7+mMr89LzL5qLHk/W15R14
> > > 
> > > iXk4BnVvkdfLntZ+Pa84
> > > 
> > > =ILr0
> > > 
> > > -END PGP SIGNATURE-
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > --
> > > 
> > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
> > > "qubes-users" group.
> > > 
> > > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
> > > email to qubes-users...@googlegroups.com.
> > > 
> > > To post to this group, send email to qubes...@googlegroups.com.
> > > 
> > > To view this discussion on the web visit 
> > > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/qubes-users/7a4c1304-cbcb-e447-97dc-9db848eae1fd%40openmailbox.org.
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
> > 
> > I'm being honest man.  The only time we ever have to use the cli,  is if we 
> > forget to restart the sys-usb and shut it down by accident.   She has the 
> > command 

Re: [qubes-users] Re: Qubes OS 4.0 first release candidate (rc1) has been released!

2017-08-05 Thread yuraeitha
On Saturday, August 5, 2017 at 2:34:53 PM UTC, cooloutac wrote:
> On Wednesday, August 2, 2017 at 11:43:34 PM UTC-4, Francesco wrote:
> > On Wed, Aug 2, 2017 at 9:47 PM, Eva Star  wrote:
> > -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> > 
> > Hash: SHA256
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > On 08/02/2017 03:04 AM, cooloutac wrote:
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > > oh ok I see,  so a taskbar widget or something to replace the
> > 
> > > manager.  I thought they lost their minds for a second. My
> > 
> > > immediate thought was what about attaching drives, and seeing if
> > 
> > > updates available?  Joanna addressed all my concerns but I'm gonna
> > 
> > > have to wait and see what happens with this.   Hopefully it doesn't
> > 
> > > turn out to be more confusing then the manager.
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > It is a miscalculation. How about the words "we must make Qubes user
> > 
> > friendly for all users non IT advanced" and release Qubes without
> > 
> > manager? :(
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Maybe, widgets is not a good idea, but Qubes Manager is one of the
> > 
> > important part that make Qubes useful to manage all vms with mouse.
> > 
> > Some UX to old one QM + start menu links to right mouse action and it
> > 
> > will be amazing.
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Well, I never use the start menu on the left lower side of the screen 
> > because it is too complicated, too many items and needs customization that 
> > I am too lazy to do or have better things to do. I do everything with the 
> > Qubes Manager that is so well organized and compact. I am afraid that the 
> > new arrangement may make things more difficult to find for a new user since 
> > items are spread over different buttons/places.   
> > 
> > 
> > I would suggest to mitigate this risk putting links to the other places on 
> > the widget/window that opens when you click on one of them. You can 
> > separate things, but better put links to find them again.
> > 
> > 
> > Also I imagine that somewhere I'll find the list of VMs. There please 
> > 1. keep the "run command in VM" choice and 
> > 2. add something new: the chance to show only preferred VM
> > 
> > 
> > The first is very important to avoid using the start button.
> > 
> > The second is important to simplify the view and speed up the most common 
> > routines
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Cooloutac made me smile telling of his mother and family using Qubes.  I 
> > had my wife using Qubes for some years, but recently she rised up against 
> > Qubes telling that it is too complicated for her to be able to master it 
> > without help. She wanted a Mac.  Really it is impossible to maintain Qubes 
> > without the CLI and this makes it beyond limits for most people.  But 
> > perhaps if we are able to find a stable architecture and then Qubes matures 
> > enough, this may change. But we are not there yet.
> > 
> > Best
> > 
> > Fran
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > - --
> > 
> > Regards
> > 
> > -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
> > 
> > Version: GnuPG v2
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > iQIcBAEBCAAGBQJZgnLPAAoJEGSin3PC/C0AyIUP/AuxhZfxWdFGYzLzUQX2fzn/
> > 
> > 5ajxXWVNtTXWgpmUqzu1Ov/HMp9W7hFerw4GXwMotXDDXrIbf+8WEayS+q+SdXBn
> > 
> > qanSZ0EmBkwoFVptP+1TNQqQIcRLEF3gN3o3vq8tGaq2dUZ4HW9hSXBUZ71WcjXR
> > 
> > g95QUBBpl05/l//Vozu0GEUxpLBrzAhji95awd39vn/2BRKr6q4pGlNsi6BdqgCJ
> > 
> > WzmeaSTrYjNkBHypYjgpCXT6MQLRXEmlqX8OVxI5jopP7tYNZh5+bKp+1/U9vccJ
> > 
> > q4ddOTDlaCwY5bmQgWl05MNI4+OWr8xBlrfVCMmfxVO5dOBvoCjCrMTEySh3sPL7
> > 
> > gGMcT1349yiIllPPP0vhdm+0d0n0hWLR160WExQoF+oUgCbXFnf5sBT1bjWxXBOl
> > 
> > EEwg6IMElKgjI0jG0izCX7M3rn5m1H95KOGR2nn+IyJIzgJwk4+4YTWgFFfnwQyX
> > 
> > k9EcN8vffpokLz9I3u2qZSdDDYz71KVRAHMxL3h2WxEro7RVRtOcbpXO3ctcsdV0
> > 
> > QZfEwW2SAeZz798InY/Qb+7NmtpSsZUl3rCYUY7i5mubkGgnbtklCSUEzxZZ+4hx
> > 
> > SD6nV8tTjrNMxSNEytvIYd6wJZYrHkvA7Kf7KtNtxa7+mMr89LzL5qLHk/W15R14
> > 
> > iXk4BnVvkdfLntZ+Pa84
> > 
> > =ILr0
> > 
> > -END PGP SIGNATURE-
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > --
> > 
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
> > "qubes-users" group.
> > 
> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
> > email to qubes-users...@googlegroups.com.
> > 
> > To post to this group, send email to qubes...@googlegroups.com.
> > 
> > To view this discussion on the web visit 
> > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/qubes-users/7a4c1304-cbcb-e447-97dc-9db848eae1fd%40openmailbox.org.
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
> 
> I'm being honest man.  The only time we ever have to use the cli,  is if we 
> forget to restart the sys-usb and shut it down by accident.   She has the 
> command written on the wall to  alt-f2,  xterm,  qvm-start sys-usb.   Only 
> command we ever use on occasion, and thats only cause we using mouse proxy in 
> the sys-usb.

Honest or not, I believe you that this is sufficient for your needs. But keep 
in mind other people use software differently, not everyone use it the same 
way, or have the same needs for that matter. 


Re: [qubes-users] Re: Qubes OS 4.0 first release candidate (rc1) has been released!

2017-08-05 Thread cooloutac
On Friday, August 4, 2017 at 9:25:03 PM UTC-4, Francesco wrote:
> On Thu, Aug 3, 2017 at 12:18 PM, Unman  wrote:
> 
> 
> On Thu, Aug 03, 2017 at 12:43:31AM -0300, Franz wrote:
> 
> > On Wed, Aug 2, 2017 at 9:47 PM, Eva Star  wrote:
> 
> >
> 
> > > -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> 
> > > Hash: SHA256
> 
> > >
> 
> > > On 08/02/2017 03:04 AM, cooloutac wrote:
> 
> > >
> 
> > > > oh ok I see,  so a taskbar widget or something to replace the
> 
> > > > manager.  I thought they lost their minds for a second. My
> 
> > > > immediate thought was what about attaching drives, and seeing if
> 
> > > > updates available?  Joanna addressed all my concerns but I'm gonna
> 
> > > > have to wait and see what happens with this.   Hopefully it doesn't
> 
> > > > turn out to be more confusing then the manager.
> 
> > >
> 
> > > It is a miscalculation. How about the words "we must make Qubes user
> 
> > > friendly for all users non IT advanced" and release Qubes without
> 
> > > manager? :(
> 
> > >
> 
> > > Maybe, widgets is not a good idea, but Qubes Manager is one of the
> 
> > > important part that make Qubes useful to manage all vms with mouse.
> 
> > > Some UX to old one QM + start menu links to right mouse action and it
> 
> > > will be amazing.
> 
> > >
> 
> > >
> 
> > Well, I never use the start menu on the left lower side of the screen
> 
> > because it is too complicated, too many items and needs customization that
> 
> > I am too lazy to do or have better things to do. I do everything with the
> 
> > Qubes Manager that is so well organized and compact. I am afraid that the
> 
> > new arrangement may make things more difficult to find for a new user since
> 
> > items are spread over different buttons/places.
> 
> >
> 
> > I would suggest to mitigate this risk putting links to the other places on
> 
> > the widget/window that opens when you click on one of them. You can
> 
> > separate things, but better put links to find them again.
> 
> >
> 
> > Also I imagine that somewhere I'll find the list of VMs. There please
> 
> > 1. keep the "run command in VM" choice and
> 
> > 2. add something new: the chance to show only preferred VM
> 
> >
> 
> > The first is very important to avoid using the start button.
> 
> > The second is important to simplify the view and speed up the most common
> 
> > routines
> 
> >
> 
> > Cooloutac made me smile telling of his mother and family using Qubes.  I
> 
> > had my wife using Qubes for some years, but recently she rised up against
> 
> > Qubes telling that it is too complicated for her to be able to master it
> 
> > without help. She wanted a Mac.  Really it is impossible to maintain Qubes
> 
> > without the CLI and this makes it beyond limits for most people.  But
> 
> > perhaps if we are able to find a stable architecture and then Qubes matures
> 
> > enough, this may change. But we are not there yet.
> 
> > Best
> 
> > Fran
> 
> >
> 
> 
> 
> I completely disagree with you, and I'm with cooloutac on this.
> 
> I have a number of Qubes users who are fine, and NEVER touch the command
> 
> line. (Most of them would go to pieces at the prospect.)
> 
> 
> Sorry, but I do not believe that. How can your users perform the following 
> basic required actions without a CLI:
> 
>  1. verify iso
> 2. put the iso on a usb stick
> 3. print (you need a custom DVM)
> 4. scan 
> 
> 5. update templates after EOL
> 
> 6. update dom0 and templates when the same Manager command does not work for 
> some reason. How many times it happened? 
> 
> 7. solve various issues when something simply does not work as expected, such 
> as the last one with the wrong kernel when you Unman kindly helped me to 
> solve it with the terminal because it did not work with the Manager 
> 
> 
>  Most of them
> 
> rarely touch the Manager.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How can they update templates and dom0 without touching the Manager?
> 
> 
> You users may be able to use Qubes only because you kindly help them with the 
> above and other issues. Nothing wrong with that of course, you are a very 
> nice person, but they are not autonomous. If they have to travel a couple of 
> months and something wrong happens, as with my wife that had wifi dead, then 
> they are unable to solve it. Worse,  NOBODY is able to help because when they 
> see Qubes they declare inability.  In that case I was lucky to be able on the 
> phone to tell her to connect with ethernet and upgrade Fedora 24 to Fedora 25 
> and it fixed it. But it was just luck that it worked and that she was able to 
> correctly do what I told her. What was broken? No idea.
> 
> 
> Without you, coouloutac  or even me, always ready to help, how can a normal 
> person use Qubes without using the CLI. No way. Now Qubes is still a project 
> for geeks. Too many issues. And it is obvious that this state cannot improve 
> until we are obliged to continuously change architecture such as the last one 
> release 4 for the Xen 

Re: [qubes-users] Re: Qubes OS 4.0 first release candidate (rc1) has been released!

2017-08-05 Thread cooloutac
On Wednesday, August 2, 2017 at 11:43:34 PM UTC-4, Francesco wrote:
> On Wed, Aug 2, 2017 at 9:47 PM, Eva Star  wrote:
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> 
> Hash: SHA256
> 
> 
> 
> On 08/02/2017 03:04 AM, cooloutac wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> > oh ok I see,  so a taskbar widget or something to replace the
> 
> > manager.  I thought they lost their minds for a second. My
> 
> > immediate thought was what about attaching drives, and seeing if
> 
> > updates available?  Joanna addressed all my concerns but I'm gonna
> 
> > have to wait and see what happens with this.   Hopefully it doesn't
> 
> > turn out to be more confusing then the manager.
> 
> 
> 
> It is a miscalculation. How about the words "we must make Qubes user
> 
> friendly for all users non IT advanced" and release Qubes without
> 
> manager? :(
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe, widgets is not a good idea, but Qubes Manager is one of the
> 
> important part that make Qubes useful to manage all vms with mouse.
> 
> Some UX to old one QM + start menu links to right mouse action and it
> 
> will be amazing.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well, I never use the start menu on the left lower side of the screen because 
> it is too complicated, too many items and needs customization that I am too 
> lazy to do or have better things to do. I do everything with the Qubes 
> Manager that is so well organized and compact. I am afraid that the new 
> arrangement may make things more difficult to find for a new user since items 
> are spread over different buttons/places.   
> 
> 
> I would suggest to mitigate this risk putting links to the other places on 
> the widget/window that opens when you click on one of them. You can separate 
> things, but better put links to find them again.
> 
> 
> Also I imagine that somewhere I'll find the list of VMs. There please 
> 1. keep the "run command in VM" choice and 
> 2. add something new: the chance to show only preferred VM
> 
> 
> The first is very important to avoid using the start button.
> 
> The second is important to simplify the view and speed up the most common 
> routines
> 
> 
> 
> Cooloutac made me smile telling of his mother and family using Qubes.  I had 
> my wife using Qubes for some years, but recently she rised up against Qubes 
> telling that it is too complicated for her to be able to master it without 
> help. She wanted a Mac.  Really it is impossible to maintain Qubes without 
> the CLI and this makes it beyond limits for most people.  But perhaps if we 
> are able to find a stable architecture and then Qubes matures enough, this 
> may change. But we are not there yet.
> 
> Best
> 
> Fran
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> - --
> 
> Regards
> 
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
> 
> Version: GnuPG v2
> 
> 
> 
> iQIcBAEBCAAGBQJZgnLPAAoJEGSin3PC/C0AyIUP/AuxhZfxWdFGYzLzUQX2fzn/
> 
> 5ajxXWVNtTXWgpmUqzu1Ov/HMp9W7hFerw4GXwMotXDDXrIbf+8WEayS+q+SdXBn
> 
> qanSZ0EmBkwoFVptP+1TNQqQIcRLEF3gN3o3vq8tGaq2dUZ4HW9hSXBUZ71WcjXR
> 
> g95QUBBpl05/l//Vozu0GEUxpLBrzAhji95awd39vn/2BRKr6q4pGlNsi6BdqgCJ
> 
> WzmeaSTrYjNkBHypYjgpCXT6MQLRXEmlqX8OVxI5jopP7tYNZh5+bKp+1/U9vccJ
> 
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> =ILr0
> 
> -END PGP SIGNATURE-
> 
> 
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I'm being honest man.  The only time we ever have to use the cli,  is if we 
forget to restart the sys-usb and shut it down by accident.   She has the 
command written on the wall to  alt-f2,  xterm,  qvm-start sys-usb.   Only 
command we ever use on occasion, and thats only cause we using mouse proxy in 
the sys-usb.

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Re: [qubes-users] Re: Qubes OS 4.0 first release candidate (rc1) has been released!

2017-08-05 Thread cooloutac
On Wednesday, August 2, 2017 at 11:43:34 PM UTC-4, Francesco wrote:
> On Wed, Aug 2, 2017 at 9:47 PM, Eva Star  wrote:
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> 
> Hash: SHA256
> 
> 
> 
> On 08/02/2017 03:04 AM, cooloutac wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> > oh ok I see,  so a taskbar widget or something to replace the
> 
> > manager.  I thought they lost their minds for a second. My
> 
> > immediate thought was what about attaching drives, and seeing if
> 
> > updates available?  Joanna addressed all my concerns but I'm gonna
> 
> > have to wait and see what happens with this.   Hopefully it doesn't
> 
> > turn out to be more confusing then the manager.
> 
> 
> 
> It is a miscalculation. How about the words "we must make Qubes user
> 
> friendly for all users non IT advanced" and release Qubes without
> 
> manager? :(
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe, widgets is not a good idea, but Qubes Manager is one of the
> 
> important part that make Qubes useful to manage all vms with mouse.
> 
> Some UX to old one QM + start menu links to right mouse action and it
> 
> will be amazing.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well, I never use the start menu on the left lower side of the screen because 
> it is too complicated, too many items and needs customization that I am too 
> lazy to do or have better things to do. I do everything with the Qubes 
> Manager that is so well organized and compact. I am afraid that the new 
> arrangement may make things more difficult to find for a new user since items 
> are spread over different buttons/places.   
> 
> 
> I would suggest to mitigate this risk putting links to the other places on 
> the widget/window that opens when you click on one of them. You can separate 
> things, but better put links to find them again.
> 
> 
> Also I imagine that somewhere I'll find the list of VMs. There please 
> 1. keep the "run command in VM" choice and 
> 2. add something new: the chance to show only preferred VM
> 
> 
> The first is very important to avoid using the start button.
> 
> The second is important to simplify the view and speed up the most common 
> routines
> 
> 
> 
> Cooloutac made me smile telling of his mother and family using Qubes.  I had 
> my wife using Qubes for some years, but recently she rised up against Qubes 
> telling that it is too complicated for her to be able to master it without 
> help. She wanted a Mac.  Really it is impossible to maintain Qubes without 
> the CLI and this makes it beyond limits for most people.  But perhaps if we 
> are able to find a stable architecture and then Qubes matures enough, this 
> may change. But we are not there yet.
> 
> Best
> 
> Fran
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> - --
> 
> Regards
> 
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
> 
> Version: GnuPG v2
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> =ILr0
> 
> -END PGP SIGNATURE-
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I always wished the start menu was organized identical to the qubes-manger.  
IMO thats what made it confusing for some.

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Re: [qubes-users] Re: Qubes OS 4.0 first release candidate (rc1) has been released!

2017-08-04 Thread yuraeitha
A worry I've been thinking about regarding the backup feature missing, is that 
it seems like it's intended to be used through the AdminVM over a network. In 
other words, this seems more like a move towards business users, rather than 
the regular every day user that might prefer an external USB drive through a 
GUI window. 

Qubes is moving towards business users, we already know that much. But are the 
regular users getting ignored now as a result? or are both still being seen as 
primary users? 

It's clear that Qubes 4 took a lot of hard work, so perhaps there just wasn't 
enough time to work on everyday touch and feels, like proper GUI and user 
experience.

But the deep worry that Qubes might or might not be giving up on normal users, 
is definitely there for me. I have high hopes for Qubes to change the PC/Mobile 
environment of the future, forcing the hand on any other OS out there. There 
should be no issues to support both users and businesses. 

It's not that I believe this, but the elephant is still in the room. Are users 
getting ignored now? or was it just because Qubes 4 had so much work that there 
was little time left for anything else?

If the latter is indeed the case, what is the next everyday user experience 
development in planning? Gnome 3? Return of GUI tools such as backup? Graphics 
in VM's for high end graphics? Gaming even? I mean, I do believe if these 
mentioned issues were fixed, Qubes could draw in quite a lot of new users. 
Heck many gamers care about privacy and security too, there is a large 
user-base there if you manage to make gaming through virtualization work 
smoothly. 
Think about it, how highly connected gamers are through gaming news etc., if 
gaming worked in Qubes, it'd in my opinion draw a lot of positive attention, 
and a likely substantial Qubes userbase growth. Getting graphics to work in 
Qubes is being seen as a low priority, for the life of me, I cannot see why 
this is the case, with so many potential new Qubes users laying in wait.

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Re: [qubes-users] Re: Qubes OS 4.0 first release candidate (rc1) has been released!

2017-08-04 Thread Franz
On Thu, Aug 3, 2017 at 12:18 PM, Unman  wrote:

> On Thu, Aug 03, 2017 at 12:43:31AM -0300, Franz wrote:
> > On Wed, Aug 2, 2017 at 9:47 PM, Eva Star 
> wrote:
> >
> > > -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> > > Hash: SHA256
> > >
> > > On 08/02/2017 03:04 AM, cooloutac wrote:
> > >
> > > > oh ok I see,  so a taskbar widget or something to replace the
> > > > manager.  I thought they lost their minds for a second. My
> > > > immediate thought was what about attaching drives, and seeing if
> > > > updates available?  Joanna addressed all my concerns but I'm gonna
> > > > have to wait and see what happens with this.   Hopefully it doesn't
> > > > turn out to be more confusing then the manager.
> > >
> > > It is a miscalculation. How about the words "we must make Qubes user
> > > friendly for all users non IT advanced" and release Qubes without
> > > manager? :(
> > >
> > > Maybe, widgets is not a good idea, but Qubes Manager is one of the
> > > important part that make Qubes useful to manage all vms with mouse.
> > > Some UX to old one QM + start menu links to right mouse action and it
> > > will be amazing.
> > >
> > >
> > Well, I never use the start menu on the left lower side of the screen
> > because it is too complicated, too many items and needs customization
> that
> > I am too lazy to do or have better things to do. I do everything with the
> > Qubes Manager that is so well organized and compact. I am afraid that the
> > new arrangement may make things more difficult to find for a new user
> since
> > items are spread over different buttons/places.
> >
> > I would suggest to mitigate this risk putting links to the other places
> on
> > the widget/window that opens when you click on one of them. You can
> > separate things, but better put links to find them again.
> >
> > Also I imagine that somewhere I'll find the list of VMs. There please
> > 1. keep the "run command in VM" choice and
> > 2. add something new: the chance to show only preferred VM
> >
> > The first is very important to avoid using the start button.
> > The second is important to simplify the view and speed up the most common
> > routines
> >
> > Cooloutac made me smile telling of his mother and family using Qubes.  I
> > had my wife using Qubes for some years, but recently she rised up against
> > Qubes telling that it is too complicated for her to be able to master it
> > without help. She wanted a Mac.  Really it is impossible to maintain
> Qubes
> > without the CLI and this makes it beyond limits for most people.  But
> > perhaps if we are able to find a stable architecture and then Qubes
> matures
> > enough, this may change. But we are not there yet.
> > Best
> > Fran
> >
>
> I completely disagree with you, and I'm with cooloutac on this.
> I have a number of Qubes users who are fine, and NEVER touch the command
> line. (Most of them would go to pieces at the prospect.)


Sorry, but I do not believe that. How can your users perform the following
basic required actions without a CLI:
 1. verify iso
2. put the iso on a usb stick
3. print (you need a custom DVM)
4. scan
5. update templates after EOL
6. update dom0 and templates when the same Manager command does not work
for some reason. How many times it happened?
7. solve various issues when something simply does not work as expected,
such as the last one with the wrong kernel when you Unman kindly helped me
to solve it with the terminal because it did not work with the Manager

Most of them
> rarely touch the Manager.
>
>
How can they update templates and dom0 without touching the Manager?

You users may be able to use Qubes only because you kindly help them with
the above and other issues. Nothing wrong with that of course, you are a
very nice person, but they are not autonomous. If they have to travel a
couple of months and something wrong happens, as with my wife that had wifi
dead, then they are unable to solve it. Worse,  NOBODY is able to help
because when they see Qubes they declare inability.  In that case I was
lucky to be able on the phone to tell her to connect with ethernet and
upgrade Fedora 24 to Fedora 25 and it fixed it. But it was just luck that
it worked and that she was able to correctly do what I told her. What was
broken? No idea.

Without you, coouloutac  or even me, always ready to help, how can a normal
person use Qubes without using the CLI. No way. Now Qubes is still a
project for geeks. Too many issues. And it is obvious that this state
cannot improve until we are obliged to continuously change architecture
such as the last one release 4 for the Xen issues. But hopefully this is
the last change we need to do and can concentrate on maturing Qubes into a
more mainstream product.
Best
Fran


I suspect your wife suffered from your (self confessed ) laziness -
> If you spend some time customizing the menu, creating shortcuts, and
> hiding the infrastructure as much as possible, then in my experience,
> 

[qubes-users] Re: Qubes OS 4.0 first release candidate (rc1) has been released!

2017-08-04 Thread yuraeitha
I'm excited about the work you did on Qubes 4, it looks good so far. Can't wait 
to see the final stable version.

Obvious bugs during alpha/beta stages aside, I do feel sorrow for the lack of 
the Qubes VM Manager as well., and some other minor things that may have major 
user impact for some people.

- VM Backup GUI seems missing. Is this perhaps something still being worked on 
and is coming later? Seems really odd that it's missing. I am by no means 
worried about using the terminal, but it's often extra work. Which is really 
bad when it takes away valuable time, especially when on the move and in a 
hurry. It is also a disadvantage for people who are visually stronger to gather 
a mental overview of their system.

- Seems like there is a missing ability to see inactive VM's for the visual 
users (Just like the 3.2 VM Manager can show inactive VM's). This is really 
important for some people, while not important for some others. Albeit, perhaps 
I just missed the feature to turn it on in the widget?

- Not sure of this one, it might just be due to the VM starting bug, but it 
seems like we can't easily have an overview of used memory/drive space for each 
VM anymore? If true, this is a big problem for people on limited hardware 
resources, who need to be mindful of what is currently running in order not to 
spend it all up. For example (A contrast example), I never worry if I use all 
memory, it's essentially almost impossible for me to use it all up inside 
normal use cases. However on my "8GB ram/128GB SDD" laptop/tablet hybrid 
running Qubes, this is a very, very different story altogether.
Devices are only getting smaller, the inability to upgrade drives or memory in 
the near future, seems to make smart software more important than ever before. 
Having good overview of VM resources is imho a really, really good thing.
Especially because not everyone runs around with laptops that have 12-16+ GB 
memory.

- VM colors? It might be my limited knowledge here, but adding extra colors, 
even if just a few, shouldn't take long? 5-10 minutes to add? I might just be 
super naive here. But having said that, even a few extra colors would be really 
nice. Heck, even light and dark color versions, like for example light/dark 
variants of (blue,red,purple,green, etc.).


I did not have much time to look around, so perhaps I just missed some of the 
changes, but this is my first impression nontheless.

Having said that, I'm really, really excited about the increased virtualization 
security and the AdminVM features. Can't say nothing else but that it's an 
amazing job you guys did there (and a lot of hard work too, which we end users 
should appreciate more).

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Re: [qubes-users] Re: Qubes OS 4.0 first release candidate (rc1) has been released!

2017-08-02 Thread Franz
On Wed, Aug 2, 2017 at 9:47 PM, Eva Star  wrote:

> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> Hash: SHA256
>
> On 08/02/2017 03:04 AM, cooloutac wrote:
>
> > oh ok I see,  so a taskbar widget or something to replace the
> > manager.  I thought they lost their minds for a second. My
> > immediate thought was what about attaching drives, and seeing if
> > updates available?  Joanna addressed all my concerns but I'm gonna
> > have to wait and see what happens with this.   Hopefully it doesn't
> > turn out to be more confusing then the manager.
>
> It is a miscalculation. How about the words "we must make Qubes user
> friendly for all users non IT advanced" and release Qubes without
> manager? :(
>
> Maybe, widgets is not a good idea, but Qubes Manager is one of the
> important part that make Qubes useful to manage all vms with mouse.
> Some UX to old one QM + start menu links to right mouse action and it
> will be amazing.
>
>
Well, I never use the start menu on the left lower side of the screen
because it is too complicated, too many items and needs customization that
I am too lazy to do or have better things to do. I do everything with the
Qubes Manager that is so well organized and compact. I am afraid that the
new arrangement may make things more difficult to find for a new user since
items are spread over different buttons/places.

I would suggest to mitigate this risk putting links to the other places on
the widget/window that opens when you click on one of them. You can
separate things, but better put links to find them again.

Also I imagine that somewhere I'll find the list of VMs. There please
1. keep the "run command in VM" choice and
2. add something new: the chance to show only preferred VM

The first is very important to avoid using the start button.
The second is important to simplify the view and speed up the most common
routines

Cooloutac made me smile telling of his mother and family using Qubes.  I
had my wife using Qubes for some years, but recently she rised up against
Qubes telling that it is too complicated for her to be able to master it
without help. She wanted a Mac.  Really it is impossible to maintain Qubes
without the CLI and this makes it beyond limits for most people.  But
perhaps if we are able to find a stable architecture and then Qubes matures
enough, this may change. But we are not there yet.
Best
Fran

>
>
> - --
> Regards
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
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> -END PGP SIGNATURE-
>
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Re: [qubes-users] Re: Qubes OS 4.0 first release candidate (rc1) has been released!

2017-08-02 Thread Eva Star
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA256

On 08/02/2017 03:04 AM, cooloutac wrote:

> oh ok I see,  so a taskbar widget or something to replace the
> manager.  I thought they lost their minds for a second. My
> immediate thought was what about attaching drives, and seeing if
> updates available?  Joanna addressed all my concerns but I'm gonna
> have to wait and see what happens with this.   Hopefully it doesn't
> turn out to be more confusing then the manager.

It is a miscalculation. How about the words "we must make Qubes user
friendly for all users non IT advanced" and release Qubes without
manager? :(

Maybe, widgets is not a good idea, but Qubes Manager is one of the
important part that make Qubes useful to manage all vms with mouse.
Some UX to old one QM + start menu links to right mouse action and it
will be amazing.



- -- 
Regards
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[qubes-users] Re: Qubes OS 4.0 first release candidate (rc1) has been released!

2017-08-02 Thread tmc
On Wednesday, August 2, 2017 at 2:45:30 PM UTC-7, tmc wrote:
> > We have just released Qubes 4.0-rc1:
> > 
> > https://www.qubes-os.org/news/2017/07/31/qubes-40-rc1/
> 
> On a thinkpad x1, after removing  iommu=no-igfx I got to 
> initial-setup-graphical but that is failing on "qubes-prefs default-template 
> fedora-25" with qubesadmin.exc.QubesVMNotFoundError: "No such domain: 
> "fedora-25"'.
> 
> I see a qubesd warning a little before:
> 
> WARNING: Sum of all thin volume sizes (226.01 Gib) exceeds the size of thin 
> pool qubes_dom0/pool00 and the size of the whole volume group (222.57 GiB)!
> 
> perhaps related.

FWIW: setup completed successfully after a re-install.

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[qubes-users] Re: Qubes OS 4.0 first release candidate (rc1) has been released!

2017-08-02 Thread tmc
> We have just released Qubes 4.0-rc1:
> 
> https://www.qubes-os.org/news/2017/07/31/qubes-40-rc1/

On a thinkpad x1, after removing  iommu=no-igfx I got to 
initial-setup-graphical but that is failing on "qubes-prefs default-template 
fedora-25" with qubesadmin.exc.QubesVMNotFoundError: "No such domain: 
"fedora-25"'.

I see a qubesd warning a little before:

WARNING: Sum of all thin volume sizes (226.01 Gib) exceeds the size of thin 
pool qubes_dom0/pool00 and the size of the whole volume group (222.57 GiB)!

perhaps related.

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[qubes-users] Re: Qubes OS 4.0 first release candidate (rc1) has been released!

2017-08-02 Thread travis
> Hello,
> 
> We have just released Qubes 4.0-rc1:

On a thinkpad x1 I proceeded past the iommu=no-igfx issue but then the 
initial-setup-graphical helper fails on execing "qubes-prefs default-template 
fedora-25" with qubesadmin.exc.QubesVMNotFoundError: 'No such domain: 
"fedora-25"'

Subsequent retires also fail, (example: "Configuring TemplateVM 
tmp-tmp-tmp-fedora-25").

I continued by opted out of initial setup but I figured I'd report. Happy to 
share any relevant logs.

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[qubes-users] Re: Qubes OS 4.0 first release candidate (rc1) has been released!

2017-08-02 Thread turboacan
Have successful fresh install on T430

>Removing iommu=no-igfx from
>the Xen command line fixed it

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Re: [qubes-users] Re: Qubes OS 4.0 first release candidate (rc1) has been released!

2017-08-01 Thread cooloutac
On Tuesday, August 1, 2017 at 7:53:45 PM UTC-4, Jean-Philippe Ouellet wrote:
> On Tue, Aug 1, 2017 at 7:46 PM, cooloutac  wrote:
> > am I reading this right?  There is no qubes-manager in 4.0? Does that mean 
> > everything must be done in a terminal?  Tell me I read that wrong lol.
> 
> tl;dr - https://github.com/QubesOS/qubes-issues/issues/2132

oh ok I see,  so a taskbar widget or something to replace the manager.  I 
thought they lost their minds for a second. My immediate thought was what about 
attaching drives, and seeing if updates available?  Joanna addressed all my 
concerns but I'm gonna have to wait and see what happens with this.   Hopefully 
it doesn't turn out to be more confusing then the manager.

Right now my mother and family are able to use qubes no problem with no 
terminal actions required.  none at all. I don't know why that shocks some 
people when I tell them.   I hope that remains the same becvause they wouldn't 
be using Qubes without it.

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Re: [qubes-users] Re: Qubes OS 4.0 first release candidate (rc1) has been released!

2017-08-01 Thread Jean-Philippe Ouellet
On Tue, Aug 1, 2017 at 7:46 PM, cooloutac  wrote:
> am I reading this right?  There is no qubes-manager in 4.0? Does that mean 
> everything must be done in a terminal?  Tell me I read that wrong lol.

tl;dr - https://github.com/QubesOS/qubes-issues/issues/2132

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[qubes-users] Re: Qubes OS 4.0 first release candidate (rc1) has been released!

2017-08-01 Thread cooloutac
am I reading this right?  There is no qubes-manager in 4.0? Does that mean 
everything must be done in a terminal?  Tell me I read that wrong lol.

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Re: [qubes-users] Re: Qubes OS 4.0 first release candidate (rc1) has been released!

2017-08-01 Thread Marek Marczykowski-Górecki
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA256

On Tue, Aug 01, 2017 at 12:42:01PM -0700, mikihonz...@gmail.com wrote:
> Some bugs, one pretty deal breaking:

Thanks for the report.

> If I remove an application from the appmenu, I am unable to set it again. 
> More specifically I can set it in the VM-settings, but it won't show up in 
> the Appmenu again. 
> The color of a VM can be changed, but again this is not reflected in the 
> Appmenu. The VM itself (the running apps) have the correct window color.

Created ticket for this:
https://github.com/QubesOS/qubes-issues/issues/2952
You can see there for a workaround.

> Overall performance is OK, starting a Fedora VM takes longer than usual, 
> about 1min. Work VM (not app) didn't start when I selected the chromium app 
> from the appmenu. I had to start the VM from cli and then I could start 
> Chromium. 

That's weird, did you get any error? 

> The Qubes Manager is greatly missed! Especially the backup-restore. I tried 
> to restore VMs from 3.2 which didn't work at all:
> First it showed a lot of my VMs with the prefix "disps" ? (The backup had 
> only templates and 2 AppVms).

This is because how 4.0 deals with different DispVM settings. To restore
setting of 3.2 as much as possible, it create dispvm for each netvm used
there.

> I had to exclude -x a lot of Vms, honestly a pain when I just wanted one 
> important VM to restore, 

Instead of excluding, you can list VMs to include, just after backup
path.

> but got several python errors STDOUT and read errors. Restoring all was the 
> same and I had a list with 20 broken VMs, no apps in their menu, starting 
> gave libxl error. I used verbose and the 2 ignore options.

Do you have those messages saved somewhere? That would be really useful
to track down the issue...

> Removing them with cli, all a bit tedious ;(
> 
> Finally, If someone knows how to create a VM for iso booting from CLI I would 
> greatly appreciate a short info here. 

This is a missing part...
https://github.com/QubesOS/qubes-issues/issues/2951

> Looking forward to some docs/explanation on the changed qvm* tools since we 
> are now supposed to do it from the command line. 

There will be separate post about it, but see below.

> E.g. How to make net/proxy/app VM (qvm-create has some classes now...?) 

This one is possible also from GUI - in main menu you have "Create Qubes
VM" option and there you have "provides network" option which allow you
to create net/proxy VM.

> qvm-prefs options (kernel boot extern/intern and netvm settings), 

There is qvm-prefs --help-properties, which shows details about each
property.

> changes with LVM pools(? there was a option --boot-root-from-file?) , booting 
> VM from iso file etc.

See above...

- -- 
Best Regards,
Marek Marczykowski-Górecki
Invisible Things Lab
A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
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Re: [qubes-users] Re: Qubes OS 4.0 first release candidate (rc1) has been released!

2017-08-01 Thread Marek Marczykowski-Górecki
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA256

On Mon, Jul 31, 2017 at 01:10:08PM -0700, miki wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> HVM Standalone option is greyed out. Also the --cdrom option no longer exists 
> with the qvm-start command. Does anyone know if this is related to some 
> Stubdom changes/problems and will be supported again in the final release?

This is something that will be fixed. See here:
https://github.com/QubesOS/qubes-issues/issues/2951

- -- 
Best Regards,
Marek Marczykowski-Górecki
Invisible Things Lab
A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
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Re: [qubes-users] Re: Qubes OS 4.0 first release candidate (rc1) has been released!

2017-08-01 Thread tiopaul1958 via qubes-users
Why not include the Qubes Manager?  It's a good simple tool, and those who wish 
to use the CLI instead would still be free to do so.  

Thanks for all the work on 4.0 BTW.  And 3.2.  And 3.1 ...

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Re: [qubes-users] Re: Qubes OS 4.0 first release candidate (rc1) has been released!

2017-08-01 Thread f . tuttmann
Am Montag, 31. Juli 2017 22:12:06 UTC+2 schrieb PR:
> Hello,
> 
> 
> 
> Am 31.07.2017 9:42 nachm. schrieb  :
> 
> 
> I was able to restore all of my VMs via CLI but after restoring I couldn't 
> start any VM.
> 
> Will downgrade to 3.2 and will wait for final release of 4.0 and I hope that 
> this will then be fixed.
> 
> 
> Of course you can go straight back to 3.2 but as this is release candidate 
> feedback could be helpful.
> What happens when you start one of the AppVMs from the CLI?
> Output/Error messages?
> 
> 
> Have you tried to launch a template VM also, not only the AppVMs?
> 
> 
> - PhR

I can't start any VM (AppVM & Template VM) even the Template VM that was 
created freshly with 4.0 installation can't start.

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Re: [qubes-users] Re: Qubes OS 4.0 first release candidate (rc1) has been released!

2017-07-31 Thread 'P R' via qubes-users
Hello,

Am 31.07.2017 9:42 nachm. schrieb :


I was able to restore all of my VMs via CLI but after restoring I couldn't
start any VM.
Will downgrade to 3.2 and will wait for final release of 4.0 and I hope
that this will then be fixed.


Of course you can go straight back to 3.2 but as this is release candidate
feedback could be helpful.
What happens when you start one of the AppVMs from the CLI?
Output/Error messages?

Have you tried to launch a template VM also, not only the AppVMs?

- PhR

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[qubes-users] Re: Qubes OS 4.0 first release candidate (rc1) has been released!

2017-07-31 Thread miki

Hi,
HVM Standalone option is greyed out. Also the --cdrom option no longer exists 
with the qvm-start command. Does anyone know if this is related to some Stubdom 
changes/problems and will be supported again in the final release?

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Re: [qubes-users] Re: Qubes OS 4.0 first release candidate (rc1) has been released!

2017-07-31 Thread f . tuttmann
Am Montag, 31. Juli 2017 20:37:14 UTC+2 schrieb PR:
> Hello,
> 
> 
> 
> Am 31.07.2017 8:09 nachm. schrieb  :
> 
> I don't like that Qubes Manager was removed.
> 
> 
> 
> I can understand that this might feel strange, but after getting used to it 
> you can do anything (even more than with Qubes Manager) from the command 
> line/CLI.
> 
> 
> As far as I have understand, the option is there that someone can program a 
> Qubes GUI, but this is not in scope of the Qubes Core Team, which seem ro be 
> focussed more on the "real"/difficult Qubes stuff.
> I think this is a good decision, but having something like a "legacy" Qubes 
> Manager for Newbies might be helpful for beginners.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I am also looking for an icon for Backup/Restore.
> 
> 
> You can do backup and restores from the CLI (at least on Qubes 3.2) and I am 
> sure that this can also be done in Qubes 4 RC1.
> In dom0:
> qubes-backup-restore --help
> ... will tell you exactly what you need to do.
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  As long as I can't find this option I can't restore my VMs and this release 
> is useless for me.
> 
> 
> Have you tried to do a restore via CLI?
> If you run into problems, just tell us where exactly the problem is and we'll 
> figure it out.
> 
> 
> I'll download RC1 this evening and will also restore my Qubes 3.2 VMs.
> I can then update this post with a short how-to.
> 
> 
> - PhR

I was able to restore all of my VMs via CLI but after restoring I couldn't 
start any VM.
Will downgrade to 3.2 and will wait for final release of 4.0 and I hope that 
this will then be fixed.

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Re: [qubes-users] Re: Qubes OS 4.0 first release candidate (rc1) has been released!

2017-07-31 Thread 'P R' via qubes-users
Hello,

Am 31.07.2017 8:09 nachm. schrieb :

I don't like that Qubes Manager was removed.


I can understand that this might feel strange, but after getting used to it
you can do anything (even more than with Qubes Manager) from the command
line/CLI.

As far as I have understand, the option is there that someone can program a
Qubes GUI, but this is not in scope of the Qubes Core Team, which seem ro
be focussed more on the "real"/difficult Qubes stuff.
I think this is a good decision, but having something like a "legacy" Qubes
Manager for Newbies might be helpful for beginners.

I am also looking for an icon for Backup/Restore.


You can do backup and restores from the CLI (at least on Qubes 3.2) and I
am sure that this can also be done in Qubes 4 RC1.
In dom0:
qubes-backup-restore --help
... will tell you exactly what you need to do.

 As long as I can't find this option I can't restore my VMs and this
release is useless for me.


Have you tried to do a restore via CLI?
If you run into problems, just tell us where exactly the problem is and
we'll figure it out.

I'll download RC1 this evening and will also restore my Qubes 3.2 VMs.
I can then update this post with a short how-to.

- PhR

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[qubes-users] Re: Qubes OS 4.0 first release candidate (rc1) has been released!

2017-07-31 Thread f . tuttmann
Am Montag, 31. Juli 2017 13:43:28 UTC+2 schrieb Marek Marczykowski-Górecki:
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> Hash: SHA256
> 
> Hello,
> 
> We have just released Qubes 4.0-rc1:
> 
> https://www.qubes-os.org/news/2017/07/31/qubes-40-rc1/
> 
> - -- 
> Best Regards,
> Marek Marczykowski-Górecki
> Invisible Things Lab
> A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
> Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
> Version: GnuPG v2
> 
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I don't like that Qubes Manager was removed.
I am also looking for an icon for Backup/Restore. As long as I can't find this 
option I can't restore my VMs and this release is useless for me.

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